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#1473644 - 14/10/2018 23:54 Re: Stratospheric sudden warmings (SSWs) [Re: Seina]
marakai Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 1988
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: Seira
Originally Posted By: Seira
Originally Posted By: marakai
Originally Posted By: Seira
In my previous post I mentioned the mesosphere and its possible / likely contribution to SSWs ... I cannot help the direction some of the discussions are taking in this "General Weather" sub-forum...all I can do is provide / offer some genuine evidence-based material for research...perhaps add a spanner in the works occasionally...the rest I leave to other posters smile .


Ever looked at the effect of Coronal Holes on the Sun on Earths Troposphere ?

No, I'd need to do some further research smile .

I undertook some additional research into the phenomenon mentioned by marakai [Coronal Holes]. I found the idea interesting and curious...informing, however another thing [issue] I noted was a reference to a feature of the solar magnetic field which I found difficult to understand.

Any magnetic field is not possible without its complementary and corresponding electric counterpart...with the cross-product of the two vectors giving the direction of force applied to a moving charged particle within the field, which also depends on the charge sign.

While the solar magnetic field provides the sheet-plasma of the solar "wind" -- within the solar ecliptic plane -- and is understood to take around 8 minutes to reach Earth's Bow-Shock region, I understand it is more likely to be interactions of higher-energy charged particles higher in the Earth's atmosphere...that gives rise to lower altitude effects, when a Coronal Hole is apparent.

As Coronal Holes suggest lower UV and X ray electromagnetism -- because they are holes when seen through those filters -- I think it would be probable secondary or tertiary showers of charged particles from the mesosphere...due to these holes...could impact SSW events smile .


"and is understood to take around 8 minutes to reach Earth's Bow-Shock region" Guess what else takes place about every 8 minutes Flux transfer events.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3h0lrWHUOaM

https://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2008/30oct_ftes

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#1473647 - 15/10/2018 00:16 Re: Stratospheric sudden warmings (SSWs) [Re: crikey]
marakai Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 1988
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
To late to edit but also https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2018JA025411

It seems that things don't just happen from the bottom up nor occur from the top down but also are a result from the outside in. .


Edited by marakai (15/10/2018 00:20)

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#1473750 - 15/10/2018 16:10 Re: Stratospheric sudden warmings (SSWs) [Re: crikey]
Seina Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 27/08/2003
Posts: 7637
Loc: Adelaide Hills
Regarding my previous post about the cross-product of electromagnetic interactions and applied physical forces -- or torques -- to charged particles (or ions), I was attempting to allude to the fact that magnetic field "lines" are a misnomer [similar to electric field "lines"], for all intensive purposes...they do not actually exist - they are useful for conceptualisiing the electromagnetic wave field, however the field is just that -- a field.

P.S. If others contributing to this thread and such-like wish to argue points until they are blue in the face (if they do), they are welcome to do so...with like-minded individuals -- I am not one of them. The issue I have with these discussions has nothing to do any theory we can't talk about....and everything to do with people showing humility and kindness towards others.

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#1473758 - 15/10/2018 17:32 Re: Stratospheric sudden warmings (SSWs) [Re: crikey]
Petros Offline
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Registered: 30/12/2002
Posts: 7540
Loc: Maffra, Central Gippsland, Vi...
What about the magnetic field lines associated with a permanent magnet?

Put a bit of paper over one and sprinkle iron filings over it - thats not a conception!?


Edited by Petros (15/10/2018 17:33)

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#1473761 - 15/10/2018 17:46 Re: Stratospheric sudden warmings (SSWs) [Re: Petros]
Seina Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 27/08/2003
Posts: 7637
Loc: Adelaide Hills
Originally Posted By: Petros
What about the magnetic field lines associated with a permanent magnet?

Put a bit of paper over one and sprinkle iron filings over it - thats not a conception!?

...when something interacts yes -- like iron sprinkles or a compass needle...it shows structure due to the interacting material. The "lines" are not physical though -- you cannot physically touch them; they are an immaterial field (iron sprinkles are material).


Edited by Seira (15/10/2018 17:47)

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#1473764 - 15/10/2018 18:12 Re: Stratospheric sudden warmings (SSWs) [Re: crikey]
Petros Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 30/12/2002
Posts: 7540
Loc: Maffra, Central Gippsland, Vi...
Sorry - I thought that you thought that they dont actually exist.

....and by "immaterial" - I dont recommend you go putting your testicles into a strong mag field.


Edited by Petros (15/10/2018 18:13)

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#1473773 - 15/10/2018 20:31 Re: Stratospheric sudden warmings (SSWs) [Re: Petros]
Seina Offline
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Registered: 27/08/2003
Posts: 7637
Loc: Adelaide Hills
Originally Posted By: Petros
Sorry - I thought that you thought that they dont actually exist.

....and by "immaterial" - I dont recommend you go putting your testicles into a strong mag field.

What sort of response is desired? The lines are not physical objects, that I understand.


Edited by Seira (15/10/2018 20:36)

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#1473793 - 16/10/2018 07:54 Re: Stratospheric sudden warmings (SSWs) [Re: crikey]
samboz Offline
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Registered: 16/11/2014
Posts: 2116
Loc: Sale, Central Gippsland, S/E V...
Vera entertaining, pls continue laugh laugh

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#1473883 - 16/10/2018 19:50 Re: Stratospheric sudden warmings (SSWs) [Re: crikey]
Seina Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 27/08/2003
Posts: 7637
Loc: Adelaide Hills
I tend to be more interested in the pure science side of things, and how it relates to climate and weather, and various other systems within the local planetary neighbourhood smile . I guess that this primarily being a weather forum...that might be why such focus's are not front and centre in these dialogues. That much I acknowledge.

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#1474090 - 18/10/2018 22:03 Re: Stratospheric sudden warmings (SSWs) [Re: Seina]
Seina Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 27/08/2003
Posts: 7637
Loc: Adelaide Hills
Originally Posted By: Seira
Originally Posted By: Petros
Sorry - I thought that you thought that they dont actually exist.

....and by "immaterial" - I dont recommend you go putting your testicles into a strong mag field.

What sort of response is desired? The lines are not physical objects, that I understand.

Immaterial does not have mass, and therefore is not subject to gravity in the same sense.... Despite not having a "?" after the "immaterial" -- I'll take it as a question.


Edited by Seira (18/10/2018 22:10)

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#1474092 - 18/10/2018 22:32 Re: Stratospheric sudden warmings (SSWs) [Re: crikey]
snowbooby Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 11/05/2016
Posts: 243
It's interesting to me to ask in what way do they exist - a sort of inferred existence? which is only manifest through an effect on a medium?

Bringing this back to atmospherics -I'm tempted to believe, though not absolutely certain, that planetary waves might be described in same way.

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#1474094 - 18/10/2018 23:52 Re: Stratospheric sudden warmings (SSWs) [Re: snowbooby]
marakai Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 1988
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: snowbooby
It's interesting to me to ask in what way do they exist - a sort of inferred existence? which is only manifest through an effect on a medium?

Bringing this back to atmospherics -I'm tempted to believe, though not absolutely certain, that planetary waves might be described in same way.


They are waves of magnetic energy, constantly shifting and moving about. Picture an Aurora moving through the night sky at the poles and then relate the movement of colour seen by the eye to the magnetic fields of the earth and sun interacting. Just as the visible colours move about, the magnetic field is constantly shifting and moving about yet contains a whole lot more energy than just visible colour.

Think also that the Earths magnetic poles are on the move as well, along with those of the sun too. Birds along with Aquatic species use this for both navigation and migration , Earths poles are on an escalating ride of late and our magnetic shield is weakening as a result of this also.

Everybody assumes that the Earth is in a static ellipse around the Sun in our Solar system in the same old place all the time year after year in the Milky way galaxy in the Universe.

It's not though https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jHsq36_NTU not only are we on the Earth on the move, our solar system And the whole Milky way galaxy are on the move through the Universe, all the time.

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#1474485 - 22/10/2018 20:19 Re: Stratospheric sudden warmings (SSWs) [Re: crikey]
Seina Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 27/08/2003
Posts: 7637
Loc: Adelaide Hills
Regarding the idea of existing electromagnetic field/s, the answer would be, in our sense, yes. They exist.

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#1474491 - 22/10/2018 20:39 Re: Stratospheric sudden warmings (SSWs) [Re: crikey]
Flowin Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 15/10/2017
Posts: 552
Loc: Pinjarra Hills, Qld
Thanks for that post Marakai
It reminds me of quote "the purpose of time is so that everything does not happen at once"
I think it was Albert Einstein but that may be mistaken

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#1474494 - 22/10/2018 20:51 Re: Stratospheric sudden warmings (SSWs) [Re: crikey]
Flowin Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 15/10/2017
Posts: 552
Loc: Pinjarra Hills, Qld
Can only be enjoyed if one is willing to challenge one's knowledge while still putting a lens of reasonable science over it..... And that can spiral, or fail 😂

NB post was response to Seira, "enjoy....."
And that post disappeared


Edited by Flowin (22/10/2018 20:54)

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#1474495 - 22/10/2018 20:53 Re: Stratospheric sudden warmings (SSWs) [Re: crikey]
Petros Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 30/12/2002
Posts: 7540
Loc: Maffra, Central Gippsland, Vi...
If an electromagnetic field is in place, and then another electromagnet field, such as gravity, or a field induced by electrical current (many causes for this, eg. solar storm, power flow in a typical power line, magma flows etc.) interacts with it, then the outcome is real force. Imaginary becomes sensible. How electric motors work.

Not being smart, just saying ...(it was my job as power station HV/generator technician).


....and by extension, force not countered by movement can result in release of heat (the energy needed to counter, always a result of electrical current flow, eg in the magma below a planet etc.).



Edited by Petros (22/10/2018 21:00)

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#1474497 - 22/10/2018 20:57 Re: Stratospheric sudden warmings (SSWs) [Re: Flowin]
Seina Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 27/08/2003
Posts: 7637
Loc: Adelaide Hills
Originally Posted By: Flowin
Can only be enjoyed if one is willing to challenge one's knowledge while still putting a lens of reasonable science over it..... And that can spiral, or fail 😂

NB post was response to Seira, "enjoy....."
And that post disappeared

Maybe because I've had enough of the philosophical nature of discussion on this stuff in here. Why not just be [censored] objective and enjoy life for what it is?

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#1474499 - 22/10/2018 21:00 Re: Stratospheric sudden warmings (SSWs) [Re: Seina]
Flowin Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 15/10/2017
Posts: 552
Loc: Pinjarra Hills, Qld
Originally Posted By: Seira
Originally Posted By: Flowin
Can only be enjoyed if one is willing to challenge one's knowledge while still putting a lens of reasonable science over it..... And that can spiral, or fail 😂

NB post was response to Seira, "enjoy....."
And that post disappeared

Maybe because I've had enough of the philosophical nature of discussion on this stuff in here. Why not just be [censored] objective and enjoy life for what it is?

Totally agree with enjoy life for what it is .....

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#1474500 - 22/10/2018 21:01 Re: Stratospheric sudden warmings (SSWs) [Re: crikey]
Petros Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 30/12/2002
Posts: 7540
Loc: Maffra, Central Gippsland, Vi...
I hope you enjoy a great life Siera.

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#1474509 - 22/10/2018 23:35 Re: Stratospheric sudden warmings (SSWs) [Re: snowbooby]
snowbooby Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 11/05/2016
Posts: 243
Originally Posted By: snowbooby
It's interesting to me to ask in what way do they exist - a sort of inferred existence? which is only manifest through an effect on a medium?

Bringing this back to atmospherics -I'm tempted to believe, though not absolutely certain, that planetary waves might be described in same way.


When I mentioned planetary waves I was thinking of the waves excited in the earth's troposphere since they relate to ssw's. If anyone can ellucidate on Eliassen Palm flux I'd love to hear about it since I think it is(the vector?) charted(noaa) to indicate the sort of wave activity originating in the troposphere which is capable of penetrating into the stratosphere.

A general introduction to the concept of flux - particularly heat and momentum flux - as a first step before any effort to understand the Eliassen Palm bit, welcome and certainly advised for my benefit.

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