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#1189507 - 15/04/2013 12:10 Re: Coal Fired Power - Dark and dirty side? [Re: @_Yasified_shak]
ROM Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 29/01/2007
Posts: 6628
In reference to the apparently so polluting Cockatoo Coal mine in the post above.

Note the distance scale in the bottom LH corner.


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#1189512 - 15/04/2013 13:10 Re: Coal Fired Power - Dark and dirty side? [Re: ROM]
@_Yasified_shak Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 07/03/2009
Posts: 4151
Loc: El Arish
Originally Posted By: ROM
Note the distance scale in the bottom LH corner.


And look at the size of it in comparison to the Township.



A little bit closer and you will also notice how close it is to a water course



the mine may look "small" now......

Quote:
planning is underway for a staged expansion of Baralaba mine and the Company’s nearby exploration grounds.

The operation sits within a larger 550km2 area of Cockatoo Coal exploration projects.


So it will only get bigger.

_________________________
Why is it in the era of "Time saving" devices, that people are more "Time poor" than ever?

Humans think they are the fabric of society,when they are merely part of the thread.


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#1189589 - 15/04/2013 20:26 Re: Coal Fired Power - Dark and dirty side? [Re: @_Yasified_shak]
Brett Guy Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 05/10/2010
Posts: 5096
Loc: Bently Park, Cairns
While I agree that your average coal mine is a scar on the landscape Just how big a scar would a renewable energy plant produce. Oh, and by the way those giant wind turbines are made of steel. Guess what that needs.....Coal. There is only one way to prevent massive negative impacts on the environment caused by human activity. Give up ALL of our comforts and live natural lives. Is anyone willing to do this? Answer...Very, very few.Those that are are have already removed themselves from modern society and I applaud them for having the courage of their convictions. Not me though.Not now anyway.

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#1189597 - 15/04/2013 20:59 Re: Coal Fired Power - Dark and dirty side? [Re: @_Yasified_shak]
Tom1234 Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 08/04/2011
Posts: 1709
Loc: Port Stephens
http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/139141/thomas-n-thompson/choking-on-china


Cars drive on Jianguo Road on a hazy day in Beijing, 2013. (Jason Lee / Courtesy Reuters)

"Carbon dioxide emissions from cars in China are growing exponentially, replacing coal-fired power plants as the major source of pollution in major Chinese cities.



The deniers always fall back on the argument that because we don't live in tree houses and eat moss AGW is fake. If you quickly check other AGW threads the people who support the wholesale use of coal are the denialists of AGW. They deny anything and it's best not to waste your time with these people.

Yes we have built a great society on the back of coal, but guess what ? it's time to move on from that to cleaner energy as our population has exploded and the natural earth systems can't cope with the pollution.



Edited by Seabreeze (15/04/2013 21:19)
Edit Reason: personal remark

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#1189606 - 15/04/2013 22:20 Re: Coal Fired Power - Dark and dirty side? [Re: @_Yasified_shak]
ColdFront Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 29/06/2008
Posts: 18615
Loc: The Beach.
I admire your guts for starting the thread YS. The resulting personal attacks were inevitable. So was the ridiculous argument that because you don't go the 100% green route you are somehow a hypocrite. So you're supposed to make your own nails too? GOLD!!!!! ....and shame on you for not using your forehead to hammer the nails home! What were you thinking?

You are entitled to your opinion and I commend you for resisting the trolls. The reality is however that all the while there is demand for a product it will be sold. Whether legally or otherwise. You don't really think the Americans (and us) are in Afghanistan on a peace mission do you?

O is for oil but also for Opium . Afghanistan produces more opium than any other nation! The world functions on lies. Coca Cola recently removed a chemical from their soft drink along with Pepsi that was found to cause cancer without any fanfare. Coal is a dirty product and attempting to deny it is foolish.


There is a lot of ignorance regarding alternatives and any mention of them will start a war or words. Ultimately hydro power is perhaps the answer or tapping into thermal energy beneath us as it is infinite. However MONEY is the inhibitor. China's demand for coal is insatiable but even they are slowly recognising the negatives and taking steps away from it. But what would they know right?


Meanwhile the Americans still use oil for heating but have nuclear powered warships. Priorities in order?
_________________________
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#1189611 - 15/04/2013 23:35 Re: Coal Fired Power - Dark and dirty side? [Re: @_Yasified_shak]
refstar Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 15/10/2012
Posts: 310
...


Edited by Seabreeze (15/04/2013 23:46)
Edit Reason: trolling

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#1189626 - 16/04/2013 08:45 Re: Coal Fired Power - Dark and dirty side? [Re: refstar]
@_Yasified_shak Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 07/03/2009
Posts: 4151
Loc: El Arish
Thanks for your support CF, this thread was long overdue as the bulk seem to think that Coal fired power is the poster child of society and can do no wrong, but when you look into it coal has it's failings just like any other method of power generation, but the funny thing is no one wants to see or admit those faults.
I suppose it is similar to some parents the cannot see their child as being naughty or not Perfect, in their eyes they are perfect and can do no wrong......

Yes, wind/Solar does have it's short comings like coal fired, but at the end of the day solar/wind is not belching out Tonnes of pollution every day, tonnes of CO2, everyday,particulates, heavy metals, seems all of these things are ok, just so we can have a few “luxuries”!

Then there are the statements like you would have to move back into the forest or jungles so you do not use any of the earths resources to build your house, well the funny thing would be you would be happy living in the jungle with your tribe until one day, some Westerner came along with a bulldozer and said sorry guys we have a permit to explore and mine this area for coal and there is nothing you can do about it,so we are going to have to relocate you to another area, on the bright side we can equippe you with all the modern "luxuries" and you will even have power and it will make your life so much better! But the point is it wouldn't make them happy, the poor people would be happiest where they are doing what they always do without interference from the outside world!

Yes, i agree with your comment on the Opium, why do you think the US Gov fights so hard to control an area? after all even though Drugs are illegal there is still a huge amount of money involved-on BOTH sides.

the Basic method of Coal fired has not changed much over the last 100 years, but the people have, back then there was not as many cars, people, factories and the like, you ask the masses if they would prefer clean air or polluted air in their cities and you know what the response will be, but the funny thing is everyone is like sheep and does not want to do nothing about it they would prefer if SOMEONE ELSE does it.

Renewables may have their short comings but they have come along way in the past decade and will continue to improve all the time, unlike coal which cannot really go anywhere else now.

China is not as slow as people may take them for look at silver, until very recently the were a net exporter of Silver now they are a net importer of Silver, and yet their output of Silver commemorative coins has exploded,so basically what they are doing is buying everyone else’s silver that they want to offload “cheaply” and when the price skyrockets again because supply has tightened they will then start selling their own again
_________________________
Why is it in the era of "Time saving" devices, that people are more "Time poor" than ever?

Humans think they are the fabric of society,when they are merely part of the thread.


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#1189629 - 16/04/2013 09:04 Re: Coal Fired Power - Dark and dirty side? [Re: @_Yasified_shak]
ROM Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 29/01/2007
Posts: 6628
Reality rules.
For those who believe that coal fired power should be banned right now, do your bit.
Go out to your power board, switch off all your mains power, remove all the fuses and drop them into the rubbish bin.
Set your clock, if it's not electric and time yourself to see how long it will take before you are scrabbling in that bin for those fuses.

Yes, I have been there and done that and have seen the past without any electricity or refrigeration or piped water or sealed roads or telecommunications or air travel and all the other trappings of civilisation now taken for granted and demanded by even those who claim they are living the so called simple life.
That was the reality of the life of 70 plus years ago.

And it was without the utter hypocrisy of those on here who claim to be living a simple life and environmentally but contribute nothing to our prosperity but live on the public purse and who in reality would be derelicts in a hovel without access to other's hard work and endeavors in supplying power and water and food and health and facilities and roads and telecommunications and all those items of our modern civilisation they so roundly condemn but continue to hypocritically use themselves to the maximum whenever it suits their purposes.

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#1189632 - 16/04/2013 09:18 Re: Coal Fired Power - Dark and dirty side? [Re: @_Yasified_shak]
Brett Guy Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 05/10/2010
Posts: 5096
Loc: Bently Park, Cairns
At his point in time the only viable option to coal as a power source is Nuclear and IMHO the consequences of that are far worse than what we put up wih from coal. The other major factor that few people take into account when discussing so called 'Fossil fuels', like coal and oil is that these resources are not only used for power. Everything and I mean EVERYTHING we use in our daily lives requires these substances. Either as power in the manufacturing and transportaion or as a major ingrediant in it makeup. While I applaud YS for doing what he can which is more than most of us the simple fact is if we get rid of fossil fuels we stop living our cushy lives. We lose transport-the world shuts down. We lose medicine-We all die.We lose building material-We freeze. etc etc. Check for yourself. Think about one aspect of yourlife and then find out how large a part these substances play in it's existence.If it plays anypart then then that aspect of your life can be considered evil and must be gotten rid of. Ia gree with CF that Hydro and geothermal are the longterm answer for power bu the fact is Fossil fuels are not the cause of deaths. Without it there would not be as many people on the planet today as there are so depending on how you look at it fossil fuels are the cause of survival.

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#1189636 - 16/04/2013 09:43 Re: Coal Fired Power - Dark and dirty side? [Re: @_Yasified_shak]
SBT Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 07/02/2007
Posts: 14230
Loc: Townsville Dry Tropics
Every new and existing mine site in Australia has to have a rehabilitation plan in place and being constantly worked on as the mine progresses the worked area is filled in, environmental scientists move in and the land is refurbished back to as close to natural bushland as possible. We saw several different areas that had be rehabilitated and the ones which had been rehabilitated 3 or more years ago where basically no different to the normal bushland around the mine site.

My wife and I did a coal mine tour at Premier Coal in Collie in WA in January this year.

The mine is an open cut pit up to 300 metres deep in parts. Mostly sand with bands of coffee rock and seams of coal. As part and parcel of the land rehabilitation the next area to be mined is scanned from the air and ground and all major features recorded, (This includes locations of the largest trees etc) the top soil and plants are removed and placed in a suitable area where the plants are kept alive in a nursery, all logs, rocks etc are removed and again stored in an area to be used when the mine progresses past the area the logs where taken from. The overburden is trucked out of the immediate area to a holding area where it sits until the hole is ready to be back filled. After the mine site is back filled it is then refurbished with all native plants, the logs and rocks are replaced and native trees are then replanted. As the mine site goes below the local water table the ground water is pumped out by pumps running 24/7. The water is passed through a series of 7 dams which then use various natural and artificial methods to remove the suspended iron (Iron Chelate) and the water, which by this stage is fit for human consumption, is then fed directly back into the Collie River which has the effect of continuous flushing the river down to the dam where the resulting inflow is released down stream continuously as an overflow. This provides a constant flow of fresh water into the river and wet lands. The upside of this is that the water in the dam can be used both to produce steam via a series of coal fired power stations as well as providing an almost drought proof reliable water supply for the towns and farms in the immediate area.

This is mandated by state and federal law and is now the norm for mine sites. At a separate mine site the resulting open cut area has been turned into a motor sport facility with a life of around 30 years. Once this time has expired the mine is to be turned into a ground water storage area by turning off the pumps and allowing the ground water to fill the pit there by recharging the local ground water supplies.




First stage dam showing water holding area, above that is an area under revegetation and above that
overburden being stored to back fill the next area that has finished being mined.



The pit.


Revegetation at top of photo



Muja Power station in operation - note lack of visible smoke
_________________________
Oct 31mm
2018 Total 774mm






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#1189641 - 16/04/2013 10:04 Re: Coal Fired Power - Dark and dirty side? [Re: ColdFront]
Tom1234 Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 08/04/2011
Posts: 1709
Loc: Port Stephens
Originally Posted By: ColdFront
I admire your guts for starting the thread YS. The resulting personal attacks were inevitable. So was the ridiculous argument that because you don't go the 100% green route you are somehow a hypocrite. So you're supposed to make your own nails too? GOLD!!!!! ....and shame on you for not using your forehead to hammer the nails home! What were you thinking?



Those kinds of arguments are typical in this section of the forum though, it's why there's only like 5 people who consistently post in the section.

It's not only money that's a factor it's also greed and selfishness. People want their cheap plastics made in china and cheap electricity to power their plasmas and LCD TVs without considering any of the externalities. Who cares if people in China have to wear masks, we get cheap products right....

China has more initiative in renewable energy than we do, it's pretty sad really. Just take a look at their solar city, puts us to shame

http://www.chinasolarcity.cn/Html/dezhou/151210479.html

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#1189643 - 16/04/2013 10:20 Re: Coal Fired Power - Dark and dirty side? [Re: Brett Guy]
@_Yasified_shak Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 07/03/2009
Posts: 4151
Loc: El Arish
Originally Posted By: Brett Guy
While I agree that your average coal mine is a scar on the landscape Just how big a scar would a renewable energy plant produce. Oh, and by the way those giant wind turbines are made of steel. Guess what that needs.....Coal. There is only one way to prevent massive negative impacts on the environment caused by human activity. Give up ALL of our comforts and live natural lives. Is anyone willing to do this? Answer...Very, very few.Those that are are have already removed themselves from modern society and I applaud them for having the courage of their convictions. Not me though.Not now anyway.


And how are renewables going to have a chance when people such as yourself are so vehemently opposed to them?

You have to think that "scar on the landscape" will never heal and that land will never be able to be used again........

Ahh yes, the elusive "luxuries"...The elusive "lifestyle"....

Take our old neighbours, he was a welder on 30k a year and she grew hydroponic Tomatoes and earned about 20k a year from it, they were both happy but wanted the “elusive lifestyle”, so they headed over to the Wild west to seek their fortune from the mining boom...Long story short..7 years, he is one of the big wigs at BHP "who doesn't get out of bed for less than $2000 a day now.." and she is a travel agent, they have a 7 level pole house, cars, investment properties,they have everything that they ever wanted, except children and are they happy? no!

She never sees him, he is always overseas,or always working long long hours, when he does come home the don't talk, they don't do anything anymore and last time we heard from them they were not far from separating. all for that "elusive lifestyle' that they thought that they needed. Yes, all that "cushy lifestyle" made them so much more happier.
Most people do not fall into their particular lifestyle but they are not far from it, working long hours,stuck in traffic,have to take that important call, never seeing their family, buying useless junk they don't need,mountains of debt... yes from where i sit that lifestyle looks oh so much better....not.

ROM we have windup clocks here, they are brilliant, no need to reset when the power goes out and none of the electromagnetic radiation right next to your head while you are sleeping.
_________________________
Why is it in the era of "Time saving" devices, that people are more "Time poor" than ever?

Humans think they are the fabric of society,when they are merely part of the thread.


Top
#1189648 - 16/04/2013 10:48 Re: Coal Fired Power - Dark and dirty side? [Re: @_Yasified_shak]
Locke Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 27/12/2007
Posts: 4481
Loc: Brisbane
How many lives are saved by access to the cheap electricty from coal fired power plants.

Before you ramble on about the deaths caused by coal fired power perhaps you might want to look at the mortality rates in countries without ready access to that cheap energy.

You think your own tokenistic approach to living "green" represents what it would really be like if the world was without coal fired power. I guess thats what happens when idealism trumps rational thinking.

Oh and when you start advocating a course of action that would potentially cost millions of lives, grow some balls and expect some debate.
_________________________
This post and any other post by Locke is NOT an official forecast & should not be used as such. It's just my opinion & may or may not be backed by sound meteorological data. For official information, refer to Australian Bureau of Meteorology products.

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#1189650 - 16/04/2013 10:52 Re: Coal Fired Power - Dark and dirty side? [Re: SBT]
@_Yasified_shak Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 07/03/2009
Posts: 4151
Loc: El Arish
Originally Posted By: SBT
Every new and existing mine site in Australia has to have a rehabilitation plan in place and being constantly worked on as the mine progresses the worked area is filled in, environmental scientists move in and the land is refurbished back to as close to natural bushland as possible. We saw several different areas that had be rehabilitated and the ones which had been rehabilitated 3 or more years ago where basically no different to the normal bushland around the mine site.



Not completely true there,


Looks inviting doesn't it? nice place to go for a swim? Well basically if you hopped in there you would not make it to the other side, as the water containing in the old Mount Morgan open cut is the equivalent of BATTERY ACID! Look at the creeks flowing down stream from the open cut, they are stained yellow.



Also who picks up the tab from all the rehabilitation work? and it is not always, the miners, like Mount Morgan it is Handled by the government thru tax payes money.
Just like other min sites where the owners have gone bust... either they are left to rot or the tax payer has to pick up the tab....

Quote:
The Dee River in Queensland is being killed by toxic water from an old gold mine. Mount Morgan is one of thousands of abandoned and unregulated mine sites, many of which are leaking contaminated ‘legacy water’ into river catchments.


Whittenoom? one of the biggest blytes on the Australian landscape an abandoned asbestos mine....



_________________________
Why is it in the era of "Time saving" devices, that people are more "Time poor" than ever?

Humans think they are the fabric of society,when they are merely part of the thread.


Top
#1189653 - 16/04/2013 11:05 Re: Coal Fired Power - Dark and dirty side? [Re: @_Yasified_shak]
refstar Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 15/10/2012
Posts: 310
hang on a second - Mt Morgan is a gold mine, you are talking about Coal mines. Different subject, last time I looked gold wasn't primarily used to generate power!!!!

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#1189654 - 16/04/2013 11:06 Re: Coal Fired Power - Dark and dirty side? [Re: Locke]
refstar Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 15/10/2012
Posts: 310
Originally Posted By: Locke
How many lives are saved by access to the cheap electricty from coal fired power plants.

Before you ramble on about the deaths caused by coal fired power perhaps you might want to look at the mortality rates in countries without ready access to that cheap energy.

You think your own tokenistic approach to living "green" represents what it would really be like if the world was without coal fired power. I guess thats what happens when idealism trumps rational thinking.

Oh and when you start advocating a course of action that would potentially cost millions of lives, grow some balls and expect some debate.


Hear hear!

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#1189656 - 16/04/2013 11:11 Re: Coal Fired Power - Dark and dirty side? [Re: @_Yasified_shak]
Brett Guy Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 05/10/2010
Posts: 5096
Loc: Bently Park, Cairns
Originally Posted By: @_Yasified_shak
Originally Posted By: Brett Guy
While I agree that your average coal mine is a scar on the landscape Just how big a scar would a renewable energy plant produce. Oh, and by the way those giant wind turbines are made of steel. Guess what that needs.....Coal. There is only one way to prevent massive negative impacts on the environment caused by human activity. Give up ALL of our comforts and live natural lives. Is anyone willing to do this? Answer...Very, very few.Those that are are have already removed themselves from modern society and I applaud them for having the courage of their convictions. Not me though.Not now anyway.


And how are renewables going to have a chance when people such as yourself are so vehemently opposed to them?

You have to think that "scar on the landscape" will never heal and that land will never be able to be used again........

Ahh yes, the elusive "luxuries"...The elusive "lifestyle"....

Take our old neighbours, he was a welder on 30k a year and she grew hydroponic Tomatoes and earned about 20k a year from it, they were both happy but wanted the “elusive lifestyle”, so they headed over to the Wild west to seek their fortune from the mining boom...Long story short..7 years, he is one of the big wigs at BHP "who doesn't get out of bed for less than $2000 a day now.." and she is a travel agent, they have a 7 level pole house, cars, investment properties,they have everything that they ever wanted, except children and are they happy? no!

She never sees him, he is always overseas,or always working long long hours, when he does come home the don't talk, they don't do anything anymore and last time we heard from them they were not far from separating. all for that "elusive lifestyle' that they thought that they needed. Yes, all that "cushy lifestyle" made them so much more happier.
Most people do not fall into their particular lifestyle but they are not far from it, working long hours,stuck in traffic,have to take that important call, never seeing their family, buying useless junk they don't need,mountains of debt... yes from where i sit that lifestyle looks oh so much better....not.

ROM we have windup clocks here, they are brilliant, no need to reset when the power goes out and none of the electromagnetic radiation right next to your head while you are sleeping.


I think you are misunderstanding my argument YS. I am not opposed to renewables. Indeed I am all for them if they can meet the requirements of our society and will have fwer negative impacts than fossil fuels. Most however don't. Certainly not wind or solar on an industrial scale. I do however believe it is hypocritical to live off fossil fuel deposits and thenclaim they are evil. Now, everyone is hypocritical at some stage and as long as they admit to the hypocrisy it is acceptable because at least they understand it. The question I always ask(and for which I never get an honest answer mind you), is that if these things are so evil then why do those that think they are evil happily utilise them and their benifits every day of their lives. I would love to see the a world without mines or pollution or farms devestating the natural environment or oil rigs in pristine areas that will eventually (guaranteed), cause enviromental destruction but I'll be buggered if I am going to give up my lifestyle to achieve that. The only difference between me and those that argue against these things is that I am honest about the fact that I accept the consequences for that lifestyle. Everyone that lives in our society accepts those consequences. Many may say they don't but they don't give up the perks of society do they? If people were honest with themselves they would admit that.

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#1189657 - 16/04/2013 11:24 Re: Coal Fired Power - Dark and dirty side? [Re: Locke]
@_Yasified_shak Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 07/03/2009
Posts: 4151
Loc: El Arish
Originally Posted By: Locke
How many lives are saved by access to the cheap electricty from coal fired power plants.

Before you ramble on about the deaths caused by coal fired power perhaps you might want to look at the mortality rates in countries without ready access to that cheap energy.

You think your own tokenistic approach to living "green" represents what it would really be like if the world was without coal fired power. I guess thats what happens when idealism trumps rational thinking.

Oh and when you start advocating a course of action that would potentially cost millions of lives, grow some balls and expect some debate.


Seems like Double standards? so it is fine to take lives because of coal fired power to save lives,Just to have coal fired power? what is your point? Shouldn't we then be embracing other methods, safer ways to generate your beloved power, that don't put the lives of millions of people in danger every year?

Maybe you should look in the mirror before you cast aspersions?
I am quite happy with my reflection.
_________________________
Why is it in the era of "Time saving" devices, that people are more "Time poor" than ever?

Humans think they are the fabric of society,when they are merely part of the thread.


Top
#1189658 - 16/04/2013 11:25 Re: Coal Fired Power - Dark and dirty side? [Re: @_Yasified_shak]
Bill Illis Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 11/07/2010
Posts: 1003

For whatever reason, I have a "dread" emotional reaction to this image.





Yet these seem almost serene.









I'm just saying there are "reactions" to images versus what is really going on.

The first picture is probably cropped/an unrealistic zoom in some manner. The smokestack pictures are mostly inert N2 gas and water vapour. The coal mine pits are far from where anyone lives and yes they can be reclaimed after.

----------------

There is not enough wood on the planet for colder latitudes to make it through even one winter. 2 billion people would cut down every tree within 500 miles in just 1 winter (you would not believe what my backyard looks like right now compared to Yasified_shak's eden-scape yard - nobody where I live would make it through the winter without significant home/workplace heating, not a single person).

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#1189660 - 16/04/2013 11:26 Re: Coal Fired Power - Dark and dirty side? [Re: @_Yasified_shak]
SBT Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 07/02/2007
Posts: 14230
Loc: Townsville Dry Tropics
I said new and existing mine sites, not abandon ones.

As for Whittenoom it is gone - it was completely removed off the face of the planet. They spent millions rehabilitating the land after the removal of all infrastructure and access to the mine site and old township is strictly controlled. The pictures you have posted are of buildings that no longer exist but you already knew that. You skew facts to suit yourself and your sad conspiracy theories. Asbestos is a natural product - you know one of those things you continually bang on about being good for you.

Once again you equate earning a very good wage as being unhappy. Not true. I know quite a few people in the mining industry who are earning a huge income and are quite happy. They have paid off their homes, taken their kids on world trips, they are given the best education available, clothes, cars, land and they have set up trusts so their kids have a good start in life and they pay a hell of a lot in tax each fortnight. - They buy locally which helps out retailers, they buy food, fuel, cars, real estate, clothes, travel, pay rates and all the other stuff that normal people do. I also know at least one person who made a fortune via hydroponics - of course getting caught meant he did some serious jail time though.

You just can't get your head around that earning money is not evil and working in the mining industry isn't a crime against humanity.
_________________________
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2018 Total 774mm






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