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#1154582 - 02/01/2013 16:24 Re: Developing an Understanding of the Earth’s Climate System [Re: Seira]
snafu Offline
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Originally Posted By: -Cosmic- (naz)
For Information Only:

Suggestion: type “The Greenhouse Effect Revisited” in Google. The first link will probably go to a blog. I acknowledge that this not published literature, but some of the ideas presented (and visited) seem very relevant to this topic discussion smile .

Just re-reading some of your posts Cosmic. AFAIK, nobody from either side of the fence has refuted or published a rebuttal for the above 'paper'.

EDIT - Sorry, my mistake. The paper I was referring to is "A Discussion on the Absence of a Measurable Greenhouse Effect" which can be found on the PSI web site.
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#1154625 - 02/01/2013 19:14 Re: Developing an Understanding of the Earth’s Climate System [Re: snafu]
Seira Offline
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Originally Posted By: snafu
Originally Posted By: -Cosmic- (naz)
For Information Only:

Suggestion: type “The Greenhouse Effect Revisited” in Google. The first link will probably go to a blog. I acknowledge that this not published literature, but some of the ideas presented (and visited) seem very relevant to this topic discussion smile .

Just re-reading some of your posts Cosmic. AFAIK, nobody from either side of the fence has refuted or published a rebuttal for the above 'paper'.

EDIT - Sorry, my mistake. The paper I was referring to is "A Discussion on the Absence of a Measurable Greenhouse Effect" which can be found on the PSI web site.

What?

Could you possibly offer your understanding of the link, of what is discussed smile ?


Edited by -Cosmic- (naz) (02/01/2013 19:16)
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#1154959 - 04/01/2013 11:18 Re: Developing an Understanding of the Earth’s Climate System [Re: Seira]
Seira Offline
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Here’s a perspective in the previous link quote, in short smile .

Quote:
This is very important for the greenhouse effect, since you will essentially never become “saturated” and thus you will keep getting warming with more and more CO2.

While I am non-committal on the above quote/information, it does highlight (for me, in terms of understanding the physics) aspects of the greenhouse effect which may not otherwise be considered. The quote is also somewhat concerning as it comes from a different perspective on the logarithmic nature of carbon dioxide’s contribution to air temperatures via the greenhouse effect.

This is more about a matter of understanding what’s implied by the quote (that thermal saturation of carbon dioxide’s absorption bands and their wings can be approached)…and is not meant to be scaremongering or the like, but rather informative.

In short, in the link (to a blog post) it was detailed how once main bands approach optical opacity within the lower atmosphere (using carbon dioxide as the example), the wings of these main bands become more affected; a “fill in” effect.

As the gap between optical saturation and the degree of actual absorption is a near logarithmic function (per the link), this implies the lower atmosphere with respect to non-condensable greenhouse gases such as methane and carbon dioxide will not become opaque in thermal spectral regions. By opaque I mean a given greenhouse gas cannot physically absorb anymore heat with emitting energy or interacting with other gases. The link clearly indicates the ability of greenhouse gases to absorb thermal energy diminishes exponentially with bandwidth distance from main peaks.

If this is so (and to reiterate I am non-committal here), we can continue to add greenhouse gases (of any sort) to the atmosphere, and the thermal opacity (in corresponding infrared spectral bands) will not be reached. It is then crucial to ascertain what the upper logarithmic limited of non-condensable greenhouse gases might be, or to be more explicit about what current knowledge of it is!


Edited by -Cosmic- (naz) (04/01/2013 11:21)
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#1154964 - 04/01/2013 11:32 Re: Developing an Understanding of the Earth’s Climate System [Re: Seira]
Seira Offline
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Error in the above post: "with emitting" was intended to be "without emitting".
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#1156969 - 09/01/2013 22:49 Re: Developing an Understanding of the Earth’s Climate System [Re: Seira]
Seira Offline
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#1169116 - 30/01/2013 14:53 Re: Developing an Understanding of the Earth’s Climate System [Re: Seira]
Seira Offline
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An updated old reference - pre-2004 (for information) smile :

Ref: Earth's Atmospheric Structure
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#1178823 - 01/03/2013 14:22 Re: Developing an Understanding of the Earth’s Climate System [Re: Seira]
Seira Offline
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I had an old link to information purporting a lag-response of 6 years in the thermal inertia of a surface well-mixed 90-m layer [of the oceans] to the temperature response to an instantaneous change in climate, only the link appears to have become redundant or no longer exists. The following is an updated link containing the same information which I have just found: The Role of the Oceans in Climate smile .
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#1180062 - 03/03/2013 22:50 Re: Developing an Understanding of the Earth’s Climate System [Re: Seira]
Seira Offline
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#1180276 - 04/03/2013 16:04 Re: Developing an Understanding of the Earth’s Climate System [Re: Seira]
Seira Offline
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Hypothesis of Climate Variability and Flux, 4th March 2013

#987737 - 05-05-2011 09:51 PM:

Originally Posted By: -Cosmic- (naz)
Originally Posted By: Arnost
Yes the thermal capacity of the oceans...

Thermal inertia - momentum.

Edit:

A response in the thermal inertia through a change in the temperature gradient associated with the [atmospheric] sub-tropical-to-mid-latitudinal ridge could significantly alter rainfall...the [inertial] response - in the ocean - would be due to a delay (lag [of years]) in the effects of solar forcing.

[] after "lag" Added.

The thermal inertia of the oceans (the phase or mode of a phenomenon – PDO, El Nino, La Nina, NAO, etc.) – the direction of flux of the [surface] ambient ocean temperature [through ocean-atmosphere coupling], and the relationship between this and the thermal capacity of the oceans associated with the absorption of heat.

#1119556 - 11-08-2012 02:48 PM:

Originally Posted By: -Cosmic- (naz)
The net consequence is a possible climate-scale dependence of glacial-interglacial periods on first solar heating (leading to evapotranspiration, with additional effects due to a thermal expansion (inertia) of the oceans), and secondly the consequences of evapotranspiration (latent heat flux and clouds), borne by the corresponding changes in temperature, pressure and humidity.

Phase or mode of atmospheric phenomena --
=> direction and magnitude of flux of that mode
=> solar heating (evapotranspiration)
=> delayed response of atmosphere due to inertia and heat capacity [of oceans]
=> change in flux
=> latent heat and clouds
=> change in weather / climate variables.
=> change in phase or mode of atmospheric phenomenon or phenomena.


Edited by -Cosmic- (naz) (04/03/2013 16:11)
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#1182413 - 10/03/2013 13:01 Re: Developing an Understanding of the Earth’s Climate System [Re: Seira]
Seira Offline
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Quote:
There continues to be efforts to reduce uncertainties and improve estimates of present-day global volcanic CO2 emissions, but there is little doubt among volcanic gas scientists that the anthropogenic CO2 emissions dwarf global volcanic CO2 emissions.

Source.
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#1185213 - 21/03/2013 21:28 Re: Developing an Understanding of the Earth’s Climate System [Re: Seira]
Seira Offline
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Quote:
The validity that we attach to scientific theories as representing realities of the physical world is to be contrasted with the facile invalidation implied by the expression, "It's only a theory." For example, it is unlikely that a person will step off a tall building on the assumption that they will not fall, because "Gravity is only a theory."

Source.
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#1188988 - 11/04/2013 21:59 Re: Developing an Understanding of the Earth’s Climate System [Re: Seira]
Seira Offline
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Divergent global precipitation changes induced by natural versus anthropogenic forcing

Ref: Nature 493, 656–659 (31 January 2013) doi:10.1038/nature11784.
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#1189391 - 14/04/2013 11:01 Re: Developing an Understanding of the Earth’s Climate System [Re: Seira]
Seira Offline
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Registered: 27/08/2003
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Loc: Adelaide Hills.
The following is (what I consider to be) one of the most comprehensive, down-to-earth and constructive links on the facts vs. the myths of the debate over anthropogenic global warming I have found to date. While the link is dated circa 1998, it still seems quite relevant.

Future Climate Changes - Myth and Reality

Any updates welcome smile .
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#1189546 - 15/04/2013 17:13 Re: Developing an Understanding of the Earth’s Climate System [Re: Seira]
Seira Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 27/08/2003
Posts: 7082
Loc: Adelaide Hills.
An Observed Connection between the North Atlantic Oscillation and the Madden–Julian Oscillation

Ref: Lin, Hai, Gilbert Brunet, Jacques Derome, 2009: An Observed Connection between the North Atlantic Oscillation and the Madden–Julian Oscillation. J. Climate, 22, 364–380.

European Climate Extremes and the North Atlantic Oscillation

Ref: Scaife, Adam A., Chris K. Folland, Lisa V. Alexander, Anders Moberg, Jeff R. Knight, 2008: European Climate Extremes and the North Atlantic Oscillation. J. Climate, 21, 72–83.
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#1191065 - 24/04/2013 22:47 Re: Developing an Understanding of the Earth’s Climate System [Re: Seira]
Seira Offline
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Registered: 27/08/2003
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Ocean Response and Feedback to the SST Dipole in the Tropical Atlantic
Ref: Joyce, Terrence M., Claude Frankignoul, Jiayan Yang, Helen E. Phillips, 2004: Ocean Response and Feedback to the SST Dipole in the Tropical Atlantic*. J. Phys. Oceanogr., 34, 2525–2540.

Brief Analysis/Comment:

Note the first sentence of the abstract – “The equatorial SST dipole represents a mode of climate variability in the tropical Atlantic Ocean that is closely tied to the cross-equatorial flow in the atmosphere, from the cold to the warm hemisphere” – or trade winds associated with changes in pressures, evaporation, and thus isolation (incoming solar radiation). In other words, it seems from this link alone, isolation from the Sun has a potentially major impact on SST anomalies (and evaporation rates) in the tropical Atlantic Ocean, and thus the trade winds. [Evaporation affects the air pressure through latent heat flux, which appears to be a major factor in determining rainfall].

This represents:

=> solar heating (evapotranspiration)
=> delayed response of atmosphere due to inertia and heat capacity [of oceans]
=> change in flux
=> latent heat and clouds

From an earlier hypothesis.

I hope this is informative smile .


Edited by -Cosmic- (naz) (24/04/2013 22:48)
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#1191068 - 24/04/2013 22:49 Re: Developing an Understanding of the Earth’s Climate System [Re: Seira]
LittleDavey83 Offline
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Registered: 16/12/2005
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Loc: Coral Cove, QLD
Cheers for your work on this stuff Naz, you're throwing out some very interesting papers - keep up the good work!

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#1192372 - 02/05/2013 10:13 Re: Developing an Understanding of the Earth’s Climate System [Re: Seira]
Seira Offline
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Registered: 27/08/2003
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An abrupt drop in Northern Hemisphere sea surface temperature around 1970

Ref: Nature. 2010 Sep 23;467(7314):444-7. doi: 10.1038/nature09394.
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#1192511 - 02/05/2013 20:53 Re: Developing an Understanding of the Earth’s Climate System [Re: Seira]
Seira Offline
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#1192515 - 02/05/2013 21:36 Re: Developing an Understanding of the Earth’s Climate System [Re: Seira]
Arnost Offline
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Registered: 10/02/2007
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Originally Posted By: -Cosmic- (naz)


Yes - it is I feel a sorely under-researched issue. A couple of posters over the years have mentioned this, and in particular the possible interaction with UV and Ozone, and decrease in carbon dioxide uptake by the oceans.

I did a post on just this some 6 years ago: My post April 12 2008
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#1192778 - 05/05/2013 11:40 Re: Developing an Understanding of the Earth’s Climate System [Re: Arnost]
Seira Offline
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Registered: 27/08/2003
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Originally Posted By: Arnost
Originally Posted By: -Cosmic- (naz)


Yes - it is I feel a sorely under-researched issue. A couple of posters over the years have mentioned this, and in particular the possible interaction with UV and Ozone, and decrease in carbon dioxide uptake by the oceans.

I did a post on just this some 6 years ago

Cannot access the webpage - getting Malware Warning (I don't know why).


Edited by -Cosmic- (naz) (05/05/2013 11:40)
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