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#1410160 - 01/03/2017 13:06 Re: Australian Politics [Re: Brett Guy]
ozthunder Offline
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Registered: 23/09/2001
Posts: 3021
Loc: Mt Warrigal, NSW, Australia
Originally Posted By: Brett Guy
I don't quite agree with the first part of this statement. If an emoloyee is only providing good service because they are getting paid higher rates then they are a poor employee. On the other hand if they provide good service even without the penalty rates an employer would do well to up there pay in return. But not because they have to. Because they choose to. One of the biggest problems nowadays is employees seem to think jobs are only for their benifit and not for the benefit of the employee.


That would work with what could be termed a "career". I don't think anybody sees working in a coffee shop, waiting on tables, or the check out at KMart as a career.
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#1410165 - 01/03/2017 13:13 Re: Australian Politics [Re: ozthunder]
Brett Guy Offline
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Registered: 05/10/2010
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Loc: Bently Park, Cairns
Originally Posted By: ozthunder
Originally Posted By: Brett Guy
I don't quite agree with the first part of this statement. If an emoloyee is only providing good service because they are getting paid higher rates then they are a poor employee. On the other hand if they provide good service even without the penalty rates an employer would do well to up there pay in return. But not because they have to. Because they choose to. One of the biggest problems nowadays is employees seem to think jobs are only for their benifit and not for the benefit of the employee.


That would work with what could be termed a "career". I don't think anybody sees working in a coffee shop, waiting on tables, or the check out at KMart as a career.


No. That is what I simply refer to as 'work ethic'. If you do a job regardless of what it s you should do it to the best of your ability. Anything less =poor employee and not worth better pay

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#1410172 - 01/03/2017 13:40 Re: Australian Politics [Re: ColdFront]
bundybear Offline
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Registered: 28/12/2010
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Loc: Between Bundy and Gladstone
I wonder how many people here doing the 'grunt' work like serving in the cafe, takeaway, fuel station, local general store and so one are paid above the award rate because they are good workers. Their bosses appreciate them so much.

As a country we seem to already have a problem with staff being underpaid, treated poorly.

I asked one person the other day how they felt about their pay being cut. I was shocked when they said they don't get any extra from their employer no matter the day or hours they work. They were told by their boss that they didn't have to pay extra.

I am pretty sure this would not be an isolated case. Obviously bosses appreciate good staff so much they will be paying above award rate when the pay cuts kick in. (insert sarcasm face here)

I still do not see why we keep being told that we have a 7 day work force. The list of things I can not do on a Sunday is far far longer than the list of things I can do.

I also wonder how many more coffee shops opening on the weekend will work. Are people not going out for coffee because there is only 5 open on the main street and not 10? If the other 5 open now because of lower wages will there be a doubling of customers to pay for them? Or will the income now earnt between the 5 be halved as half the customers now frequent the newly opened ones? Will all 10 of them not be open in 12 months because they couldn't afford to stay open?

I find it interesting that in a time of stagnant wage growth, inflation running rampant that the govt supplies low figures for their solution is to drop wages for those who earn the least. ( Who here is living as comfortably now as they did 3 years ago? Who hasn't cut back on power usage, petrol usage, buying the cheaper brand in the supermarket, dropped an insurance to try to make ends meet?)

I do however agree with the govt that those who are underemployed, unemployed would love to get more hours of work. I an not so sure though that they wanted to work more hours and get paid for the same hours they did previously.



Edited by bundybear (01/03/2017 13:49)

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#1410181 - 01/03/2017 14:46 Re: Australian Politics [Re: ColdFront]
Brett Guy Offline
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Registered: 05/10/2010
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Loc: Bently Park, Cairns
I know a few who get higher pay in their jobs. Bloody good workers though

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#1410186 - 01/03/2017 15:47 Re: Australian Politics [Re: ColdFront]
ozthunder Offline
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Registered: 23/09/2001
Posts: 3021
Loc: Mt Warrigal, NSW, Australia
I think the whole work ethic stuff needs some context. I am sure there are true slackers, just like there are true dole bulgers.

However these are just a small group.

Work ethic is often driven by bosses and employers. Heard the term, " The prawn rots from the head first"

There are so many stories of exploitation - 7 eleven, Dominoes Pizza, etc. etc. Do you really think these employers give a toss about employees? So the employee may start their new job bright and bushy tailed, but soon follow the employer model.

Australia is known for the amount of unpaid hours we already put in at work.

Too many start to compare other people to themselves. Like me you probably work hard so you look at people on unemployment benefit as lazy,, or the person working at KMart as under achieving. The coalition is a classic example with the "can't afford a home, get a better paying job " quote.

Malcolm will say he made his millions through hard work, while ignoring the privilege he had. That tap on the shoulder at near the end of his private school/ college about career options, etc.
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#1410190 - 01/03/2017 16:10 Re: Australian Politics [Re: ColdFront]
Brett Guy Offline
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Registered: 05/10/2010
Posts: 4859
Loc: Bently Park, Cairns
Of course not all employers give a rats about their employees. But small businesses do. They have to. And most big businesses do as well. You are dead right with the 'prawn rots from the head first' bit though. But as I see it the bad work ethic nowadays is not caused by individual employers. It is a rot in society as a whole. I have worked enough different jobs under different employers to have worked out that a good work ethic is noticed and appreciated and a poor one is also noticed. And from what I have seen the poor one is far more prevalent. I have ALWAYS seen good workers rewarded in one way or another. Those who go above and beyond. Those who do the bare minimum are not rewarded yet they seem to think they should be. Maybe it is just pure coincidence that my experience has shown this but I don't tink it is. I would say it is my outlook that has shown this.


Edited by Brett Guy (01/03/2017 16:13)

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#1410222 - 01/03/2017 18:53 Re: Australian Politics [Re: ColdFront]
Markus Offline
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Registered: 02/12/2010
Posts: 2125
Loc: Clare, SA
In my experience having worked a variety of dead end jobs over the years, is that you get favoured for more hours (unless you are contracted fulltime of course) for working harder, but also gain a lot of expectation that you continue this work ethic, regardless of how much one is carrying their coworkers. Ie a bad worker does their usual terrible job and noone bats an eye, hard worker has one off day and it gets noticed.

Other than that you gain essentially nothing, at least in large companies, I got paid a very generous wage when I was 17 of 18 an hour in a small business, but I did work VERY hard to get that. Someone I work with atm is working about 22 hours unpaid overtime a week because he's on salary (and this is expected, despite the fact it is his managers screwing him with a tiny budget and he's expected to pick up the slack) but gets paid a rubbish extra 100 a week or so.

Therefore I have come to this conclusion, the best bet is to be slightly better than the most useless worker, and you'll have the easiest time poke the ol' 20/80 principle
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#1410225 - 01/03/2017 19:25 Re: Australian Politics [Re: Markus]
Brett Guy Offline
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Registered: 05/10/2010
Posts: 4859
Loc: Bently Park, Cairns
Originally Posted By: Markus
In my experience having worked a variety of dead end jobs over the years, is that you get favoured for more hours (unless you are contracted fulltime of course) for working harder, but also gain a lot of expectation that you continue this work ethic, regardless of how much one is carrying their coworkers. Ie a bad worker does their usual terrible job and noone bats an eye, hard worker has one off day and it gets noticed.

Other than that you gain essentially nothing, at least in large companies, I got paid a very generous wage when I was 17 of 18 an hour in a small business, but I did work VERY hard to get that. Someone I work with atm is working about 22 hours unpaid overtime a week because he's on salary (and this is expected, despite the fact it is his managers screwing him with a tiny budget and he's expected to pick up the slack) but gets paid a rubbish extra 100 a week or so.

Therefore I have come to this conclusion, the best bet is to be slightly better than the most useless worker, and you'll have the easiest time poke the ol' 20/80 principle


Haha. You could be right. I often felt I had dug my own grave in a couple of jobs for that very reason. But in the end I decided that I had to stop caring about what others were doing and keep doing what I felt was right. Which was working hard. I had one job not so long ago where I averaged double the yearly wage of lesser workers because the only way I could be rewarded was with more work. I couldn't be rewarded with a higher wage because of union rules.

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#1410229 - 01/03/2017 19:46 Re: Australian Politics [Re: ozthunder]
ColdFront Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 29/06/2008
Posts: 17913
Loc: Wide Bay..Near the beach
Originally Posted By: ozthunder
I think the whole work ethic stuff needs some context. I am sure there are true slackers, just like there are true dole bulgers.

However these are just a small group.

Work ethic is often driven by bosses and employers. Heard the term, " The prawn rots from the head first"

There are so many stories of exploitation - 7 eleven, Dominoes Pizza, etc. etc. Do you really think these employers give a toss about employees? So the employee may start their new job bright and bushy tailed, but soon follow the employer model.

Australia is known for the amount of unpaid hours we already put in at work.

Too many start to compare other people to themselves. Like me you probably work hard so you look at people on unemployment benefit as lazy,, or the person working at KMart as under achieving. The coalition is a classic example with the "can't afford a home, get a better paying job " quote.

Malcolm will say he made his millions through hard work, while ignoring the privilege he had. That tap on the shoulder at near the end of his private school/ college about career options, etc.


You've covered off many very valid points.This wage cut should highlight to all but the incredibly thick why this rabble of a government had been attacking the unions at every opportunity. Businesses are recording record profits and wage growth has stalled. Go figure.
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#1410234 - 01/03/2017 20:08 Re: Australian Politics [Re: ColdFront]
bundybear Offline
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Registered: 28/12/2010
Posts: 2129
Loc: Between Bundy and Gladstone
My 21yo daughter currently thinks life is great. She only works 45 hours a week. Starts at 6.30 am and finishes at 4. Rare weekend work. It does happen though if there is a public holiday she has to work the weekend to make up for that public holiday.

This is the least hours she has worked since leaving school. First job was basically dawn till dusk and beyond 6 and 7 days a week.

Next job was such stupid hours. Often over 70 hours and 7 days a week. No such thing as a public holiday. Even on a sick day she was expected to start the day shift crew before going back home. I was so glad when she left that job as she was constantly sick from lack of sleep.

If employers really valued their workers and paid accordingly she should be rich. She is not a slacker at work. Her original boss really hated it when she lost her as an employee and tried to get her back. Second boss wasn't real happy either. Hasn't been unemployed since leaving school.

My son has a boss who knows very well that without his one and only staff member he would be up poop creek. He would not have all the leisure time he has. He would not have the income he has. It would take him a long time to be able to replace the knowledge into another worker that my 18yo son has gained working for him for the last 6 years. Whilst he has had other workers in that time none of them has matched my son in ability or work ethic. He is only paid award wages although there is a bit of give and take on hours.

I am sure I am not the only one who can give examples of good workers that are taken advantage of.

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#1410237 - 01/03/2017 20:24 Re: Australian Politics [Re: ColdFront]
Brett Guy Offline
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Registered: 05/10/2010
Posts: 4859
Loc: Bently Park, Cairns
That's life BB. It ain't meant to be a walk in the park. I have been in the same position for years. It worked for me. It will work for your daughter if she keeps it up.

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#1410238 - 01/03/2017 20:39 Re: Australian Politics [Re: bundybear]
ColdFront Offline
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Registered: 29/06/2008
Posts: 17913
Loc: Wide Bay..Near the beach
Originally Posted By: bundybear


I am sure I am not the only one who can give examples of good workers that are taken advantage of.


I was when I managed a couple of Tradelink stores years ago. When I left they asked me back after a year or so and offered to increase my salary considerably and gave me my choice of stores to run. I told them to shove it.

Some people accept it as "how it is" but in truth if everyone stood up for their rights there would be a lot of businesses up poop creek as your son's boss has recognised. It's amazing how many businesses don't want to pay penalty rates but the owners still want their weekend off while they pay some lacky shyte money to hold the fort.

Now I work Mon-Fri 8.30 to 5.00 pm for a fair salary. They do not try and exploit me and they don't whinge when I go out the door at 5.00pm. I get annual leave and public holidays fought for by those pesky unions that allegedly hold everyone back .

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#1410240 - 01/03/2017 21:01 Re: Australian Politics [Re: ColdFront]
bundybear Offline
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Registered: 28/12/2010
Posts: 2129
Loc: Between Bundy and Gladstone
Originally Posted By: ColdFront




Now I work Mon-Fri 8.30 to 5.00 pm for a fair salary. They do not try and exploit me and they don't whinge when I go out the door at 5.00pm. I get annual leave and public holidays fought for by those pesky unions that allegedly hold everyone back .



I bet you can work out which child of mine works in an industry with a union and which one doesn't.

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#1410241 - 01/03/2017 21:05 Re: Australian Politics [Re: ColdFront]
ColdFront Offline
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Registered: 29/06/2008
Posts: 17913
Loc: Wide Bay..Near the beach
Funny that.
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#1410242 - 01/03/2017 21:20 Re: Australian Politics [Re: ColdFront]
Brett Guy Offline
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Registered: 05/10/2010
Posts: 4859
Loc: Bently Park, Cairns
There are two types of people in the world. Those who think whinging and screaming will get them everything they want. And those who believe hard work will achieve that result. The former will never be happy no matter how much they have. The latter will find happiness in who they are(and will also generally be more successful to boot). Everyone has a choice in who they can become. At least. That is what life has taught me. The ones who are always complaining and blaming everybody else just become bitter. Those who look to themselves develop self respect.

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#1410245 - 01/03/2017 21:35 Re: Australian Politics [Re: Brett Guy]
bundybear Offline
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Registered: 28/12/2010
Posts: 2129
Loc: Between Bundy and Gladstone
Originally Posted By: Brett Guy
There are two types of people in the world. Those who think whinging and screaming will get them everything they want. And those who believe hard work will achieve that result. The former will never be happy no matter how much they have. The latter will find happiness in who they are(and will also generally be more successful to boot). Everyone has a choice in who they can become. At least. That is what life has taught me. The ones who are always complaining and blaming everybody else just become bitter. Those who look to themselves develop self respect.


I am neither bitter nor a whiner. I recognise social injustice and do what I can to correct it.

That might involve me signing petitions, donating cash to causes I believe in, meeting the pollies who can cause change, writing, phoning.

I was taught that there is no point just complaining. If you do nothing you are part of the problem. I choose to have open eyes, see things from all perspectives even if sometimes I don't like the other side, and act on what I can when I can, how I can.

If my stating life as it is is seen as whinging then some people must live in lala land to not acknowledge the world isn't all fairy dust and sparkles.

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#1410247 - 01/03/2017 21:47 Re: Australian Politics [Re: ColdFront]
Brett Guy Offline
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Registered: 05/10/2010
Posts: 4859
Loc: Bently Park, Cairns
I was merely stating a fact That how we view the world affects our success or otherwise within the world. Yes things can be tough. But if we as an individual look to ourselves then in most cases we will do well. Social injustice is corrected on a personal level. If we start looking for others to blame then we will go backwards. I wasn't accusing you of being either one. I was merely suggesting you (and more importantly others) have a choice. Which choice people make has no affect on me personally so tbh I couldn't give a rats ass which choice people make. But it will affect those who make it.

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#1410249 - 01/03/2017 21:53 Re: Australian Politics [Re: bundybear]
ColdFront Offline
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Registered: 29/06/2008
Posts: 17913
Loc: Wide Bay..Near the beach
Originally Posted By: bundybear


I was taught that there is no point just complaining. If you do nothing you are part of the problem.


Here ,here. I was raised to help those less fortunate along the journey and am happy to whinge on their behalf. It is stupendously ignorant to believe that everyone is born with the ability to become who they want. I reckon anyone that said that to a mate of mine who's sister is down syndrome would wear a fist before they had chance to blink. Not to mention the countless other illnesses that prevent people ever excelling at life. His self respect comes from aiding his sister and not himself.

But then type 2 diabetes is only afflicting people who eat the wrong food according to the uneducated.

Originally Posted By: bundybear

If my stating life as it is is seen as whinging then some people must live in lala land to not acknowledge the world isn't all fairy dust and sparkles.


What ? You mean it's not a fairy tale for everyone? Since when? wink

Hammer, nail. laugh Maybe now you can see why I don't bother with it BB.

It's easy to spot the right in the closet. "Me ,me ,me".

Though in fairness a couple who have had the courage to stand by their convictions have also shown some degree of compassion at times rather than pretend to sit on the fence whilst constantly attacking unions and the Labor party.
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#1410275 - 02/03/2017 07:47 Re: Australian Politics [Re: Brett Guy]
Wild Wassa Offline
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Registered: 17/03/2012
Posts: 390
Loc: NW ACT
Originally Posted By: Brett Guy
There are two types of people in the world. Those who think whinging and screaming will get them everything they want. And those who believe hard work will achieve that result.


Yes, there are two types of people ... those who have empathy for others and those who don't.

Warren.
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#1410280 - 02/03/2017 08:08 Re: Australian Politics [Re: ColdFront]
Brett Guy Offline
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Registered: 05/10/2010
Posts: 4859
Loc: Bently Park, Cairns
I have plenty of empathy Warren.It goes toward people who have no ability to meaningfully affect their own lives. I just have a different idea of how people can improve their personal position. I have to wonder about society when the idea of work ethic and doing the hard yards is a dirty concept and those who suggest it is the way to go get shouted down. Because that is all I was suggesting and it seems some people have a problem with that. But hey. It takes all types.

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