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#1195874 - 27/05/2013 14:17 Re: The Alternative Energy Scam? [Re: ROM]
retired weather man Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 01/07/2007
Posts: 4792
Loc: Wynnum
Looks like those of us on pensions ( more so renters like us ) and unable to afford panels will continue to subsidize the already rich with Can Do's latest edict of now PERMANENT annual increases of $365 per annum ( $1 per day ) on top of the annual CPI driven increases.

Since semi privatization in Qld and the Carbon Tax, power use has dropped which was the intention and to " to save the world ".

However companies now complain they are losing money, hence the need for annual top ups, purely for their already fat bottom lines.

If the Govt were serious about " saving the world " they would use the carbon tax, not to subsidize high use companies, but to PROVIDE solar panels for all households, and so level out the playing field a bit..
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#1195887 - 27/05/2013 15:46 Re: The Alternative Energy Scam? [Re: ROM]
ROM Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 29/01/2007
Posts: 6628
From the UK's Mail on Line

Revealed: The EU's great green U-turn on policy that is sending energy bills soaring across the continent

*The EU is now urging members to begin 'fracking' for cheap natural gas

*Opposition from green activists had previously stalled efforts to start

*It comes as MPs prepare to debate the final stages of the Energy Bill

The European Union is quietly taking steps to shred the ‘green agenda’ responsible for rocketing energy bills across the continent.
It is now urging members to restore Europe’s competitiveness by ‘fracking’ for cheap natural gas from shale, instead of pushing ‘renewable’ energy subsidies which cost consumers billions of pounds.
The policy shift was unveiled last week at a Brussels summit attended by David Cameron.
It comes as MPs prepare to debate the final stages of the Energy Bill when Parliament returns after its Whitsun recess.

In its current form, the Bill will see subsidies for windfarms and solar panels triple to £7.6 billion a year – thus increasing the cost of ‘green’ levies and taxes which already add £100 a year to the average household fuel bill.

But Tory MP Tim Yeo, who was paid a total of £245,000 in the last two financial years by green energy and transport companies, has moved an amendment which would increase this burden still further.
It would force the UK to set a binding target of cutting the carbon dioxide emitted by generating electricity by 90 per cent by 2030 – a goal many experts regard as impossible.

But Labour and at least 16 Tories and Liberal Democrats have pledged to support it, and it may well become law.
The EU’s about-turn has been prompted by news that electricity prices in Europe have risen by 40 per cent since 2005, while those in the US have fallen by 10 per cent.
The main reason for America’s cheap energy is its booming shale gas industry.
Many EU nations – including Britain – have their own vast reserves of shale gas, but fierce opposition from green activists has stalled efforts to extract it.
But after last week’s summit, EU leaders issued a statement saying ‘the supply of affordable and sustainable energy to our economies is crucial’.
They added that the EU would support ‘systematic recourse to on-shore and off-shore indigenous resources’ – a reference to shale.

Brussels observers say the summit reflected a shift away from policies aimed primarily at cutting emissions, and towards a drive for cheaper energy.
German MEP Holger Krahmer said: ‘The EU is starting to realise we achieve very little by setting targets for ourselves when the rest of the world won’t, while rising bills are plunging families into poverty.’
Ironically, Energy Secretary Ed Davey will tomorrow urge his European counterparts to cut emissions by 50 per cent by 2030.


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#1195893 - 27/05/2013 16:16 Re: The Alternative Energy Scam? [Re: ROM]
SBT Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 07/02/2007
Posts: 14230
Loc: Townsville Dry Tropics
The rest of the planet is increasing coal fired power production because it is:
a) the cheapest option
b) readily available
c) reliable
d) a known process with a future
e) easy to build and maintain
f) socially acceptable to the vast majority of the public
g) huge reserves of coal still available
h) using existing coal fired power stations they can be converted to produce liquid fuels from coal
I) Can be modified to use gas as part of the coal burning process
j) Following EPA standards there is a vast reduction in pollution
k) Valuable by products such as fly ash which is used for cement manufacture, ground stabilisation processes and road building.
l) Profitable business model even with subsidies
m) employs vast numbers of people in mining, transport, support, shipping etc who all pay taxes and they spend in all areas of Australian retail.
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#1195904 - 27/05/2013 17:29 Re: The Alternative Energy Scam? [Re: @_Yasified_shak]
Petros Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 30/12/2002
Posts: 7473
Loc: Maffra, Central Gippsland, Vi...
Originally Posted By: @_Yasified_shak
Originally Posted By: ROM
I would suggest that the people running the grid know a damn sight more than yasi could ever get his mind around about grid operations and the problems brought on by back
feeding of highly irregular amounts of power from household solar panels into a grid that was only designed for power to flow one way and thats to and not from the consumer.


I think i would Know a fair bit more about solar panels than you may think.
You must have your wires crossed grin and are thinking about DC voltage, that only flows one way......
AC power or alternating current, it flows in both directions......

Originally Posted By: ROM
With charges being almost entirely base on electricity usage and solar panel owners paying very small usage charges due to the power from their heavily subsidised solar panels but still expecting and demanding that the full supply of power be there and immediately on line if and when they demand it, the main cost of maintaining those lines even to the solar panel owners then falls onto those who do not have solar panels or can't afford them or are renting in the form of much higher power usage charges..


That again is a copout.... the tariff that electricity providers charge usually covers their cost of producing power (extraction,production,plant,wages and PROFIT) the supply charge/fee is there to cover the cost of maintenance,repairs and upgrades to the network.

Originally Posted By: ROM
There are after all a hell of a lot of people out there without solar panels who will say that you were wealthy enough to afford those panels in the first place and got all the benefits in reduced power charges which we had to pay extra for so now is the time to cough up on all those government / tax payer subsidies you got for those panels.


Why are they “wealthy” just because they have purchased solar panels? Are people wealthy because they own a car? a motorbike? the latest iphone? solar is a lot cheaper than it used to be and will still be producing power in 25 years time unlike your car which has been replaced 3 or 4 times (or more) in that same time frame, or add up the cost of new mobile phones over the next 25 years.... once you have made the initial outlay for solar it will pay for itself and save you or make you money down the track..

Why should people be penalized? people out there made the conscious decision to install solar panels so they would reduce the amount of power they consumer therefore reduce their bill, they have made a monetary commitment out of their own pocket to install solar power to SAVE them money, why should they be penalized? Should you have to cough up extra because you have a car? should you have to cough up extra because you still have a landline phone?


You would rather just spend your time complaining about solar panels than actually doing something about it! you may find that they even save YOU money!

Originally Posted By: Simmosturf
And at what cost are those batteries? I've been told they are 7 grand each and you require 2 of them in case one dies?? Their life span is between 7-10 years? Please enlighten me!!!


like with anything batteries can vary widely from basic to the absolute best. now for 7 grand they would have to be gold plated!
You can get 2 volt gell cell batteries that are in the of over 2000Ah that are between 1500-2000 (depending on where you buy them) and you would either need 6 for a 12 volt system of 12 for a 24 volt system and at that Amp hr it is a pretty decent sized system power wise!.
Batteries on average will last between 7-15 years depending on how you treat them if you look after them, and if you don't cycle them to deeply they can last much longer, there is another type i think it has nickel in it (from memory) and they are supposed to have a life span of 25 years +

When i bought my batteries i bought 6 and they cost me $250 each....

Quote:
My brother in law is a sparky and he told me that if one panel in a network doesn't receive adequate sunlight, the whole system wont produce? Correct me if I'm wrong please!!!!


Not necessarily, there are many different type of panels out there and some are designed for say southern areas, that don't have the same light intensity and are designed to operate at lower light levels and if one of the panels are shaded the others will still work to full capacity.

Most have blocking diodes to power flow in the wrong direction.

Quote:
Originally Posted By: Petros
Tasmanian coal fired generation sent to Vic via Basslink! – in your weird little dreams. You obviously know nothing about the Australian electrical system, please just avoid embarrassing yourself and avoid commenting about “how you think things are”.

Originally Posted By: Petros
hence loss is proportional to distance to consumer. NOT a good argument for wind generators, as sited in SA/Vic eh?

Originally Posted By: Petros
Re post#589 you post that SBT said"Yet there is a cable between Victoria and Tasmania to pump "coal fired power" between Vic and Tassie or Vica versa, or the Murray link cable.....so no matter what there is going to be power losses"
It was YOU that said that Yasi, seems there is now limit to low stoops in your camp!


In my original reply i said “coal fired power” smirk it is funny though you state “NOT a good argument for wind generators,” like that wind turbines are going to loose all of the produced power sending the electricity over distance, yet when it comes to sending “coal fired power” over a distance then the loss is irrelevant?

Just for future reference Tasmania actually exported 989 GWh of power to Victoria.
Another interesting statistic about Tassie is they have...
2274.45 MW of hydro
142.5 MW Wind
730MW of natural gas power.
so it looks like only a bit over 30% of the states power comes from Fossils and the rest comes from renewable sources, and they are even exporting power to victoria.




Yes, you did say coal fired power Tasmania into Victoria as you posted and we’ve all read.

Then you present to us all the fact that Tassie has no coal fired generation, despite being advised of that (“Tasmanian coal fired generation sent to Vic via Basslink! – in your weird little dreams. You obviously know nothing about the Australian electrical system, please just avoid embarrassing yourself and avoid commenting about “how you think things are”).

Nice little twist to try to disguise your error by “switching” to the line loss/remotely sited wind generator discussion. A totally separate issue. Luckily readers here are not as dumb as you presume.

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#1195917 - 27/05/2013 18:07 Re: The Alternative Energy Scam? [Re: ROM]
Petros Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 30/12/2002
Posts: 7473
Loc: Maffra, Central Gippsland, Vi...
Yasi: re your post "Just for future reference Tasmania actually exported 989 GWh of power to Victoria.
Another interesting statistic about Tassie is they have...
2274.45 MW of hydro
142.5 MW Wind
730MW of natural gas power.
so it looks like only a bit over 30% of the states power comes from Fossils and the rest comes from renewable sources, and they are even exporting power to victoria............"

Yasi. When did this 989 GWh export occur? Last night?, This year to date? Since the inception of the submerged DC link to Victoria?

So assuming you know “a bit about power” your posts purports your understanding that:

1. Tasmania is a power exporting state into Victoria, and it has “actually exported 989 GWh of power to Victoria”
2. Tasmanians only consume power with “….only a bit over 30% of the states power comes from Fossils….”

Yasi the Basslink Vic-Tassie interconnector can flow both ways.

The interconnector flows are published weekly here:

http://www.aemo.com.au/Electricity/Resou...Bulletin-Graphs

As you can see from last week, even with Tassie taking advantage of the relatively better prices on the mainland at present (water is free to release down there now ahead of winter), they still are very happy to switch and consume mainland power. And guess what that is generated from!!

If you go back 2 years before the rains “that we were NEVER supposed to get again” filled the hydro coffers down there; Tassie sucked on the mainland coal fired generation like a new born calf! Go back even 2 months and you will see that Victoria pushes heaps down there when Vics prices are low.

Clutching at straws as usual.

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#1195922 - 27/05/2013 18:26 Re: The Alternative Energy Scam? [Re: Petros]
@_Yasified_shak Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 07/03/2009
Posts: 4152
Loc: El Arish
Quote:
Nice little twist to try to disguise your error by “switching” to the line loss/remotely sited wind generator discussion. A totally separate issue. Luckily readers here are not as dumb as you presume.

No,they are not, all they have to do is go back to post no #1195589 and you/they will see that my reply is a direct reply to yours (see below)
What was that about the switch track smirk
Originally Posted By: Original comments from post no#1195589
Originally Posted By: Petros
hence loss is proportional to distance to consumer. NOT a good argument for wind generators, as sited in SA/Vic eh?
Originally Posted By: @_Yasified_shak
Yet there is a cable between Victoria and Tasmania to pump "coal fired power" between Vic and Tassie or Vica versa, or the Murray link cable.....so no matter what there is going to be power losses.
_________________________
Why is it in the era of "Time saving" devices, that people are more "Time poor" than ever?

Humans think they are the fabric of society,when they are merely part of the thread.


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#1195925 - 27/05/2013 18:40 Re: The Alternative Energy Scam? [Re: Petros]
@_Yasified_shak Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 07/03/2009
Posts: 4152
Loc: El Arish
Originally Posted By: Petros
Yasi: re your post "Just for future reference Tasmania actually exported 989 GWh of power to Victoria.
Another interesting statistic about Tassie is they have...
2274.45 MW of hydro
142.5 MW Wind
730MW of natural gas power.
so it looks like only a bit over 30% of the states power comes from Fossils and the rest comes from renewable sources, and they are even exporting power to victoria............"

Yasi. When did this 989 GWh export occur? Last night?, This year to date? Since the inception of the submerged DC link to Victoria?

So assuming you know “a bit about power” your posts purports your understanding that:

1. Tasmania is a power exporting state into Victoria, and it has “actually exported 989 GWh of power to Victoria”
2. Tasmanians only consume power with “….only a bit over 30% of the states power comes from Fossils….”

Yasi the Basslink Vic-Tassie interconnector can flow both ways.

The interconnector flows are published weekly here:

http://www.aemo.com.au/Electricity/Resou...Bulletin-Graphs

As you can see from last week, even with Tassie taking advantage of the relatively better prices on the mainland at present (water is free to release down there now ahead of winter), they still are very happy to switch and consume mainland power. And guess what that is generated from!!

If you go back 2 years before the rains “that we were NEVER supposed to get again” filled the hydro coffers down there; Tassie sucked on the mainland coal fired generation like a new born calf! Go back even 2 months and you will see that Victoria pushes heaps down there when Vics prices are low.

Clutching at straws as usual.



It was in the 11/12 year.....
and in 10/11 it was 1320
and in 09/10 it was 670GWh smile

How is "Tassie sucked on the mainland coal fired generation like a new born calf! Go back even 2 months and you will see that Victoria pushes heaps down there when Vics prices are low."

In the past 5 years the most they have imported into Tassie was 2644GWh in the year 08/09 and in the same year they still managed to generate 7419GWh of power. smile
_________________________
Why is it in the era of "Time saving" devices, that people are more "Time poor" than ever?

Humans think they are the fabric of society,when they are merely part of the thread.


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#1195929 - 27/05/2013 19:05 Re: The Alternative Energy Scam? [Re: ROM]
ROM Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 29/01/2007
Posts: 6628
Just a bit of information I have had access to.
To the readers and lurkers of this thread who might be wondering who is right and who to believe when it comes to the various claims on this forum about electrical power generation in all it's forms.

Yasi has admitted and boasts that all he runs are some solar panels and a couple of batteries and a small wind turbine if I remember correctly, as his power supply.

So if you wanted a very highly qualified engineer to pre commission and oversee a couple of multi million dollar power generator projects or a major mega million dollar government project who would you approach to do those engineering jobs?

And who would you then trust to have the correct information and give you a straight answer?



Edited by Seabreeze (28/05/2013 10:25)
Edit Reason: personal references removed

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#1195982 - 28/05/2013 08:30 Re: The Alternative Energy Scam? [Re: ROM]
@_Yasified_shak Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 07/03/2009
Posts: 4152
Loc: El Arish
Don't delay on renewable energy, government told

Investing in new renewable power generation, rather than a "dash for gas", will be the lower-cost option for keeping the lights on while cutting greenhouse gas emissions, the government's climate change watchdog has said.

The sooner the UK makes large investments in low-carbon generation – including offshore and onshore wind, nuclear power and energy from waste – the cheaper it will be, according to David Kennedy, chief executive of the Committee on Climate Change (CCC), the statutory body that advises ministers on meeting emissions targets.

The conclusions are likely to be controversial, as many MPs on the right of the Tory party have been clamouring for an end to onshore windfarms and reductions in renewable subsidies.

They would prefer to see a new "dash for gas" that would require the UK to massively expand shale gas drilling and import tens of billions of pounds worth of fuel each year as North Sea reserves run down. They point to lower gas prices in the US that have resulted from the aggressive pursuit of shale resources.

The CCC's analysis found that investing in renewable energy made sense even if the price of gas was relatively low. Previous analysis by the Department of Energy and Climate Change (DECC) relied on scenarios of large increases in the gas price to make renewables and other forms of low-carbon power, such as nuclear, more economic.

Kennedy told the Guardian: "Not investing in renewables only makes sense if you don't want to meet our emissions targets – if you tear up the Climate Change Act."

That is precisely what some on the rightwing of the Tory party would like to do, although the act passed in 2008 with just a handful of no votes. The opponents included Peter Lilley, recently appointed as a senior adviser to David Cameron, although No 10 said his focus would be on foreign policy and not on energy.

A DECC spokeswoman said: "We agree with the CCC on both the need to invest in a portfolio of low-carbon technologies, and the need to reduce our dependence on imported gas which is the main factor driving up household energy bills.

"We recently trebled support for low-carbon technologies to £7.6bn to 2020, and have introduced landmark legislation through the energy bill to incentivise £110bn of investment in clean energy infrastructure, which has the potential to support 250,000 jobs in the energy sector."

Kennedy said targets on emissions from the electricity sector to 2030 were likely to be needed, in order to spur low-carbon investment by giving companies the clarity and certainty they needed to put money into UK projects.

The government has rejected a target of decarbonising electricity generation by 2030, as had been proposed for the energy bill now on its passage through parliament. Tim Yeo, the Tory former minister, is leading a rebellion on the target, which he wants reinstated, and has gathered at least 45 supporters including the prominent Tories Zac Goldsmith and Sir Peter Bottomley.

Green campaigners welcomed the CCC report. Leila Deen, energy campaigner at Greenpeace, said: "Every MP in British politics should take heed of this report, because in two weeks' time they'll be making the biggest changes to the UK's energy system in a generation when they vote on the energy bill.

"The CCC's advice is clear: a clean energy system is better for business and better for consumers. George Osborne has ripped a 2030 decarbonisation target from the bill, but with hundreds of businesses and investors crying foul, it's up to coalition MPs to vote it back in."

The passage of the energy bill promises to be tempestuous because of the deep divisions within the Tory party on energy and climate change. Yeo said: "This report raises serious concerns about the mixed messages the government has been sending on energy and climate change policy. The energy bill is supposed to deliver billions of pounds of investment in clean energy infrastructure by providing long-term certainty and reducing capital costs, but the Treasury has undermined investor confidence by stripping the legislation of a clear carbon reduction target."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2013/may/23/renewable-energy-committee-climate-change


Edited by Seabreeze (28/05/2013 10:26)
Edit Reason: very small response to post above removed.
_________________________
Why is it in the era of "Time saving" devices, that people are more "Time poor" than ever?

Humans think they are the fabric of society,when they are merely part of the thread.


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#1195987 - 28/05/2013 08:49 Re: The Alternative Energy Scam? [Re: @_Yasified_shak]
@_Yasified_shak Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 07/03/2009
Posts: 4152
Loc: El Arish
Plug into renewable energy, report urges

TASMANIA would become a net exporter of renewable energy by 2020 under a blueprint for climate action due to be released by the Tasmanian Climate Action Council tomorrow.



The blueprint is based around boosting Tasmania's renewable energy production, encouraging energy-saving practices and building on the sustainable agriculture sector.

It suggests a range of measures to ensure Tasmania reaches its target of reducing carbon emissions by 60 per cent of 1990 levels by 2050, including introducing new energy efficiency standards for buildings and establishing fair renewable energy feed-in tariffs to encourage homes and businesses to generate their own electricity.

Homes that feed back into the grid from solar panels currently get 27 cents per kilowatt hour, but that could drop as low as eight cents per hour when Aurora Energy is split and the retail arm privatised in July.

Council chairwoman Lesley Hughes said the council would discuss the impending reduction of the tariffs in a meeting today and make a submission to government.

Climate Change Minister Cassy O'Connor said the council was the government's peak advisory body on climate change, and its blueprint would inform the development of the government's own climate plan, to be released later this year.

Ms O'Connor said Tasmania had already reduced its emissions by 30 per cent on 1990 levels.



``There's a huge economic opportunity here for Tasmania if we continue to build resilience into our economy, if we continue to move toward a low-carbon economy, then we can have a prosperous and sustainable future,'' Ms O'Connor said.

``We can be a beacon to the world of sustainability and innovation.''

Opposition Leader Will Hodgman said he would not comment on the blueprint until he had seen it, but said the Liberal Party's priorities were the re-establishment of frontline police, education and health services and revitalising the state's economy.

http://www.examiner.com.au/story/1528260/plug-into-renewable-energy-report-urges/?cs=12
_________________________
Why is it in the era of "Time saving" devices, that people are more "Time poor" than ever?

Humans think they are the fabric of society,when they are merely part of the thread.


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#1196009 - 28/05/2013 10:20 Re: The Alternative Energy Scam? [Re: ROM]
SBT Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 07/02/2007
Posts: 14230
Loc: Townsville Dry Tropics
Spain introduces 6% energy tax

14. September 2012 | Applications & Installations, Global PV markets, Markets & Trends | By: Oliver Ristau

Photovoltaic producers will now have to pay a 6% tax on any income they earn from generating solar power, including from feed-in tariffs (FITS).

(1) Read more: http://www.pv-magazine.com/news/details/.../#ixzz2UXfGVPtq

All energy producers in Spain will now be taxed.

Solaria Energía y Medio Ambiente


After nearly 2 months of speculation and negotiation, the Spanish Council of Ministers has approved a raft of measures aimed at reducing the multi-billion euro gap in the country’s public electricity bill, or tariff deficit.

As Energy Minister, José Manuel Soria disclosed today, Friday September 14, a new tax will be imposed on the generation of both conventional and renewable electricity produced in Spain. The new 6% levy will apply to the price electricity producers receive for selling their energy, including all public remuneration, like FITS.

Additionally, the Spanish government has introduced new charges for conventional energy sources, including for nuclear waste, the use of water at hydropower plants, and a differentiated "green cent" for the use of coal, gas and fuel-oil for the generation of electricity.

Through these measures, Soría hopes to reduce the tariff deficit for 2013 to zero. According to him, it increased to €24 billion in 2011 and, without action, would rocket to almost €50 billion in 2015.

Barcelona-based lawyer, Piet Holtrop who is helping hundreds of clients fighting against the previously announced retroactive solar FIT changes, called the new measures "discriminating". For lots of producers of solar power who had suffered under the retroactive changes, the new tax would probably be "the finishing stroke," he told pv magazine. However, he said the PV tax which had been previously discussed of 19% would have been much worse.
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2018 Total 774mm






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#1196010 - 28/05/2013 10:23 Re: The Alternative Energy Scam? [Re: ROM]
SBT Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 07/02/2007
Posts: 14230
Loc: Townsville Dry Tropics
Belgium Mulls Solar Panel Tax

by Ulrika Lomas, Tax-News.com, Brussels

17 May 2013

(1) http://www.tax-news.com/news/Belgium_Mulls_Solar_Panel_Tax____60790.html

Belgian companies managing the country’s electricity and natural gas distribution grids (GRD), including Ores and Tecteo, are asking for a tax on solar panels from October 1, to ensure that owners contribute to using the network.

GRD firms intend to submit a request for the introduction of a levy to CREG, the federal regulator of the gas and electricity market, by the end of May.

Defending their request, head of Ores, Fernand Grifnée, underlined the need "to end the discrimination," arguing that owners of solar panels do not currently pay to use the grid. Consequently, the costs are passed on to other consumers, Grifnée explained. Grifnée nevertheless insisted that the additional costs are neither a tax nor a fee, but merely a tariff.

GRD companies advocate the introduction of a contribution linked to the actual output of the photovoltaic installation, and have suggested that an annual sum of EUR50 (USD64) per kWc be imposed on all installations, irrespective of size, to ensure equal tax treatment.

The idea of a tax on photovoltaic panels is not new. Walloon energy regulator CWaPE recently recommended that a levy of EUR55 per kWc be introduced by way of a contribution to network costs. CWaPE did, however, also propose that an exemption be accorded for installations with an output of below three kWc.

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#1196011 - 28/05/2013 10:26 Re: The Alternative Energy Scam? [Re: ROM]
SBT Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 07/02/2007
Posts: 14230
Loc: Townsville Dry Tropics

Levy planned for rooftop solar systems

(1) http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite2_1_18/04/2013_494644

By Chryssa Liaggou

The Environment and Energy Ministry is planning to impose an extraordinary levy on photovoltaic systems on rooftops used for the production of electricity (not water heaters) as a result of pressure from the country’s international creditors to bring the electricity market’s deficit down to zero by 2014.

The levy could range between 10 and 15 percent of turnover, but those with low incomes will be exempt.

Total turnover from rooftop solar systems amounts to some 300 million euros per year and is not liable to any taxation due to the incentives given to producers of power from renewable energy source (RES).

In the first quarter of the year these producers accounted for total installed capacity of 500 megawatts, or as much as two Public Power Corporation units.


3 countries either enacting taxes on solar power or about to. Precedent set. Look out Australia.
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Oct 31mm
2018 Total 774mm






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#1196013 - 28/05/2013 10:31 Re: The Alternative Energy Scam? [Re: @_Yasified_shak]
@_Yasified_shak Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 07/03/2009
Posts: 4152
Loc: El Arish

Solar Power In Australia - The Battle Ahead

by Energy Matters

It's no surprise to the renewables industry, but that solar actually works has been a surprise to Big Energy - and this is increasingly making fossil fuel generators very nervous.

Speaking at the Solar 2013 conference in Melbourne, the Australian Photovoltaic Association's Muriel Watt warned that incumbent energy businesses will step up their fight against solar in the form of regulatory and tariff protection and campaigns to demonise it.

The latter is by no means a new development - the solar industry has been fighting myths and misinformation for years.

According to an article on RenewEconomy, Ms. Watt says incumbent utilities would attempt to push back on solar using a considerable arsenal of possibilities.

- Low buy back rates
- Gross metering
- Higher fixed charges
- Restrictions on new connections
- Discriminatory offerings
- Restrictions on operation
- Attempts to divide customers with "have and have nots"
- Mobilizing anti renewable lobby groups
- Political and regulatory support.

Some of these strategies are already in place and each of these 'weapons' is explained in further detail on RenewEconomy.

"The incumbents have found that renewables actually work. They thought that we would always be in the R&D bucket," said Ms. Watt.

Not only is the solar industry banding together for the uptick in hostilities; individual system owners are as well. A new grass-roots community group called Solar Citizens aims to bring together existing and future solar owners in Australia and to help see solar installed on every suitable rooftop in the nation; which will be to the benefit of all households; solar and non-solar.

One of Mahatma Gandhi's best known quotes is: "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."

The first two scenarios have happened to the solar industry, the third is ongoing and while some battles have been won, the outcome of what is increasingly becoming an all out war remains to be seen.

With millions of Australians now benefiting from home solar and more joining the ranks of the solar revolution each day; any presumption from incumbent utilities of victory could backfire in a big way

http://www.energymatters.com.au/index.php?main_page=news_article&article_id=3761

This one quote sums the situation up oh so well! grin

One of Mahatma Gandhi's best known quotes is: "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."
grin grin grin grin
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Why is it in the era of "Time saving" devices, that people are more "Time poor" than ever?

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#1196014 - 28/05/2013 10:31 Re: The Alternative Energy Scam? [Re: ROM]
ROM Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 29/01/2007
Posts: 6628
OOPS wrong button


Edited by ROM (28/05/2013 10:33)

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#1196016 - 28/05/2013 10:38 Re: The Alternative Energy Scam? [Re: ROM]
ROM Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 29/01/2007
Posts: 6628
ROM; quote from page 59 above @ 12.30

Originally Posted By: ROM
But the pendulum has already begun it's next great swing towards the other side of the equation and there might be quite some pain for solar panel owners and wind turbine farm and solar farm investors in the future as governments seek to recover the monies handed out to those no longer important and quite inefficient energy producers by preceding governments who had the hell deliberately frightened out of them by the spectre of supposedly catastrophic CO2 increases, a claim that has now been effectively rebutted by the latest science.

All easily fixed by a special infrastructure levy on solar panel owning households [ and those so called renewable energy industries ] by the grid operators which then removes the unfair imposts on and the requirement placed on the non solar panel owners to heavily subsidise the grid upgrades and changes and maintenance solely for the benefit of the low power using solar panel owners.


When I posted that Quote above yesterday 28th @ 12.30 I had absolutely no idea that the following would turn up this morning on the GWPF site.

And no idea that SBT would just beat me too it so i will just give the headlines of the original sources and you can get all the [ predicted !! ] gory details from SBT's posts above rather than myself repeating it all.

And it's a quite likely sign of things to come even here in Australia as Governments run out of money and start scrounoing around for any source of publicly acceptable ways of raising further funding.

So via the GWPF from the PV magazine.

Spain introduces 6% energy tax

From Tax News / Global Tax News

Belgium Mulls Solar Panel Tax

From ekathimerini

Levy planned for rooftop solar systems

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#1196019 - 28/05/2013 10:42 Re: The Alternative Energy Scam? [Re: ROM]
@_Yasified_shak Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 07/03/2009
Posts: 4152
Loc: El Arish
Jirau : The world’s largest renewable CDM project obtains registration at the United Nations

The United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC) registered the Jirau Hydropower Plant on May 17, 2013 under the Clean Development Mechanism (CDM). The renewable energy produced by Jirau will allow a reduction of up to six million tons of CO2 emissions annually as it will reduce the need to dispatch (or build new) fossil fueled power plants.

The Jirau hydropower plant is the largest renewable energy plant ever registered and it demonstrates that the Clean Development Mechanism, when applied in tandem with national greenhouse gas (GHG) mitigation and enabling policies, is capable of promoting major infrastructure projects.

Gérard Mestrallet, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of GDF SUEZ declared: “The Jirau CDM project stands as a key element in Brazil’s efforts to promote sustainable economic growth based on renewable power. This recognition by the United Nations illustrates the strong commitment of GDF SUEZ to develop renewable energy around the world and in Brazil.”

The Jirau project is a key element in Brazil’s National Policy on Climate Change, which promotes expansion based on hydroelectricity and other renewable technologies, such as wind and biomass. This policy encourages a balance between low GHG emissions, energy security, environmental protection and social development.

GDF SUEZ has been a pioneer of CDM since its participation as a founding member of the Prototype Carbon Fund in 2001 and is actively using the program to promote clean energy investments. To date, the Group has registered a portfolio of 15 CDM projects in Asia, Africa and Latin America, using wind, water, geothermal and biomass as sustainable sources of renewable energy. The CDM registration is effective as of December 26, 2012, which enables the project to sell its credits to the European emission trading scheme (EU ETS).

About the Jirau Project

The Jirau project, which is under construction on the Madeira River in the state of Rondônia in Brazil, is currently jointly owned by GDF SUEZ (60%)(1), Eletrosul (20%) and Chesf (20%). Designed as a run-of-the-river facility with a small reservoir, the plant will have an installed capacity of 3,750 MW and potential to meet the electricity demand of 10 million Brazilian households. The commissioning of the project is expected to start in mid 2013.

About CDM

The CDM was set up by the Kyoto Protocol as one of the flexibility mechanisms to complement emissions trading between developed countries that accepted targets as listed under Annex 1 of the Protocol(2). Carbon credits from CDM are granted when companies from such developed Annex 1 countries undertake investments enabling the reduction of CO2 emissions in developing countries to support their clean and sustainable development. As the emission reductions obtained can be used to meet part of the obligations, the CDM is a first step towards a global carbon market.

About GDF SUEZ in Latin America

GDF SUEZ Energy Latin America provides innovative energy and gas solutions in Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Costa Rica, Panama and Peru, supporting this emerging continent in its economic growth, respecting the environment and providing essential services to its people. It has 3,300 employees in the region and 12.2 GW capacity in operation and an additional 4.7 GW under construction. Two thirds of the electricity it generates is renewable. It also transports, distributes and sells gas in addition to regasifying LNG and has a share in more than 45 Mm3 per day in natural gas operations through generation companies, marketing and infrastructure operators. For more information, please visit www.gdfsuezla.co
_________________________
Why is it in the era of "Time saving" devices, that people are more "Time poor" than ever?

Humans think they are the fabric of society,when they are merely part of the thread.


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#1196029 - 28/05/2013 11:52 Re: The Alternative Energy Scam? [Re: @_Yasified_shak]
@_Yasified_shak Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 07/03/2009
Posts: 4152
Loc: El Arish
Tariffs and levies on solar smirk now i can't see that as being a good thing.... for the power companies! (short term gain long term pain grin )
All it is going to do is alienate the people who already have solar installed and push them onto the next level, where they will then just seek to store their own power that they have produced, thus reducing power exported to the grid and reducing imported consumption even further.

Germany's Energy Storage Incentives



New renewable energy subsidies in Germany may do for battery storage globally what the nation did for solar power.

In February we reported Germany would apparently soon formally confirm a start date for an initiative to support the purchase of battery based energy storage systems integrated with solar panel arrays. It took a little longer than rumoured, but that moment seems to have arrived.

PV Magazine reports the initiative will launch as expected on May 1. From that date, the purchase of new battery storage for solar power systems will be subsidized up to €660 (around AUD$835 at current exchange rates) per kilowatt of solar panels; up to a maximum of 30kW. The subsidy is equal to 30% of current battery costs.

The program is expected to initially run for two years and is open to individuals, community groups and commercial entities.

It was Germany's pioneering efforts with solar feed in tariffs that boosted demand for solar to a point that many new players entered the market, research and development took off and consequently prices of panels started dropping. As the world followed Germany's lead, solar panels and associated equipment became even cheaper.

However, energy storage systems have remained expensive. With this new program - if a feed-in tariff-type trend follows - prices should drop substantially; and soon.

The news will be particularly encouraging for those with solar power systems who wish to further decrease their reliance on mains grid electricity, or cut ties altogether. With some feed-in tariffs being anything but generous; it makes sense for some households to store their high value solar electricity for use when they want and how they want.

The electricity sector will no doubt be watching Germany's experience with great interest and some trepidation as it may threaten their source of cheap, green electricity that they then resell at premium prices; plus generally take more business away from retailers.

http://www.energymatters.com.au/index.php?main_page=news_article&article_id=3694
_________________________
Why is it in the era of "Time saving" devices, that people are more "Time poor" than ever?

Humans think they are the fabric of society,when they are merely part of the thread.


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#1196034 - 28/05/2013 12:35 Re: The Alternative Energy Scam? [Re: ROM]
ROM Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 29/01/2007
Posts: 6628
And when the German power prices come down again like they have in the USA and all those solar powered households that got off the grid will start to figure out it is costing them much more for their solar powered set up than others are paying for grid power. And when those German solar panels get all covered with snow for 3 or 4 months of the year as in this year and only produce about 3% of their rated output for those households that get off the grid, then the grid operators are going to charge like wounded bulls for all those power lines to be restrung and to reconnect and re-engineer the grid system to again allow those solar panel owners who thought they were clever enough to go it alone, to reconnect to the grid.

If they don't leave the grid but rely on solar panel and batteries then the grid operators, as we see above already, will just whack a bloody great big tax or premium onto those solar panels to cover the cost of the grid connection to those solar panel / battery believers.
And if the solar panel owners don't use the grid power the grid owners won't be worried. The panel premium will be high enough to make damn sure the grid owners still make a good profit from that connection.

The world is changing as it always has and always will. The pendulum is swinging faster and faster towards the other side and the free ride enjoyed by the alternative energy scammers is rapidly coming to an end and instead they will pay and pay for the public largesse heaped on them in the past years.

The one exception to the above will be as in the Greeks case, solar hot water installations will be exempt which is why I told a close relative to spend his money on a decent solar hot water unit instead of solar panels.
With solar hot water, there is always a use plus you will be probably be exempt from any premiums and taxes on solar electricity panels which upset the grid stability and compete against the power generators
Solar hot water does not compete against the generators, does not create any back feeding of power problems for the grid as solar panels do and will always require and use grid power at various times for pumping and when the sun doesn't shine or the usage of hot water is high.

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#1196043 - 28/05/2013 13:25 Re: The Alternative Energy Scam? [Re: ROM]
@_Yasified_shak Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 07/03/2009
Posts: 4152
Loc: El Arish
Originally Posted By: ROM
And when the German power prices come down again like they have in the USA and all those solar powered households that got off the grid will start to figure out it is costing them much more for their solar powered set up than others are paying for grid power.


How is it costing them more? in the interim it would with the initial setup but once the system is setup it is bye bye electricity bills and service charges and hello to free electricity!! grin and they can continue to enjoy free electricity for the next 25+ years batteries would maybe have to be replaced between 1-3 times but in the end going grid free you still come out WAY in front grin

Oh yes Greece, The story in question above which both you and SBT quote mentions an extraordinary levy and every one know the level of debt that Greece is in! they are also the same country that placed a “levy” on bank deposits of their own citizens as a cash grab to prop up the economy.

Originally Posted By: ROM
The world is changing as it always has and always will. The pendulum is swinging faster and faster towards the other side and the free ride enjoyed by the alternative energy scammers is rapidly coming to an end and instead they will pay and pay for the public largesse heaped on them in the past years.


You are correct there, the world is changing but not in the way you may think or like, Coal has been the backbone of electricity generation for a long time now, and we all know what happens when you abuse your back...

Coal fired power operators are now getting antsy because while they were ignoring solar then laughing at them, solar was getting a stronger and stronger foothold in the industry, now they have gotten to the stage where the rug is going to get pulled out from under coal and they have come out swinging because they don't want to loose anymore ground.
_________________________
Why is it in the era of "Time saving" devices, that people are more "Time poor" than ever?

Humans think they are the fabric of society,when they are merely part of the thread.


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