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#1126589 - 14/09/2012 08:29 Re: Antarctic Sea Ice [Re: Bill Illis]
bd bucketingdown Offline
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Registered: 07/02/2008
Posts: 6033
Loc: Eastern A/Hills SA
I am just posting interesting items on the Antarctic Ice which in ther main shows a healthy static or slightly increasing trend.
I generally do not have time to go into finer detail(like others who seem to have much time on their hands...lucky folk!) because of my many agricultural weather forecasting commitments...sorry.


Edited by bd bucketingdown (14/09/2012 08:30)

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#1126927 - 16/09/2012 20:19 Re: Antarctic Sea Ice [Re: bd bucketingdown]
ROM Offline
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Registered: 29/01/2007
Posts: 6628
The science just keeps rolling right on and as usual the findings don't, as is usual, fit the preconceived beliefs at all.

From Svalbard or what was known as Spitzbergen in times past.

Svalbard is that Norwegian Island way up in the Arctic and it is also the site of the world's "survival" seed deposit, the "Millenium Seed Project Vault" where a good scientist friend of mine was tasked by the Australian government last year, with the depositing of Australia's contribution of our most important basic crop seeds into the international collection in the Millennium Seed Project Vault.

As usual the take home message here is the incredible adaptability of life on this earth, an adaptability that is always extremely underestimated by any catastrophists whether of the climate warming or of any other conceivable and similar catastrophic doomsday cult.

Reduced sea ice – less consequences than anticipated?

As quoted ;
Recent data show a historical and dramatic decline in the Arctic summer sea ice extent. This has believed to be bad news for marine organisms living under the ice. But new research show that perhaps some of the species actually have adapted to minimal ice cover in summer. The scientists call their hypothesis the “Nemo hypothesis”.

The scientists point to an unresolved paradox concerning the evolution and current distribution of ice associated organisms within the Arctic Ocean: How is it possible to retain a large and viable population of organisms totally dependent on sea ice when their habitat is annually reduced by up to 75-80% through melting and the Transpolar Drift through the Fram Strait?

&
We suggest that a until now unknown downward vertical migration of egg carrying animals, followed by pole ward transport in deep ocean currents is an adaptive trait of ice fauna that both increases survival during ice free periods of the year and enables recolonization of sea ice when they ascend within the Arctic Ocean, Berge says.

From an evolutionary perspective, this may have been a successful adaptive strategy in a more seasonally ice-covered Arctic, as experienced several times during the past 12,000 years, some reports indicate that the Arctic Ocean was void of summer sea ice as late as 8000 years ago.

The "Nemo hypothesis"
The scientists refer to the hypothesis as the "Nemo hypothesis" based on an analogy to the Disney movie in which Nemo’s father use deep ocean currents as a vector for transportation.



- Our hypothesis refer to a similar mechanisms, that enable ice-associated organisms that are released from melting sea ice to actively (or passively) move into depth layers where the northernmost branch of the Gulf Stream System will effectively transport them back into the Arctic Ocean. Previously, these organisms were generally considered to be passively exported either out the Fram Strait or down to depths when released from melting sea ice – either which, they were considered as being doomed and lost from their habitat on which they depend to survive, according to Berge.

Through the Nemo hypothesis, the scientists offer a new and exciting perspective that, although still based on a limited dataset, might change the perception of the ice associated organisms and their future in an Arctic Ocean potentially void of summer sea ice within the next few decades.[end]

- Our findings not only provide a basic new understanding of the adaptations and biology of the ice associated organisms within the Arctic Ocean, it may ultimately change the perception of ice fauna as a biota imminently threatened by the predicted disappearance of perennial sea ice, Berge explains.


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#1126933 - 16/09/2012 20:46 Re: Antarctic Sea Ice [Re: ROM]
CeeBee Offline
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hehe - what has this got to do with the Antarctic sea ice ROM?
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#1126935 - 16/09/2012 20:47 Re: Antarctic Sea Ice [Re: CeeBee]
ROM Offline
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Registered: 29/01/2007
Posts: 6628
OK wrong thread!

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#1127818 - 21/09/2012 12:50 Re: Antarctic Sea Ice [Re: ROM]
_Johnno_ Offline
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#1127960 - 21/09/2012 20:04 Re: Antarctic Sea Ice [Re: _Johnno_]
crikey Offline
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Registered: 01/02/2011
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Ice reveals polar temperature seesaw ( 2006)

extract
"The findings suggest that as Antarctica gradually warms, Greenland cools. Likewise, as soon as Greenland's temperature starts warming up, temperatures in Antarctica start to fall. And that's not just the case with temperature spikes, Fischer says. "Even the smaller wiggles are directly related," he says. This change is "astoundingly regular."

Climate models suggest that the roughly inverse relationship the EPICA team observed is the result of a large change in heat in the Atlantic, Fischer says. The global pattern of currents known as the ocean conveyor belt shuttles warm, salty water northward from the Southern Hemisphere up along the coast of North America and around Europe, keeping the climate mild in these areas. As it carries heat northward to the North Atlantic, it depletes the South Atlantic of heat, thus warming Greenland and cooling Antarctica. Similarly, a slowdown in the strength of the currents could also cause a so-called positive feedback in the Southern Hemisphere: Instead of the warm water moving northward, it would stay in the south and warm up Antarctica."
Article
http://www.agiweb.org/geotimes/nov06/WebExtra111006.html


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Conveyor belt shutdown not imminent
( this article talks about how greenland melt affects ocean current circulation and weather in the Nth hemisphere
http://www.agiweb.org/geotimes/nov06/NN_ConveyorBelt.html
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How is the land Antartic ice going? Is it still decreasing?
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#1128013 - 22/09/2012 08:51 Re: Antarctic Sea Ice [Re: crikey]
CeeBee Offline
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But Antarctic sea ice is growing!

It's a sure thing that when Arctic sea ice hits new record lows, global warming contrarians will attempt to draw attention away from the Arctic by talking about sea ice around Antarctica. A case in point is an article that appeared in Forbes on Wednesday by James Taylor. Mr. Taylor wrote, "Antarctic sea ice set another record this past week, with the most amount of ice ever recorded on day 256 of the calendar year (September 12 of this leap year)...Amusingly, page after page of Google News results for Antarctic sea ice record show links to news articles breathlessly spreading fear and warning of calamity because Arctic sea ice recently set a 33-year low. Sea ice around one pole is shrinking while sea ice around another pole is growing. This sure sounds like a global warming crisis to me."

This analysis is highly misleading, as it ignores the fact that Antarctica has actually been warming in recent years. In fact, the oceans surrounding Antarctica have warmed faster than the global trend, and there has been accelerated melting of ocean-terminating Antarctic glaciers in recent years as a result of warmer waters eating away the glaciers. There is great concern among scientists about the stability of two glaciers in West Antarctica (the Pine Island and Thwaites Glaciers) due the increase in ocean temperatures. These glaciers may suffer rapid retreats that will contribute significantly to global sea level rise.

Despite the warming going on in Antarctica, there has been a modest long-term increase in Antarctic sea ice in recent decades. So, how can more sea ice form on warmer ocean waters? As explained in an excellent article at skepticalscience.com , the reasons are complex. One reason is that the Southern Ocean consists of a layer of cold water near the surface and a layer of warmer water below. Water from the warmer layer rises up to the surface, melting sea ice. However, as air temperatures warm, the amount of rain and snowfall also increases. This freshens the surface waters, leading to a surface layer less dense than the saltier, warmer water below. The layers become more stratified and mix less. Less heat is transported upwards from the deeper, warmer layer. Hence less sea ice is melted (Zhang 2007). As the planet continues to warm, climate models predict that the growth in Antarctic sea ice will reverse, as the waters become too warm to support so much sea ice.

link
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#1128015 - 22/09/2012 08:56 Re: Antarctic Sea Ice [Re: CeeBee]
CeeBee Offline
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Registered: 25/02/2012
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Warming Oceans Will Start Massive Changes In Antarctic Ice Sheet

Massive and rapid changes in the Antarctic ice sheet are possible because of the action of fast-flowing and narrow glaciers, leading to rapid ice-sheet decay and sea-level rise, according to a just released study.

It’s now been revealed in more detail than ever before “how warming waters in the Southern Ocean are connected intimately with the movement of massive ice-sheets deep in the Antarctic interior.”
“It has long been known that narrow glaciers on the edge of the Antarctica act as discrete arteries termed ice streams, draining the interior of the ice sheet,” says Dr Chris Fogwill, an author of the study and an ARC Future Fellow with the UNSW Climate Change Research Centre.

“However, our results have confirmed recent observations suggesting that ocean warming can trigger increased flow of ice through these narrow corridors. This can cause inland sectors of the ice-sheet — some larger than the state of Victoria — to become thinner and flow faster.”

Here are more details from the University of New South Wales news release about the research:

The researchers, led by Dr Nicholas Golledge from Victoria University of Wellington, New Zealand, tested high-resolution model simulations against reconstructions of the Antarctic ice sheet from 20,000 years ago, during the last glacial maximum.
They used a new model, capable of resolving responses to ice-streams and other fine- scale dynamic features that interact over the entire ice sheet. This had not previously been possible with existing models. They then used this data to analyse the effects of a warming ocean over time.

The results showed that while glacier acceleration triggered by ocean warming is relatively localized, the extent of the resultant ice-sheet thinning is far more widespread. This observation is particularly important in light of recently observed dynamic changes at the margins of Antarctica. It also highlighted areas that are more susceptible than others to changes in ocean temperatures.

The glaciers that responded most rapidly to warming oceans were found in the Weddell Sea, the Admundsen Sea, the central Ross Sea and in the Amery Trough.

The finding is important because of the enormous scale and potential impact the Antarctic ice sheets could have on sea-level rise if they shift rapidly, says Fogwill. “To get a sense of the scale, the Antarctic ice sheet is 3km deep – three times the height of the Blue Mountains in many areas – and it extends across an area that is equivalent to the distance between Perth and Sydney.

“Despite its potential impact, Antarctica’s effect on future sea level was not fully included in the last IPCC report because there was insufficient information about the behaviour of the ice sheet. This research changes that. This new, high-resolution modelling approach will be critical to improving future predictions of Antarctica’s contribution to sea level over the coming century and beyond.”

The research was just published in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

http://s.tt/1nVAd

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#1128103 - 22/09/2012 20:14 Re: Antarctic Sea Ice [Re: CeeBee]
bd bucketingdown Offline
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Registered: 07/02/2008
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Loc: Eastern A/Hills SA
And the Antarctic ice just keeps on growing and growing, no matter what they say!!!

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#1129738 - 30/09/2012 16:04 Re: Antarctic Sea Ice [Re: bd bucketingdown]
_Johnno_ Offline
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#1129771 - 30/09/2012 20:43 Re: Antarctic Sea Ice [Re: _Johnno_]
bd bucketingdown Offline
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Registered: 07/02/2008
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Loc: Eastern A/Hills SA
If this keeps up we will be connected by ice to Antarctic in 20 to 30 years(sarc)!

According to NOAA data, all time Antarctic sea ice extent record was set on Sept 22nd, 2012

Posted on September 29, 2012 by Anthony Watts

Cryosphere Today – Arctic Climate Research at the University of Illinois – Click the pic to view at source
At the blog “sunshine hours” it seems the Antarctic has set a new record. He writes:

As you may know, I have been using Cryosphere’s Antarctic Sea Ice Area data to show the record levels of Antarctic Sea Ice.

But I just found another data set, NOAA’s Sea Ice Extent here. (thanks to commenter HaroldW at the Blackboard)

And it turns out day 265 set an all time record, and then day 266 (Sept 22nd) broke that record. Days 265 through 270 are now the 6 highest Antarctic Sea Ice Extent’s of all time (in the satellite record)!

11 of the top 15 extents are now in 2012.

Anyone wonder why NOAA isn’t making a fuss about this?

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/09/29/ac...012/#more-71675

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#1129783 - 30/09/2012 21:27 Re: Antarctic Sea Ice [Re: bd bucketingdown]
CeeBee Offline
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Registered: 25/02/2012
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Winter sea ice around Antarctica (when insolation is at it’s minimum) has little effect on Global warming as apposed to record low sea ice in the Arctic, which does have an affect on temps.

The world is warming, total sea ice is shrinking, and, not incidentally, the reduction in Summer albedo is a strong feedback for further warming.
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#1129797 - 01/10/2012 00:28 Re: Antarctic Sea Ice [Re: CeeBee]
Bill Illis Offline
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Registered: 11/07/2010
Posts: 1003

For the Antarctic sea ice to be at a record high, the sea surface and air temperatures around Antarctica must also be the lowest in the satellite record.

I imagine winds and ocean currents have played some part but "temperatures" have to be below or near the coldest it has been since 1979.

Now remember, whaling and scientific expedition ships have "landed" on Antarctica as early as 1821. They were not using ice-breakers in those days so the summer ice could not have been much different than today. Even in 2012, it would have been difficult for a non-ice-breaker-type ship to reach land through the minimum ice (on February 23, 2012).

One of the coldest winter seasons ever in Antarctica. How can that be in global warming world, where polar amplification should have the poles increasing by twice the global average. Nada instead.


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CeeBee, Summer Albedo in the Arctic might have been a high or normal level in the Arctic this year. Cloud cover increased by something approaching 20 percentage points and clouds are close to half of the Albedo calculations in the Arctic (over half globally). Let's wait for what the actual data says. The preliminary raw numbers says reflected solar radiation increased by 5 W/m2 in August 2012 over August 2011

http://neo.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/Search.html?group=58

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#1129873 - 01/10/2012 16:51 Re: Antarctic Sea Ice [Re: CeeBee]
snafu Offline
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Registered: 27/06/2012
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Loc: Belmont, Lake Macquarie, NSW
Originally Posted By: CeeBee
Winter sea ice around Antarctica (when insolation is at it’s minimum) has little effect on Global warming as apposed to record low sea ice in the Arctic, which does have an affect on temps.

The world is warming, total sea ice is shrinking, and, not incidentally, the reduction in Summer albedo is a strong feedback for further warming.

CeeBee. You wouldn't happen to be KR who posts on WUWT by any chance?

From WUWT;
Quote:
KR says:
September 29, 2012 at 9:52 pm

I will agree with several of the posters that increasing Antarctic ice with warming is counter-intuitive, and that many researchers may have had different predictions. Nevertheless:

* The mechanism Manabe et al 1991 described fits the evidence – reduced vertical exchange due to a stronger halocline.
* Winter sea ice around Antarctica (when insolation is at it’s minimum) has little effect on global warming.
* Summer sea ice around Antarctica still melts back to <20% of the winter range.
* Total global sea ice is declining – any increases in Antarctic sea ice extent are dwarfed by Arctic reductions.

To put it bluntly – Antarctic sea ice increases do not contradict global warming (let alone the many other lines of evidence for that warming), and do not supply any sort of “Get Out Of Jail” card regarding the Arctic reduction. The world is warming, total sea ice is shrinking, and, not incidentally, the reduction in summer albedo is a strong feedback for further warming. Loud noises about small Antarctic winter sea ice increases notwithstanding… that’s just a distraction.

Or are you using other peoples comments (copy & paste)?
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We have about five more years at the outside to do something.
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43 years later...we're still here.

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#1129886 - 01/10/2012 18:46 Re: Antarctic Sea Ice [Re: snafu]
Brett Guy Offline
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Registered: 05/10/2010
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My vote goes for 'Cut and Paste'.
And by the way CEEBEE. Isn't it refered to as 'GLOBAL' warming. Shouldn't that therefore encompass the entire 'GLOBE'?

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#1129888 - 01/10/2012 18:56 Re: Antarctic Sea Ice [Re: Brett Guy]
CeeBee Offline
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Registered: 25/02/2012
Posts: 2637

Yeah, I was going to link to that comment but I embellished it a bit and didn't bother in the end.

Global warming is the rise in the Earth's average temperature. Some parts of the Globe will be hotter and some parts cooler, but on average temps Globally are warmer.
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#1129890 - 01/10/2012 19:08 Re: Antarctic Sea Ice [Re: CeeBee]
snafu Offline
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Registered: 27/06/2012
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Loc: Belmont, Lake Macquarie, NSW
Yep.....sure is.... smirk

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We have about five more years at the outside to do something.
Kenneth Watt, ecologist - Earth Day, 1970
43 years later...we're still here.

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#1129900 - 01/10/2012 19:48 Re: Antarctic Sea Ice [Re: snafu]
CeeBee Offline
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Registered: 25/02/2012
Posts: 2637


Look at how much higher CO2 is now compared to over the last 450,000 years.

Here's the webpage that snafu's image above is from. It's worth reading the article there for more info.

http://www.brighton73.freeserve.co.uk/gw/paleo/400000yrfig.htm
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#1129907 - 01/10/2012 20:15 Re: Antarctic Sea Ice [Re: CeeBee]
ROM Offline
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Registered: 29/01/2007
Posts: 6628
Ah! But look where the CO2 changes come. AFTER the changes in temperature.

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#1129912 - 01/10/2012 20:27 Re: Antarctic Sea Ice [Re: ROM]
snafu Offline
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Registered: 27/06/2012
Posts: 1437
Loc: Belmont, Lake Macquarie, NSW
And look where the temps are compared to ~120,000 years ago.........with less CO2
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We have about five more years at the outside to do something.
Kenneth Watt, ecologist - Earth Day, 1970
43 years later...we're still here.

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