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#1389585 - 06/10/2016 12:24 Re: Australian Politics [Re: Mick10]
ColdFront Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 29/06/2008
Posts: 17826
Loc: Wide Bay..Near the beach
Originally Posted By: Mick10
thats an NBN article.



I have seen the video on sky news from sunday anyway. again the comments were about what he was initially told by the energy regulator.


Here

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-ne...gy-not-to-blame

I was getting ahead of myself on the absolute failure of Turnbull's dud NBN where people are now complaining about their speeds .Maybe that's due to the degraded copper network it rides on?


Everything other than the failure of transmission towers is redundant and speculative nonsense as the power stayed on until those towers went over so quite clearly the state had ample power before they toppled.

Behind all this is the undeniable fact that the Coalition are employed by the fossil fuel industry to keep what is a dying industry afloat as long as possible and so must do their best to tarnish what is rapidly replacing it.

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"Don't steal. The government hates competition."

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#1389586 - 06/10/2016 12:29 Re: Australian Politics [Re: ozthunder]
Eevo Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 02/11/2013
Posts: 1597
Loc: Bridgewater
Originally Posted By: ozthunder
Originally Posted By: Eevo
what i'm impressed with is that it took less than 3 hours to get the system to a point where it can start to take on load.
and that the owners of Pelican Point power station, while not currently bid available in the market, informed the system operator that its power plant could be made available within four hours


What is this pelican Point station, was it in storage?

[/quote]

not in storage, just not being used at the time.


to oversimplify there are 3 possible stages a power station can be in.

producing power (and being paid to do so)
active standby - not producing power but ready to start producing power at notice (and being paid for standing by)
offline - could be for maintenance or just lack of demand


pelican point was offline at the time and during the outage they put their hand up to say they would help get the state back up n running. they had no contractual obligation to do so.



Edited by Eevo (06/10/2016 12:32)

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#1389588 - 06/10/2016 12:34 Re: Australian Politics [Re: Brett Guy]
Eevo Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 02/11/2013
Posts: 1597
Loc: Bridgewater
Originally Posted By: Brett Guy
Renewables in and of themselves won't be the issue but moreso the rush to introduce renewables without ensuring the system can then cope with extreme events will be noted.


bingo!

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#1389593 - 06/10/2016 12:55 Re: Australian Politics [Re: ColdFront]
Eevo Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 02/11/2013
Posts: 1597
Loc: Bridgewater
Originally Posted By: ColdFront

Everything other than the failure of transmission towers is redundant and speculative nonsense as the power stayed on until those towers went over so quite clearly the state had ample power before they toppled.


no no no. you need to take a holistic view of the grid. the grid is statewide (in fact its SA-VIC-TAS-NSW-QLD wide)
noone is saying the state didnt have ample power before the tower fell over.
the power was lost north of the towers when the towers blew over.
the remainder of SA didnt have enough generation once the tower went down
the grid attempted to fix the deficit by pulling more power though the interconnector. the interconnector overloaded and tripped
the remainder of SA now had a bigger deficit.
if the remaining section of SA was powered by enough conventional power stations, the grid would be been stable enough to shed some load (causing an outage for some but not all) and leave the majority of the state with the lights on.


i'm quite happy to have renewals in our state but with that we need to accept the grid becomes less stable,the grid is more susceptible to an out of character events and less likely to recover.
the storms were a predictable event and SA should have been running on 80% conventional power stations, just in case.





Edited by Eevo (06/10/2016 12:55)

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#1389594 - 06/10/2016 13:01 Re: Australian Politics [Re: ColdFront]
Eevo Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 02/11/2013
Posts: 1597
Loc: Bridgewater
in regards to coal being a dying industry.
Australia is currently consuming 25MW of power. 16MW are being produced by coal.

3MW from solar
2.5MW from wind
2MW from hydro
1.5MW from gas


it's very prominent.

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#1389600 - 06/10/2016 13:59 Re: Australian Politics [Re: Eevo]
ozthunder Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 23/09/2001
Posts: 3012
Loc: Mt Warrigal, NSW, Australia
Originally Posted By: Eevo
to oversimplify there are 3 possible stages a power station can be in.

producing power (and being paid to do so)
active standby - not producing power but ready to start producing power at notice (and being paid for standing by)
offline - could be for maintenance or just lack of demand


pelican point was offline at the time and during the outage they put their hand up to say they would help get the state back up n running. they had no contractual obligation to do so.



I should show my hand so to speak. I did work in a power station some 28 years ago now.

We spent a fair bit of time on standby, and certainly with the differential heating of casing vs shaft you could not get one of our turbines producing power in 3 hours from cold.

we also had a period where our little 30mw turbines were daytime load only, could be run up in 20-30 mins due to everything still being heated from overnight.

I miss that job
_________________________
Michael Thompson
http://ozthunder.com

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#1389601 - 06/10/2016 14:09 Re: Australian Politics [Re: Eevo]
ColdFront Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 29/06/2008
Posts: 17826
Loc: Wide Bay..Near the beach
Originally Posted By: Eevo
in regards to coal being a dying industry.
Australia is currently consuming 25MW of power. 16MW are being produced by coal.

3MW from solar
2.5MW from wind
2MW from hydro
1.5MW from gas

it's very prominent.


Without the alternatives coal would be 25MW currently. It's market share is falling. This is simply indisputable.
_________________________
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#1389607 - 06/10/2016 14:36 Re: Australian Politics [Re: ColdFront]
Eevo Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 02/11/2013
Posts: 1597
Loc: Bridgewater
Originally Posted By: ColdFront
Originally Posted By: Eevo
in regards to coal being a dying industry.
Australia is currently consuming 25MW of power. 16MW are being produced by coal.

3MW from solar
2.5MW from wind
2MW from hydro
1.5MW from gas

it's very prominent.


Without the alternatives coal would be 25MW currently. It's market share is falling. This is simply indisputable.

who is disputing it?

i said: it's very prominent.

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#1389613 - 06/10/2016 16:11 Re: Australian Politics [Re: Eevo]
ColdFront Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 29/06/2008
Posts: 17826
Loc: Wide Bay..Near the beach
Originally Posted By: Eevo

i'm quite happy to have renewals in our state but with that we need to accept the grid becomes less stable,the grid is more susceptible to an out of character events and less likely to recover.
the storms were a predictable event and SA should have been running on 80% conventional power stations, just in case.





OK, so you're blaming renewables for the outage. Noted.
_________________________
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#1389614 - 06/10/2016 16:31 Re: Australian Politics [Re: ColdFront]
Eevo Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 02/11/2013
Posts: 1597
Loc: Bridgewater
Originally Posted By: ColdFront
Originally Posted By: Eevo

i'm quite happy to have renewals in our state but with that we need to accept the grid becomes less stable,the grid is more susceptible to an out of character events and less likely to recover.
the storms were a predictable event and SA should have been running on 80% conventional power stations, just in case.





OK, so you're blaming renewables for the outage. Noted.



no you have misunderstood. i'm blaming you.

i'm blaming the lack of procedure which would allow operations to provide energy security to SA during 1 in 50 year storms that were predicted 7 days in advance.



as a side but related note. i dont think it would be possible to run SA on 100% wind power and no interconnect without the system tripping.

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#1389617 - 06/10/2016 17:03 Re: Australian Politics [Re: Eevo]
ColdFront Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 29/06/2008
Posts: 17826
Loc: Wide Bay..Near the beach
Originally Posted By: Eevo



no you have misunderstood. i'm blaming you.



Is that you Mr Abbott?
_________________________
"Don't steal. The government hates competition."

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#1389624 - 06/10/2016 17:36 Re: Australian Politics [Re: ColdFront]
Eevo Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 02/11/2013
Posts: 1597
Loc: Bridgewater
Originally Posted By: ColdFront
Originally Posted By: Eevo



no you have misunderstood. i'm blaming you.



Is that you Mr Abbott?


wrong again. this is becoming a pattern with you. smile

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#1389656 - 07/10/2016 08:53 Re: Australian Politics [Re: ColdFront]
samboz Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 16/11/2014
Posts: 1794
Loc: Between Maffra & the Mountains...
He's speechless Eevo, never thought I'd see the day...lol

(You are correct btw Eevo)
_________________________
Rain 2016-753.5mm.J-173mmF-5mmM-66mmA-32.5mmM-24mmJ-88mmJ-143mmA-17.5mmS-89.5mmO-53.5mmNov-61.5mmDec-26mmTOTAL 2016 - 779.5MM Rain 2017.Jan-9.5mmFeb-23mmMarch-49mmApril-40mmMay-12mmJune-12mmJuly-15mm Aug-36.5mm Sept-26mm Oct-10mm to 0900 12th.

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#1389665 - 07/10/2016 10:08 Re: Australian Politics [Re: ColdFront]
ColdFront Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 29/06/2008
Posts: 17826
Loc: Wide Bay..Near the beach
Sometimes it is pointless responding. Appraently Eevo knows more than all the experts in the field .Josh Fraudberg reckons renewables weren't to blame but Eevo thinks they are, so he's either a Liberal party member or has shares in a coal field somewhere, or both. That you agree is quite amusing. Your mate has used a rather weak sledge as a diversion from his inability to stand by has claim that coal is not in decline.

Maybe it's Beetroot (Joyce). He was the other muppet firing off accusations against renewables on the night it happened without a shred of evidence.

The good news is that despite your passion for coal, it is going out of favour at an increasing rate and the handbrake that the Liberals are applying will be released eventually.
_________________________
"Don't steal. The government hates competition."

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#1389699 - 07/10/2016 17:45 Re: Australian Politics [Re: ColdFront]
samboz Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 16/11/2014
Posts: 1794
Loc: Between Maffra & the Mountains...

No, I don't think Eevo said or meant, your interpretation of, most of that CF.
_________________________
Rain 2016-753.5mm.J-173mmF-5mmM-66mmA-32.5mmM-24mmJ-88mmJ-143mmA-17.5mmS-89.5mmO-53.5mmNov-61.5mmDec-26mmTOTAL 2016 - 779.5MM Rain 2017.Jan-9.5mmFeb-23mmMarch-49mmApril-40mmMay-12mmJune-12mmJuly-15mm Aug-36.5mm Sept-26mm Oct-10mm to 0900 12th.

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#1389704 - 07/10/2016 18:30 Re: Australian Politics [Re: ColdFront]
Red Watch Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 14/03/2010
Posts: 335
Loc: Cranbrook, Townsville
You have got to remember state wide power failure is by population which is mostly Adelaide itself but it was caused by a sudden loss of wind power which caused an overload to the interconnector.

Quote:
That weather sparked a series of events that spiralled into a state-wide blackout. That it was the sudden loss of wind power that tripped the interconnector with Victoria and that loss of generation is yet to be explained.

It is also undeniable that South Australia now has an extremely fragile power system. It cannot operate with any confidence if the interconnector with Victoria is down and if the state blacks out it can't be restarted with wind power.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-06/uhlmann-on-power-blackout-in-south-australia/7906844

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#1389718 - 07/10/2016 20:39 Re: Australian Politics [Re: Red Watch]
Seira Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 27/08/2003
Posts: 7082
Loc: Adelaide Hills.
Originally Posted By: Red Watch
It is also undeniable that South Australia now has an extremely fragile power system.

If that is true, we need to do something about before severe weather does it again smile , and quit....mucking around!
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Start ignoring conversations that threaten your joy. Say nothing. Don't invite any part of them into your space.

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#1389719 - 07/10/2016 21:28 Re: Australian Politics [Re: Seira]
Red Watch Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 14/03/2010
Posts: 335
Loc: Cranbrook, Townsville
Originally Posted By: -Cosmic- (naz)
Originally Posted By: Red Watch
It is also undeniable that South Australia now has an extremely fragile power system.

If that is true, we need to do something about before severe weather does it again smile , and quit....mucking around!

The blackout may not have happened if they fired up the gas power stations in anticipation of storms taking out transmission lines and the loss of the wind power. That said it is ok to supplement your grid with wind power as long as you have sufficient base load power to make up for the loss of non base load renewable power. And yes there are base load renewable power stations, These include bio-electricity generated from burning the residues of crops and plantation forests, hot-rock geothermal power and also Concentrating Solar Power (CSP) with the ability to generate power during the night due to the incorporation of molten salt battery technology.

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#1389724 - 07/10/2016 23:32 Re: Australian Politics [Re: ColdFront]
Mick10 Offline
Weatherzone Moderator

Registered: 02/11/2001
Posts: 24800
Loc: Kirwan, Townsville - NQld.
Originally Posted By: ColdFront
Sometimes it is pointless responding. Appraently Eevo knows more than all the experts in the field .Josh Fraudberg reckons renewables weren't to blame but Eevo thinks they are, so he's either a Liberal party member or has shares in a coal field somewhere, or both. That you agree is quite amusing. Your mate has used a rather weak sledge as a diversion from his inability to stand by has claim that coal is not in decline.

Maybe it's Beetroot (Joyce). He was the other muppet firing off accusations against renewables on the night it happened without a shred of evidence.

The good news is that despite your passion for coal, it is going out of favour at an increasing rate and the handbrake that the Liberals are applying will be released eventually.


Seriously CF, your lack of respect for other peoples thoughts and opinions is nothing short of insolence. your reply was mean spirted and unnecessary.

several people in here have explained their views and have shared the information provided by experts who are in the field. yet continue to berate and belittle people.

members in this thread have a right to express their views and debate without this form accusation put against them. if this was someone saying this to you, you would have been irate yet you seem to think its ok to do the same to others.

you and i have had some decent debates, and while we often do not agree we have always been cordial. however i have now had enough and because of your actions over the past two days I will no longer participate in this thread. i will of course continue to monitor from a moderators point of view.

those who do continue to try express their views in this thread, i wish you luck. i do remind you to keep it clean, keep within the forum rules and of course (unlike some) respect others.

_________________________
Kirwan, Townsville Nth Qld -
July 2017 total - 2.8mm (14mm)
August 2017 total - 4.0mm (18mm)
2017 Yearly total to date - 705.0mm (1122mm)

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#1389732 - 08/10/2016 06:04 Re: Australian Politics [Re: ColdFront]
ColdFront Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 29/06/2008
Posts: 17826
Loc: Wide Bay..Near the beach
Whatever Mick. He is still trying to lay blame at the feet of renewables and yet the energy minister says the cause is the collapse of the transmission towers. Your response is no surprise given you ,he and Samboz lean the same way.

He quite clearly rebuked my comments that coal in decline.
_________________________
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