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#1138951 - 08/11/2012 17:39 The live cattle trade
Greg Sorenson Offline
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Please post here for the topic of live cattle please, thanks, Greg
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#1168234 - 28/01/2013 18:10 Re: The live cattle trade [Re: Greg Sorenson]
adon Offline
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Hmmm thought people would have had opinions on this. Strange to see no comments. I for one support the trade. It is a vital market for our northern cattle producers and allows huge tracts of land to be used to feed people who need it. People can say that the cattle should be processed in Australia, however for all sorts of reasons this is just uneconomical to do. Pity though, it would mean thousands of jobs for Australians in an area that is screaming for population.

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#1168241 - 28/01/2013 18:14 Re: The live cattle trade [Re: adon]
Brett Guy Offline
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I personally don't. Bugger sending them elswhere live so they can be killed in a particular fashion. What a load of tripe. Process them here with our standards and give the jobs to Aussies.

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#1168471 - 28/01/2013 22:19 Re: The live cattle trade [Re: Brett Guy]
adon Offline
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If all things were equal mate I would agree but a lot of the people who are being fed by those cattle do not have a way of keeping the meat cool. Therefor frozen product would have to be pre packed in small family sized portions for people to buy and prepare straight away. This would drive our already very high processing costs well and truly above the affordability mark. They would simply buy elsewhere.

As for the standards they are kept in, do you buy a grain fed steak either at a restaurant or the supermarket? I find that far more cruel than the short term mistreatment a few animals have had. I have worked around feedlots and witnessed the cruelty these poor cattle go through in them. not in mistreatment by staff, by the behaviour of large number of stock who are confined and bored.

I also do not think that those videos are entirely legitimate. It must be noted, these animals Australia videos, are coming from an organisation that is opposed to the meat trade all together. The people in these abbituors are very poor and a hefty sum of cash (for them but a small amount for us)for some violence to a creature who is about to die anyway would be a a risk well worth taking. Some of the things done to those cattle is not only sickening, but makes working with them much harder. Why would you make your job harder unless there was some sort of incentive coming from behind the camera. If you look at the faces of some of the people carrying out the acts, they were looking back to the camera in a fashion that someone looking for direction would be doing. I would not for a second put it past these groups. "For the sake of many, the sacrifice of a few is justified" keep springing to mind.

While not condoning the treatment that the cattle have gone through in foreign meat works, do you really think that they will care if we don't want to sell them cattle? Or do you think that another country who exports cattle would care that the cattle are to killed to Australian standards? We are basically the only country in the world who demands that our stock are slaughtered to our standards even after we have sold them.

Yes it would be great to have a finished product sold so that all the possible value adding is on shore, but we don't do it with cotton, wool, iron ore and most other things we produce so why is it different with meat?


Edited by adon (28/01/2013 22:22)

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#1169271 - 31/01/2013 06:23 Re: The live cattle trade [Re: Brett Guy]
Andy Double U Offline
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Registered: 28/10/2006
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Originally Posted By: Brett Guy
I personally don't. Bugger sending them elswhere live so they can be killed in a particular fashion. What a load of tripe. Process them here with our standards and give the jobs to Aussies.


Did you know that there are small abbatoirs here that employ very similar practices here for religious reasons? Do some reading of Halal and Kosher killing practices and then take a stroll through a supermarket and take stock of how many meat products bare these labels these days.

Animals Australia are also guilty of negligence in my opinion. Not only have they left northern producers with massive reductions in income, but they are also partly responsible for the large numbers of cattle up north that have been dying of starvation. If those producers hadn't had such sudden and massive changes to export conditions, they would have been able to manage stock numbers better. As a livestock producer myself, I'm constantly looking two to three years down the track trying to set stocking rates in an effective fashion.

I'd love to cut the government support of these 'do gooders' overnight, without warning and watch the screaming then. Maybe then they would get some idea as to the terrible imposition they have placed other people in and might actually begin to work constructively on longer term solutions to what are actually quite delicate problems.

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#1169278 - 31/01/2013 07:58 Re: The live cattle trade [Re: Andy Double U]
adon Offline
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Well said Andy!

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#1169281 - 31/01/2013 08:21 Re: The live cattle trade [Re: adon]
Brett Guy Offline
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Registered: 05/10/2010
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Loc: Bently Park, Cairns
I do understand the concerns of graziers very well and don't hold anything against them for sending livestock overseas into an existing market but I do believe that market has to be changed. There is ALWAYS another market. I still don't believe we should pander to other religious or cultural beleifs(we wouldn't send dogs from the pound to Korea for them to eat would we?). If our meat killed our way isn't good enough then they should grow their own. The knee jerk reaction of a year or so ago was not the right way to go about it however and was just a typical political reaction to one bit of footage.

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#1169338 - 31/01/2013 12:41 Re: The live cattle trade [Re: Brett Guy]
SBT Offline
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My niece and her husband bought 1000 head of cattle that where destined for Indonesia but got held back and where in pretty poor condition by the time they bought them. It actually cost twice as much to frieght them from the NT to SW Queensland than the purchase price per head. Lucky for them they have been shipped to new grazing land that hasn't seen a herd on it for over 25 years so at the moment they are stacking on weight and are fit and healthy and some will be sent for slaughter in about 6 months. The rest will be used for breeding stock as a starting point for a new herd.

These beasts will be consumed all over Australia where no one will have a clue about the journeys they have been on. All they will see is a plate with meat on it. The same in Indonesia or any other country we send live beasts to. In the end all they see is affordable meat. Most people who eat this meat will have never tasted beef that has been hung for 3 to 6 weeks but are used to tough sinewy meat that was killed less than 12 hours before they bought it and would probably not buy prepacked meat because it would taste strange.

The main point I made back when the debate first staterd was that trying to enforce a humane/animal rights standard on people who think nothing of stepping over dead bodies of the fellow countrymen without a second glance. It is inmpossible to do so and trying to impose our standards on another country is not only naive but pretty silly and something these animal libbers can't get their heads around.

You may get a warm cuddly feeling "knowing" that the T Bone you are about to enjoy has had ear candling, coconut oil body massages and group therapy whilst in a commune for like minded free range bovines but I couldn't give a rats bum.

All I need to know is that it will taste OK, was slaughtered to Australian Standards and has been declared disease free and suitable for consumption. Anything else is just Waffle/PR/Spin to make you feel less guilty because you are eating an animal product.
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#1169474 - 31/01/2013 19:28 Re: The live cattle trade [Re: SBT]
Brett Guy Offline
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Registered: 05/10/2010
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Loc: Bently Park, Cairns
I am a rec fisho. Have been all my life annd will be untill the day I die. I catch and kill fish to eat them. I see nothing wrong with that. But I believe that fish has the right to a quick death and should be treated as humanely as possible. I cannot stand fishos that catch a fish and just throw it on the deck to bake and suffocate slowly. It's just wron. If I see someone do it then I let them know what I think. Not rudely. I just point out the flaws in their actions. The live cattle trade is no different. If we can make sure the animals are treated with respect then fine but if not then ban the trade. As you said SBT. Many of these countries seem to think nothing of human life so I can't see how we could improve their attitude towards animals.

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#1169587 - 01/02/2013 07:50 Re: The live cattle trade [Re: Brett Guy]
adon Offline
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Brett, I think you are talking about Halal killing in particular. This is not the reason why there is live export, most processors in Australia are certified Halal to allow them the flexibility of selling meat to as many people as possible.

Halal killing does not require cruelty. It requires the animal to be killed by slitting the throat, allowing the animal to bleed out, the animal must be alive but allows for the animal to be stunned prior to killing. All of the other things that happen have very little to do with the animal.

Only difference to ideal practice is that Halal requires the stunning method to be reversible. This in effect is not an issue as the animal is un conscious at the time of killing.

The main reasons for live export are more to do with very high costs from Australian processors and the lack of refrigeration in many poorer homes. Something which we cannot do much about. As I said earlier, we are exporting nearly everything in its raw state because we can't compete with foreign factories. Meat is no different

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#1170110 - 02/02/2013 18:05 Re: The live cattle trade [Re: adon]
ant Offline
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Registered: 05/10/2002
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Loc: Overlooking ACT at 848m
This is a very timely read: http://www.oziz4oziz.com/the-truth-about-live-export.html It is made up of submissions to the Senate and House enquiries into the trade.

It demolishes all the arguments in favour of live export. We should not be sending animals to be torn apart alive, tortured and terrorised into sickening deaths. No money can justify this.

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#1170214 - 03/02/2013 10:48 Re: The live cattle trade [Re: ant]
SBT Offline
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Registered: 07/02/2007
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Loc: Townsville Dry Tropics
Not only does killing fish quickly ensure little or no suffering they also taste better as they don't have a build up of lactic acid in the muscles that makes them tough.

I wasn't trying to justify why we are sending them live for export Ant, just pointing out why the Indons require them to be shipped that way. I agree with you, nothing deserves to be terrorised before being killed, but if the only way they have of killing is the way they have been using for a couple of hundred years then yes they should be reducated but I say again, you can't teach animal rights to a population that doesn't even acknowledge human have rights. They see a beast as walking protien and they have a method of taking it from walking to plate that we might not agree with but that is their method, not ours.
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#1170256 - 03/02/2013 18:17 Re: The live cattle trade [Re: SBT]
ant Offline
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Registered: 05/10/2002
Posts: 9063
Loc: Overlooking ACT at 848m
Imagine how you'd feel if you saw them doing that to children. That's how I feel when I see what they're doing to those animals, I can't justify it or forgive it or let it continue without doing whatever I can to stop it. Frankly, I think that people who can do that to animals are evil.

I eat meat, but it can be slaughtered in ways that minimises distress and pain to the animal, there's no excuse for what they do, none.

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#1170302 - 03/02/2013 22:17 Re: The live cattle trade [Re: ant]
Andy Double U Offline
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Registered: 28/10/2006
Posts: 1829
Loc: Mundoolun, SE QLD, 129m ASL
Well actually, if we are talking about killing an animal in the most dignified and least stressful manner for human consumption, then wandering down the paddock with a rifle is the only way to do it. As for that submission you linked to Ant, that's the biggest load of rot I've ever read. Really, live export costs Australia 1/4 of a million jobs??? Dunno how he arrived at that figure.

The other thing is, I heard a report on the ABC the other day and they were interviewing a local Indonesian butcher, he said that people already cannot afford to pay the $10/kg they charge for beef. We're flat out getting mince for that much, anyone who thinks other countries are going to spring for our prices and consume just as much beef have completely lost touch with reality.

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#1170330 - 04/02/2013 05:40 Re: The live cattle trade [Re: Andy Double U]
Brett Guy Offline
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Registered: 05/10/2010
Posts: 5092
Loc: Bently Park, Cairns
Originally Posted By: Andy Double U
Well actually, if we are talking about killing an animal in the most dignified and least stressful manner for human consumption, then wandering down the paddock with a rifle is the only way to do it. As for that submission you linked to Ant, that's the biggest load of rot I've ever read. Really, live export costs Australia 1/4 of a million jobs??? Dunno how he arrived at that figure.

The other thing is, I heard a report on the ABC the other day and they were interviewing a local Indonesian butcher, he said that people already cannot afford to pay the $10/kg they charge for beef. We're flat out getting mince for that much, anyone who thinks other countries are going to spring for our prices and consume just as much beef have completely lost touch with reality.


Sort of agree with you there Andy. One of the reasons I eat Roo over beef. At least it has led a natural life along with being a lot healthier.Farming cattle though is required to provide enough meat for consumption.


Edited by Brett Guy (04/02/2013 05:41)

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#1170380 - 04/02/2013 14:40 Re: The live cattle trade [Re: Brett Guy]
adon Offline
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Registered: 19/08/2004
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Loc: Not tellin!
Problem is that there is no way that health departments would allow for meat to be process with the animal killed in the paddock. I remember eating lamb FRESH from the paddock. While not shot in the paddock, next best thing to it. Taken into the yards, drafted off and killed within minutes of being in the paddock, I remember it tasted better than even our lamb now that is taken through the legal way(going to a abb to be killed) same lamb same everything apart from the last few days.

SBT your point is a very good one, when a man sees nothing wrong with beating his wife/s or inprisioning them, enslaving them and generally treating them as a animal, how will they suddenly start caring for an animal in their last moments of life? Not saying its right, but they are doing this to their own cattle and cattle from other countries too. Us saying you can't do this not only would create confusion( why do you care, we paid for them and they are only animals), but anger at being told what to do and also a desire to buy from people who will not tell them what to do with cattle they have paid for. Probably a bad analogy but if I bought a car from you, would you tell me how to drive it? I would probably tell you in a very polite way to take your concerns to a place where the sun don't shine! In their world, an animal is probably less respected than a car!

We seem to be forgetting that these people don't have the ability to refrigerate food generally. They cannot buy food for the week so buying frozen beef unless in very small portions is a waste. This would mean that the meat would have to be packed in small portions to be sold direct to people to take home, thaw and cook that night. This would have to be packed BEFORE freezing(in Australia) adding yet more cost to our already very high processing costs.

It would be lovely to be able to send fully processed, packed beef to places like Indonesia. But reality has to be brought into account, beef processed here is simply way too unaffordable to them. If we say no you can't buy our cattle, they will be annoyed( like last time) and go shopping elsewhere. Yes eventually the supply/demand thing would kick in and we may be able to sell cattle elsewhere but why is it ok to just shift the problem to somebody else. It would not fix the animal cruelty issue. All it would do would be to ruin thousands of people's jobs in the growing handling, transport and trading of the cattle. Is an African steer less important than an Australian steer?

Also why are these organisations who are bleating about animal cruelty taking the fight to where this cruelty is allegedly taking place? Short answer is that they know that they would be either arrested or killed for annoying people over there. The fact these people if an animal dies in accordance to some health and safety regulation or some animal right charter means that the only way they can fight this is to go to a place where the masses are too clueless or too caught up in how bad this morning latte was to take a real look at the issue of feeding poor people with what they need. The goal of most of the organisations is for the end of meat being consumed by everyone and we will all happily live for ever more eating a diet full of chickpeas and tofu and hold hangs and sing campfire songs. While back in the real world people are being ruined by the actions of a few militant vegos to whom the truth is a justified casualty in the fight for animal rights. If they got their way, there would have to be polling stations for cattle at the next election.

Rant over........ For now

P.S the indonsians are now reportedly killing their breeding stock due to the high prices for cattle. This is due partly to the fact that the govt over there is pressing for Indonesia to be self sufficient on beef in 20 years time. This was likely to be caused by the Govts haulting of exports for a period of time last year, this infuriated the Indonesians and caused meat shortages and price hikes. The hike in prices has encouraged farmers there to take the high prices and sell breeders, meaning they are reducing their national heard, this will mean that they will be even more keen to buy imported cattle in a year or so. They do not have the ability to feed the population with the land mass they have. Could have security concerns in the future with 120 million hungry people just to our north in years to come.


Edited by adon (04/02/2013 14:50)

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#1170383 - 04/02/2013 14:44 Re: The live cattle trade [Re: Brett Guy]
ant Offline
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Registered: 05/10/2002
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Loc: Overlooking ACT at 848m
When they started live export, they closed quite a number of abbatoirs in northern australia. I guess the author is counting those jobs, and the knock-on effects which happen when any large facility is shut. Also, yes, the meat is mainly bought by middle class indonesians, the working classes can't afford it.

It is a shame that we have to use economic arguments when watching a minute of the footage from Indonesia, Israel, Turkey, etc etc is enough to sicken most people. This is vicious cruelty on a massive scale, and we're profiting from it.

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#1170384 - 04/02/2013 15:02 Re: The live cattle trade [Re: ant]
adon Offline
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Registered: 19/08/2004
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Do you eat chicken ant? I see farmed chicken as even worse than this! What about caged eggs? The list goes on and on. I am all for making the lives of our livestock less cruel and stressful but this comes at a cost. Most of the people who need the food cannot afford to be worried about how it got to them. Many others just don't care. We have grown up in a society where food is abundant and cheap in comparison to other places. The percentage of our incomes spent on food has dropped massively over the last 70 years or so. That is why people have the time to have hobbies, eat at resturants...... Basically have a life. Taking all of the elements consider cruel(caged eggs, pigs in stalls, chickens in sheds, cattle sheep in feedlots ethical processing etc) would take the income people now spend on having a life and hopefully improving the future of their kids and putting it back into surviving. Only the rich would be able to pursue they're interests, and have a life, they rest of us would be working full time to pay for the food we eat.

It is probably the biggest and most important thing to the development of modern western culture. The affordability of food allows for the pursuit of a better life and the enjoyment of life. I can assure you, if you were in the same boat as the people, spending all of your waking hours working to be able to afford to eat, you would be less worried about how your food got to you, instead you would be thinking about how can I save money or make more so I can be assured of getting my next meal.

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#1170386 - 04/02/2013 15:03 Re: The live cattle trade [Re: ant]
adon Offline
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Registered: 19/08/2004
Posts: 5325
Loc: Not tellin!
Originally Posted By: ant
When they started live export, they closed quite a number of abbatoirs in northern australia. I guess the author is counting those jobs, and the knock-on effects which happen when any large facility is shut. Also, yes, the meat is mainly bought by middle class indonesians, the working classes can't afford it.

It is a shame that we have to use economic arguments when watching a minute of the footage from Indonesia, Israel, Turkey, etc etc is enough to sicken most people. This is vicious cruelty on a massive scale, and we're profiting from it.


They shut them because of high processing costs, same as countless textile mills, factories and god knows what else. It's cheaper to do it overseas. Cold hard fact. We charge too much to be competitive.

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#1170490 - 05/02/2013 09:48 Re: The live cattle trade [Re: adon]
ROM Offline
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Registered: 29/01/2007
Posts: 6628
Spot on with your comments in those last two posts, Adon,

Still the case with a lot of the third world and what use to be the case in the now industrialised western world in the 17th and the early 18th centuries was that about 80% of the family income was spent on food.
I think the figure now is around the 20% in our western developed world.

And I did say "food", not the whole super market trolley purchases which now include a whole range of non food products.

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