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#1197597 - 05/06/2013 11:05 Re: Renewable Energy News [Re: Tom1234]
davidg Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 01/06/2008
Posts: 2248
Loc: Glenbrook/Penrith
Originally Posted By: Enrique
My xbox died the day i got it lol and went straight back and got another.

I built a PC gaming rig eventually, but even they show the same early adopter price declines. $800 GPUs eventually drop to half of that and they are still perfectly fine for 99% of users who don't need 60fps on triple screens.

The same will happen with solar, we will see a few plants built more so just as demonstrations that it can be done and because the general population wants it done. Then we will see price declines as the technology matures and we should see more serious long term plants built.

Then you have the politics, humans like visual stimulus, so we like to see that something is being done. The visual of a solar farm peaks interest in people, potentially winning votes in some USA states. We have to remember that the Western United States is very different to Australia, they are making a big push into trying to reduce pollution. California in particular prides its self as a trend setter, they have very progressive green regulations.

We have to sometimes remember that the green hatred on weatherzone is not indicative of views everywhere. what people see as waste of money here is seen as making progress elsewhere.


If you filter out the extreme opposing views I think the discussion on WZ is actually quite informative.

I think you miss my point. People proclaim that Australia is not investing in solar or geothermal etc. on a large enough scale. I contend that they are investing proportional to the maturity of the technology. Gaming analogies aside, energy infrastructure does not suddenly become obsolete in the way consumer products do. Plant upgrade cycles are in decades, not years or months. It pays long term to remain conservative and to invest in research rather than "blowing your dough" on large scale renewables when the technology is not mature enough to provide the type of reliability that is required.

Its not a case of simply throwing money at it, as attractive politically that may sound. If you have seen the excellent ABC series Hollowmen, you'll know what I mean.

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#1197598 - 05/06/2013 11:28 Re: Renewable Energy News [Re: CeeBee]
Tom1234 Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 08/04/2011
Posts: 1709
Loc: Port Stephens
I don't think the discussion here is informative at all, we have threads title "alternative energy scam" for one and the opposing dirty coal thread. people also get to attached to policy in countries other than Australia, they fear the spread of renewables.

We have to remember that most of these articles are not even Australian, we have no say in what California or Arizona chooses to do. If they want to be industry leaders then good for them, we will only gain from their knowledge.

They are progressive economies that are much larger than our own and they have been on the leading edge of technology for 50+ years, it's cultural. It's all well and good knocking potential projects here if we find it's not affordable, but the constant grating at other nations bugs me. California was at the leading edge for clean air laws, seat belt laws, unleaded gasoline and now hybrid vehicles and solar.

People here just need to admit that some of these other economies have and will continue to be more progressive than ours. Australia has always been associated with research and not adoption, it's a cultural thing.



Edited by Enrique (05/06/2013 11:31)

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#1197601 - 05/06/2013 11:38 Re: Renewable Energy News [Re: Andy Double U]
@_Yasified_shak Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 07/03/2009
Posts: 4219
Loc: El Arish
Originally Posted By: Andy Double U
Originally Posted By: @_Yasified_shak
Originally Posted By: snafu
What happens if they get a day or more of no sun?


I think they would class that as night time if there were no sun....
The area where it is receives around 300 sunny days per year and when it is cloudy it would reduce the output but it would still produce power.


Still leaves 65 days of limited or potentially no power produced. That means they can expect good electrical capacity 82% of the time. It doesn't take a lot of cloud to seriously impede the generation of solar power, I can't recall my figures but I remember thinking it was surprising just how much the power output from our arrays dropped when some Cu drifted in front of the sun let alone on days when you have 8/8 cloud of thin to moderate thickness.



Coal fired power plants have and availability of between 80-90%
so there is not a great deal of difference.
So i see it as a good thing compared to something that is spewing out tonnes of pollution everyday, and it does not need to be fed tonnes of coal every hour.

Well i have solar power and live in one of the wettest places in Australia, so we get a good deal of "thick cloud" and i can say that i have only used the generator once in the last 12 months to charge batteries.....

Originally Posted By: Bill Illis

No mention of the subsidies in the projects.

What are the government contributions to capital and the on-going operating subsidies.



isn't it amazing how quickly they hop on the subsidies bandwagon grin yet fossil receive a much much higher rate of subsidies (tax payers money) yet they never want to acknowledge that.
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#1197602 - 05/06/2013 11:43 Re: Renewable Energy News [Re: @_Yasified_shak]
@_Yasified_shak Offline
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Registered: 07/03/2009
Posts: 4219
Loc: El Arish
Report exposes Government hypocrisy on fossil fuel subsidies

The New Zealand government is subsidising the oil and gas industry to the tune of $46 million annually, an investment at odds with its claims on the world stage to be spearheading efforts to reform fossil fuel subsidies, says global conservation …WWF media release – for immediate release

New report exposes Government hypocrisy on fossil fuel subsidies

$46 million for oil & gas at odds with global commitments to reform fossil fuel subsidies

The New Zealand government is subsidising the oil and gas industry to the tune of $46 million annually, an investment at odds with its claims on the world stage to be ‘spearheading’ efforts to reform fossil fuel subsidies, says global conservation organisation WWF.

A new report released today from WWF-New Zealand highlights the contradiction in the government’s rhetoric overseas and their domestic policy which has seen these subsidies more than double since coming to power in 2009.

Peter Hardstaff, WWF-New Zealand climate change campaigner, said: “Climate Change Minister Tim Groser is travelling around the world talking up New Zealand’s leading role in reforming fossil fuels subsidies, while back home Energy Minister Simon Bridges is giving hand outs to the oil and gas industry. This smacks of hypocrisy and further undermines New Zealand’s reputation on climate change, which has already taken a hammering from pulling out of binding global commitments under Kyoto II.”

Financial subsidies that encourage the production and consumption of fossil fuels are increasingly being recognised internationally as a major barrier to global efforts to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. According to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs: “Production subsidies…inhibit innovation and the development of cleaner technologies, and they reduce incentives to produce and use fossil fuels more efficiently.”

The National-led government has significantly increased its support for oil and gas through indirect subsidies such as taxbreaks and support for exploration data and research – up from $6 million in 2009 to $46 million today. In total, support for consumption and production of fossil fuels has risen from $40.6 million to almost $85 million.

The money freed up from eliminating support for oil and gas extraction would be better spent on more environmentally and socially beneficial initiatives, such as a multi-year programme to install grid-connected solar panels onto the roofs of Housing New Zealand’s 70,000 homes, the report argues.

Peter Hardstaff said: “We question the use of public money to encourage an already wealthy industry to extract fossil fuels leading to more pollution. The government needs to transition away from polluting oil and gas and start investing in a clean energy future for New Zealand, for the benefit of the planet and the health and wellbeing of New Zealanders.”

Science shows that if the planet is to have a good chance of staying below 2 degrees Celsius – the internationally agreed target for limiting global warming – then three quarters of all fossil fuel reserves must remain in the ground.
http://business.scoop.co.nz/2013/06/05/report-exposes-government-hypocrisy-on-fossil-fuel-subsidies/
_________________________
Why is it in the era of "Time saving" devices, that people are more "Time poor" than ever?

Humans think they are the fabric of society,when they are merely part of the thread.


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#1197603 - 05/06/2013 11:46 Re: Renewable Energy News [Re: @_Yasified_shak]
@_Yasified_shak Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 07/03/2009
Posts: 4219
Loc: El Arish


Sen. Bernie Sanders, I-Vt., and Rep. Keith Ellison, D-Minn. announced they would introduce the End Polluter Welfare Act to Congress. The bill would save over $10 billion a year by cutting fossil fuel subsidies - particularly, it would end tax breaks for fossil fuel companies.

The legislation would also put an end to special financing for fossil fuels, end taxpayer-funded research & development, and set "fair royalties policies." Sanders remarked the Act is "the most comprehensive ever introduced on this subject. It ends all tax breaks, special financing arrangements, and the federal research and development funding."

A recently released fact sheet outlined the money that would be saved by getting rid of fossil fuel subsidies:

$14 billion saved by ending the intangible drilling deduction - which the oil industry currently receives, and which typically represents 60 to 80 percent of the total drilling cost.
$12 billion saved by repealing a 2004 law, which allows fossil fuel corporations to claim they are manufacturers, in order to take part in the tax deductions aimed at helping actual U.S. manufacturers.
$6.8 billion saved by closing an existing loophole that lets oil companies like BP deduct money they spend cleaning up their own oil spills and paying subsequent damages.
$2.4 billion saved by stopping fossil fuel outfits from investing through master limited partnerships, an option that is unavailable to green energy businesses, which illustrates the obvious pro-fossil fuel/anti-clean energy favoritism that exists today. (Indeed, fossil fuels are subsidized nearly six times the rate of renewable energy. From 2002-2008, reports 350, the U.S. government gave the fossil fuel industry $72 billion+ in subsidies, while investments in the green energy industry totaled about $12.2 billion.)
$3.7 billion saved by shutting down the Federal Office of Fossil Energy.
$10.6 billion saved by recouping lost royalties for offshore drilling in public waters.
It is also quite clear that the fossil fuel industry does not need subsidies: In 2011, said this report, the five big oil powerhouses (BP, Chevron, Conoco, Shell, Exxon Mobil) enjoyed $137 billion in profits, and furthermore earned a combined $33.5 billion in the first quarter of this year alone.

Moreover, unlike green energy incentives, which periodically expire and require Congress to approve extensions, the fossil fuel industry has many subsidies permanently cemented within the tax code after decades of lobbying (which, in 2011, the oil/gas/coal industries spent a combined $167 million doing).

The End Polluter Welfare Act is important, said 350, not only because it ends these unfair pro-fossil fuel benefits, but would also reduce the federal deficit, give $807 to every U.S. taxpayer, and could even go to purchase 2.8 million Chevy Volts.

Sanders is calling on citizens to help make sure that the End Polluter Welfare Act sees the light of day, which they can do by signing a petition.

"People are sick and tired," said Sanders, "of seeing the same folks who want to cut nutrition programs for hungry children fight tooth and nail to preserve federal tax breaks that go to Exxon Mobil - one of the most profitable corporations in history."

http://www.peoplesworld.org/proposed-bill-would-end-fossil-fuel-subsidies/
_________________________
Why is it in the era of "Time saving" devices, that people are more "Time poor" than ever?

Humans think they are the fabric of society,when they are merely part of the thread.


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#1197608 - 05/06/2013 12:37 Re: Renewable Energy News [Re: CeeBee]
ROM Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 29/01/2007
Posts: 6628
"Progressive" California with it's massive loads of regulations red tape and totally impractical regulations and highly discriminatory taxes plus carbon taxes designed to inflict heavy "socially progressive" imposts on any industrial production is experiencing a mass exodus of industry of every type and business into other american states that don't bear the progressive label and are very receptive to new industries and the creation of new jobs.
The comparative and current unemploynment data from the USA tells the story very clearly on how Progressive California is travelling in it's Progressive economic situation



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#1197614 - 05/06/2013 12:53 Re: Renewable Energy News [Re: ROM]
@_Yasified_shak Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 07/03/2009
Posts: 4219
Loc: El Arish
Oh how ironic... laugh evillaugh

World’s biggest coal company turns to solar – to save energy costs

The world’s largest coal mining company – Coal India – is looking to innovative solution to reduce its own energy bills: it’s installing solar energy.

The company, which is listed but government controlled, and which accounts for more than 80 per cent of coal production in India, is installing a 2MW plant at its Sampalbur coal plant in Odisha. It plans to install solar at its operations across the country, including at its mining research arm, the Central Mine Planning and Design Institut.

Officials told local media DNA that the installation of solar PV at mines and staff housing areas is aimed at reducing Coal India’s own energy bills.

But the most striking aspect of the decision is the company’s own recognition that fossil fuels are depleting, and that solar is approaching grid parity.

“India has an abundance of sunshine and the trend of depletion of fossil fuels is compelling energy planners to examine the feasibility of using renewable sources of energy like solar, wind, and so on,” Coal India’s bid document said.

Another state-owned coal company, Neyvili Corp, as well as Oil India, are also venturing into the solar market, Neyvili is building a 10MW solar PV plant with an option to upgrade to a 25MW facility.

Across India, around 2.3GW of solar is expected to be installed by 2016, with more expected as distributedsolar provides cheaper options that sourcing electricity from the grid.

http://reneweconomy.com.au/2013/worlds-b...rgy-costs-31634
_________________________
Why is it in the era of "Time saving" devices, that people are more "Time poor" than ever?

Humans think they are the fabric of society,when they are merely part of the thread.


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#1197655 - 05/06/2013 15:31 Re: Renewable Energy News [Re: CeeBee]
Tom1234 Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 08/04/2011
Posts: 1709
Loc: Port Stephens
i knew it wouldn't be long until ROM chimed in with some anti Californian post.

SACRAMENTO (KABC) -- California's unemployment rate has sharply dropped to 9 percent for the first time in nearly 4 1/2 years.

The state Employment Development Department announced the new numbers Friday.

The last time California's unemployment rate was below 10 percent occurred in November 2008, nearly a year after the recession began.



You also have the unemployment among Hispanic and African Americans in California which is

* Hispanic = 10.2%
* African American = 12.2%
* White = 5.0%
http://www.calmis.ca.gov/htmlfile/subject/demoaa.htm


Edited by Enrique (05/06/2013 15:32)

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#1197659 - 05/06/2013 15:50 Re: Renewable Energy News [Re: CeeBee]
ROM Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 29/01/2007
Posts: 6628
Well it seems from those unemployment figures that a considerable racial discrimination is well and truly entrenched in "Progressive California".

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#1197664 - 05/06/2013 16:58 Re: Renewable Energy News [Re: ROM]
pogonantha Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 30/01/2011
Posts: 609
Loc: Maadi, Tully area
Originally Posted By: ROM
Well it seems from those unemployment figures that a considerable racial discrimination is well and truly entrenched in "Progressive California".


or maybe bro there just aint no wurk in da hood..

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#1197665 - 05/06/2013 17:09 Re: Renewable Energy News [Re: CeeBee]
Tom1234 Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 08/04/2011
Posts: 1709
Loc: Port Stephens
Most likely they are not educated, the cycle is hard to break with the gang life that goes on in the LA region. You would have to delve deeper into the census stats and education stats to find the cause of job inequality.

52% of Latino adults have no high school diploma
20% of African Americans have no high school diploma
11% White have no high school diploma
http://www.cpehn.org/demochartdetail.php?btn_viewchart=1&view_20.x=30&view_20.y=9

Sure the discrimination is sad, but it doesn't take away the fact that they have been progressive and still maintain a huge economy.

California GDP = $1.9 trillion (rank 9 in world versus nations)
next closest state Texas $1.2trillion

Australia $924 Billion

Median income of $61,000 versus USA average of $52,000 I'd suggest they aren't doing to bad in California. Apart from housing which is over priced, they have an Australian like property bubble, over $400k median versus USA median of $186k.


http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/06000.html


Originally Posted By: pogonantha


or maybe bro there just aint no wurk in da hood..


Not work that they want to put on their tax return lol


Edited by Enrique (05/06/2013 17:11)

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#1197670 - 05/06/2013 17:54 Re: Renewable Energy News [Re: CeeBee]
ROM Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 29/01/2007
Posts: 6628
When they elect progressives like the aptly named Governor" Moon beam" Brown for a second go around at the state governor ship you know they have real troubles.
California might supposedly be ranked as the ninth largest economy in the world [ I think it was the 6th largest I was told when I was in the USA in 1991 ] but they are effectively bankrupt.

If they were a company they definitely would be bankrupt.

Australia's GDP is around the US$1.5 trillion dollar mark [ IMF ] US$1.37 trillion [ World bank ]

Ref; Wiki/List of countries by GDP (nominal)

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#1197677 - 05/06/2013 19:10 Re: Renewable Energy News [Re: CeeBee]
Max Record Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 18/04/2009
Posts: 1668
Loc: Adelaide
With any employment figures, I'd love to know the percentage changes and values of full time, part time and casual workers...it's all well and good to say the unemployment rate has gone down, but I'll bet that is not because there is more full time work.
_________________________
2019: 185.8mm
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Yearly Average: 460mm

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#1197698 - 05/06/2013 22:07 Re: Renewable Energy News [Re: Max Record]
@_Yasified_shak Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 07/03/2009
Posts: 4219
Loc: El Arish
New record for clean energy in Australia

A record 13.14 per cent of Australia’s electricity was supplied by renewable energy in 2012, according to new figures released today by the Clean Energy Council.

Clean Energy Council chief executive, David Green, said the 2012 Clean Energy Australia Report showed energy efficiency and renewables were having an increasing influence on our power supply.

“The clean energy industry contributed $4.2 billion in investment and approximately 24,300 jobs to the Australian economy in 2012,” Mr Green said.

“The cost of fossil fuels such as gas has been going up, while clean energy has been getting cheaper – fast.

“Earlier this year the millionth solar power system was installed, while last year was a record one for Australia’s wind power businesses, with the country’s 62 wind farms powering the equivalent of more than one million homes for the first time. These milestones clearly show the progress towards cleaner sources of power.”

Clean Energy Council chair and AGL chief executive, Michael Fraser, said there were still challenges ahead, but the clean energy industry was showing significant progress.

“The review of the Renewable Energy Target last year reinforced the bipartisan commitment to the policy by all major parties, and in its current form it is estimated that it will generate another $18.7 billion in investment,” Mr Fraser said.

“We recognise that there are many challenges we will need to meet in the decades to come. But this is a rapidly maturing industry filled with innovative thinkers who are constantly looking for ways to overcome these challenges and do things better.”
http://www.businessspectator.com.au/news/2013/6/5/renewable-energy/new-record-clean-energy-australia
_________________________
Why is it in the era of "Time saving" devices, that people are more "Time poor" than ever?

Humans think they are the fabric of society,when they are merely part of the thread.


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#1197701 - 05/06/2013 22:28 Re: Renewable Energy News [Re: @_Yasified_shak]
@_Yasified_shak Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 07/03/2009
Posts: 4219
Loc: El Arish
New hybrid technology set to change the future of renewables

A new hybrid technology that integrates wind and solar power generation is set to overcome many of the problems associated with traditional renewable power systems and revolutionise the green energy sector.
The project has been developed by SME McCamley Middle East Ltd with research input from our Department of Mechanical Engineering.
McCamley's hybrid turbines encase wind turbine blades in an outer frame, which is topped with solar cells. Unlike traditional turbine, the McCamley structure has proven to be bat and bird friendly, with animals being deterred from the blades by the outer frame.
The turbines are specially designed to be mounted on buildings and in built-up areas, helping to facilitate a growth in Urban Renewable Power. They're lightweight so reduce the impact on buildings, and the multi-leg design distributes the load onto the building evenly.
The compact, noise-free design overcomes concerns that many people have about living near traditional wind turbines farms.
While traditional turbines lose the ability to generate power at very high wind speeds, the McCamley turbine operates safely in storm conditions and doesn't need to be shut down. Conversely, when wind speeds are as low as 1.8m/s it can still self-start and therefore needs no power from the grid.
Abulrub, CEO of McCamley Middle East Ltd and a University of Bath alumnus, said: "The success of McCamley's hybrid turbine in meeting customer needs and addressing existing associated problems with traditional turbines is the result of innovation and research by both our team and that at the University of Bath.
"Our resulting turbine addresses many of the concerns that the energy sector and the general public have with other renewable technologies, and we believe that as a company we're set to revolutionise the sector."
Dr Necip Sahinkaya, academic lead at the University, said: "Small and medium sized enterprises (SMEs) form a significant share of the UK's economic activities and are being increasingly recognised by the Government as an important vehicle for future growth and economic recovery.
"Through the University of Bath working with SMEs like McCamley we're able to provide a unique environment and leadership. We aim to match our young engineers with innovative companies like this one where the resulting product contributes to the future of our country."


Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2013-06-hybrid-technology-future-renewables.html#jCp
_________________________
Why is it in the era of "Time saving" devices, that people are more "Time poor" than ever?

Humans think they are the fabric of society,when they are merely part of the thread.


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#1197725 - 06/06/2013 08:31 Re: Renewable Energy News [Re: CeeBee]
ROM Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 29/01/2007
Posts: 6628
If it wasn't so sad and so destroying of the low income earner's ability to make ends meet after paying those increasing energy costs created by the wind and solar industries, you would have to laugh at the cut and paste, fluff piece posts to defend the incomes of the big wealthy investors in those grossly inefficient wind and solar farms.

Might dare to question the huge public subsidy rip offs by the wealthy subsidy scammers of the wind and solar industries.

The very left greenpeace and all it's other ramshackle nostrums that are regularly trotted out to save the world from something or another every other day.

The global warmers and the renewable energy believers and pushers.


Edited by Seabreeze (06/06/2013 13:33)
Edit Reason: personal remarks

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#1197731 - 06/06/2013 09:12 Re: Renewable Energy News [Re: ROM]
@_Yasified_shak Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 07/03/2009
Posts: 4219
Loc: El Arish
Would it be any different if there were no renewables on the scene? no power would go up, once Utilities are sold off from Government hands the inevitable price rises happen almost instantly (although they always claim that power prices will not rise! smirk ) Power companies are also keen to make good profits and will always bump prices up accordingly, just blaming renewables for every woe in society is just ignorance.

Where do your post's come from ROM? all those "cut and paste" articles that you supply? whistle another poor argument from the sceptic camp.
I post articles as they come online and i post them when i get a chance to,if it overpowers the sceptics then it just goes to show that they do not have to much to add to the debate. smile

Yes it is also sad that poor land owners are getting scammed by
all those wealth mines in the states that are profiting from gas wells on the owners properties while the owner only get excuses why they are not getting any royalties.

i also notice you chose to ignore my previous questions on solar panels....
_________________________
Why is it in the era of "Time saving" devices, that people are more "Time poor" than ever?

Humans think they are the fabric of society,when they are merely part of the thread.


Top
#1197733 - 06/06/2013 09:16 Re: Renewable Energy News [Re: CeeBee]
CeeBee Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 25/02/2012
Posts: 2654
...


Edited by Seabreeze (06/06/2013 13:34)
Edit Reason: baiting
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#1197735 - 06/06/2013 09:31 Re: Renewable Energy News [Re: @_Yasified_shak]
Andy Double U Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 28/10/2006
Posts: 1829
Loc: Mundoolun, SE QLD, 129m ASL
Originally Posted By: @_Yasified_shak
... if it overpowers the sceptics then it just goes to show that they do not have to much to add to the debate. smile


ROFL... It's more likely that the taxes of the sceptics are propping up the believers through social welfare and research grants. In order to pay taxes you need to earn an income, to earn an income you need to work. In fact, I dare say, the sense of self satisfaction to be gained from being a positive contributor to society would easily dwarf one's ability to feel good by belittling the contributions of those poor souls who obviously aren't as enlightened.


Edited by Seabreeze (06/06/2013 13:37)
Edit Reason: personal remark

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#1197741 - 06/06/2013 10:11 Re: Renewable Energy News [Re: CeeBee]
retired weather man Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 01/07/2007
Posts: 5161
Loc: Wynnum
The debate continues to rage in Qld about the recent latest power price rise with more to come. Already on the news this morning was mentioned a " renewable tax " portion of the bills will increase about $260 p.a. in about 2 years on top of profit driven rises..

As well as the privatization profit factor which has been correctly highlighted above, the Qld Premier is making noises about those generating their own power and thinking of how to even the field a bit.

OK they generate their own during the day, but use the grid at night or on unsuitable days but pay nothing for this use - that we all know.

But they pay nothing for the infrastructure under the current system. If the poles outside their houses fall over, who fixes it - FOR FREE. In each power bill an amount is calculated for infrastructure maintenance/renewal etc. THIS AMOUNT SHOULD BE CHARGED TO ALL including renewable users. A simple and by my way of thinking, quite equitable solution.

I have said the following before and say it again here - I still cannot fathom why a rebate from the Carbon Tax is paid to some big polluters. Is that not negating what the Tax was designed for.

And if the various Govt's are genuine in saving the planet, why is the Carbon Tax not used to provide EVERY household in the country with solar panels, instead of these useless rebates.???


Edited by retired weather man (06/06/2013 10:12)
Edit Reason: grammer

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