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#1441543 - 18/11/2017 00:25 Re: Atmospheric Rivers [Re: Kino]
Greenyellow dawn Offline
Cloud Gazer

Registered: 08/02/2017
Posts: 13
Loc: Sutherland NSW
Originally Posted By: Kino
Wettest on earth? Cherapunji in India gets 10000mm a year as can Bellenden Kerr in QLD.


10,000 mm? Wow, simply amazing... to have that amount of rain per year, absolutely amazing that not everything in such a place would have washed away from such a huge amount of water. ;P

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#1441549 - 18/11/2017 06:25 Re: Atmospheric Rivers [Re: Flowin]
Kino Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 10/08/2017
Posts: 2636
Loc: Wollongong, NSW, Aus
Originally Posted By: Wikipedia
Rainfall
The rain gauge at its summit records an annual average rainfall of 8,312 mm (327.2 in), making it the wettest meteorological station in Australia. It also holds the record for the highest rainfall in a calendar year of 12,461 mm (490.6 in) in 2000 and the highest rainfall in Australia for a calendar month of 5,387 mm (212.1 in) in January 1979.[4]

In 2006, the mountain received more rainfall 9,800 mm (390 in) than any other part of Australia.[5] This was primarily due to two severe tropical cyclones passing close to the mountain. In 2010, Queensland's wettest year on record, the top station on the mountain recorded 12,438.4 mm (489.70 in), just under the 2000 record.


Quote:
The city's yearly rainfall average stands at 11,777 millimetres (463.7 in). This figure places it behind only nearby Mawsynram, Meghalaya, whose average is 11,873 millimetres (467.4 in). Cherrapunji receives both the southwest and northeast monsoonal winds, giving it a single monsoon season.

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#1441550 - 18/11/2017 07:13 Re: Atmospheric Rivers [Re: Flowin]
Wave Rider Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 27/01/2014
Posts: 6977
I reckon there would definitely be places in the world that exceed 10,000mm and they just aren't recorded. Places that get constant westerly trades come to mind such as near in the west of NZ as mentioned. Milford Sound gets over 6000mm per year and it's at sea level so I reckon some of the mountains above that area could get double that rainfall.

Another place that comes to mind is the west coast of Chile below say 45S. The west coast of Chile also happens to be the driest place in the world..
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#1441650 - 19/11/2017 00:35 Re: Atmospheric Rivers [Re: Flowin]
Seira Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 27/08/2003
Posts: 7584
Loc: Adelaide Hills
Originally Posted By: Flowin
Originally Posted By: Kino
Originally Posted By: Flowin
Originally Posted By: Seira
Atmospheric Rivers would imply the convergence of airstreams.


Agree with that


They refer to the mass transport of moisture in the atmosphere leading to major rainfall events.


Agree with that too

There are a number of ways it can be expressed. In any case, a wind and temperature gradient is likely needed, otherwise there would be no movement at all.

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#1441719 - 19/11/2017 21:59 Re: Atmospheric Rivers [Re: Flowin]
Flowin Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 15/10/2017
Posts: 526
Loc: Pinjarra Hills, Qld
I think atmospheric rivers are a bit more specific than difference between no movement or some movement whether that be wind and temp gradient or other movement driver. My reading is that AR is a concentrated air transport of water vapour....vis vis 'flow' for long distance. And seems to be for tropics source to destination at mid latitudes or further from equator?
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#1441721 - 19/11/2017 22:13 Re: Atmospheric Rivers [Re: Flowin]
Blair Trewin Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 13/07/2001
Posts: 3825
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
There are four parts of the world where average annual rainfalls above 10000mm have been sustained over reasonable periods of time - the region around Cherrapunji in northeast India, the windward side of a mountain in Hawaii, the west side of the Southern Alps in New Zealand (there's a gauge at about 1000m out the back of Hokitika which averages in the 11000s), and the mountains along the Pacific coast of Colombia. Which one actually comes out on top depends on which averaging period you use.

New Zealand have done some field studies with short-term gauges which suggest that rainfall in the mountains around Milford Sound reaches over 13000mm in places.

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#1441722 - 19/11/2017 22:20 Re: Atmospheric Rivers [Re: Flowin]
Homer Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 16/06/2007
Posts: 5973
Loc: Dural
Fascinating stuff Blair, and incredible averages.

I was thinking....... aren't there places in Japan that can get over 10 metres of snow during winter? Would this not equate to 10 000 mm's of rain re the 1mm rain = 1 cm snow calc? Maybe these are rarer occurrences and the averages are therefore lower.
This is not a question to you Blair, but one to anyone in general.


Edited by Homer (19/11/2017 22:25)

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#1441724 - 19/11/2017 22:33 Re: Atmospheric Rivers [Re: Flowin]
Flowin Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 15/10/2017
Posts: 526
Loc: Pinjarra Hills, Qld
For atmospheric rivers it seems that the ultimate water that is at the receiving end is high, whether that be rain or snow.
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#1441727 - 19/11/2017 22:47 Re: Atmospheric Rivers [Re: Homer]
scott12 Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 10/11/2015
Posts: 1038
Loc: maadi Tully area
Originally Posted By: Homer
Fascinating stuff Blair, and incredible averages.

I was thinking....... aren't there places in Japan that can get over 10 metres of snow during winter? Would this not equate to 10 000 mm's of rain re the 1mm rain = 1 cm snow calc? Maybe these are rarer occurrences and the averages are therefore lower.
This is not a question to you Blair, but one to anyone in general.


Homer ..If you were to melt a metre thick layer of snow,you could end up with as little as 10cm of water if it were fresh powder though more water ,of course, if it were older more compacted snow..a snow drift will be mostly made up of air..

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#1441729 - 19/11/2017 22:49 Re: Atmospheric Rivers [Re: Flowin]
Flowin Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 15/10/2017
Posts: 526
Loc: Pinjarra Hills, Qld
No doubt fluid dynamics at play. Air and water movement are both fluids dynamics topics. But when it involves both air and water, or 'coupling' it is significantly more complex


Edited by Flowin (19/11/2017 22:49)
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#1441734 - 19/11/2017 23:19 Re: Atmospheric Rivers [Re: Wave Rider]
Flowin Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 15/10/2017
Posts: 526
Loc: Pinjarra Hills, Qld
Originally Posted By: Wave Rider
I reckon there would definitely be places in the world that exceed 10,000mm and they just aren't recorded. Places that get constant westerly trades come to mind such as near in the west of NZ as mentioned. Milford Sound gets over 6000mm per year and it's at sea level so I reckon some of the mountains above that area could get double that rainfall.

Another place that comes to mind is the west coast of Chile below say 45S. The west coast of Chile also happens to be the driest place in the world..


Aligns to my thinking that AR are what can deliver water to well south of Tropic of Capricorn or north of Tropic of Cancer.
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Models are for estimating and gauges are for knowledge.

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#1441794 - 20/11/2017 21:12 Re: Atmospheric Rivers [Re: Flowin]
Flowin Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 15/10/2017
Posts: 526
Loc: Pinjarra Hills, Qld
Originally Posted By: Flowin
The MIMIC TPW version 2 which is an experimental global product of total precipitable water is useful to see ESTIMATES of the concentration of atmospheric water movements. This link presents a global scale image, and the site also allows a view of Australia region. I emphasise ESTIMATES water movement because it is a hybrid of Satellite post processed data and model data.
http://tropic.ssec.wisc.edu/real-time/mt...4hrs&anim=html5

As a 'gauge' of current situation, the moisture north to south in latest water vapour products suggests a tropics to sub tropics attraction
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#1441796 - 20/11/2017 21:19 Re: Atmospheric Rivers [Re: Flowin]
Blair Trewin Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 13/07/2001
Posts: 3825
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
One 'advantage' that NZ has relative to Chile (or Tasmania) is that it's upstream of an area of relatively warm ocean (the Tasman) so the westerly flow can draw on more moisture.

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#1441798 - 20/11/2017 21:20 Re: Atmospheric Rivers [Re: Flowin]
Seira Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 27/08/2003
Posts: 7584
Loc: Adelaide Hills
Originally Posted By: Flowin
No doubt fluid dynamics at play. Air and water movement are both fluids dynamics topics. But when it involves both air and water, or 'coupling' it is significantly more complex

It might be more complex (re: coupling), however it is still there to be understood. And just because something is known does not necessarily mean it is understood well.

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#1441799 - 20/11/2017 21:24 Re: Atmospheric Rivers [Re: Flowin]
Flowin Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 15/10/2017
Posts: 526
Loc: Pinjarra Hills, Qld
Agree with coupling complexity.
And that South Island NZ seems to be well placed to get what is shed from Australia, like remnants of TC Debbie earlier this year
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Models are for estimating and gauges are for knowledge.

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#1441804 - 20/11/2017 22:06 Re: Atmospheric Rivers [Re: Seira]
Flowin Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 15/10/2017
Posts: 526
Loc: Pinjarra Hills, Qld
Originally Posted By: Seira
Originally Posted By: Flowin
No doubt fluid dynamics at play. Air and water movement are both fluids dynamics topics. But when it involves both air and water, or 'coupling' it is significantly more complex

It might be more complex (re: coupling), however it is still there to be understood. And just because something is known does not necessarily mean it is understood well.

I also agree that what known vs what is understood are two different levels of wisdom about influences on what the sky delivers.
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Models are for estimating and gauges are for knowledge.

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#1441900 - 21/11/2017 17:05 Re: Atmospheric Rivers [Re: Flowin]
Seira Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 27/08/2003
Posts: 7584
Loc: Adelaide Hills
Originally Posted By: Flowin
Originally Posted By: Seira
Originally Posted By: Flowin
No doubt fluid dynamics at play. Air and water movement are both fluids dynamics topics. But when it involves both air and water, or 'coupling' it is significantly more complex

It might be more complex (re: coupling), however it is still there to be understood. And just because something is known does not necessarily mean it is understood well.

I also agree that what known vs what is understood are two different levels of wisdom about influences on what the sky delivers.

I think an important question to ask (for those interested in whatever this phenomenon entails) is:

What is it about "Atmospheric Rivers" that makes them unique and different from other known and/or understood features...? What makes them stand out in their own way?


Edited by Seira (21/11/2017 17:06)

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#1441919 - 21/11/2017 20:18 Re: Atmospheric Rivers [Re: Flowin]
Flowin Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 15/10/2017
Posts: 526
Loc: Pinjarra Hills, Qld
Depends on their significance for Australia which is where I started with this.
Elsewhere where AR is recognised as significant flow of water onto land AR events have directed focus to way we measure, and forecast. This is an interesting read.

http://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/pdf/10.1175/BAMS-D-15-00245.1?download=true

My perspective is for the hydrology. I learned that water in the sky evaporates from land or water. I know the land to ocean movement of water, and am keen to better know the ocean to land movement


Edited by Flowin (21/11/2017 20:19)

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#1441941 - 22/11/2017 00:39 Re: Atmospheric Rivers [Re: Flowin]
Seira Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 27/08/2003
Posts: 7584
Loc: Adelaide Hills
I can understand why ARs might not be so well-recognised in Australia - less high terrain in comparison to some other countries.

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#1442260 - 24/11/2017 19:49 Re: Atmospheric Rivers [Re: Flowin]
Flowin Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 15/10/2017
Posts: 526
Loc: Pinjarra Hills, Qld
Yes lack of high terrain could be a likely reason for not much recognition in Oz.
Possibly also erratic frequency and location or more widely dispersed landfall rain masking their influence?
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