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#1189661 - 16/04/2013 11:27 Re: Coal Fired Power - Dark and dirty side? [Re: @_Yasified_shak]
Tom1234 Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 08/04/2011
Posts: 1709
Loc: Port Stephens
Lockes argument is a non point as coal energy is not cheap energy. If you don't understand externalities then i suggest you google it.

Argument
Renewable energy is too expensive
"[Wind energy] is a more expensive way of producing energy than the alternative." (David Montgomery)

Answer
When you account for the effects which are not reflected in the market price of fossil fuels, like air pollution and health impacts, the true cost of coal and other fossil fuels is higher than the cost of most renewable energy technologies.

It is a false argument to claim that "cheap coal" is the only way to keep living standards up and save lives in developing nations. It is simply not true that coal is cheap energy, it is more expensive than renewables.

"Many people prefer coal combustion to renewable energy because it seems to be cheaper. However, when accounting for the true costs of coal power, most renewable energy sources are actually significantly cheaper in the long-run."

"A 2013 report published by the International Monetary Fund concluded that global fossil fuel subisides amount to $1.9 trillion annually. $1.4 trillion of this is due to externalities, $800 billion due to climate change. This estimate is based on a conservative social cost of carbon of $25 per tonne of CO2 emitted. An arguably more realistic estimate of $100 per tonne of CO2 would bring global fossil fuel subsidies to over $4 trillion per year, with $3.2 trillion due to climate change."

http://skepticalscience.com/renewable-energy-is-too-expensive.htm

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#1189662 - 16/04/2013 11:29 Re: Coal Fired Power - Dark and dirty side? [Re: Bill Illis]
Tom1234 Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 08/04/2011
Posts: 1709
Loc: Port Stephens
Originally Posted By: Bill Illis

The coal mine pits are far from where anyone lives






I hope that is sarcasm ??

haven't been to the Hunter Valley I take it ? Or America ?



According to a health impact assessment by the Kentucky Environmental Foundation that examines research on the impact of coal in Kentucky, the health costs came in at more than $62 million in 2007 — and that’s just for asthma, which inflicts 1 in 10 Kentuckians and kills about 50 people in the state per year. Asthma rates for African Americans of high school age in Kentucky are at 22%.

More than 3.3 million residents in the state live within 30 miles of a coal fired power plant.

The report examines costs along the coal value chain, including mining, transportation and electricity generation. KEF cites a study from Public Health Reports that finds 2,347 – 2,889 yearly excess deaths from coal mining in Appalachia, costing the region an estimated $10 billion each year.
http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2012/01...ives/?mobile=nc


So in the USA they could reduce excess mortality by reducing coal mining and the use coal fired power stations. Burning coal seems the opposite of saving lives in developed nations at least.




Edited by Enrique (16/04/2013 11:33)

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#1189663 - 16/04/2013 11:40 Re: Coal Fired Power - Dark and dirty side? [Re: Brett Guy]
@_Yasified_shak Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 07/03/2009
Posts: 4219
Loc: El Arish
Quote:
The coal mine pits are far from where anyone lives and yes they can be reclaimed after.


Think again, look how close the mine is to houses and probably the town's main water supply....



_________________________
Why is it in the era of "Time saving" devices, that people are more "Time poor" than ever?

Humans think they are the fabric of society,when they are merely part of the thread.


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#1189664 - 16/04/2013 11:45 Re: Coal Fired Power - Dark and dirty side? [Re: @_Yasified_shak]
refstar Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 15/10/2012
Posts: 310
Ever though that the mines were there first and then housing encroached on the mines? Nah, too busy flailing away at the "evil" coal mines......

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#1189669 - 16/04/2013 12:00 Re: Coal Fired Power - Dark and dirty side? [Re: @_Yasified_shak]
Bill Illis Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 11/07/2010
Posts: 1003

Looks very populated in this picture.

Also looks like a nice place to visit.





And the billions of dollars provided by that black deposit will provide a lot of comfort to millions of people.

Versus a few dozen windmills which do absolutely nothing but kill animals and make people sick within range.

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#1189671 - 16/04/2013 12:24 Re: Coal Fired Power - Dark and dirty side? [Re: SBT]
@_Yasified_shak Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 07/03/2009
Posts: 4219
Loc: El Arish
Originally Posted By: SBT
I said new and existing mine sites, not abandon ones.

As for Whittenoom it is gone - it was completely removed off the face of the planet. They spent millions rehabilitating the land after the removal of all infrastructure and access to the mine site and old township is strictly controlled. The pictures you have posted are of buildings that no longer exist but you already knew that. You skew facts to suit yourself and your sad conspiracy theories. Asbestos is a natural product - you know one of those things you continually bang on about being good for you.

Once again you equate earning a very good wage as being unhappy. Not true. I know quite a few people in the mining industry who are earning a huge income and are quite happy. They have paid off their homes, taken their kids on world trips, they are given the best education available, clothes, cars, land and they have set up trusts so their kids have a good start in life and they pay a hell of a lot in tax each fortnight. - They buy locally which helps out retailers, they buy food, fuel, cars, real estate, clothes, travel, pay rates and all the other stuff that normal people do. I also know at least one person who made a fortune via hydroponics - of course getting caught meant he did some serious jail time though.

You just can't get your head around that earning money is not evil and working in the mining industry isn't a crime against humanity.



Good in theory but not in practice...Mines will still go belly up.
Mines will still be abandoned, mines will still be abandoned and the tax payer will still have to foot the bill.

New or existing or abandoned it still exists, fact is there are thousands of environmental and Toxic mine sites right across the country because of mining and it's after effects.

Whittenoom may have been "whiped off the map" but doen't mean it is gone!
Quote:


THE infamous asbestos mining town of Wittenoom has finally been wiped off the map with the site de-gazetted by the government.

The announcement coincided with the release today of the latest report into asbestos contamination.

Regional Development Minister Jon Ford said[b the report clearly demonstrated that the risks for most types of land users in and around Wittenoom were in a medium-to-high risk. [/b]

"The Department of Health has independently examined the report and indicated that these levels of risk of exposure to asbestos contamination represent an unacceptable public health risk,'' he said.

"The fact that Wittenoom continues to attract people who are then potentially exposed to an unacceptable health risk is untenable.''

But the eight residents who still live in the Pilbara ghost town have vowed to stay.

"We're not going anywhere,'' said Lorraine Thomas, who owns the Wittenoom gem shop and has lived there for 23 years.

"This is our home and whether it's a gazetted town or not doesn't mean a thing to us.''

Mrs Thomas had a solar power system installed in the town on Monday to supply four homes owned by her and husband Les.

The State Government turned off electricity a year ago.

Mr Ford said the removal of townsite status would help the Shire of Ashburton progress the closure of the town including closing all roads into the area.

"The state government, after consultation with the Shire of Ashburton, has finalised the process to remove Wittenoom's status as a townsite,'' Mr Ford said.

The government announced in 2006 that it was pressing ahead with the closure.

Since then three residents have sold properties and moved out and 17 vacant lots are being bought with negotiations underway for the acquisition of another nine properties.


Yes, Asbestos maybe a natural substance and is harmless when it is naturally buried in the ground, it only turns deadly at the hand of man when he digs it up...


earning money may be fine, but again at what cost, working 12 hours a day for 10 days at a time? seeing your kids grow up because you're not there to notice?
_________________________
Why is it in the era of "Time saving" devices, that people are more "Time poor" than ever?

Humans think they are the fabric of society,when they are merely part of the thread.


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#1189673 - 16/04/2013 12:34 Re: Coal Fired Power - Dark and dirty side? [Re: Bill Illis]
@_Yasified_shak Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 07/03/2009
Posts: 4219
Loc: El Arish
Originally Posted By: Bill Illis

Looks very populated in this picture.

Also looks like a nice place to visit.





And the billions of dollars provided by that black deposit will provide a lot of comfort to millions of people.

Versus a few dozen windmills which do absolutely nothing but kill animals and make people sick within range.



Of course it would look less populated if you take the picture looking away from the township..... smile And it is exactly the same mine as in the photo's below.





Quote:
Versus a few dozen windmills which do absolutely nothing but kill animals




Not when compared to powerlines. smile
_________________________
Why is it in the era of "Time saving" devices, that people are more "Time poor" than ever?

Humans think they are the fabric of society,when they are merely part of the thread.


Top
#1189680 - 16/04/2013 12:59 Re: Coal Fired Power - Dark and dirty side? [Re: @_Yasified_shak]
ROM Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 29/01/2007
Posts: 6628
With wind turbines spread across huge areas of territory there will have to be many hundreds of kilometres of new high voltage power lines built to take that wind energy from the wind farms to the customers and industry.
So if there is such a kill of birds from powerlines already as you claim then the wind industry is going to be completely responsible for all those extra bird deaths from the power lines built specifically for the wind turbine farms as well as the huge number of bird and bat deaths they already cause.

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#1189683 - 16/04/2013 13:05 Re: Coal Fired Power - Dark and dirty side? [Re: @_Yasified_shak]
SBT Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 07/02/2007
Posts: 14286
Loc: Townsville Dry Tropics
Originally Posted By: Mt Morgan Water Treatment
“There has never been an uncontrolled spill of water from the open cut pit in the mine’s history,” Hinchliffe said. He went on to say that there were two controlled releases were carried out in March this year, after the public were first informed.

“The water in the open cut pit is not toxic or poisonous and while it contains elevated levels of copper, aluminium, magnesium and other metals along with sulphate salts, these occur naturally....

http://www.miningaustralia.com.au/news/qld-provides-mine-rehab-funding-boost

http://mines.industry.qld.gov.au/safety-and-health/abandoned-mine-lands-program.htm Abandoned Mines Rehab Program

http://mines.industry.qld.gov.au/safety-and-health/mount-morgan.htm Mt Morgan rehab program which started in 2000

http://hancockcoal.com.au/files/alpha-co...20&%20Rehab.pdf

http://www.fba.org.au/news/downloads/cqminingforum_michael-rodgerson.pdf

http://www.claytonutz.com.au/publication...arge_mines.page Progressive Rehab of Mine Sites

http://www.maculrob.com.au/downloads/306...on%20update.pdf

Just some of the efforts being made in Queensland to fix the problems.

_________________________
785mm Jan
799mm Feb
130 March
2019 Total 1714mm
2018 Total 822mm






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#1189684 - 16/04/2013 13:06 Re: Coal Fired Power - Dark and dirty side? [Re: @_Yasified_shak]
Tom1234 Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 08/04/2011
Posts: 1709
Loc: Port Stephens
Funny how you people cry over a few dead animals yet you don't care about AGW or pollution and its effects on humans, too funny guys.

Also funny that the pro coal guys don't provide any evidence at all to support their positions, yet there is plenty stating how much coal costs in dollars and lives.

Oh yes an open cut mine would make for a lovely picnic spot Bill Illis, are you serious or what ?


Edited by Enrique (16/04/2013 13:08)

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#1189685 - 16/04/2013 13:11 Re: Coal Fired Power - Dark and dirty side? [Re: @_Yasified_shak]
Locke Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 27/12/2007
Posts: 4553
Loc: Brisbane
Quote:
so it is fine to take lives because of coal fired power to save lives


So I assume your saying that we shouldn't use energy from coal fired plants because it costs lives.

In that case we'd better stop using nuclear, wind and solar all have which have recorded plenty of fatalities.


Edited by Locke (16/04/2013 13:11)
_________________________
This post and any other post by Locke is NOT an official forecast & should not be used as such. It's just my opinion & may or may not be backed by sound meteorological data. For official information, refer to Australian Bureau of Meteorology products.

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#1189691 - 16/04/2013 13:27 Re: Coal Fired Power - Dark and dirty side? [Re: SBT]
@_Yasified_shak Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 07/03/2009
Posts: 4219
Loc: El Arish
Originally Posted By: SBT
Originally Posted By: Mt Morgan Water Treatment
“There has never been an uncontrolled spill of water from the open cut pit in the mine’s history,” Hinchliffe said. He went on to say that there were two controlled releases were carried out in March this year, after the public were first informed.

“The water in the open cut pit is not toxic or poisonous and while it contains elevated levels of copper, aluminium, magnesium and other metals along with sulphate salts, these occur naturally....

http://www.miningaustralia.com.au/news/qld-provides-mine-rehab-funding-boost

http://mines.industry.qld.gov.au/safety-and-health/abandoned-mine-lands-program.htm Abandoned Mines Rehab Program

http://mines.industry.qld.gov.au/safety-and-health/mount-morgan.htm Mt Morgan rehab program which started in 2000

http://hancockcoal.com.au/files/alpha-co...20&%20Rehab.pdf

http://www.fba.org.au/news/downloads/cqminingforum_michael-rodgerson.pdf

http://www.claytonutz.com.au/publication...arge_mines.page Progressive Rehab of Mine Sites

http://www.maculrob.com.au/downloads/306...on%20update.pdf

Just some of the efforts being made in Queensland to fix the problems.



But what is the PH of that water that is contained in said open cut pit?
For those that don't know it is around a PH of 2.7 which is comparable for battery acid.




Never been an uncontrolled spill?

Quote:
The abandoned Mount Morgan gold mine, which overflowed for the first time in its history three weeks ago, is still spilling acid and heavy metals into the Dee River.


Quote:
Neal Johansen, who lives near Mount Morgan, says that although waste water has been trickling out of the old mine for years, the damage caused by Oswald dumping 700 mm of rain in the area has been catastrophic. He’s been surveying the river to assess the damage.


Not poisonous?

Quote:
The abandoned Mount Morgan gold mine, which overflowed for the first time in its history three weeks ago, is still spilling acid and heavy metals into the Dee River. Local farmers now say that the Dee River is an unnatural shade of blue-green for a lot of its length, and birds and fish are dying.‘I've never before seen the white sediment on the bottom, which is probably aluminium hydroxide that's now dropped out because it's increased to a pH level where it will actually fall out of suspension,’ Mr Johansen says. ‘I certainly have never seen this before. So that is actually of quite a huge concern I should imagine... 55 km downstream [from the mine].’

A little further downstream from where Mr Johansen has found evidence of low pH levels, farmer Ian Scott has now found dead birds.

‘We saw quite a few dead animals—birds, there’s odd fish, cockatoos, there’s even crows, magpies, peewees,’ Mr Scott says. ‘I’ve probably seen about 20. We saw a shag or waterbird floating past. It was sick—obviously been poisoned.’
_________________________
Why is it in the era of "Time saving" devices, that people are more "Time poor" than ever?

Humans think they are the fabric of society,when they are merely part of the thread.


Top
#1189699 - 16/04/2013 13:58 Re: Coal Fired Power - Dark and dirty side? [Re: Tom1234]
Arnost Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 10/02/2007
Posts: 3909
Originally Posted By: Enrique
Funny how you people cry over a few dead animals yet you don't care about AGW or pollution and its effects on humans, too funny guys.

Also funny that the pro coal guys don't provide any evidence at all to support their positions, yet there is plenty stating how much coal costs in dollars and lives.


And lives! Too funny eh? Pull it back a bit please?

The principally left of centre eco-narcissistic "greens" in their airconditioned homes in front of their PC (powered by taxpayer subsidised LRET and SRES schemes) have absolutely no idea of the damage they are causing with their activism to destroy cheap energy. They will wail and moan "what about the children" when a dodgy model shows the temp will rise by a degree or so by the end of the century... But they will stick their fingers in their ears when faced with the real-world consequences of expensive, or unavailable energy.

Once again! That is the inevitable consequence of state socialism everywhere - see Eastern Europe, Cuba, Venezuela and most obviously North Korea and Haiti or Cuba (Contrast Sth Korea and US/Puerto Rico):



And this is the cost in human terms:

starving in north korea

starving in haiti

starving in cuba

Got it? I think that we (the pro-cheap energy supporters) have the high ground here...
_________________________
“No. Not even in the face of Armageddon. Never compromise” ...

And this of course applies to scientific principles. Never compromise these. Never! [Follow the science and you will be shown correct in the end...]

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#1189708 - 16/04/2013 14:30 Re: Coal Fired Power - Dark and dirty side? [Re: Arnost]
@_Yasified_shak Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 07/03/2009
Posts: 4219
Loc: El Arish

Originally Posted By: Arnost
Got it? I think that we (the pro-cheap energy supporters) have the high ground here...


Moral highground? what do those countries have in common? they are ruled by Merciless dictators.

Originally Posted By: ROM
With wind turbines spread across huge areas of territory there will have to be many hundreds of kilometres of new high voltage power lines built to take that wind energy from the wind farms to the customers and industry.
So if there is such a kill of birds from powerlines already as you claim then the wind industry is going to be completely responsible for all those extra bird deaths from the power lines built specifically for the wind turbine farms as well as the huge number of bird and bat deaths they already cause.


Now if we were Going to build Coal fired power stations in the same area that would require new powerlines to be built i presume you would have no problem with that?
I think all the pro coal supporters really need to take a step back and have a good look at what is really going on and that damage that their striving for "cheap power" is costing, sure the power may be cheap but the damage done at the end will cost a lot more.


Quote:
A study released in August 2010 that examined state pollution data in the United States by the organizations Environmental Integrity Project, the Sierra Club and Earthjustice found that coal ash produced by coal-fired power plants dumped at sites across 21 U.S. states has contaminated ground water with toxic elements. The contaminants including the poisons arsenic and lead.
Arsenic has been shown to cause skin cancer, bladder cancer and lung cancer, and lead damages the nervous system. Coal ash contaminants are also linked to respiratory diseases and other health and developmental problems
, and have disrupted local aquatic life. Coal ash also releases a variety of toxic contaminants into nearby air, posing a health threat to those who breath in fugitive coal dust.
Currently, the EPA does not regulate the disposal of coal ash; regulation is up to the states and the electric power industry has been lobbying to maintain this status quo. Most states require no monitoring of drinking water near coal ash dump sites. The study found an additional 39 contaminated U.S. sites and concluded that the problem of coal ash-caused water contamination is even more extensive in the United States than has been estimated. The study brought to 137 the number of ground water sites across the United States that are contaminated by power plant-produced coal ash.

Mercury contamination

U.S. government scientists tested fish in 291 streams around the country for mercury contamination. They found mercury in every fish tested, according to the study by the U.S. Department of the Interior. They found mercury even in fish of isolated rural waterways. Twenty five percent of the fish tested had mercury levels above the safety levels determined by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency for people who eat the fish regularly. The largest source of mercury contamination in the United States is coal-fueled power plant emissions.

_________________________
Why is it in the era of "Time saving" devices, that people are more "Time poor" than ever?

Humans think they are the fabric of society,when they are merely part of the thread.


Top
#1189718 - 16/04/2013 14:41 Re: Coal Fired Power - Dark and dirty side? [Re: @_Yasified_shak]
Brett Guy Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 05/10/2010
Posts: 5159
Loc: Bently Park, Cairns
In reality this argument is pointless regardless of which side you take. Reason being that untill Renewables can provide the energy required(regardless of cost or 'green credentials') they will play second fiddle to fossil fuels. Why can't people get their heads around the fact that people do not truly care about the environment over their own well being.If anyone says otherwise there is a 99% chance they are lying or can't face the truth.

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#1189727 - 16/04/2013 15:03 Re: Coal Fired Power - Dark and dirty side? [Re: @_Yasified_shak]
Jimmy B Offline
Cloud Gazer

Registered: 08/11/2012
Posts: 5
Loc: Hope Island ( Gold Coast )
Wikipedia has a good link about Coal Ash aka Fly Ash. What it is. It's chemical make up. How its reused to manufacture other products - mainly cement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_ash#Portland_cement

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#1189729 - 16/04/2013 15:16 Re: Coal Fired Power - Dark and dirty side? [Re: @_Yasified_shak]
Arnost Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 10/02/2007
Posts: 3909
Just saw this:

Quote:
The largest source of mercury contamination in the United States is coal-fueled power plant emissions.


Nope - the largest source of domestic mercury contamination is "green" light bulbs. They're darn dangerous things:

Quote:
Before Cleanup
•Have people and pets leave the room.
•Air out the room for 5-10 minutes by opening a window or door to the outdoor environment.
•Shut off the central forced air heating/air-conditioning system, if you have one.
•Collect materials needed to clean up broken bulb:
•stiff paper or cardboard;
•sticky tape;
•damp paper towels or disposable wet wipes (for hard surfaces); and
•a glass jar with a metal lid or a sealable plastic bag.

During Cleanup
•DO NOT VACUUM. Vacuuming is not recommended unless broken glass remains after all other cleanup steps have been taken. Vacuuming could spread mercury-containing powder or mercury vapor.
•Be thorough in collecting broken glass and visible powder. Scoop up glass fragments and powder using stiff paper or cardboard. Use sticky tape, such as duct tape, to pick up any remaining small glass fragments and powder. Place the used tape in the glass jar or plastic bag. See the detailed cleanup instructions for more information, and for differences in cleaning up hard surfaces versus carpeting or rugs.
•Place cleanup materials in a sealable container.

After Cleanup
•Promptly place all bulb debris and cleanup materials, including vacuum cleaner bags, outdoors in a trash container or protected area until materials can be disposed of. Avoid leaving any bulb fragments or cleanup materials indoors.
•Next, check with your local government about disposal requirements in your area, because some localities require fluorescent bulbs (broken or unbroken) be taken to a local recycling center. If there is no such requirement in your area, you can dispose of the materials with your household trash.
•If practical, continue to air out the room where the bulb was broken and leave the heating/air conditioning system shut off for several hours.



http://www2.epa.gov/cfl/cleaning-broken-cfl
_________________________
“No. Not even in the face of Armageddon. Never compromise” ...

And this of course applies to scientific principles. Never compromise these. Never! [Follow the science and you will be shown correct in the end...]

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#1189734 - 16/04/2013 15:24 Re: Coal Fired Power - Dark and dirty side? [Re: Arnost]
Tom1234 Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 08/04/2011
Posts: 1709
Loc: Port Stephens
Originally Posted By: Arnost


Got it? I think that we (the pro-cheap energy supporters) have the high ground here...


You don't have the moral high ground at all. You just cant comprehend that we can replace so called cheap coal with renewables while being affordable and good for the environment.

You fail to grasp the externalities of coal and how expensive it really is to use. Then when shown that wind or solar is cheaper it's always "think of the birds".... rubbish, renewables just don't fit in the AGW denialist vocabulary. Only cheap energy and trying to say that coal is the saviour poor nations. Comapare Chinas GDP per capita with ours and then compare the renewable industries.
GDP/per capita
93 China 5,439
7 Australia 67,039

renewables
China--17.88% of total production
Australia-9.64% of total production

So a second world country can do better than the developed world, hardly seems like coal is the be all and end all.


China 2050 towards to sustainable energy

*Reducing coal proportion in total primary energy
below 50%

*Providing new increasing energy demands mainly by
nuclear and renewable and contributing more than
30% proportion in total primary energy after 2035

http://gcep.stanford.edu/pdfs/RxsY3908kaqwVPacX9DLcQ/niweidou_coal_mar05.pdf


Edited by Greg Sorenson (16/04/2013 17:29)
Edit Reason: personal attack removed

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#1189735 - 16/04/2013 15:28 Re: Coal Fired Power - Dark and dirty side? [Re: @_Yasified_shak]
Tom1234 Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 08/04/2011
Posts: 1709
Loc: Port Stephens
Your research skills are very ordinary Arnost, your rant on green lightbulbs is not supported by anything.

"Sources of mercury. Mercury is an element in the earth's crust. Humans cannot create or destroy mercury. Pure mercury is a liquid metal, sometimes referred to as quicksilver that volatizes readily. It has traditionally been used to make products like thermometers, switches, and some light bulbs.

Mercury is found in many rocks including coal. When coal is burned, mercury is released into the environment. Coal-burning power plants are the largest human-caused source of mercury emissions to the air in the United States, accounting for over 50 percent of all domestic human-caused mercury emissions"

http://www.epa.gov/hg/about.htm


Edited by Enrique (16/04/2013 15:29)

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#1189736 - 16/04/2013 15:29 Re: Coal Fired Power - Dark and dirty side? [Re: @_Yasified_shak]
Brett Guy Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 05/10/2010
Posts: 5159
Loc: Bently Park, Cairns
No one has the moral high ground because no one will do what needs to be done. We are all going to wind up with dislocated shoulders if we don't stop patting ourselves on the back for being so wonderful.

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