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#1050469 - 30/12/2011 07:41 ENSO Discussion 2012.
ColdFront Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 29/06/2008
Loc: Cairns
Ok so there are still a couple of days to go but I'd be interested to see what people's thoughts are on the likelihood of another nina next spring/summer.

Given the models backflipped significantly from an elnino prediction mid year back suddenly to a moderate lanina and as such this has played out is anyone seeing a similar pattern to the 50's besides me?

A third consecutive nina must be a better than 50 percent chance at the moment!

As for the start of 2012 I think this lanina is far from done yet. Too many people think that because we got a shed load of rain already by this time last summer that it must play out that way again.

I was expecting December to be wetter up this way so maybe January will be the wettest month again?
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#1050486 - 30/12/2011 09:02 Re: ENSO Discussion 2012. [Re: ColdFront]
Delly D Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 29/12/2010
Loc: Middlemount Qld
I was under the impression from reading this thread and BOM reports, that the Nina would not be strongest until the later months of summer. To have received higher than average rainfall within Australia up to date, is a good start to the summer season.
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Weather forecast for tonight: dark. Continued dark overnight, with widely scattered light by morning.
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#1050500 - 30/12/2011 10:02 Re: ENSO Discussion 2012. [Re: Delly D]
Bill Illis Online   content
Weather Freak

Registered: 11/07/2010

We might get another dip in January now according to the east Pacific upper-ocean temperature anomaly. This pretty consistently leads the ENSO by about 1 month.


http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/analysis_monitoring/ocean/weeklyenso/heat-last-year.gif


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#1050506 - 30/12/2011 10:17 Re: ENSO Discussion 2012. [Re: Bill Illis]
Vinnie Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 17/05/2006
Loc: Yeppoon (Mulambin) QLD , Pert...
What does that mean Bill ?
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#1050526 - 30/12/2011 11:32 Re: ENSO Discussion 2012. [Re: Vinnie]
_Johnno_ Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 8/11/2009
I think Bill is trying to say that this La Nina is streghening again, is that right Bill?

And Yes CF it is more than likely that next year we will at least stay Cool/Neutral and may get a 3rd La Nina... Can't see an El Nino happening at all... 2013 is more likely to be an El Nino Year

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#1050549 - 30/12/2011 13:16 Re: ENSO Discussion 2012. [Re: _Johnno_]
Brett Guy Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 5/10/2010
Loc: Bently Park, Cairns
I would not be surprised at all. Everything has been pointing to the fact that we are seeing the wetter part of the fairly regular ENSO cycle. Very similar to the 50's, 70's, 90's. Obviously some of these events take only a couple if years and some may go for several but it is a definite pattern. Whatever the outcome it will certainly be interesting to see what happens(and just how it is all blamed on AGW-shoulld be a laugh)

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#1050590 - 30/12/2011 16:13 Re: ENSO Discussion 2012. [Re: Brett Guy]
Chris Stumer Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 28/01/2010
Loc: Kingaroy
has anyone checked on the status of the MJO? I just saw on a post that the models are predicting a very weak MJO passing through northern Australia next month but with no activity which I'm finding it's highly unusual as we're in a La Nina pattern, one would expect a poor northern wet season to occur during El Nino.


Edited by Chris Stumer (30/12/2011 16:18)
Edit Reason: more info

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#1050644 - 30/12/2011 20:04 Re: ENSO Discussion 2012. [Re: Chris Stumer]
paulcirrus Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 8/08/2011
Loc: Brisbane - Windsor
unfortunately ( because i love rain ) we may be getting one of those La Nina's which at %40 of the time are dry and not overly wet ( this happens in se qld ) So i wouldn't expect too much rain except west of the downs where i think they will continue to see great rains.

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#1050929 - 31/12/2011 23:02 Re: ENSO Discussion 2012. [Re: paulcirrus]
Southern Oracle Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 31/01/2011
Loc: Southern Victoria
Don't Look at GFS Extended , If you guys think your Dry SEQ Summer will continue for another full month .....
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#1051042 - 1/01/2012 13:00 Re: ENSO Discussion 2012. [Re: Southern Oracle]
Chris Stumer Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 28/01/2010
Loc: Kingaroy
let us hope that we do get some rain, if I was a farmer I would be spewing, in the tropics we're seeing a pattern more typical of September or October, with the monsoon failing for this month, and the flooding in the Phillipines may be a sign of the ITCZ having shifted north, the US is experiencing a snow drought, when the La Nina should be bumping up the snow totals, I wonder what's going on?

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#1051054 - 1/01/2012 13:55 Re: ENSO Discussion 2012. [Re: Chris Stumer]
jilleroo2 Offline
Cloud Gazer

Registered: 2/03/2011
Happy New years alland hope its a wet one of course! Chris we're handfeeding a heap of cows here in CW Qld. There's been good storms around in recent weeks but they won't fall on us - we havent had an inch fall in over two years - all our dams are long dry. We're waiting for a good wet season to kick in and hopefully it will. Oracle - we look at GFS 180hr map...where do I find one that extends further than that. Even so, how accurate would it be...

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#1051057 - 1/01/2012 14:00 Re: ENSO Discussion 2012. [Re: jilleroo2]
jilleroo2 Offline
Cloud Gazer

Registered: 2/03/2011
just read where you have to be on weatherzone silver to get GFS extended!

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#1051076 - 1/01/2012 15:33 Re: ENSO Discussion 2012. [Re: jilleroo2]
ROM Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 29/01/2007
Loc: Horsham in western Victoria
The BOM guys have told me that the ECMWF models [ European Centre for Medium range Weather Forecasting ] are about the best of the forecasting models around at the moment.

http://www.yr.no/

Enter your location / nearest town etc in the search box; [ You may be given a list of locations to choose from ]

You then have a quick and dirty update in "Long Term".
More detail in "Hour by Hour"

Or the map;
In the "Rest of the World" box, 3 hrs runs only go out to some 48 hours so I deselect 3 hrs and select 6 Hrs for the full run consistency of the maps

The maps will take you out to about 240 hours ;eg; today's run "1st jan 02;00 > 10 jan 1700

The ECMWF only provides precipitation and some other info to the participation national weather Authorities and this info is not normally available to the public.
The Norwegians have a law that what the public pays for through their taxes the public gets to see for no charge hence the ECMWF's precipitation and etc is available on the http://www.yr.no/

You may also find some info in the ECMWF's ; http://www.ecmwf.int/products/forecasts/d/charts

The "Seasonal Forecast" can be of some use.

Medium Range Forecasts > Deterministic Forecast > Australia uses a rotating series of forecasts and if you follow it , you will get lucky and get a 240 hr precipitation forecast as the various forecasts are run through over the days.

JMA has one month and three month prediction maps in generalised terms; http://ds.data.jma.go.jp/tcc/tcc/products/model/

The American Navy's Monterey based ; Fleet Numerical Meteorology and Oceanography Center uses the 240 hr NOGAPs model;
http://www.usno.navy.mil/FNMOC/ > WXMAP > Tropical Areas > Oceania > NGP / GFS > 6 hr precipitation rate

Beyond 240 hours or maybe even about 180 hours, the tiniest of incorrect inputs into the models when they start their runs or even a normally very low level and undetectable fault in the computer hardware or software after millions of calculations can lead to huge variations in the final projected forecast.
It is a function of Chaos Theory in the computer where after a huge number of computations the tiniest of changes from either the initial input or even from the lack of accuracy limited by the decimal points used which is how the Chaos Theory was first detected and the theory developed, can start to create large deviations in output runs from and between the same model.

This why the meteorologists are still essential and still need to have the final word as they know from their previous experience and training whether some computer scenarios are just ridiculous or maybe are possible or most likely.
I have been told by Met persons that these arguments can get pretty heated on what modeled forecasts to believe or how they should be modified to get closer to the potential reality of the developing weather situation.

Bigger and faster computers will extend the forecast period by a very short few tens of hours but basically, if we want to see longer but still accurate forecasts the underlying knowledge behind global meteorology must be further researched and increased as faster computers without that better meteorology knowledge merely leads to increases in the speed of making the wrong forecasts.

And a bit on Chaos Theory and why it is the limiting factor in weather [ and climate ] forecasting

Chaos Theory for Beginners
Quote:
How Chaos Theory was born and why.

It all started to dawn on people when in 1960 a man named Edward Lorentz created a weather-model on his computer at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Lorentz' weather model consisted of an extensive array of complex formulas that kicked numbers around like an old pig skin. Clouds rose and winds blew, heat scourged or cold came creeping up the breeches.

Colleagues and students marveled over the machine because it never seemed to repeat a sequence; it was really quite like the real weather. Some even hoped that Lorentz had built the ultimate weather-predictor and if the input parameters were chosen identical to those of the real weather howling outside the Maclaurin Building, it could mimic earth's atmosphere and be turned into a precise prophet.

But then one day Lorentz decided to cheat a little bit. A while earlier he had let the program run on certain parameters to generate a certain weather pattern and he wanted to take a better look at the outcome. But instead of letting the program run from the initial settings and calculate the outcome, Lorentz decided to start half way down the sequence by inputting the values that the computer had come up with during the earlier run.

The computer that Lorentz was working with calculated the various parameters with an accuracy of six decimals. But the printout gave these numbers with a three decimal accuracy. So in stead of inputting certain numbers (like wind, temperature and stuff like that) as accurate as the computer had them, Lorentz settled for approximations; 5.123456 became 5.123 (for instance). And that puny little inaccuracy appeared to amplify and cause the entire system to swing out of whack.
Exactly how important is all this? Well, in the case of weather systems, it's very important. Weather is the total behavior of all the molecules that make up earth's atmosphere. And in the previous chapters we've established that a tiny particle can not be accurately pin-pointed, due to the Uncertainty Principle! And this is the sole reason why weather forecasts begin to be bogus around a day or two into the future. We can't get an accurate fix on the present situation, just a mere approximation, and so our ideas about the weather are doomed to fall into misalignment in a matter of hours, and completely into the nebulas of fantasy within days. Nature will not let herself be predicted.

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#1051082 - 1/01/2012 15:41 Re: ENSO Discussion 2012. [Re: ROM]
Chris Stumer Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 28/01/2010
Loc: Kingaroy
A butterfly flapping it's wings in Brazil can cause a tornado in Texas, I hope the La Nina influenced wet season does kick in soon, at the moment the signs are not good, most places have had good falls, but the rain hasn't been falling where it's needed, but then again every La Nina and El Nino event is different.

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#1051125 - 1/01/2012 18:16 Re: ENSO Discussion 2012. [Re: Chris Stumer]
jilleroo2 Offline
Cloud Gazer

Registered: 2/03/2011
Thanks for that ROM! Great reading. I got onto the yr. no. site easily, much appreciated.
I couldnt help but note the wild fluctuations in the temperature though - 30 degs one day, 36 the next etc. I read where the MJO is strengthening Chris, I hope that's right.

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#1051126 - 1/01/2012 18:20 Re: ENSO Discussion 2012. [Re: jilleroo2]
_Johnno_ Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 8/11/2009
Chris... You have repeated yourself a dozen times in the past week we get the Picture! That its dry at your place/area


Edited by _Johnno_ (1/01/2012 18:21)

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#1051129 - 1/01/2012 18:29 Re: ENSO Discussion 2012. [Re: _Johnno_]
ColdFront Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 29/06/2008
Loc: Cairns
He's right about the butterfly flapping comment though. Many forget just how much chaos is involved in our weather and that is why not every event is the same. We certainly won't see a repeat of last year but we didn't have the ridging up the Queensland coast right up to PNG last year. I'm still fairly confident we will see flood rains in Queensland and NSW however before this summer is over.
_________________________
"Politicians and nappies should be changed often and for the same reason"

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#1051217 - 2/01/2012 09:21 Re: ENSO Discussion 2012. [Re: ColdFront]
SingTheSorrow Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 15/03/2011
Loc: Currajong
The pattern we are seeing is still very similar to the 2008/2009 summer, in which there was also a decrease in rainfall along the eastern seaboard north of the Queensland border and an increase in frontal trough associated rainfall through central Australia. Looking at rainfall percentages for December 2011 shows that, while there were areas receiving below average rainfall, there are vast areas in which rainfall was well above average. The current heatwave in southern Australia has parallels with the January 2009 heatwave.

Are we in an atypical climate pattern? Yes, and it is similar to other weak to moderate La Nina events.

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#1051218 - 2/01/2012 09:25 Re: ENSO Discussion 2012. [Re: SingTheSorrow]
jilleroo2 Offline
Cloud Gazer

Registered: 2/03/2011
I don't mean to sound like a whinger either Johnno - just looking for some signs of hope in a fairly desperate situation. I greatly enjoy reading the boards, keep up the great work!

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#1051242 - 2/01/2012 10:56 Re: ENSO Discussion 2012. [Re: SingTheSorrow]
CoastalStorm22 Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 10/07/2006
Loc: Double Bay, Sydney, NSW
Originally Posted By: SingTheSorrow
The pattern we are seeing is still very similar to the 2008/2009 summer, in which there was also a decrease in rainfall along the eastern seaboard north of the Queensland border and an increase in frontal trough associated rainfall through central Australia. Looking at rainfall percentages for December 2011 shows that, while there were areas receiving below average rainfall, there are vast areas in which rainfall was well above average. The current heatwave in southern Australia has parallels with the January 2009 heatwave.

Are we in an atypical climate pattern? Yes, and it is similar to other weak to moderate La Nina events.


Not wanting to sound rude STS, but how dose the current heatwave have parallels to the 2009 one? If i remember correctly NQ was getting smashed with heavy rainfall at the same time as we were baking in the dry heat, looks quite dry up in QLD at the moment, so i'm not really seeing the connection?

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