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#1471800 - 02/10/2018 01:51 Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate.
marakai Offline
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Edited by marakai (02/10/2018 01:56)

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#1471815 - 02/10/2018 09:32 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
adon Offline
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Well of course it is! But not just TSI, the relationship between solar activity and Galactic cosmic rays and the effects of all combined are the main drivers. I do get a laugh out of the consensus mob ruling out solar activity due to the changes is TSI being relatively small. Yet a minuscule change in atmospheric content can cause destruction of a global scale.

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#1471838 - 02/10/2018 14:40 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
adon Offline
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#1471884 - 02/10/2018 20:57 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
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Check out from the 3 minute mark to see what is not included as energy input from the sun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oepy1Ig7TdM

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#1473406 - 13/10/2018 18:15 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: adon]
Delta-T Offline
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"Just found this"

https://mobile.wnd.com/2017/07/study-blows-greenhouse-theory-out-of-the-water/


From that link: "the assumption that greenhouse gases warm the atmosphere by trapping heat – is wrong."


Sorry, reading past that is just heading down a science-free, rabbit burrow.

And there are some serious flaws in this piece too.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oepy1Ig7TdM


Edited by Delta-T (13/10/2018 18:15)

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#1473408 - 13/10/2018 18:22 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
ozone doug Offline
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Loc: Roma SW QLD Eye to the West...
suspicious observers that's a rabbit hole lol.
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#1473433 - 13/10/2018 21:14 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: ozone doug]
Delta-T Offline
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Anything but CO2.

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#1473535 - 14/10/2018 16:23 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Nerd65 Offline
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Here's something more or less in the other direction: Hurricanes affecting the ionosphere.
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2018/10/12/study-hurricanes-affect-vlf-radio-signals-in-the-ionosphere/
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#1473639 - 14/10/2018 23:30 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
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How about the ionosphere or further affecting the Hurricanes instead?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wU1qg8HceGI

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#1473640 - 14/10/2018 23:32 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Delta-T]
marakai Offline
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Originally Posted By: Delta-T
"Just found this"

https://mobile.wnd.com/2017/07/study-blows-greenhouse-theory-out-of-the-water/


From that link: "the assumption that greenhouse gases warm the atmosphere by trapping heat – is wrong."


Sorry, reading past that is just heading down a science-free, rabbit burrow.

And there are some serious flaws in this piece too.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oepy1Ig7TdM


Care to name some of the flaws in the second one Delta ?

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#1473649 - 15/10/2018 00:42 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
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Auroras, Lightning, Sprites, a shifting Magnetic field all indicate a vastly misunderstood related part of our climate. Nearly all of which is ignored in the current politicized era of "weather".

How much energy does it take to light up vast portions of the polar sky's each night ? And what happens to that portion of the energy we only see in the visible field of light ?


Some more info.

Quote:

1 The Observations

The influence of solar wind structures and related geomagnetic perturbations on the Earth's atmosphere is a subject of great interest in the context of space weather‐space climate. It pertains to different, nonlinearly related, physical processes such as solar wind driven electrodynamic changes, energetic particle precipitation, and atmospheric chemical changes (Gray et al., 2010; Lam & Tinsley, 2016; Mironova et al., 2015; Rycroft et al., 2012; Seppälä et al., 2014). The polar cap is an important laboratory for this research, since particle precipitation and solar wind‐magnetosphere coupling occur mostly at polar latitudes where the geomagnetic field is interconnected with the magnetic field carried out by the solar wind.

In this commentary, we would like to draw attention to some studies that have quantified signatures of solar wind properties at different altitudes in the atmosphere. Starting with the top of the atmosphere (~100–400 km), it has been found that the periodic structure of the solar wind and associated geomagnetic perturbations, related to the Sun's synodic rotation period and subharmonics (i.e., ~27, 13.5, 9, and 7 days), are clearly observed in ionosphere and upper atmosphere parameters. For example, Lei, Thayer, Forbes, Sutton, et al. (2008) and Thayer et al. (2008) detected ~9 and 7‐day oscillations, respectively, during 2005 and 2006, in the thermosphere neutral density from CHAMP satellite in a near polar orbit at ~400 km; these signals, basically due to the redistribution of the mass density by temperature changes, were associated with similar variations of the solar wind velocity and geomagnetic index Kp. Moreover, Lei, Thayer, Forbes, Wu, et al. (2008) found the same periodic oscillations in the 2005–2006 data of global mean total electron content and Tulasi Ram et al. (2010) observed the 9 and 13‐day periodicities in the electron density at 300 km during 2008. In the lower thermosphere (105–120 km), Jiang et al. (2014) found 9 and 13.5‐day oscillations of the temperature in response to recurrent geomagnetic activity, as observed in the Kp index, during the years 2002–2007; most importantly, they also found that the amplitude of the oscillations was larger at higher latitudes. The response to disturbed geomagnetic conditions in the high‐latitude thermosphere is currently believed to be driven by Joule heating and particle heating (Jiang et al., 2014; Lei, Thayer, Forbes, Sutton, et al., 2008; Lei, Thayer, Forbes, Wu, et al., 2008).
Snip

https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2018JA025411


Edited by marakai (15/10/2018 00:43)

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#1474508 - 22/10/2018 23:10 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
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Quote:
Imagine the world waking up one morning to discover that all compasses pointed south instead of north.

It’s not as bizarre as it sounds. Earth’s magnetic field has flipped – though not overnight – many times throughout the planet’s history. Its dipole magnetic field, like that of a bar magnet, remains about the same intensity for thousands to millions of years, but for incompletely known reasons it occasionally weakens and, presumably over a few thousand years, reverses direction.


Now, a new study by a team of scientists from Italy, France, Columbia University and the University of California, Berkeley, demonstrates that the last magnetic reversal 786,000 years ago actually happened very quickly, in less than 100 years – roughly a human lifetime.


http://news.berkeley.edu/2014/10/14/earths-magnetic-field-could-flip-within-a-human-lifetime/


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#1474605 - 24/10/2018 22:50 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
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Some interesting info on various solar effects such as UV flux correlation
with ice breakup in the Antarctic and space weather affecting Ozone.



Solar Changes and the Climate
By Joseph D’Aleo

http://www.icecap.us/images/uploads/Solar_Changes_and_the_Climate.pdf

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#1474992 - 01/11/2018 01:36 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
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Quote:
New Possible Mechanisms of Thunderstorm Clouds Physics

Introduction

It is known that a strong earthquake preparation process can be accompanied by various geophysical anomalies, which expose themselves several months, weeks or days prior to earthquakes. Such as: Changing of intensity of electro-telluric current in focal area; Perturbations of geomagnetic field in forms of irregular pulsations or regular short-period pulsations; Perturbations of atmospheric electric field;
Irregular changing of characteristic parameters of the lower ionosphere (plasma frequency, electron concentration, height of D layer, etc.);
Irregular perturbations reaching the upper ionosphere, namely F2-layer, for 2-3 days before the earthquake; Increased intensity of electromagnetic emissions in upper ionosphere in several hours or tenths of minutes before earthquake; Lighting before earthquake; Infrared radiation; Total Electron Content (TEC) anomalies; Changing of weather parameters.
Physical mechanisms of the mentioned phenomena by us are explained on the base of the classical electrodynamics[16].
As it was expected, in the origination of the above mentioned anomalies the defining role electromagnetic radiation plays.


https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1810/1810.12774.pdf

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#1475657 - 09/11/2018 19:35 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Seina Offline
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#1475810 - 14/11/2018 17:50 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
retired weather man Offline
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As the Solar Cycle is now at its lowest point, Eastern Australia weather has more or less followed the dry pattern over the past few years, with or without official El Nino's, in a similar fashion to past decades.

Normally as the Cycle turns upwards again which should start to happen later next year, chances of wetter weather over this part of the country should improve over the next few years peaking around 2022-3, again in a similar fashion to most previous cycles.
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#1475836 - 15/11/2018 00:54 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: retired weather man]
marakai Offline
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Originally Posted By: retired weather man
As the Solar Cycle is now at its lowest point, Eastern Australia weather has more or less followed the dry pattern over the past few years, with or without official El Nino's, in a similar fashion to past decades.

Normally as the Cycle turns upwards again which should start to happen later next year, chances of wetter weather over this part of the country should improve over the next few years peaking around 2022-3, again in a similar fashion to most previous cycles.


Hi RWM, wondering what your thoughts might be about the effects of the continued weakening of the Earths Magnetic field that may or may not have on the planet during this current Solar minimum?

There is a noted effect upon global weather with Solar Minimums in the past, but never in recorded history do we have a coincidence of both the Sun and the Earth both with weakening magnetic fields along with a Solar Minimum and possible pole shifts on both at the same time as well and also along with the Milky Way galaxy shifting through the Universe as well, and all at the same time.
If you haven't seen it please do have a look https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIayxqk0Ees

As you already know, the Sun pumps in a lot more than just TSI and what is accounted for under the current status quo. No account is taken of all the other energy apparent but neglected under the current regime into the total un-closed system.

Check out the Lightning https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iXmyV6IYQs

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#1475900 - 16/11/2018 00:18 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
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Earthquakes?


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#1475963 - 17/11/2018 00:25 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
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RESEARCH ARTICLE
New perspectives in the study of the Earth’s magnetic field and climate connection: The use of transfer entropy.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/file?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0207270&type=printable

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#1476059 - 18/11/2018 12:07 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
GringosRain Offline
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A mathematical method for predicting solar cycle activity has been discovered.
This lecture is really worth watching. The scientist/presenters accent is a little difficult at times, but that should not stop anyone watching the full hour lecture.

In short, the method has been able to accurately predict the historical solar cycles without observational inputs. They have also used the method to predict upcoming cycles and find that we are very close to the next grand solar minima. Starts in 2020 and runs through until about 2055. From what I can see compared to other minima it will be short and intense. From the end of this solar minima we will return to a period of warming as part of another 350-400 year cycle. She also discusses, super grand minma on longer scales.

The peak of this event will be 2028-2032.

This is very interesting and must see viewing for those genuinely interested in solar weather and its affects on our climate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2215&v=M_yqIj38UmY

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#1476280 - 20/11/2018 23:07 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: GringosRain]
marakai Offline
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Originally Posted By: GringosRain
A mathematical method for predicting solar cycle activity has been discovered.
This lecture is really worth watching. The scientist/presenters accent is a little difficult at times, but that should not stop anyone watching the full hour lecture.

In short, the method has been able to accurately predict the historical solar cycles without observational inputs. They have also used the method to predict upcoming cycles and find that we are very close to the next grand solar minima. Starts in 2020 and runs through until about 2055. From what I can see compared to other minima it will be short and intense. From the end of this solar minima we will return to a period of warming as part of another 350-400 year cycle. She also discusses, super grand minma on longer scales.

The peak of this event will be 2028-2032.

This is very interesting and must see viewing for those genuinely interested in solar weather and its affects on our climate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2215&v=M_yqIj38UmY


Lisa Upton quotes some of Zharkova's work in her Solar prediction videos as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBUXln7qdoo


Some insight into how the Electric Universe/Plasma cosmology works based on Jupter's Aurora and Birkeland currents.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pitwnMK-RxU

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#1476379 - 21/11/2018 19:09 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
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A short version and interpretation of Gringo's Zharkova Video above:
https://youtu.be/SHGbri7gWWw

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#1476422 - 21/11/2018 23:32 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Seina Offline
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Does anyone know what EOFs are? I understand they are Empirical Orthogonal Functions unless otherwise indicated.

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#1476425 - 21/11/2018 23:57 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
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Analysis of data using time and spatial signals to break the data down to its basics along those two vectors.

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#1476564 - 22/11/2018 18:14 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Seina Offline
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Thank you for clarifying the perspective smile .

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#1477398 - 27/11/2018 23:45 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
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#1478022 - 01/12/2018 16:31 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Seina Offline
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Originally Posted By: marakai

With the water molecule having an electric dipole moment, it would be understandable for a medium such as ocean water.

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#1478063 - 02/12/2018 00:04 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
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It also works with water vapour as well. The Earths magnetic poles exchange energy back and forth with the Suns.


Edited by marakai (02/12/2018 00:06)

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#1478141 - 02/12/2018 15:29 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Seina Offline
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Water vapour is a phase of the water molecule [H2O]. The experiment linked was for the liquid phase smile .


Edited by Seira (02/12/2018 15:30)

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#1478150 - 02/12/2018 16:35 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
amphetamarine Offline
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We are travelling through time and space. On our very own spaceship...Earth. Ready made for yas. Look after it.

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#1478773 - 08/12/2018 02:40 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
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Solar forcing of ENSO ?

Quote:
Key Points:
• A solar cycle’s fiducial clock does not run from the canonical min or max, instead resetting when old cycle flux is gone.

• Many cycles indicate that ENSO is related to the phase of this clock, through driven changes in the cosmic ray flux.

• Cycle 24 is projected to end in 2020. We anticipate a strong El Ni ̃no in 2019, and a strong La Ni ̃na in 2020. If so, cosmic rays would appear to have greater influ-ence on ENSO than solar irradiance

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1812.02692.pdf

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#1479033 - 09/12/2018 22:36 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
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A challenge to just about all we think we know.
THE SUN IS NOT GASEOUS.


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#1479415 - 11/12/2018 21:05 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Seina Offline
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I hope we learn more about the sun...and that...that learning is not conditional.

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#1483264 - 30/12/2018 22:55 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
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Rapid intensification of tropical cyclones in the context of the solar wind-magnetosphere-ionosphere-atmosphere coupling

"Abstract

Rapid intensification of tropical storms is examined in the context of solar wind coupling to the magnetosphere-ionosphere-atmosphere system. Tropical cyclone “best tracks” in the southern and northern hemispheres are used in the superposed epoch analysis of time series of solar wind parameters. The results indicate that rapid intensification of tropical storms tends to follow arrivals of high-speed solar wind from coronal holes or coronal mass ejections. The ensuing auroral and polar cap activity including ionospheric currents and ionospheric convection generates atmospheric gravity waves that propagate from the high-latitude lower thermosphere both upward and downward."

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1364682618305765

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#1483294 - 31/12/2018 08:50 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
retired weather man Offline
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As 2018 closes with below average rain locally, I repeat my call that with the solar cycle at its bottom now, this rain pattern is consistent with such an occurrence.

The solar cycle should start to pick up again later in 2019 and with it increased rainfall, such rain peaking around 2022-24 The oceanic patterns will as usual follow.
_________________________
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#1483483 - 01/01/2019 02:07 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: retired weather man]
marakai Offline
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Originally Posted By: retired weather man
As 2018 closes with below average rain locally, I repeat my call that with the solar cycle at its bottom now, this rain pattern is consistent with such an occurrence.

The solar cycle should start to pick up again later in 2019 and with it increased rainfall, such rain peaking around 2022-24 The oceanic patterns will as usual follow.


What if the Solar cycle go's quiet for an extended period though as some expect ?
Be interesting to see if this current low off of Cape York spark's up in response to the expected Solar stream of energy from the recent Coronal hole stream expected over the next few days.
Time will tell I guess...

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#1483621 - 01/01/2019 21:15 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
DDstorm Offline
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Hey guys, only just found this thread had started from reading another , top stuff and great reading. Been an S.O. watcher for some time, very interesting stuff space weather.
Though I may not have much input, I really wish the Mods could some how add a thumbs up button to acknowledge readers support for the content you guys research and provide. Well done.
DD
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#1485354 - 14/01/2019 05:26 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: DDstorm]
marakai Offline
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Originally Posted By: DDstorm
Hey guys, only just found this thread had started from reading another , top stuff and great reading. Been an S.O. watcher for some time, very interesting stuff space weather.
Though I may not have much input, I really wish the Mods could some how add a thumbs up button to acknowledge readers support for the content you guys research and provide. Well done.
DD


Thank's DD... I'm also a long time S.O watcher as well..signed up in 2012 as a paid member after lurking for a while.
Nasa and China over the last 5 years alone have taken much of this stuff on board to the point of launching satellites to study/research it all... SWARM Mission being but one example....https://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Observing_the_Earth/Swarm

Nearly everyone I know is unaware of all of this stuff let alone a Carrington event type scenario... Sheesh even Carrington comes up as a typo here... go figure ?

I don't think people are aware of what a combined weakening of Earth's Magnetic field combined with shifting at the same time that the Sun is undergoing the same changes means for us all... Nor the possible consequences.

The only constant seem's to be a total disregard for it all.

Current Science press releases seem intent on measuring the equivalence of Gnat foreskins of temperature anomaly's to do with weather compared to arbitrary 30 year periods...
All the while ignoring the very real and obvious effects of Space weather on Earthquakes and Cyclone/Hurricane's already acknowledged by their own launch of satellites to study such phenomena.

Recent discovery's of Flux transfer events and the realization that the earth and the sun are connected inextricably via magnetic (electric) energy fields which flux and wane between the two and possibly between all planets within our solar system are yet another aspect of the Earths Climate not only poorly understood..... But totally misunderstood....

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#1489580 - 08/02/2019 13:20 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
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#1489588 - 08/02/2019 14:06 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Petros Offline
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Interesting concept, presumably DC currents linking celestial bodies via plasma "wires", the currents then creating magnetic fields which can influence planets with their own magnetic fields.

To me these plasma current paths must also have tangible "tension", or else could not push/pull against cosmic objects under the rule of every force must have an equal and opposite force.

However, if true, twists in these plasma conductors, would presumably influence the earths magnetic pole orientation. The movement of which, although not widely reported is as I understand it, causing concern due to no one being able to explain the present excursion of the magnetic pole drift presently experienced. Nor predict where it will be in coming years. Thank God for GPS.

If I'm correct, a standard magnetic compass is needing correction far more frequently than typical of past centuries when it slowly "rocked" around a far restricted physical region at the poles. I understand its presently tracked off left field and well outside the previous recorded latitude extent.

Interesting concept Marakai.

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#1490776 - 18/02/2019 00:44 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
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Earths Geocorona reaches far out into space even encompassing the orbit of the moon, IE Ions and molecules from earth stretch way out into the exoosphere.

https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1029/2018JA026136

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#1490786 - 18/02/2019 08:10 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
cold@28 Offline
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When I first heard the electric theory it made way more sense than what I was taught at school.

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#1497179 - 06/04/2019 00:45 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
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So much that is still unknown coming from the Sun.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/04/190404114437.htm
Quote:
When Simone Di Matteo first saw the patterns in his data, it seemed too good to be true. "It's too perfect!" Di Matteo, a space physics Ph.D. student at the University of L'Aquila in Italy, recalled thinking. "It can't be real." And it wasn't, he'd soon find out.

Di Matteo was looking for long trains of massive blobs -- like a lava lamp's otherworldly bubbles, but anywhere from 50 to 500 times the size of Earth -- in the solar wind. The solar wind, whose origins aren't yet fully understood, is the stream of charged particles that blows constantly from the Sun. Earth's magnetic field, called the magnetosphere, shields our planet from the brunt of its radiation. But when giant blobs of solar wind collide with the magnetosphere, they can trigger disturbances there that interfere with satellites and everyday communications signals.

In his search, Di Matteo was re-examining archival data from the two German-NASA Helios spacecraft, which launched in 1974 and 1976 to study the Sun. But this was 45-year-old data he'd never worked with before. The flawless, wave-like patterns he initially found hinted that something was leading him astray.



Let most people know that the Sun bombards the Earth every second of every day with Winds full of Plasma on average of 400Km per second and they would not have a clue about it.

Ask them what a Coronal whole is, and the answer would be likewise.

Science is just starting to understand what effects outside of Sun Spots effect/affect Earths weather.

There is already solid evidence that the Sun has a direct Affect upon Earthquakes on the surface of our planet. NASA has recently launched Satellites to investigate the sun's effects on Earth with the Parker Solar probe launched last August, putting us closer to the Sun than ever before.

Quote:
Dec. 16, 2008: NASA's five THEMIS spacecraft have discovered a breach in Earth's magnetic field ten times larger than anything previously thought to exist. Solar wind can flow in through the opening to "load up" the magnetosphere for powerful geomagnetic storms. But the breach itself is not the biggest surprise. Researchers are even more amazed at the strange and unexpected way it forms, overturning long-held ideas of space physics.

"At first I didn't believe it," says THEMIS project scientist David Sibeck of the Goddard Space Flight Center. "This finding fundamentally alters our understanding of the solar wind-magnetosphere interaction."


https://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2008/16dec_giantbreach

Even the great search for Dark Matter is looking like being a dud despite billions spent and decades of searching. Despite all such efforts there is absolutely Zero Evidence that such a ...Substance or Non substance actually exists.

Now give that a bit of thought for a while, despite decades of research and funding that have gone into the theoretical "Belief" that such a thing must exist. Yet despite all the multitudes of research and the Billions spent looking for it by many thousands of Qualified people all funded by every day familiy's, the Creme de La Creme of Scientific expertise are still unable to either identify or quantify Dark Matter in any way shape or form.

A recent study I saw showed that Indeed Dark matter is not needed to inform us of the way the Universe works at all.

I know that this is a "Fringe" thread here on WZ and not only not well read but when done so is also mostly ignored as well.

For anyone that is reading, instead of just taking my point of view on things about Solar influences outside of Sunspots, go do some real research yourselves and see how the Sun and Earths magnetic fields can influence the Weather on Earth.

It's not that hard to find information and you can make up your own mind on it all.

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#1497182 - 06/04/2019 07:50 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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What the sun is up to is of far greater importance than what earth is up to. It's interesting how things have kind of gone full circle with a return to an earth centric viewpoint currently in vogue. But the sun can cause major disruption and of course will ultimately destroy life on earth. The 1859 Carrington CME was a foretaste of disruption. Occuring today, it would have a major impact on an increasingly tech reliant civilisation. With a huge CME hitting us, despite shielding of vital grid components and transformer replacement, the electrical grid could collapse for weeks if not longer. Think of the chaos. Those with some bushcrafts and assorted survival skills will be better at handling it, but most will be adrift in a sea of helplessness. It's not a matter of if. It's a matter of when. And of course further down the track the sun will run out of fuel. It will expand before dying and fry earth to a crisp.
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#1497189 - 06/04/2019 10:10 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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And of course there is spaceweather that eminates from beyond our solar system. Your garden variety cosmic radiation and extreme bursts. Gamma bursts are hypothesied by some to have been a factor in past earth extinction events. Apart from the dangerous increased U.V caused by gamna ozone layer depletion directly impacting life on the land and in shallow water, a dirty smog formed by gamma rays creating nitrous dioxide would have blocked sunlight and led to rapid ice build up tipping into an iceage
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#1497246 - 07/04/2019 20:18 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
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Knot, the most that people generally know about the effects of space weather is Sun spot counts which in themselves are just a small portion of what effects the Earth in total when it comes to effects on our weather.
The Sun is able to change things in a geological instant on Earth, yet is still ignored as a computational constant by all weather models based only upon TSR input.

One has to wonder why despite all these new Satellites being sent off to investigate such phenomena that we hear so little about known effects overall ?

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#1497260 - 08/04/2019 09:03 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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The simple answer is inputers have to put food on the table and pay mortgages. In other words, inputing fruit that upsets the output apple cart might get you blackballed, fired, demoted or reassigned. If your lively hood depends on not rocking the boat, you might, out of self preservation, deliberately avoid material that will get the train going in the opposite direction to the gravy. Hmm. Now where is my tinfoil hat he he he
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#1497277 - 08/04/2019 20:47 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Seina Offline
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Registered: 27/08/2003
Posts: 7727
Loc: Adelaide Hills
Originally Posted By: marakai
Knot, the most that people generally know about the effects of space weather is Sun spot counts which in themselves are just a small portion of what effects the Earth in total when it comes to effects on our weather.
The Sun is able to change things in a geological instant on Earth, yet is still ignored as a computational constant by all weather models based only upon TSR input.

I posted some information and a link to a paper here about the effects of the astronomical Milankovitch Cycles on climate variability in the Miocene Epoch, and in particular their association to a warming optimum and cooling period since that optimum (during the Miocene).

If the said information is of no interest or fascination from an objective / scientific point-of-view, within this thread…I will discontinue this dialogue!

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#1497278 - 08/04/2019 21:27 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Seina]
Knot Offline
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Link seems dead Siera in that post. At least for me it is. Get 'this site (doi.wiley.com) can't be reached' message.
Off topic, but here is a link with info about possible first pics of a black hole event horizon to be revealed this week.
https://weather.com/news/news/2019-04-07-first-photos-black-hole-event-horizon
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#1497279 - 08/04/2019 21:51 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Knot]
Seina Offline
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Registered: 27/08/2003
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Loc: Adelaide Hills
Originally Posted By: Knot
Link seems dead Siera in that post. At least for me it is. Get 'this site (doi.wiley.com) can't be reached' message.

In that case:

https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/2013PA002538

smile


Edited by Seira (08/04/2019 21:52)

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#1497280 - 08/04/2019 22:27 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Seina]
Knot Offline
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That works. Muchos gracias
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#1497283 - 09/04/2019 00:05 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Knot]
marakai Offline
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Registered: 05/01/2006
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Originally Posted By: Knot
The simple answer is inputers have to put food on the table and pay mortgages. In other words, inputing fruit that upsets the output apple cart might get you blackballed, fired, demoted or reassigned. If your lively hood depends on not rocking the boat, you might, out of self preservation, deliberately avoid material that will get the train going in the opposite direction to the gravy. Hmm. Now where is my tinfoil hat he he he


I get that issue totally, but the absolute fact that so much is now being spent putting all these new instruments into space in the immediate term while so little focus is optically present in the MSM is quite curious to me to say the least.
You might want to try lead for that hat M8, I heard that it works a bit better and that Aluminum was a psyops put out in the 70's as Aluminum actually allowed for better transmission of brainwaves to the international collectors (/S). smile

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#1497284 - 09/04/2019 01:16 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Seina]
marakai Offline
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Originally Posted By: Seira
Originally Posted By: Knot
Link seems dead Siera in that post. At least for me it is. Get 'this site (doi.wiley.com) can't be reached' message.

In that case:

https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/2013PA002538

smile


Thanks for the refresh on the link Seira. I don't disagree with the long term cycles our planet passes through due to such acknowledged cycles such as Milankovitch ETC as they are clearly obvious and empirically evidenced via Orbital cycles along with the precession of the equinoxes which have an evident cyclic effect on the Earths Climate as well.

The paper you reference covers a vast amount of timespan and also includes ocean circulation which in and of itself is hazed with the mist's of time, although just with the Miocene alone leads me to think of the changes that occurred in our part of the World here in just Australia alone with the current arrangement of South East Asia and the oceanic currents that now flow through the passages between the Australian continent and Indonesia, PNG, the Torres Straight as a result of Continental movement ocean channels opening/closing and how all that has affected/effected changes of the climate all over and delivered us the the well known current climatic effects of the MJO as it condenses over the Indonesian archipelago and moves West. http://nci.org.au/research/madden-julian-oscillation-maritime-continent/

I would add though that all of the above are also a part of solar influences, the effects above are the result of millions of years of tectonic and gradual influences and in isolation are unable alone to explain the near instantaneous changes seen just 13-14,000 years ago nor any of the other similar changes in evidence from the geological records. Such changes are not the result of gradual tectonic shifts or the result of oceanic currents as a result.
There are clear cut influences outside of the expected gradual and explicable changes one would expect from gradual shift in orbit or precession as one would expect.

The info in your link associates geologic ages millions of years apart , the Miocene and Cenozoic for example and seeks to link them somehow with an association of cooling or warming yet neglects that these two ages are 40 million years apart at the very least and then seek to link it all to Astronomic cycles, Oceanic currents and then somehow fluctuations in the climate cycle ????
Quote:

1] We present high‐resolution (2–3 kyr) benthic foraminiferal stable isotopes in a continuous, well‐preserved sedimentary archive from the West Pacific Ocean (Ocean Drilling Program Site 1146), which track climate evolution in unprecedented resolution over the period 12.9 to 8.4 Ma. We developed an astronomically tuned chronology over this interval and integrated our new records with published isotope data from the same location to reconstruct long‐term climate and ocean circulation development between 16.4 and 8.4 Ma. This extended perspective reveals that the long eccentricity (400 kyr) cycle is prominently encoded in the δ13C signal over most of the record, reflecting long‐term fluctuations in the carbon cycle. The δ18O signal closely follows variations in short eccentricity (100 kyr) and obliquity (41 kyr). In particular, the obliquity cycle is prominent from ~14.6 to 14.1 Ma and from ~9.8 to 9.2 Ma, when high‐amplitude variability in obliquity is congruent with low‐amplitude variability in short eccentricity. The δ18O curve is additionally characterized by a series of incremental steps at ~14.6, 13.9, 13.1, 10.6, 9.9, and 9.0 Ma, which we attribute to progressive deep water cooling and/or glaciation episodes following the end of the Miocene climatic optimum. On the basis of δ18O amplitudes, we find that climate variability decreased substantially after ~13 Ma, except for a remarkable warming episode at ~10.8–10.7 Ma at peak insolation during eccentricity maxima (100 and 400 kyr). This transient warming, associated with a massive negative carbon isotope shift, is reminiscent of intense global warming events at eccentricity maxima during the Miocene climatic optimum.


https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/2013PA002538

They in fact never mention the Cenozoic again except as a reference for any of their recent..... "Discovery's"

I'm not judging You Seira, just the paper that you linked, I appreciate your input and participation in the overall discussion, the more the merrier and hopefully the more that become involved the more balanced the discussion becomes.

I try and endeavour to post factual and empirical evidence on this thread. If you find something wrong or incorrect, I expect to be corrected.. Please provide factual proof of any incorrect information.

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#1497356 - 10/04/2019 08:43 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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Registered: 01/05/2014
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Loc: Toronto N.S.W
Effects of solar wind reach deeper into the stratosohere of Jupiter's atmosphere than previously believed. The money quote ""What is startling about the results is that we were able to associate for the first time the variations in solar wind and the response in the stratosphere—and that the response to these variations is so quick for such a large area," said JPL's Glenn Orton, co-author and part of the observing".

Wouldn't be suprised to seeing the accepted knowledge about how far down the solar wind messes with Earth's atmosphere being upended eventually.
https://m.phys.org/news/2019-04-jupiter-atmosphere-solar.html
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#1497368 - 10/04/2019 17:32 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
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You would think that the effects on Earth are a lot stronger given our closeness to the Sun and our size compared to Jupiter as well.
Only a matter of time until these real Solar effects are recognized upon the actual weather of our planet.

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#1497371 - 10/04/2019 19:06 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Knot]
Flowin Offline
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Registered: 15/10/2017
Posts: 937
Loc: Pinjarra Hills, Qld
Originally Posted By: Knot
The simple answer is inputers have to put food on the table and pay mortgages. In other words, inputing fruit that upsets the output apple cart might get you blackballed, fired, demoted or reassigned. If your lively hood depends on not rocking the boat, you might, out of self preservation, deliberately avoid material that will get the train going in the opposite direction to the gravy. Hmm. Now where is my tinfoil hat he he he

The converse to that is people with a passion for the job with important roles to forecast weather for the benefit of the greater public good. It takes courage to forecast, and even more courage to change practices in forecasting. Courage grows when people have a go at improving with acceptance that the failures are possible.
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#1497384 - 10/04/2019 21:25 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Flowin]
marakai Offline
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Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2221
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: Flowin
Originally Posted By: Knot
The simple answer is inputers have to put food on the table and pay mortgages. In other words, inputing fruit that upsets the output apple cart might get you blackballed, fired, demoted or reassigned. If your lively hood depends on not rocking the boat, you might, out of self preservation, deliberately avoid material that will get the train going in the opposite direction to the gravy. Hmm. Now where is my tinfoil hat he he he

The converse to that is people with a passion for the job with important roles to forecast weather for the benefit of the greater public good. It takes courage to forecast, and even more courage to change practices in forecasting. Courage grows when people have a go at improving with acceptance that the failures are possible.


Sorry Flowin but that is a bit of a nonsensical post. Forecasts come with the applicable job description and are either accurate or not. Passion should not come into it if it is a Science based Job, it should just be about the Science.

Passion is an emotive that should not be a part of Science, like wise the greater public good.

Science is based upon facts and evidence,not passion or subjective opinions, Scientist's should just report the results, not their feelings or opinions.

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#1497386 - 10/04/2019 21:49 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Flowin Offline
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Registered: 15/10/2017
Posts: 937
Loc: Pinjarra Hills, Qld
Originally Posted By: marakai
Originally Posted By: Flowin
Originally Posted By: Knot
The simple answer is inputers have to put food on the table and pay mortgages. In other words, inputing fruit that upsets the output apple cart might get you blackballed, fired, demoted or reassigned. If your lively hood depends on not rocking the boat, you might, out of self preservation, deliberately avoid material that will get the train going in the opposite direction to the gravy. Hmm. Now where is my tinfoil hat he he he

The converse to that is people with a passion for the job with important roles to forecast weather for the benefit of the greater public good. It takes courage to forecast, and even more courage to change practices in forecasting. Courage grows when people have a go at improving with acceptance that the failures are possible.


Sorry Flowin but that is a bit of a nonsensical post. Forecasts come with the applicable job description and are either accurate or not. Passion should not come into it if it is a Science based Job, it should just be about the Science.

Passion is an emotive that should not be a part of Science, like wise the greater public good.

Science is based upon facts and evidence,not passion or subjective opinions, Scientist's should just report the results, not their feelings or opinions.

I understand that perspective Marakai. And may I use this opportunity to describe the reverse perspective of my previous post.
I agree with proposition that science should be based on facts and evidence. Occasionally such facts and evidence in science will indicate flaws with past or current science. Pragmatically it takes courage to challenge such past or current science. Courage should not be inhibited by roles and job descriptions and "upper management perspectives" but unfortunately such pressures can dominate, and more than pure science courage is needed for proactive improvement. Passion for the subject matter and objective understanding of the role does then come into play to properly develop science.


Edited by Flowin (10/04/2019 21:52)
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#1497390 - 11/04/2019 06:46 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Flowin Offline
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Registered: 15/10/2017
Posts: 937
Loc: Pinjarra Hills, Qld
Originally Posted By: marakai
Science is based upon facts and evidence

Sometimes also science develops from intelligent theories evolving from facts and evidence. While facts and evidence are needed for new theories, it can in some cases take a long time for the evidence to prove the theory.
For example the theories underlying the concepts of black holes started around 100 years ago. The observations to prove black holes took a long time. It is only today in 2019 that science has actually been able to capture an image of a black hole.
https://www.space.com/black-hole-event-horizon-images-einstein.html


Edited by Flowin (11/04/2019 06:48)

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#1497391 - 11/04/2019 07:05 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Flowin]
Knot Offline
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Registered: 01/05/2014
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Amazing confirmationary observation confirming a prediction of general relativity relating to a gravitational field being so strong that light itself would be unable to escape.
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#1497392 - 11/04/2019 07:17 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Flowin]
Knot Offline
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Registered: 01/05/2014
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Amazing photo confirmation of a prediction of general relativity relating to gravitational fields being so strong that light itself would be unable to escape.
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#1497409 - 11/04/2019 14:32 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Knot]
ozthunder Offline
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Registered: 23/09/2001
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Originally Posted By: Knot
Amazing confirmationary observation confirming a prediction of general relativity relating to a gravitational field being so strong that light itself would be unable to escape.


Yes I know, I thought the same thing at first, but the hole is still black.

As National geographic say: "More precisely, the hoped-for portrait is of a mysterious region that surrounds the black hole".

We are seeing the event horizon, not the back hole.
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#1497413 - 11/04/2019 15:09 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: ozthunder]
Knot Offline
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Registered: 01/05/2014
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Loc: Toronto N.S.W
Originally Posted By: ozthunder


We are seeing the event horizon, not the back hole.




Yep, nothing to see of the hole itself due to the immense gravity.
Such immense size. The hole is 40 billion km across. Pics of the hole in the middle of our galaxy are slated to be done next. Like a drain with water down the plug hole. What an interesting place it is beyond our small blue planet


Edited by Knot (11/04/2019 15:15)
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#1497414 - 11/04/2019 15:27 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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For perspective, our solar system out to the heliosohere boundary is thought to be 34 billion km in diameter.
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#1497454 - 12/04/2019 18:03 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
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Great discussion on Black Holes and Space in general. Brian cox on Joe Rogan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wieRZoJSVtw


Edited by marakai (12/04/2019 18:04)

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#1497455 - 12/04/2019 19:23 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Knot]
marakai Offline
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Registered: 05/01/2006
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Originally Posted By: Knot
Amazing photo confirmation of a prediction of general relativity relating to gravitational fields being so strong that light itself would be unable to escape.


Not sold on it all yet myself, a blurry image that needed an algorithm to produce showing a phenomenon that is still theoretical countless light years away, Colour me skeptical still for now.

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#1497456 - 12/04/2019 19:25 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: ozthunder]
Eigerwand Offline
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Registered: 28/05/2012
Posts: 431


Originally Posted By: ozthunder
Originally Posted By: Knot
Amazing confirmationary observation confirming a prediction of general relativity relating to a gravitational field being so strong that light itself would be unable to escape.


Yes I know, I thought the same thing at first, but the hole is still black.

As National geographic say: "More precisely, the hoped-for portrait is of a mysterious region that surrounds the black hole".

We are seeing the event horizon, not the back hole.



The event horizon forming a roughly circular shape, analogous to a halo. So what does one see if one bisects that halo? A dark void. Almost as though there was some kind of black hole inside the halo..

Like being in a cave and opening your eyes, as an organism primed to pick up light the ‘nothing’ is experientially still a something.
To put another way, given what we know about physics, assuming you wanted to return, would you cross that barrier of light in the innermost ring of that event horizon? No, that doesn’t LOOK like it would be a wise decision.

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#1497459 - 12/04/2019 19:39 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Eigerwand]
marakai Offline
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Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2221
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: Eigerwand


Originally Posted By: ozthunder
Originally Posted By: Knot
Amazing confirmationary observation confirming a prediction of general relativity relating to a gravitational field being so strong that light itself would be unable to escape.


Yes I know, I thought the same thing at first, but the hole is still black.

As National geographic say: "More precisely, the hoped-for portrait is of a mysterious region that surrounds the black hole".

We are seeing the event horizon, not the back hole.



The event horizon forming a roughly circular shape, analogous to a halo. So what does one see if one bisects that halo? A dark void. Almost as though there was some kind of black hole inside the halo..

Like being in a cave and opening your eyes, as an organism primed to pick up light the ‘nothing’ is experientially still a something.
To put another way, given what we know about physics, assuming you wanted to return, would you cross that barrier of light in the innermost ring of that event horizon? No, that doesn’t LOOK like it would be a wise decision.


I don't think you would ever get a choice to be honest Eigerwand, just being able to physically observe such a phenomena would be way too close for comfort let alone having any choices about what happens next.

truth be told we as a species don't even know enough about the Oceans on this planet let alone anything happening countless millions of KM away in space.

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#1497460 - 12/04/2019 19:39 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Seina Offline
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Registered: 27/08/2003
Posts: 7727
Loc: Adelaide Hills
Originally Posted By: marakai
https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/2013PA002538

They in fact never mention the Cenozoic again except as a reference for any of their recent..... "Discovery's"

I'm not judging You Seira, just the paper that you linked, I appreciate your input and participation in the overall discussion, the more the merrier and hopefully the more that become involved the more balanced the discussion becomes.

I try and endeavour to post factual and empirical evidence on this thread. If you find something wrong or incorrect, I expect to be corrected.. Please provide factual proof of any incorrect information.


One will need to detail more explicitly, exactly what is thought to be the Cenozoic and Miocene to proceed with the conversation more thoroughly smile .

It would be worth one's while to keep in mind that an expression of opinion [without references or relevant researchable materials] is not sufficient for objectivity.


Edited by Seira (12/04/2019 19:48)

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#1497463 - 12/04/2019 20:23 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Seina]
marakai Offline
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Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2221
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: Seira
Originally Posted By: marakai
https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/2013PA002538

They in fact never mention the Cenozoic again except as a reference for any of their recent..... "Discovery's"

I'm not judging You Seira, just the paper that you linked, I appreciate your input and participation in the overall discussion, the more the merrier and hopefully the more that become involved the more balanced the discussion becomes.

I try and endeavour to post factual and empirical evidence on this thread. If you find something wrong or incorrect, I expect to be corrected.. Please provide factual proof of any incorrect information.


One will need to detail more explicitly, exactly what is thought to be the Cenozoic and Miocene to proceed with the conversation more thoroughly smile .

It would be worth one's while to keep in mind that an expression of opinion [without references or relevant researchable materials] is not sufficient for objectivity.


Well the Cenozoic began roughly 65 Million years ago, generally understood to begin at the KT boundary give or take a million years or so. Just after the end of the Cretaceous or the end of the Dinosaur age.

The Miocene is generally understood to cover from roughly 25 million years ago up until 5 million years before present.

These are arbitrary delineation's between geological ages based upon realized distinctions in geological differences. :IE Geoligist's can point to a phaze change in the Earths Crust.

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#1497464 - 12/04/2019 20:26 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Seina Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 27/08/2003
Posts: 7727
Loc: Adelaide Hills
Originally Posted By: marakai
Well the Cenozoic began roughly 65 Million years ago, generally understood to begin at the KT boundary give or take a million years or so. Just after the end of the Cretaceous or the end of the Dinosaur age.

The Miocene is generally understood to cover from roughly 25 million years ago up until 5 million years before present.

That's right -- so the Miocene is within the Cenozoic, agreed?

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#1497466 - 12/04/2019 20:38 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Eigerwand Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 28/05/2012
Posts: 431
Originally Posted By: marakai
Originally Posted By: Eigerwand


Originally Posted By: ozthunder
Originally Posted By: Knot
Amazing confirmationary observation confirming a prediction of general relativity relating to a gravitational field being so strong that light itself would be unable to escape.


Yes I know, I thought the same thing at first, but the hole is still black.

As National geographic say: "More precisely, the hoped-for portrait is of a mysterious region that surrounds the black hole".

We are seeing the event horizon, not the back hole.



The event horizon forming a roughly circular shape, analogous to a halo. So what does one see if one bisects that halo? A dark void. Almost as though there was some kind of black hole inside the halo..

Like being in a cave and opening your eyes, as an organism primed to pick up light the ‘nothing’ is experientially still a something.
To put another way, given what we know about physics, assuming you wanted to return, would you cross that barrier of light in the innermost ring of that event horizon? No, that doesn’t LOOK like it would be a wise decision.


I don't think you would ever get a choice to be honest Eigerwand, just being able to physically observe such a phenomena would be way too close for comfort let alone having any choices about what happens next.

truth be told we as a species don't even know enough about the Oceans on this planet let alone anything happening countless millions of KM away in space.


You don’t need to get close, you have a photograph. If someone showed you said photograph and said; “We want you to fly from this side of the light to the other side of the light and bisect the dark centre”. Based on what you know about physics that doesn’t LOOK like it would be a good idea. My point is that ‘nothingness’ can still convey something to a conscious mind. If that nothingness is represented via visual absence of light, combined with your knowledge of extreme gravity you perceive it as a something. As such you ‘see’, despite the absence of light something your mind can form ideas about. Which is essentially all ‘seeing’ really is.

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#1497467 - 12/04/2019 20:38 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Seina]
marakai Offline
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Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2221
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: Seira
Originally Posted By: marakai
Well the Cenozoic began roughly 65 Million years ago, generally understood to begin at the KT boundary give or take a million years or so. Just after the end of the Cretaceous or the end of the Dinosaur age.

The Miocene is generally understood to cover from roughly 25 million years ago up until 5 million years before present.

That's right -- so the Miocene is within the Cenozoic, agreed?


Yes absolutely correct, the point being?

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#1497469 - 12/04/2019 20:58 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Seina Offline
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Registered: 27/08/2003
Posts: 7727
Loc: Adelaide Hills
Originally Posted By: marakai
Originally Posted By: Seira
Originally Posted By: marakai
Well the Cenozoic began roughly 65 Million years ago, generally understood to begin at the KT boundary give or take a million years or so. Just after the end of the Cretaceous or the end of the Dinosaur age.

The Miocene is generally understood to cover from roughly 25 million years ago up until 5 million years before present.

That's right -- so the Miocene is within the Cenozoic, agreed?


Yes absolutely correct, the point being?

It would be superfluous now – for clarity, what did you mean by this:

Originally Posted By: marakai
The info in your link associates geologic ages millions of years apart , the Miocene and Cenozoic for example and seeks to link them somehow with an association of cooling or warming yet neglects that these two ages are 40 million years apart at the very least and then seek to link it all to Astronomic cycles, Oceanic currents and then somehow fluctuations in the climate cycle ????


From post #1497284 - 09/04/2019 01:16.


Edited by Seira (12/04/2019 21:06)

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#1497470 - 12/04/2019 21:55 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
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Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2221
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Seira
You state abrupt/ climate variability way back in the Miocene and previous and then even since including the Holocene is recognized (US) smile

Not sure that I can argue that point at all, nor that I would. I could pump out numerous empirical records that support such findings as well though.
How well such actual empirical evidence would play out here is pretty predictable though, ancient history, not relevant in the current era ETC, the current models for the near future.

Despite all that I think that the past, as it is recognized is a greater indication of the future than all the "Models" that are the current arbiters of the future. What has gone before time and again is a much better forecast than a bunch of biased self focused forecasts pumped out by rote learning grad students trapped on the treadmill of university learning, all dependent upon getting a pass from their Biased Hierarchy.

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#1497474 - 12/04/2019 23:52 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
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I've made mine Seira, if you have a point as obtuse as it may be please provide it.


Quote:
#1497466 - Today at 19:38 .You don’t need to get close, you have a photograph. If someone showed you said photograph and said; “We want you to fly from this side of the light to the other side of the light and bisect the dark centre”. Based on what you know about physics that doesn’t LOOK like it would be a good idea. My point is that ‘nothingness’ can still convey something to a conscious mind. If that nothingness is represented via visual absence of light, combined with your knowledge of extreme gravity you perceive it as a something. As such you ‘see’, despite the absence of light something your mind can form ideas about. Which is essentially all ‘seeing’ really is.



Yeah I get what you mean, but it is all subjective, all you have is a photo based on an algorithm and a bunch of protagonist's promoting it as absolute proof, while in reality it is anything but. All it is, is a photo based upon an algorithm and nothing more.
I Don't know why I keep having the same discussion time after time with all this.

Actual Science is something that is Repetitive, IE Someone else can take the published results by another and reproduce the findings of the claims made by someone else, based upon the data provided by those making the original claims.
Why is it so hard for you to understand how actual Science works ?

You can be as subjective as you like, that does not mean that what you "Believe" is an actual repetitive and Predictable outcome based upon an repetitive and predictive outcome.

One is Science and one is opinion or subjective thought.

Reality is the difference between the two.

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#1497489 - 13/04/2019 20:16 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Seina Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 27/08/2003
Posts: 7727
Loc: Adelaide Hills
Originally Posted By: marakai
I've made mine Seira, if you have a point as obtuse as it may be please provide it.

My point was probably contextually too slow for the impression I get of the pace of this thread: I read your critique of the linked paper I provided. I am not trying to catch you out, however I suggest clarity particularly in relation to the Eras, Periods and Epochs in Earth's apparent geological past.

My point was that because the Miocene is within the Cenozoic, there is no gap between the two. This would be relevant if one wished to be serious and specific about the geological time scale...however I am not that fussed if it was an oversight smile .


Edited by Seira (13/04/2019 20:18)

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#1497492 - 14/04/2019 03:01 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Seina]
marakai Offline
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Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2221
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: Seira
Originally Posted By: marakai
I've made mine Seira, if you have a point as obtuse as it may be please provide it.

My point was probably contextually too slow for the impression I get of the pace of this thread: I read your critique of the linked paper I provided. I am not trying to catch you out, however I suggest clarity particularly in relation to the Eras, Periods and Epochs in Earth's apparent geological past.

My point was that because the Miocene is within the Cenozoic, there is no gap between the two. This would be relevant if one wished to be serious and specific about the geological time scale...however I am not that fussed if it was an oversight smile .

Yeah things change Seira, though the scale of millions of years compared to the Bee's dick level of our own existence does matter, to us at least when it comes to the comprehension of such existential matters.
Still, I totally agree that on the larger time scale you are quite correct and that we can not disregard the past evidence that leads us to this point in time , Nor what it tells us about the here and now as we interpret it.
Just the mind numbing difference of time between the Cenozoic and the Miocene as we understand it , multiple millions of years that we are hard up understanding in scale alone let alone comprehending the changes that took place in the evolution of our species and the planet as a whole, just that by itself deserves an whole other thread.

Unfortunately though you are corresponding with someone who got kicked out of a Catholic High School at the age of 15 in the deep dark North of Australia and went to work as a Butcher back in the very early 80's and then spent the better part of the next ten years of their life as a Nightclub DJ.

A good part of thirty years later and after raising five kids, here we are discussing aspects of the planets weather on an internet forum that wont allow a real discussion of such, despite not ever meeting each other.

Funny how the world changed societally but not so much on forums such as this huh ? We are free to discuss issues such as space weather, but not the Holy Cow openly since 2013 ?
We can open threads that skirt around it to a point, but any open discussion is knocked on the head straight up.

Threads such as this are allowed as long as you walk a very fine line about what you post, but when a die hard fanatic from the opposing point of view post's contrary dogma from the opposing point of view on a thread deliberately, the whole thing get's shut down.

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#1497496 - 14/04/2019 09:25 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
bbowen Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 30/03/2011
Posts: 170
Ohh FFS Marakai How come every thread I see you pop up in, you keep pushing your agenda regardless of whether it was warranted or not. You really need to take a step back and just accept that if you don't like this thread/forum/discussion you go and discuss your topics elsewhere it really isn't that hard. It is like a kid whining over their lollies being taken.

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#1497508 - 14/04/2019 16:06 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Seina Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 27/08/2003
Posts: 7727
Loc: Adelaide Hills
Originally Posted By: marakai
We are free to discuss issues such as space weather, but not the Holy Cow openly since 2013 ?

That is correct! It was revoked by the admin, for all! My understanding is climate can be discussed, but not with the added word on the end!


Edited by Seira (14/04/2019 16:15)

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#1497513 - 14/04/2019 17:21 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Petros Offline
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Registered: 30/12/2002
Posts: 7930
Loc: Maffra, Central Gippsland, Vi...
Taboo subject or not, my view is that what happened on earth millions of years ago is interesting fact/fossil wise, .....but not really relevant to this topic nor the taboo subject.

Because millions of years ago the earths continents/oceans were in different places, the earths planetary neighbours were in a different location in the cosmos, and the sun was a lot younger. Indeed for me, going back even only centuries ago to look for present time weather analogs holds little interest as conditions, even decades ago may never be precisely replicated.

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#1497537 - 15/04/2019 18:42 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: bbowen]
marakai Offline
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Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2221
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: bbowen
Ohh FFS Marakai How come every thread I see you pop up in, you keep pushing your agenda regardless of whether it was warranted or not. You really need to take a step back and just accept that if you don't like this thread/forum/discussion you go and discuss your topics elsewhere it really isn't that hard. It is like a kid whining over their lollies being taken.


Umm...I might be wrong, but I think I actually started this thread bbowen... Maybe you need to be aware of where you are and what you are replying to before responding huh ?

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#1497538 - 15/04/2019 18:59 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Petros Offline
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Registered: 30/12/2002
Posts: 7930
Loc: Maffra, Central Gippsland, Vi...
Always interested to read your input on this fascinating weather facet maraki.

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#1497544 - 15/04/2019 19:36 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Petros]
marakai Offline
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Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2221
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: Petros
Always interested to read your input on this fascinating weather facet maraki.

I appreciate that Petros, I would also hope that others realize that it is just an opinion which is expressed so that an actual discussion might take place. Unfortunately you get the occasional febrile opinion and personality that is just unable to deal with anyone else having an opposing point of view on anything at all.

Just discussion itself is akin to Blasphemy, and openly questioning becomes Satanistic to some.

Once upon a time people could actually have a discussion about such things.

Now just mentioning a different point of view is met by fanatical and unfounded diatribe by many where any sort of actual questioning is met by vehemence and ridicule just for the mere fact of questioning the status quo.

The mere point of raising a pertinent FACT attracts personal and baseless attacks just for questioning Science.

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#1497546 - 15/04/2019 19:52 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
cold@28 Offline
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Registered: 07/02/2011
Posts: 2958
Loc: Chillagoe
Originally Posted By: marakai
...I would also hope that others realize that it is just an opinion which is expressed so that an actual discussion might take place. Unfortunately you get the occasional febrile opinion and personality that is just unable to deal with anyone else having an opposing point of view on anything at all.

Just discussion itself is akin to Blasphemy, and openly questioning becomes Satanistic to some.

Once upon a time people could actually have a discussion about such things.

Now just mentioning a different point of view is met by fanatical and unfounded diatribe by many where any sort of actual questioning is met by vehemence and ridicule just for the mere fact of questioning the status quo.

The mere point of raising a pertinent FACT attracts personal and baseless attacks just for questioning Science.

You're right marakai. No-one discusses anything now. People are completely polarised, and go on the attack if they even think you disagree. It's like they don't know what a discussion is. And they are not even willing to listen to anyone's point of view, just cut you off. It's very sad really.

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#1497549 - 15/04/2019 21:08 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Flowin Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 15/10/2017
Posts: 937
Loc: Pinjarra Hills, Qld
Improved science only occurs when there is discussion.
Discussion only gets meaningful when there is respect AND acknowledgement of other opinions. That in itself is challenging enough. It is even more challenging though in this modern expectation of political correctness.
Overcoming all those challenges takes courage. Courage is assisted with those with a passion for the topic. Being passionate about a topic is not enough as it also needs open minded objectivity.
Apologies if all of the above is ideological, bring on the discussion but just be careful that discussion is not always easy.


Edited by Flowin (15/04/2019 21:10)

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#1497550 - 15/04/2019 21:08 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: cold@28]
marakai Offline
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Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2221
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: cold@28
Originally Posted By: marakai
...I would also hope that others realize that it is just an opinion which is expressed so that an actual discussion might take place. Unfortunately you get the occasional febrile opinion and personality that is just unable to deal with anyone else having an opposing point of view on anything at all.

Just discussion itself is akin to Blasphemy, and openly questioning becomes Satanistic to some.

Once upon a time people could actually have a discussion about such things.

Now just mentioning a different point of view is met by fanatical and unfounded diatribe by many where any sort of actual questioning is met by vehemence and ridicule just for the mere fact of questioning the status quo.

The mere point of raising a pertinent FACT attracts personal and baseless attacks just for questioning Science.


You're right marakai. No-one discusses anything now. People are completely polarised, and go on the attack if they even think you disagree. It's like they don't know what a discussion is. And they are not even willing to listen to anyone's point of view, just cut you off. It's very sad really.

\
Thankyou for that Coldy, I personally get a great deal of satisfaction knowing that people like yourself are still out there thinking for themselves and at the same time are reading and making their own minds up about what they read. Not that they believe what I post, but that they read and check stuff out for themselves.

I don't have a problem with people who disagree, just those who like little Children are suppliant to all they are told and that accept all they are told.
Not and never trying to convert anyone though, just looking for a discussion is all.


Edited by marakai (15/04/2019 21:10)

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#1497551 - 15/04/2019 21:17 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Seina Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 27/08/2003
Posts: 7727
Loc: Adelaide Hills
If others wished to explore space weather and its effects on our climate, maybe looking further into the Milankovitch Factors would be of assistance. Just a thought/suggestion smile . Alternatively tidal braking due to lunar effects could be examined.

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#1497576 - 16/04/2019 17:53 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
bbowen Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 30/03/2011
Posts: 170
Marakai, Who started the thread has no bearing on what I said, this thread is about Space weather so talk all you want about that. It is the constant jabs you put in about the forum in general, regardless of relevance that wears thin.

You might find this odd but I find a lot of what you say both interesting and though provoking and I also agree with some of your points.

These forums have rules for a reason because people tend to get out of control, yes you and I are guilty, so always bringing it up gets weary. I know your views on the forum, I agree as do others but let it go.

BTW, You seem to also make a lot of assumptions of people that you don't really know, when they have an opposing view.

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#1497583 - 16/04/2019 19:55 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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Registered: 01/05/2014
Posts: 2701
Loc: Toronto N.S.W

If down the track it became accepted science that what bombards earth from across the entire electromagnetic spectrum was the paramount driver of earth climate, than it would have been thus for all earth history. This makes the entire scope of the geological past not only relevant, but a prime consideration in my opinion.
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#1497641 - 18/04/2019 16:36 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Delta-T Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 21/01/2011
Posts: 156
Loc: Peachester
On and on and on, thread after thread; thinly veiled climate denial flame-bait and you play all innocent when they get shut down.

These quotes from the last six days alone.

"pumped out by rote learning grad students trapped on the treadmill of university learning, all dependent upon getting a pass from their Biased Hierarchy"

"die hard fanatic from the opposing point of view post's contrary dogma"

"akin to Blasphemy, and openly questioning becomes Satanistic to some"

"met by fanatical and unfounded diatribe"

"met by vehemence and ridicule just for the mere fact of questioning the status quo"

"those who like little Children are suppliant to all they are told and that accept all they are told"

"I Don't know why I keep having the same discussion time after time with all this."

Neither does anyone else.

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#1497647 - 18/04/2019 20:24 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Delta-T]
Knot Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 01/05/2014
Posts: 2701
Loc: Toronto N.S.W
Do you have to use the loaded terms 'denier' 'denial' when voicing your opinions regarding other posters whose opinions you don't share. It personally creeps me out with visions of Inquisition. Surely you could use a more nuanced term that allows for conversation. As far as spaceweather being a climate driver, do you have any opnion about it?
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#1497650 - 18/04/2019 21:19 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Delta-T Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 21/01/2011
Posts: 156
Loc: Peachester
The effect of spaceweather on the earth's climate is barely non-zero compared with about thirty other metrics.

Anything but CO2.

If I keep reading denier flamebait bs as above I will keep calling it out as denier flamebait bs and if the thread is closed the OP can blame himself.

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#1497652 - 18/04/2019 22:18 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Delta-T]
Seina Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 27/08/2003
Posts: 7727
Loc: Adelaide Hills
Originally Posted By: Delta-T
The effect of spaceweather on the earth's climate is barely non-zero compared with about thirty other metrics.

The thing is, until other people provide evidence and an interpretation for such a hypothesis of that nature, contextually it is another point of view.

The one thing -- above all -- I'd like to know is whether it is possible to have sound, thorough objective discussion on this weather forum. But I am not out to make it happen...I tend to think it's the decision of the collective, and see how that collective decision bodes with time.


Edited by Seira (18/04/2019 22:19)

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#1497653 - 18/04/2019 22:24 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Delta-T]
Knot Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 01/05/2014
Posts: 2701
Loc: Toronto N.S.W
I think you are going out on a limb saying spaceweather has no appreciable climate impact compared to other things like the gas you mention. The tools currently studying it mught be thought of as primitive in 100 years. For the record I am not against that gas having a climate impact. I just don't see it as something to get apocalyptic about. There are far greater things beyond our atmosphere that have caused rapid ecosystem desolation. Gamma ray bursts as has been brought up. And then there's asteroids, rogue comets. Possibly microbes from space. Probably other things we no little about. There won't be much in the way of warnings. Hopefully a lot of us will be asleep should such things happen.
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#1497662 - 19/04/2019 08:17 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Eigerwand Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 28/05/2012
Posts: 431
I’m with you Delta-T. Nothing I have seen in this thread has really caught my eye as to demonstrating some phenomena that was hitherto unknown or under-appreciated as a driver of the Earth’s climate, based on current scientific evidence and not just random speculation.

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#1497667 - 19/04/2019 10:16 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 01/05/2014
Posts: 2701
Loc: Toronto N.S.W
The Younger Dryas is an interesting period due to the rapid onset of cooling when an iceage was coming to an end. It is generally believed that massive freshwater runoff altered the heat transfer conveyor in the Atlantic. But what caused the massive freshwater dumping has different hypotheses. A disputed one was the impact theory. It has been challenged as lacking evidence. https://www.sciencenews.org/article/younger-dryas-comet-impact-cold-snap
However the discovery of a large impact crater in Greenland may give credence to the impact hypothesis https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/11/...act-time-humans

If eventually it is confirmed that the Younger Dryas cooling event was impact related than it would be pretty indicative that beyond our world there lurks some pretty cool stuff that can have a direct causative effect on the entire earths climate. A sobering thought as it is a question of when, not if, it happening again.
P.s Comets, meteorites are not spaceweather per se, but they come from space so maybe should be included under the umbrella of spaceweather.



Edited by Knot (19/04/2019 10:19)
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#1497669 - 19/04/2019 11:49 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Delta-T Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 21/01/2011
Posts: 156
Loc: Peachester
Knot, I commend you for posting something interesting about "Space Weather", if you can call a bollide weather. Any "Driving" is speculative of course, compared to say atmospheric chemistry change, but good luck.

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#1497672 - 19/04/2019 12:28 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Delta-T]
Knot Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 01/05/2014
Posts: 2701
Loc: Toronto N.S.W
lol. Well I did say that objects etc from space weren't spaceweather per se. But point taken


Edited by Knot (19/04/2019 12:30)
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#1497743 - 20/04/2019 23:13 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: bbowen]
marakai Offline
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Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2221
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: bbowen
Marakai, Who started the thread has no bearing on what I said, this thread is about Space weather so talk all you want about that. It is the constant jabs you put in about the forum in general, regardless of relevance that wears thin.

You might find this odd but I find a lot of what you say both interesting and though provoking and I also agree with some of your points.

These forums have rules for a reason because people tend to get out of control, yes you and I are guilty, so always bringing it up gets weary. I know your views on the forum, I agree as do others but let it go.

BTW, You seem to also make a lot of assumptions of people that you don't really know, when they have an opposing view.



Yet to see you actually take part in any sort of discussion on the subject's raised bbowen except for the odd comment in either this or any previous contact we have had here, so you must excuse my assumptions.
Maybe next time if you were not to start out with "Oh FFS" as your first word in comment then we might endeavour to have a less confrontational basis for communication.
As for my forum comments:, If opinions are not expressed and discussed, then what hope is there for any change ? The members here are the actual product of this website, and WZ would not exist without us all. Yes they do provide a service, but at the same time it is the membership base that allows WZ to exist as a viable ongoing concern which provides such a service.

It is my opinion that you can't have one without the other, and that the "Rules" are imposed not only for the relief and or convenience of Mods who would appear to be unpaid volunteer types, but also so as to appear as a neutral source of information to the general public. That is the owners right and they are under no obligation to provide a platform for either side of the "forbidden" debate. That said though, some Mod's and or owners of the sight may have a leaning one way or another as well, as is their right also.

My opinion is subject to a bunch of gate keepers as a result, so far I have not been subject to ANY personal censure for my personal opinion on any of the subjects I have chosen to post upon except for two occasions over the last decade or more, I once wished a new years gift of a broken leg upon one person and was also censured recently for inappropriate racial profiling on a certain topic, I think I received a 3 day time out for my first one.

All other deletes of posts of mine have been in response to post's of other so far as I am aware, though I stand to be corrected if people can provide evidence of such over the last ten years.

The problem that we have here is a failure to communicate.

Just think

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#1497747 - 20/04/2019 23:52 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Knot]
marakai Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2221
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: Knot

If down the track it became accepted science that what bombards earth from across the entire electromagnetic spectrum was the paramount driver of earth climate, than it would have been thus for all earth history. This makes the entire scope of the geological past not only relevant, but a prime consideration in my opinion.


Think about it Knot (though you already obviously have).

All people know about in general is Sunspot's. Nothing at all about the Electro Magnetic field surrounding and protecting the Earth, it's Weakening or Strengthening. Likewise the Strength or Weakness of that of the sun's own magnetic field which also protects Earth from Galactic cosmic ray's and other assorted effects.
No thought at all given to the changing/Swapping of the Electromagnetic poles of either the Earth or the Sun and what effects that might have as it occurs, Which is actually happening right now.

No thought at all, that while both the Earth and the Sun have had up until recent times quite a robust Electromagnetic Field protection of the Earth, both are falling away at the same time and exposing the Earth to not only any large solar discharges which might occur, but also Galactic effects as well.

No thought as to how the now known yet previously ignored effects of Coronal Solar Holes, protons, Solar wind and Charged particles and plasma that bombard Earth each and every minute of every day have an effect on our Planet and it's weather.

The silence about it all is deafening. Try and discuss it with supposed like minded people interested in an associated subject such as Weather and all you get are Crickets and the associated Scorpions and Centipedes who's only interest is to take an interest in floating you over the River and the bite. (IE The Scorpion and the Frog).

All I am after is a discussion about such things. But it would seem that any sort of honest discussion here is impossible as the mere mention of something that dares to question the "Status Quo" is immediately labeled as 1984 style wrong think and targeted by a specialized Cadre of NPC's who's life seems to depend upon either disrupting or disputing any sort of contrary thought or even any suggestion of it while never suffering any sort of discipline as a result either.

Appreciate your thoughts Knot, open minds are a rare thing in this day and age.
I'm not after conformation of my thoughts or opinions but just about having a discussion that can be had with similar curious minds that are open to the concept of... if the information changes.... then so can my Mind/Opinion as well.


Edited by marakai (20/04/2019 23:54)

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#1497750 - 21/04/2019 00:06 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Delta-T]
marakai Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2221
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: Delta-T
On and on and on, thread after thread; thinly veiled climate denial flame-bait and you play all innocent when they get shut down.

These quotes from the last six days alone.

"pumped out by rote learning grad students trapped on the treadmill of university learning, all dependent upon getting a pass from their Biased Hierarchy"

"die hard fanatic from the opposing point of view post's contrary dogma"

"akin to Blasphemy, and openly questioning becomes Satanistic to some"

"met by fanatical and unfounded diatribe"

"met by vehemence and ridicule just for the mere fact of questioning the status quo"

"those who like little Children are suppliant to all they are told and that accept all they are told"

"I Don't know why I keep having the same discussion time after time with all this."

Neither does anyone else.


Hello Darkness My Old Friend,
I see youv'e come to play again,
In the shadows you keep creeping,
With no substance you keep speaking,

With a voice, that everybody hears,
Yet it's all... without any substance.

So Delta, I would love for you to go back and grab any of the above quotes and put them into full context so that we might go through them all one by one together and see what sort of an antagonist you really are and show everybody reading this your real agenda.

Your all quick off the mark to nail anybody else with such a label but as a true believer, I'm sure you are quite aware of Ole Saul and his work.

go ahead Delta and show us who you really are.

Projection Much ?




Edited by marakai (21/04/2019 00:08)

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#1497751 - 21/04/2019 00:28 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Seina]
marakai Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2221
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: Seina
Originally Posted By: Delta-T
The effect of spaceweather on the earth's climate is barely non-zero compared with about thirty other metrics.

The thing is, until other people provide evidence and an interpretation for such a hypothesis of that nature, contextually it is another point of view.

The one thing -- above all -- I'd like to know is whether it is possible to have sound, thorough objective discussion on this weather forum. But I am not out to make it happen...I tend to think it's the decision of the collective, and see how that collective decision bodes with time.


Not that it's up to you Seina, either the discussion side of things nor the effects of Space Weather.

I might observe though, that the collective is not what it seems or is projected as. Those such as Delta and it's NPC comrades would have you believe that they are the consensus and that they represent the majority, the likes of the Project on 10 and the 7:30 report on the ABC all report the same regurgitated lame stream news report over and over for a few days on a convenient news piece put out by XYZ. Just check out the latest of Walrus' Committing Suicide rather than watching the latest MAFS series... Damn I meant Cause Climate Change and Polar Bears and Stuff ETC.

Never mind that the footage was filmed a few years back and it is a regular occurrence and all that. Just Blame it on Humans right, without any empirical evidence and ram that point home with a DOCO right ?

People need to wake up to what is happening here, Hand's up anyone who think's that they are responsible for Walrus' jumping off a cliff ?

And if so why... Please provide some Empirical Evidence of such as well.

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#1497756 - 21/04/2019 07:08 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 01/05/2014
Posts: 2701
Loc: Toronto N.S.W
I think perspective is a big part in this discussion. For me personally, the only way of maintaining it, is keeping in mind the totality of Earth's physical history. Spaceweather has been, and always will be impacting our small blue planet. Discovering just what those impacts may be and the effects on climate(s) on Earth is so fascinating.
_________________________
Land Ahoy! Ooops!

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#1497816 - 23/04/2019 07:40 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 01/05/2014
Posts: 2701
Loc: Toronto N.S.W
I found an interesting read regarding gamma ray bursts which were found to be at their most intense during solar minimums. There is some not fully understood relationship suggested between these bursts, the suns fluctuating magnetic field and interstellar bombardment of the sun from supernovae or neutron star collisions and solar cycle. When the sun cycle is maximum the gamma burst taper off. This is very interesting, as during a solar maximum less gamma rays would be hitting the Earth. And during minimum the opposite would be the case. If gamma rays are involved in cloud forming nucleation, then more cloud cover would be expected during solar minimums and hence cooler climate. The inverse occuring during maximums. https://www.scientificamerican.com/artic...-one-knows-why/
_________________________
Land Ahoy! Ooops!

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#1497825 - 23/04/2019 11:16 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Knot]
Delta-T Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 21/01/2011
Posts: 156
Loc: Peachester
Interesting stuff but from the link:

"The solar cycle also plays a minor role in climate, as variations in irradiance can cause slight changes in average sea-surface temperatures and precipitation patterns."

Again, interesting. Also interesting has been the negative corellation between irradiance and global temperatures as we descend into the so-called solar minimum, I guess something else is swamping the solar variation's influence.



Makes sense if the solar cycle is only a "minor" player.

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#1497834 - 23/04/2019 16:25 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Delta-T Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 21/01/2011
Posts: 156
Loc: Peachester
If you're into solar cycles here is something to get your teeth into and discussed further here.

"It tells a story of long slow decline into icier and icier conditions, although we may have levelled off over the last million years.

But there’s more to the data than the very-long-term trend. There’s all that wiggling around up and down, which it turns out isn’t just random. It shows structure, in fact it shows cyclic behavior..."

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#1497837 - 23/04/2019 16:40 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Delta-T]
Knot Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 01/05/2014
Posts: 2701
Loc: Toronto N.S.W
Yes I saw that in the article. It is a statement by Shannon Hall and perhaps editorial staff at Scientific American. It may be true. But advances in understanding down the track may render the claim as obselete. Regardless, it is interesting about the connection with supernovae and neutron stars bombarding the sun and causing showers of gamma rays that would normally be absorbed, but due to magnetic field fluctuations , can escape. And quote 'If this is happening, the gamma rays Fermi has been detecting are likely some of those high-energy escapees.
If this interpretation is correct, says Randy Jokipii, a retired astronomer from the University of Arizona who was not involved in the study, it is no surprise high-energy gamma rays are more likely to be emitted during solar minimum. When the solar cycle is at low ebb, he says, there is a reduction in its outgoing “winds” of charged particles—which act as a shield to deflect incoming cosmic rays. This reduction allows more cosmic rays to enter our solar system, and our star itself. So an uptick in cosmic rays should lead to an uptick in gamma rays.' unquote.
This is a newish discovery. Who knows where it leads.
_________________________
Land Ahoy! Ooops!

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#1497839 - 23/04/2019 17:28 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
MOUNTAIN h2o Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 23/03/2012
Posts: 771
Loc: Hobart Lenah Valley Tas 198 as...
Anyone think that we are drifting towards the Sun and no one is game enough to tell the populace ?
Imagine the the chaos and anarchy that would unfold. Is it just possible ?

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#1497840 - 23/04/2019 17:34 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Raindammit Offline
Weatherzone Moderator

Registered: 14/02/2002
Posts: 13341
Loc: Townsville & Bilyana NQ
For that to happen, you'd think there would have to be a major disruption to the earth's orbit due to some sort of massive object (rouge planet or other large stellar object, black hole etc etc). I can't see how that would go unnoticed, even by the general population.
_________________________
Belgian Gardens, Townsville NQ
Bilyana FNQ

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#1497841 - 23/04/2019 18:13 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Kino Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 10/08/2017
Posts: 3266
Loc: Wollongong, NSW, Aus
Unless it happened pre tech era and it’s slowly drifting closer?

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#1497843 - 23/04/2019 19:03 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 01/05/2014
Posts: 2701
Loc: Toronto N.S.W
The quake that triggered the 2004 boxing day tsunami added around and inch to the earth's 33 feet wobble. The Japan quake of 2011 shortened the day by 1.8 microseconds ( far less than the wind effect by a factor of 300). It would take a massive cluster to change earth orbit much from terrestrial events. Extraterrestrial is another matter. There haven't been any of those or we would know about it in our time. Despite that, I have thought about the possibility of orbital changes beyond the accepted Milankovitch cycles.
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Land Ahoy! Ooops!

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#1497847 - 23/04/2019 20:57 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
MOUNTAIN h2o Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 23/03/2012
Posts: 771
Loc: Hobart Lenah Valley Tas 198 as...
Thanks for the responses smile Interesting forum and a great read for sure.

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#1497851 - 23/04/2019 21:41 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Raindammit]
Delta-T Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 21/01/2011
Posts: 156
Loc: Peachester
Originally Posted By: Raindammit
For that to happen, you'd think there would have to be a major disruption to the earth's orbit due to some sort of massive object (rouge planet or other large stellar object, black hole etc etc). I can't see how that would go unnoticed, even by the general population.


I don't think it matters what colour it is.

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#1497876 - Yesterday at 19:23 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 01/05/2014
Posts: 2701
Loc: Toronto N.S.W
Speaking of colours, this pic from 2005 shows what the Earth would look like if we could see gamma ray wavelengths
_________________________
Land Ahoy! Ooops!

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#1497877 - Yesterday at 19:42 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 01/05/2014
Posts: 2701
Loc: Toronto N.S.W
Just to show I'm a gamma ray junkie I can't help but post this snippet about a GRB's energy. When I read it I almost fell down with a 'you have to be #ckin' kidding.' Quote "Gamma-ray bursts are the most energetic and luminous electromagnetic events since the Big Bang and can release more energy in 10 seconds than our Sun will emit in its entire 10-billion-year expected lifetime!". Unquote. https://science.nasa.gov/ems/12_gammarays

It would be exciting if in the future an inverse relationship was discovered between forcing gases and gamma rays and thus on the radiative balance.
_________________________
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#1497878 - Yesterday at 20:13 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 01/05/2014
Posts: 2701
Loc: Toronto N.S.W
The following link, though headed by a very brief abstract, has an extensive reference list of articles, many of which discuss gamma rays. Enough reading for the next 20 years. Very intriguing about possible linkages between lightning/ thunderstorms and gamma rays ( terrestrial eminating and cosmic). https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10712-018-9469-z
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Land Ahoy! Ooops!

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#1497887 - Yesterday at 21:52 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Knot]
Eigerwand Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 28/05/2012
Posts: 431
Originally Posted By: Knot
Just to show I'm a gamma ray junkie I can't help but post this snippet about a GRB's energy. When I read it I almost fell down with a 'you have to be #ckin' kidding.' Quote "Gamma-ray bursts are the most energetic and luminous electromagnetic events since the Big Bang and can release more energy in 10 seconds than our Sun will emit in its entire 10-billion-year expected lifetime!". Unquote. https://science.nasa.gov/ems/12_gammarays

It would be exciting if in the future an inverse relationship was discovered between forcing gases and gamma rays and thus on the radiative balance.


Radiation in the form of gamma rays is produced in the core of the sun but as these particles collide with other particles on their journey to the surface of the sun, they lose much of their energy. By the time they reach the surface of the sun they have become the more familiar, uv, visible light, infrared etc. I would think given the sporadic nature that the Earth would receive gamma ray radiation from supernova, neutron stars etc it would be extremely unlikely such a mechanism would play a role in the Earth’s finely tuned homeostasis. I can’t see any reason to expect a relationship between gamma ray radiation and forcing gases. Particularly as most forcing gases are in the lower layers of the atmosphere, further discounting the likelihood of a relationship between the two in maintaining radiative balance.

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#1497891 - Today at 02:15 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: MOUNTAIN h2o]
marakai Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2221
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: MOUNTAIN h2o
Anyone think that we are drifting towards the Sun and no one is game enough to tell the populace ?
Imagine the the chaos and anarchy that would unfold. Is it just possible ?


Doub't it very much M8, "but what if the Sun was drifting towards us instead" ? Sigh... Nah that's not gonna happen I don't think.

Much more chance of me as a + 50 year old making out with Taylor Swift or some such ephemeral thought than that happening in our life time.

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#1497892 - Today at 02:33 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Delta-T]
marakai Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2221
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: Delta-T
Interesting stuff but from the link:

"The solar cycle also plays a minor role in climate, as variations in irradiance can cause slight changes in average sea-surface temperatures and precipitation patterns."

Again, interesting. Also interesting has been the negative corellation between irradiance and global temperatures as we descend into the so-called solar minimum, I guess something else is swamping the solar variation's influence.



Makes sense if the solar cycle is only a "minor" player.


Delta.
I honestly don't think you know what you are trying to explain here really. You don't seem to have a real grasp of what the Sun provides other than what you are personally looking for.

I understand that you have a personal "Belief" on the subject at hand, but in reality you seem to be unable to grasp the actual Science as provided.

Just as an example , could you let us all know the effects of a large Coronal hole directed towards the Earth as opposed to a large Flaring Sunspot directed away from the Earth ?

Maybe let us all know the effects of a Weakening magnetic shield produced from the Earth and maybe the effects of a 10X Solar Flare directed straight towards our planet ... ??

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#1497893 - Today at 02:49 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2221
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
All you have is a chart, which represents what exactly? .

In the words of a great Aussie politician....

Please Explain ?

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#1497894 - Today at 06:22 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Eigerwand]
Knot Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 01/05/2014
Posts: 2701
Loc: Toronto N.S.W
Gamma rays bursts are also emitted by the earth itself, through our atmosphere into space. Satellites have detected this phenomena since gamma ray detectors have been utilised.The source is open to conjecture. Sunil Gupta, an expert on such matters from India, proposes that thunderstorms are the cause. Quote "the violently powerful potential of thunderstorms could help settle a cosmic mystery that scientists like Gupta and his colleagues have asked for decades: Why do satellites sometimes detect high-energy
gamma rays blasting out of Earth's atmosphere
, when they should be raining down from space?
According to Gupta, if thunderstorms can indeed create an electric potential greater than one gigavolt, they could also accelerate electrons quickly enough to break apart other atoms in the atmosphere, producing gamma-ray flashes.
This explanation requires more research to verify its accuracy, Gupta said." Unquote
If Gupta's hypothesis proves correct and thunderstorms do produce GRB than that opens up some exciting lines of enquiry vis a vis atmospheric physics and chemistry. https://www.livescience.com/65055-thundercloud-voltage-mapped-with-muons.html


Edited by Knot (Today at 06:28)
_________________________
Land Ahoy! Ooops!

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#1497908 - Today at 11:51 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Delta-T Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 21/01/2011
Posts: 156
Loc: Peachester
Originally Posted By: marakai
could you let us all know the effects of a large Coronal hole directed towards the Earth as opposed to a large Flaring Sunspot directed away from the Earth ?

Maybe let us all know the effects of a Weakening magnetic shield produced from the Earth and maybe the effects of a 10X Solar Flare directed straight towards our planet ... ??


I provided evidence showing there is no corellation bewteen the 11 year solar cycle and average global temperature as a "Climate Driver"

So you move the goal posts.

Provide some evidence that any of these interesting phenomena you mention has any effect (let alone a significant effect) on the global climate as the title of this thread demands.

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#1497919 - Today at 16:00 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Mega Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 03/02/2003
Posts: 7823
Loc: Maryborough, Wide Bay, QLD
Originally Posted By: marakai
All you have is a chart, which represents what exactly? .

In the words of a great Aussie politician....

Please Explain ?


lol

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