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#1181986 - 08/03/2013 19:09 Re: Farming, food production and consumers [Re: Greg Sorenson]
ROM Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 29/01/2007
Posts: 6628
Originally Posted By: @_Yasified_shak
It is a bit like the logic of seed banks, people would rather store seed so future generations "might" be able to do something later on down the track once that plants have become extinct. geez how radical is that! would it not be more logical to try and save and preserve a plant species while it is still alive rather than waiting till it is extinct then say, hhmmmm maybe we should do something about that? ;

Hmm! Now that comment is really all completely arse about.

Having been involved with a major and public / government owned plant breeding and agricultural research organisation for some 28 years directly you really should do your homework before making another of those types of comments YS.

There is an international network of only a dozen or so global seed banks, one of which is already located here in Horsham and is to be expanded and a new unit built to store the world's plant seeds from which ALL of mankind's food is bred from and comes from.

That network of world wide seed banks all work together so that when a plant breeder somewhere in the world wants to breed resistance into wheat, for instance to give the new wheat variety resistance to the ever mutating and perhaps a new and very potent rust bio-type then he looks up the specifications of the type of resistance he wants, where it might be found in what plant variety and where seeds for his selection are stored around the world .

He / She then sends a mail to the curator of that unit and in a few days he will get one two or three seeds which he will grow in the experimental and sealed glass houses, the pollen from which his assistants who are all young women as they are far superior to males in this, will transfer pollen across to the stigmata of the plants used in the crossing and new seeds with the hopefully genetic traits incorporating the resistance to the new rust biotype now in their genetic makeup will be grown out and the seeds from these dozen or so glass house plants collected.

They are then planted out in the field for selection and over the next four or five years of plantings of increasing numbers of seeds each year the plant breeder walks those perhaps 15,000 plants every few days and just pulls up any plants that do not meet his criteria or show evidence of rust or are not suitable for harvesting technology. Each season all the seeds of the remaining plants are kept, each plant separately and tests are done on baking quality, baking time , retention of freshness, protein content , flour making qualities and etc using s as ample of seeds from that plant. If that plants quality parameters don't met specifications then some seeds may be kept for future plant breeding crosses but it is discarded.
Something like 47 different criteria have to be met in bread wheat just for flour, dough, quality and baking qualities and that's before the harvesting, ability, disease resistance, water and temperature requirements, standing characteristics , harvesting characteristics and a number of other criteria are met .

Usually just one seed / one plant out to those perhaps 30,000 or more plants grown over those 4 or 5 years will make it through and even then it may not be success with the farmers after another 6 years or more of bulking up the seed stock so it can be released as a new variety to the farmers.

In those seed storage units are also the stored samples of seeds from the wild plants from which our crops that feed so much of the world all are cross bred from.

Those wild grasses totally unsuited to any sort of bread making or anything else have genes in them that have been naturally selected over millions of years to give perhaps some characteristic to the plant such as insect resistance to one species of insect , a trait that can be used by crossing into our bread and pasta and starch wheats or other grass type crops .
Those seeds, perhaps no more than 3 or 4 in some cases are all that the collectors in their trips across the grasslands of central Asia where grass orginated have been available to find because those grass lands and those often very unique and tiny areas of a very specific and often unknown species of grass is all that is left.

The Wheat for instance from which all our breads, pastas, starch and an amazing number of other products is made from came from two natural crosses between three wild grasses probably around ten thousand years ago.

Then mankind domesticated those wild wheat types and steadily selected it until he got varieties that suited him across all the planet's range of environments to fill his needs .

With plant breeding now including genes from those early wild grasses and from varieties being grown in nearly every nation on earth all interchanged between breeders even when countries are technically at war such as Israel and the Arab countries , the future of food supplies is far too important for the breeders to get involved in such conflicts and they and their political masters find ways around such difficulties, the wheats and the breads you eat are far, far more removed from the original bread wheats than you can ever imagine and the changes and differences will continue on as new diseases and disease mutations continue as ever to affect those vast fields of grain as they always will.
It is a non stop war between crop breeders of every type and nature's constant experimenting with new mutations and disease transformations that challenge our ability to feed mankind in ways that will ensure that no member of the human race need go hungry as far as the plant breeders and the farmers of this world are concerned.

In the Middle Ages one bushel of wheat [ 35 ltrs ] when sown was expected to give a yield of two bushels or double it's sowing rate.
Today we expect here in SE Australia that every tonne of wheat sown will return around, depending on seasons, some 40 up tp 60 or so tonnes of grain.

And that is why we can still feed the world and will continue to do so if the plant breeders and the farmers of this world are not deliberately crippled by the stupidity of the ignorant.


Edited by ROM (08/03/2013 19:18)

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#1181989 - 08/03/2013 19:12 Re: Farming, food production and consumers [Re: Greg Sorenson]
ROM Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 29/01/2007
Posts: 6628
Originally Posted By: explorer
Start at your table, what you put on your plate keeping in mind you may be the drop that overflows the glass (regarding the survival of our eco system) ... that is all you can do ... is a no brainer really .


Huh! Have you ANY idea on where your food actually comes from and have you ANY idea at all on how it is produced ?

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#1181997 - 08/03/2013 19:52 Re: Farming, food production and consumers [Re: ROM]
@_Yasified_shak Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 07/03/2009
Posts: 4030
Loc: El Arish
rom.

it is not as arse about as you may think...

And there is a difference between "plant breeding" and genetic modification....
But let's face it unless everybody thinks the same way as you do then you are a "luddite" "whacko" "hippy" and all those other little words that are used for non conformist's.....

If everyone on this planet thought the same way that you did the place would be pretty boring and there would not be much hope for the future.
_________________________
Why is it in the era of "Time saving" devices, that people are more "Time poor" than ever?

Humans think they are the fabric of society,when they are merely part of the thread.


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#1182001 - 08/03/2013 20:29 Re: Farming, food production and consumers [Re: Greg Sorenson]
explorer Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 29/01/2011
Posts: 518
Loc: Coolum Beach, Qld
Well, I think I have an idea at least where some of my food comes from: I milk my own goats, grow my own veggies, fruit and herbs,eat our own eggs from our own chooks and ducks and get our own honey from our honey bees ... Not entirely self sufficient, but slowly getting there ... I may not have the answers for everything, but I do know that a world dependent on chemicals is not sustainable .... got to be blind not to see that by now ...

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#1182019 - 08/03/2013 21:34 Re: Farming, food production and consumers [Re: Greg Sorenson]
ROM Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 29/01/2007
Posts: 6628
Ok explorer, I apologise and take that back on your not knowing where your food comes from.

Unfortunately for as far as we can see into the future chemicals of some sort will ,be used in actual food production.
A mistake a lot of anti chemical people make is that farmers choose to use chemicals.
They don't.
In fact nearly every farmer I know and i have been one all my life, doesn't like using chemicals let alone paying for them but there are no options if the public are not prepared to pay two or three times or many more times as much for their food as they are currently doing.

If you take the courtesy of reading my first post as as in the quote on the relative prices for grain in times past versus prices farmers get today today, you would see that it is only by producing very large quantities of food that we can even make some sort of living anymore. A hell of a lot of farmers can no longer even do that as witnessed by the first walk off's of farms by farmers in WA's huge eastern grain belt with a lot more to come if reports are correct.

And the low prices for what we produce, well I guess we are just too damn good at what we do and the world has so much food that it can afford to drive it's food producers into bankruptcy. At least until the world runs short of food and then the political bloodletting will begin.
Farming and food production cannot just be switched on and off like a machine in a factory.
It takes years to get a farming system up and running and producing which I suspect that unless there is a marked change in attitude particularly by the Australian public towards their farmers then sometime in the next couple of decades that public could be in for a very rude shock when they realise their Australian farmers are nearly all gone, the land is owned by Arabs, Europeans and Asians [ which is now happening around here and increasing with an informal approach a few years ago from an unnamed national entity to Victorian politicians to buy the entire 30,000 square kilometres of the Wimmera ie; 13% of Victoria, if it was for sale ] and none of the food grown on that land is going to stay in Australia.

Then there will be much lamenting at what was done to Australia's farmers and the stupidity of the shortsightedness of the public and the politicals .
And then Australian's will find themselves buying their own home produced food back at huge markups from the international owners of Australia's food producing land.

And you will have no say in how that food is produced for they will be protected diplomatically by their own home countries because food security as it already is, for many of these Asian nations will be the be all and end all of those nations with burgeoning but fortunately slowing population growth.

It's happened in the cotton country and now it's happening in the grain producing country and you have nobody to blame except yourselves if you one day cannot afford or are able to buy your food anymore.

Others not interested in you will own that food and they will not hand it over lightly.

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#1182100 - 09/03/2013 09:59 Re: Farming, food production and consumers [Re: ROM]
@_Yasified_shak Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 07/03/2009
Posts: 4030
Loc: El Arish
And the side of things most people don't see is just how "safe" these chemicals are.....They are so safe they have to be kept under lock and key



they are so safe that they carry the skull and crossbones symbol (the universal sign for DEATH)




They are so safe that when they are sprayed in a public area where anyone may come in contact with them you have to put up warning signs! (normally you only have to put up warning signs if there is some clear and present danger...)



Yes, please let's spray more of these wonderful substances on all of the food that we consume....



There is one simple solution to world hunger... grow your OWN food!
_________________________
Why is it in the era of "Time saving" devices, that people are more "Time poor" than ever?

Humans think they are the fabric of society,when they are merely part of the thread.


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#1182101 - 09/03/2013 10:02 Re: Farming, food production and consumers [Re: Greg Sorenson]
ROM Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 29/01/2007
Posts: 6628
May the good lord save us from fanatics of every colour, race, creed and belief .

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#1182103 - 09/03/2013 10:18 Re: Farming, food production and consumers [Re: Greg Sorenson]
explorer Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 29/01/2011
Posts: 518
Loc: Coolum Beach, Qld
Amen! with the following amendment: ... particularly if they are waving any chemical flags!!!! Good lord protect us from those!!!

...

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#1182108 - 09/03/2013 10:29 Re: Farming, food production and consumers [Re: Greg Sorenson]
ROM Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 29/01/2007
Posts: 6628
And try walking into a constantly staffed chemist's dispensary or a hospital dispensary where all those health providing drugs in very small quantities and doses are kept and see how far you get!

Those drugs and chemicals in those dispensaries In quantities only a fraction of the size of the quantity of farm chemicals will kill a person as fast or faster than most farm chemicals.
Of course if those dispensary drugs were just left out in an open shed somewhere and nobody was around for days at a time that would also pass the authorities requirements I don't think.
So it is prudent to lock farm chemicals up just like all other industries that use chemicals,
It is both law and prudent to ensure the protection of workers in all industries that use chemicals by providing safety clothing when they are exposed to those chemicals .

It is a requirement of law for warning signs to be put in place including on those packets of pills you can buy even in the supermarkets.
Deliberately and misleading and untruthful propaganda is one of the hall marks of all fanatical believers in a cause.

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#1182110 - 09/03/2013 10:32 Re: Farming, food production and consumers [Re: ROM]
@_Yasified_shak Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 07/03/2009
Posts: 4030
Loc: El Arish
Originally Posted By: ROM
May the good lord save us from fanatics of every colour, race, creed and belief .

There are none so blind as those that can see,or should i say do not want to see what is in front of them.
_________________________
Why is it in the era of "Time saving" devices, that people are more "Time poor" than ever?

Humans think they are the fabric of society,when they are merely part of the thread.


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#1182120 - 09/03/2013 10:50 Re: Farming, food production and consumers [Re: ROM]
@_Yasified_shak Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 07/03/2009
Posts: 4030
Loc: El Arish
Originally Posted By: ROM
And try walking into a constantly staffed chemist's dispensary or a hospital dispensary where all those health providing drugs in very small quantities and doses are kept and see how far you get!

Those drugs and chemicals in those dispensaries In quantities only a fraction of the size of the quantity of farm chemicals will kill a person as fast or faster than most farm chemicals.
Of course if those dispensary drugs were just left out in an open shed somewhere and nobody was around for days at a time that would also pass the authorities requirements I don't think.
So it is prudent to lock farm chemicals up just like all other industries that use chemicals,
It is both law and prudent to ensure the protection of workers in all industries that use chemicals by providing safety clothing when they are exposed to those chemicals .

It is a requirement of law for warning signs to be put in place including on those packets of pills you can buy even in the supermarkets.
Deliberately and misleading and untruthful propaganda is one of the hall marks of all fanatical believers in a cause.


Well that is pertinant, you have to protect your farm workers from exposure to "cemical cocktails" yet it is perfectly safe for every human being to ingest them, and it is not just one single chemical either that is sprayed on near or under food it is a multitude.

Yes that is correct you need to have warnings in vitamins because if you take too many you may overdose? on what though? being healthy? now have you honestly ever heard on ONE person dieing from an overdose of vitamins? probably not, chemical exposure?that probably happens everyday somewhere but you would not know about it because that would get swept under the carpet because we would not want the general public to find out about it as they might not like what they hear.


And most of these chemical pills in hospitals would not be needed if there was not such a reliance on chemicals to start with! and everyone on the planet does not need said pills if they lived a healthy lifestyle, but i forgot what would i know i'm just a Luddite, psycho hippie, fanatical,blablahblah or what ever else you can think i am aren't i? grin
Sticks and stones may break my bones but too much chemicals will kill me smirk
_________________________
Why is it in the era of "Time saving" devices, that people are more "Time poor" than ever?

Humans think they are the fabric of society,when they are merely part of the thread.


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#1182182 - 09/03/2013 15:30 Re: Farming, food production and consumers [Re: Greg Sorenson]
SBT Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 07/02/2007
Posts: 14126
Loc: Townsville Dry Tropics
Chemicals bad, natural is good.

Yeah right.

Lumping all chemicals as bad and all natural things as good is a generalisation that makes you look pretty silly.
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#1182185 - 09/03/2013 15:36 Re: Farming, food production and consumers [Re: Greg Sorenson]
Loopy Radar Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 05/10/2010
Posts: 880
Loc: Lismore NSW
Definitely worth the time. Well researched.

The World According to Monsanto GMO Documentary

Hello my friends, be prepared for some challenging truths and be warned, our governments are being exposed for the puppet pretend democracies they are.... big BUSINESS calls the shots. People .... just in the way of their progress. We can change our fate, if we unify and use the only weapon feasible to beat the global elite ( major share holders in Monsanto) People Power. uploaded by Uploaded by eboyuk on May 18, 2011

There's nothing they are leaving untouched: the mustard, the okra, the bringe oil, the rice, the cauliflower. Once they have established the norm: that seed can be owned as their property, royalties can be collected. We will depend on them for every seed we grow of every crop we grow. If they control seed, they control food, they know it -- it's strategic. It's more powerful than bombs. It's more powerful than guns. This is the best way to control the populations of the world. The story starts in the White House, where Monsanto often got its way by exerting disproportionate influence over policymakers via the "revolving door". One example is Michael Taylor, who worked for Monsanto as an attorney before being appointed as deputy commissioner of the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) in 1991. While at the FDA, the authority that deals with all US food approvals, Taylor made crucial decisions that led to the approval of GE foods and crops. Then he returned to Monsanto, becoming the company's vice president for public policy.

Thanks to these intimate links between Monsanto and government agencies, the US adopted GE foods and crops without proper testing, without consumer labeling and in spite of serious questions hanging over their safety. Not coincidentally, Monsanto supplies 90 percent of the GE seeds used by the US market. Monsanto's long arm stretched so far that, in the early nineties, the US Food and Drugs Agency even ignored warnings of their own scientists, who were cautioning that GE crops could cause negative health effects. Other tactics the company uses to stifle concerns about their products include misleading advertising, bribery and concealing scientific evidence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VEZYQF9Wl
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#1182191 - 09/03/2013 15:54 Re: Farming, food production and consumers [Re: Greg Sorenson]
Loopy Radar Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 05/10/2010
Posts: 880
Loc: Lismore NSW
The question shouldn't be 'how can we feed the world' rather, how can we help feed our community?.
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#1182266 - 09/03/2013 19:33 Re: Farming, food production and consumers [Re: SBT]
@_Yasified_shak Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 07/03/2009
Posts: 4030
Loc: El Arish
Originally Posted By: SBT
Chemicals bad, natural is good.

Yeah right.

Lumping all chemicals as bad and all natural things as good is a generalisation that makes you look pretty silly.




Wow i was expecting more than that smirk

i was expecting your usual rhetoric about how you used to pour round up on your cornflakes and use DDT as talcum powder under your armpits to keep away the jumbo fleas, and sump oil to comb through your hair...back in the 50's and how you are still in perfect health because of it?
_________________________
Why is it in the era of "Time saving" devices, that people are more "Time poor" than ever?

Humans think they are the fabric of society,when they are merely part of the thread.


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#1182366 - 10/03/2013 09:50 Re: Farming, food production and consumers [Re: Loopy Radar]
@_Yasified_shak Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 07/03/2009
Posts: 4030
Loc: El Arish
Originally Posted By: Loopy Radar
The question shouldn't be 'how can we feed the world' rather, how can we help feed our community?.

One of the simplest ways would be to "grow your own", have a a veggie garden, this idea was proved after the war when there was food shortages they launched the idea of "victory gardens" where people simply planted a vegie plot in their own backyard.

These victory gardens supplied over 40% of the nations fresh food and proved to be a great success.
Nowadays everyone is too "time poor" and would rather have someone else grow all of there food for them! which is a real shame as most people would not even know what fresh "home grown" food taste like and it is nothing like the bland cardboard tasting rubbish you buy from the stupor markets.

a veggie plot may not supply all the food you require but it will supply a vast quantity of fresh food for your family and does not take that much time at all, and studies have also shown that gardeners live longer lives (so what could be better than that)
_________________________
Why is it in the era of "Time saving" devices, that people are more "Time poor" than ever?

Humans think they are the fabric of society,when they are merely part of the thread.


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#1182394 - 10/03/2013 11:49 Re: Farming, food production and consumers [Re: Greg Sorenson]
Andy Double U Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 28/10/2006
Posts: 1829
Loc: Mundoolun, SE QLD, 129m ASL
*yawn* Once again the ignorant run rife preaching their unassailable moral high ground stance, not that I have any problem with the principles of eating fresh food, getting plenty of exercise and steering clear of nasty stuff to a large extent. The reality is however, people already aren't willing to sacrifice the time and effort my partner and I put into our food preparation, and I can tell you right now, my partner and I have don't have any time to tend to a vegie garden to the extent that is needed to yield us with a good quantity of produce.

The fact is, pesticides weren't invented by people who then invented a need in order to make money. There was a need any their products filled it. GM crops aren't something that someone thought' hey, 'I'll tweak this, patent that, and make everyone bow down to me'. As was evidenced by a case prosecuted by Monsanto, people obviously find the characteristics of GM crops appealing, they just don't want to pay for it. So in saying that, put your money where your mouth is, release an idea or project to the general populous that you've put some serious money, time and effort into and that you expect that you'll be able to get a return on. Until you've done so, the only thing we can be left to assume of your opinions is that they consist of empty rhetoric sprouted forth by an idealist who chooses to remain ignorant of the way the world works and operates.

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#1182401 - 10/03/2013 12:34 Re: Farming, food production and consumers [Re: Greg Sorenson]
explorer Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 29/01/2011
Posts: 518
Loc: Coolum Beach, Qld
... well, well, well ... it is a matter of choice ... you are happy with the status quo, that is fine, keep on relying on whatever you can get from the supermarkets without reading labels and opting for 'good health' options ... I, on the other hand make allocations in my time to make sure that any shopping trips allow me time to read those labels and seek best options ... I am also very happy that there are people out there, even at large scale gardening level and even whole countries with similar mindset ... guess this 'ignorant' sickness or bug must be contagious and spreading faster than some may expect ...

The fact that getting there may take some time yet, it is not being used as an excuse by some people holding the power in their country to keep on trying and regulating accordingly ...

http://gourmetorigins.com/en/content/3243/bhutan-first-country-to-go-totally-organic
I am hoping that some day it will be our country leading by example, but it has to start somewhere and every bit counts ... I do not let the enormity of the task ahead within a global perspective, stop me from doing my bit at my local level and I encourage everyone to do so ... but, if you do not have the time, that is fine too ... keep on doing what is right for you and I will keep on doing what is right for me ... without pointing fingers at one another ... let time be the one doing that at the end ... our health will eventually speak for itself ...

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#1182402 - 10/03/2013 12:35 Re: Farming, food production and consumers [Re: Andy Double U]
@_Yasified_shak Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 07/03/2009
Posts: 4030
Loc: El Arish
Oh i must apologise if i bore you so Andy Double U... but then why are you sitting hear reading the ramblings of a mad man if you have no time for such things?
(yes mad man is a hat that i will wear proudly as individuals are the ones that make the world a more interesting place rather than those that simply follow everyone else around like *lost* sheep and does what everyone else does..))

Yes, that is the catch phrase of today isn't it? "i have no time for....." i'm too time poor...

Why is that? because people want the "lifestyle" they want to buy all of the latest "time saving" gadgets that are supposed to make their lives SO... much better but do they? no they don't people are more "time poor" than ever!
Again why is that? because people are so busy working to pay for all of these gadgets that will be simply "chucked out" because oohhh the latest model has come out! oooohhhhhh i just have to have it!!!! crazy crazy smirk (never mind the fact that the old one still functions perfectly) so i will just buy the new model because everyone else will get one and i will just wack it on the credit card and pay for that later... or do a bit more overtime to pay for it, hmm wont have time to d anything this week because i am too busy working....

Funny thing is people want a "lifestyle" but they are basically killing themselves in the process,(and spending more and more time at work away from their family) and before they know it their lives will have passed them by, their children will have all grown up and left home......

i also agree with your comments 100% explorer.
_________________________
Why is it in the era of "Time saving" devices, that people are more "Time poor" than ever?

Humans think they are the fabric of society,when they are merely part of the thread.


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#1182426 - 10/03/2013 13:43 Re: Farming, food production and consumers [Re: Greg Sorenson]
ROM Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 29/01/2007
Posts: 6628
Interesting that somebody like YS who demands to live his own particular brand of life style is now denigrating the lifestyle of anybody else who wants to or lives a different way of life to his.

Meanwhile instead of being parasitical on society those others of our citizens are providing the power, the water, the transport, the food, the immense numbers of services such as telecommunications and power that allow YS to rant and rave on this forum about chemicals and the other's desires for items other than those he believes in.

Those Home or so called Victory Gardens in Britain during WW2 on which so much effort was expended on, despite immense efforts by the authorities, supplied less than half the food needs of the British.
In December 1940 Britain was only a few weeks away from starvation until the U boats sinking of so many ships in the Atlantic were finally countered and the Food imports from the vast farmlands of Canada and the USA rose again to a level that kept the British population from hunger and ultimately starvation.

And all of that was with a global population of just some 3 billions.

Nothing has changed.
With well over half of the mankind's 7 billion plus numbers now living in cities of over 100,000 plus, the only way these people can be and will be fed is by the immense production of the global farm lands and world's farmers.

Farmers and farming on a huge scale using all of modern technology and without a great expansion of farm land since the end of WW2 is still the only means of supplying enough food for all of earth's peoples and will remain the only means that will continue to keep mankind from hunger and starvation.

To believe that everybody is willing to and will grow back yard vegies in some non existent plots in the cities is irrational .
To believe that some backyard vegie patches are going to feed mankind's numbers is utterly irrational and just pissing into the wind.

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