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#1471800 - 02/10/2018 01:51 Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate.
marakai Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ


Edited by marakai (02/10/2018 01:56)

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#1471815 - 02/10/2018 09:32 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
adon Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 19/08/2004
Posts: 5339
Loc: Not tellin!
Well of course it is! But not just TSI, the relationship between solar activity and Galactic cosmic rays and the effects of all combined are the main drivers. I do get a laugh out of the consensus mob ruling out solar activity due to the changes is TSI being relatively small. Yet a minuscule change in atmospheric content can cause destruction of a global scale.

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#1471838 - 02/10/2018 14:40 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
adon Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 19/08/2004
Posts: 5339
Loc: Not tellin!

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#1471884 - 02/10/2018 20:57 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Check out from the 3 minute mark to see what is not included as energy input from the sun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oepy1Ig7TdM

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#1473406 - 13/10/2018 18:15 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: adon]
Delta-T Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 21/01/2011
Posts: 203
Loc: Peachester
"Just found this"

https://mobile.wnd.com/2017/07/study-blows-greenhouse-theory-out-of-the-water/


From that link: "the assumption that greenhouse gases warm the atmosphere by trapping heat – is wrong."


Sorry, reading past that is just heading down a science-free, rabbit burrow.

And there are some serious flaws in this piece too.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oepy1Ig7TdM


Edited by Delta-T (13/10/2018 18:15)

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#1473408 - 13/10/2018 18:22 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
ozone doug Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 06/11/2006
Posts: 1928
Loc: Roma SW QLD Eye to the West...
suspicious observers that's a rabbit hole lol.
_________________________
Cheers Doug. 491 Doug/ uhf ch40 When severe weather
BOM Stormspotter G0388 Roma S W Queensland Formerly Redcliffe.

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#1473433 - 13/10/2018 21:14 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: ozone doug]
Delta-T Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 21/01/2011
Posts: 203
Loc: Peachester
Anything but CO2.

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#1473535 - 14/10/2018 16:23 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Nerd65 Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 30/01/2011
Posts: 446
Loc: Cranbrook, Townsville
Here's something more or less in the other direction: Hurricanes affecting the ionosphere.
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2018/10/12/study-hurricanes-affect-vlf-radio-signals-in-the-ionosphere/
_________________________
Linux is Star Trek; Windows is Star Wars.

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#1473639 - 14/10/2018 23:30 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
How about the ionosphere or further affecting the Hurricanes instead?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wU1qg8HceGI

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#1473640 - 14/10/2018 23:32 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Delta-T]
marakai Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: Delta-T
"Just found this"

https://mobile.wnd.com/2017/07/study-blows-greenhouse-theory-out-of-the-water/


From that link: "the assumption that greenhouse gases warm the atmosphere by trapping heat – is wrong."


Sorry, reading past that is just heading down a science-free, rabbit burrow.

And there are some serious flaws in this piece too.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oepy1Ig7TdM


Care to name some of the flaws in the second one Delta ?

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#1473649 - 15/10/2018 00:42 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Auroras, Lightning, Sprites, a shifting Magnetic field all indicate a vastly misunderstood related part of our climate. Nearly all of which is ignored in the current politicized era of "weather".

How much energy does it take to light up vast portions of the polar sky's each night ? And what happens to that portion of the energy we only see in the visible field of light ?


Some more info.

Quote:

1 The Observations

The influence of solar wind structures and related geomagnetic perturbations on the Earth's atmosphere is a subject of great interest in the context of space weather‐space climate. It pertains to different, nonlinearly related, physical processes such as solar wind driven electrodynamic changes, energetic particle precipitation, and atmospheric chemical changes (Gray et al., 2010; Lam & Tinsley, 2016; Mironova et al., 2015; Rycroft et al., 2012; Seppälä et al., 2014). The polar cap is an important laboratory for this research, since particle precipitation and solar wind‐magnetosphere coupling occur mostly at polar latitudes where the geomagnetic field is interconnected with the magnetic field carried out by the solar wind.

In this commentary, we would like to draw attention to some studies that have quantified signatures of solar wind properties at different altitudes in the atmosphere. Starting with the top of the atmosphere (~100–400 km), it has been found that the periodic structure of the solar wind and associated geomagnetic perturbations, related to the Sun's synodic rotation period and subharmonics (i.e., ~27, 13.5, 9, and 7 days), are clearly observed in ionosphere and upper atmosphere parameters. For example, Lei, Thayer, Forbes, Sutton, et al. (2008) and Thayer et al. (2008) detected ~9 and 7‐day oscillations, respectively, during 2005 and 2006, in the thermosphere neutral density from CHAMP satellite in a near polar orbit at ~400 km; these signals, basically due to the redistribution of the mass density by temperature changes, were associated with similar variations of the solar wind velocity and geomagnetic index Kp. Moreover, Lei, Thayer, Forbes, Wu, et al. (2008) found the same periodic oscillations in the 2005–2006 data of global mean total electron content and Tulasi Ram et al. (2010) observed the 9 and 13‐day periodicities in the electron density at 300 km during 2008. In the lower thermosphere (105–120 km), Jiang et al. (2014) found 9 and 13.5‐day oscillations of the temperature in response to recurrent geomagnetic activity, as observed in the Kp index, during the years 2002–2007; most importantly, they also found that the amplitude of the oscillations was larger at higher latitudes. The response to disturbed geomagnetic conditions in the high‐latitude thermosphere is currently believed to be driven by Joule heating and particle heating (Jiang et al., 2014; Lei, Thayer, Forbes, Sutton, et al., 2008; Lei, Thayer, Forbes, Wu, et al., 2008).
Snip

https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2018JA025411


Edited by marakai (15/10/2018 00:43)

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#1474508 - 22/10/2018 23:10 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Quote:
Imagine the world waking up one morning to discover that all compasses pointed south instead of north.

It’s not as bizarre as it sounds. Earth’s magnetic field has flipped – though not overnight – many times throughout the planet’s history. Its dipole magnetic field, like that of a bar magnet, remains about the same intensity for thousands to millions of years, but for incompletely known reasons it occasionally weakens and, presumably over a few thousand years, reverses direction.


Now, a new study by a team of scientists from Italy, France, Columbia University and the University of California, Berkeley, demonstrates that the last magnetic reversal 786,000 years ago actually happened very quickly, in less than 100 years – roughly a human lifetime.


http://news.berkeley.edu/2014/10/14/earths-magnetic-field-could-flip-within-a-human-lifetime/


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#1474605 - 24/10/2018 22:50 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Some interesting info on various solar effects such as UV flux correlation
with ice breakup in the Antarctic and space weather affecting Ozone.



Solar Changes and the Climate
By Joseph D’Aleo

http://www.icecap.us/images/uploads/Solar_Changes_and_the_Climate.pdf

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#1474992 - 01/11/2018 01:36 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
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Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Quote:
New Possible Mechanisms of Thunderstorm Clouds Physics

Introduction

It is known that a strong earthquake preparation process can be accompanied by various geophysical anomalies, which expose themselves several months, weeks or days prior to earthquakes. Such as: Changing of intensity of electro-telluric current in focal area; Perturbations of geomagnetic field in forms of irregular pulsations or regular short-period pulsations; Perturbations of atmospheric electric field;
Irregular changing of characteristic parameters of the lower ionosphere (plasma frequency, electron concentration, height of D layer, etc.);
Irregular perturbations reaching the upper ionosphere, namely F2-layer, for 2-3 days before the earthquake; Increased intensity of electromagnetic emissions in upper ionosphere in several hours or tenths of minutes before earthquake; Lighting before earthquake; Infrared radiation; Total Electron Content (TEC) anomalies; Changing of weather parameters.
Physical mechanisms of the mentioned phenomena by us are explained on the base of the classical electrodynamics[16].
As it was expected, in the origination of the above mentioned anomalies the defining role electromagnetic radiation plays.


https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1810/1810.12774.pdf

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#1475657 - 09/11/2018 19:35 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Seina Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 27/08/2003
Posts: 7770
Loc: Adelaide Hills

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#1475810 - 14/11/2018 17:50 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
retired weather man Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 01/07/2007
Posts: 5161
Loc: Wynnum
As the Solar Cycle is now at its lowest point, Eastern Australia weather has more or less followed the dry pattern over the past few years, with or without official El Nino's, in a similar fashion to past decades.

Normally as the Cycle turns upwards again which should start to happen later next year, chances of wetter weather over this part of the country should improve over the next few years peaking around 2022-3, again in a similar fashion to most previous cycles.

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#1475836 - 15/11/2018 00:54 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: retired weather man]
marakai Offline
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Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: retired weather man
As the Solar Cycle is now at its lowest point, Eastern Australia weather has more or less followed the dry pattern over the past few years, with or without official El Nino's, in a similar fashion to past decades.

Normally as the Cycle turns upwards again which should start to happen later next year, chances of wetter weather over this part of the country should improve over the next few years peaking around 2022-3, again in a similar fashion to most previous cycles.


Hi RWM, wondering what your thoughts might be about the effects of the continued weakening of the Earths Magnetic field that may or may not have on the planet during this current Solar minimum?

There is a noted effect upon global weather with Solar Minimums in the past, but never in recorded history do we have a coincidence of both the Sun and the Earth both with weakening magnetic fields along with a Solar Minimum and possible pole shifts on both at the same time as well and also along with the Milky Way galaxy shifting through the Universe as well, and all at the same time.
If you haven't seen it please do have a look https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIayxqk0Ees

As you already know, the Sun pumps in a lot more than just TSI and what is accounted for under the current status quo. No account is taken of all the other energy apparent but neglected under the current regime into the total un-closed system.

Check out the Lightning https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iXmyV6IYQs

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#1475900 - 16/11/2018 00:18 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Earthquakes?


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#1475963 - 17/11/2018 00:25 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
RESEARCH ARTICLE
New perspectives in the study of the Earth’s magnetic field and climate connection: The use of transfer entropy.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/file?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0207270&type=printable

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#1476059 - 18/11/2018 12:07 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
GringosRain Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 19/06/2007
Posts: 1770
Loc: Quorrobolong NSW
A mathematical method for predicting solar cycle activity has been discovered.
This lecture is really worth watching. The scientist/presenters accent is a little difficult at times, but that should not stop anyone watching the full hour lecture.

In short, the method has been able to accurately predict the historical solar cycles without observational inputs. They have also used the method to predict upcoming cycles and find that we are very close to the next grand solar minima. Starts in 2020 and runs through until about 2055. From what I can see compared to other minima it will be short and intense. From the end of this solar minima we will return to a period of warming as part of another 350-400 year cycle. She also discusses, super grand minma on longer scales.

The peak of this event will be 2028-2032.

This is very interesting and must see viewing for those genuinely interested in solar weather and its affects on our climate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2215&v=M_yqIj38UmY

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#1476280 - 20/11/2018 23:07 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: GringosRain]
marakai Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: GringosRain
A mathematical method for predicting solar cycle activity has been discovered.
This lecture is really worth watching. The scientist/presenters accent is a little difficult at times, but that should not stop anyone watching the full hour lecture.

In short, the method has been able to accurately predict the historical solar cycles without observational inputs. They have also used the method to predict upcoming cycles and find that we are very close to the next grand solar minima. Starts in 2020 and runs through until about 2055. From what I can see compared to other minima it will be short and intense. From the end of this solar minima we will return to a period of warming as part of another 350-400 year cycle. She also discusses, super grand minma on longer scales.

The peak of this event will be 2028-2032.

This is very interesting and must see viewing for those genuinely interested in solar weather and its affects on our climate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2215&v=M_yqIj38UmY


Lisa Upton quotes some of Zharkova's work in her Solar prediction videos as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBUXln7qdoo


Some insight into how the Electric Universe/Plasma cosmology works based on Jupter's Aurora and Birkeland currents.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pitwnMK-RxU

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#1476379 - 21/11/2018 19:09 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
A short version and interpretation of Gringo's Zharkova Video above:
https://youtu.be/SHGbri7gWWw

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#1476422 - 21/11/2018 23:32 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Seina Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 27/08/2003
Posts: 7770
Loc: Adelaide Hills
Does anyone know what EOFs are? I understand they are Empirical Orthogonal Functions unless otherwise indicated.

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#1476425 - 21/11/2018 23:57 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
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Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Analysis of data using time and spatial signals to break the data down to its basics along those two vectors.

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#1476564 - 22/11/2018 18:14 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Seina Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 27/08/2003
Posts: 7770
Loc: Adelaide Hills
Thank you for clarifying the perspective smile .

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#1477398 - 27/11/2018 23:45 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ

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#1478022 - 01/12/2018 16:31 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Seina Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 27/08/2003
Posts: 7770
Loc: Adelaide Hills
Originally Posted By: marakai

With the water molecule having an electric dipole moment, it would be understandable for a medium such as ocean water.

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#1478063 - 02/12/2018 00:04 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
It also works with water vapour as well. The Earths magnetic poles exchange energy back and forth with the Suns.


Edited by marakai (02/12/2018 00:06)

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#1478141 - 02/12/2018 15:29 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Seina Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 27/08/2003
Posts: 7770
Loc: Adelaide Hills
Water vapour is a phase of the water molecule [H2O]. The experiment linked was for the liquid phase smile .


Edited by Seira (02/12/2018 15:30)

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#1478150 - 02/12/2018 16:35 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
amphetamarine Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 18/03/2004
Posts: 363
Loc: Cairns
We are travelling through time and space. On our very own spaceship...Earth. Ready made for yas. Look after it.

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#1478773 - 08/12/2018 02:40 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Solar forcing of ENSO ?

Quote:
Key Points:
• A solar cycle’s fiducial clock does not run from the canonical min or max, instead resetting when old cycle flux is gone.

• Many cycles indicate that ENSO is related to the phase of this clock, through driven changes in the cosmic ray flux.

• Cycle 24 is projected to end in 2020. We anticipate a strong El Ni ̃no in 2019, and a strong La Ni ̃na in 2020. If so, cosmic rays would appear to have greater influ-ence on ENSO than solar irradiance

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1812.02692.pdf

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#1479033 - 09/12/2018 22:36 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
A challenge to just about all we think we know.
THE SUN IS NOT GASEOUS.


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#1479415 - 11/12/2018 21:05 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Seina Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 27/08/2003
Posts: 7770
Loc: Adelaide Hills
I hope we learn more about the sun...and that...that learning is not conditional.

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#1483264 - 30/12/2018 22:55 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Rapid intensification of tropical cyclones in the context of the solar wind-magnetosphere-ionosphere-atmosphere coupling

"Abstract

Rapid intensification of tropical storms is examined in the context of solar wind coupling to the magnetosphere-ionosphere-atmosphere system. Tropical cyclone “best tracks” in the southern and northern hemispheres are used in the superposed epoch analysis of time series of solar wind parameters. The results indicate that rapid intensification of tropical storms tends to follow arrivals of high-speed solar wind from coronal holes or coronal mass ejections. The ensuing auroral and polar cap activity including ionospheric currents and ionospheric convection generates atmospheric gravity waves that propagate from the high-latitude lower thermosphere both upward and downward."

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1364682618305765

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#1483294 - 31/12/2018 08:50 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
retired weather man Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 01/07/2007
Posts: 5161
Loc: Wynnum
As 2018 closes with below average rain locally, I repeat my call that with the solar cycle at its bottom now, this rain pattern is consistent with such an occurrence.

The solar cycle should start to pick up again later in 2019 and with it increased rainfall, such rain peaking around 2022-24 The oceanic patterns will as usual follow.

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#1483483 - 01/01/2019 02:07 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: retired weather man]
marakai Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: retired weather man
As 2018 closes with below average rain locally, I repeat my call that with the solar cycle at its bottom now, this rain pattern is consistent with such an occurrence.

The solar cycle should start to pick up again later in 2019 and with it increased rainfall, such rain peaking around 2022-24 The oceanic patterns will as usual follow.


What if the Solar cycle go's quiet for an extended period though as some expect ?
Be interesting to see if this current low off of Cape York spark's up in response to the expected Solar stream of energy from the recent Coronal hole stream expected over the next few days.
Time will tell I guess...

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#1483621 - 01/01/2019 21:15 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
DDstorm Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 13/05/2010
Posts: 388
Loc: Tallai, QLD
Hey guys, only just found this thread had started from reading another , top stuff and great reading. Been an S.O. watcher for some time, very interesting stuff space weather.
Though I may not have much input, I really wish the Mods could some how add a thumbs up button to acknowledge readers support for the content you guys research and provide. Well done.
DD
_________________________
Just here for the weather

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#1485354 - 14/01/2019 05:26 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: DDstorm]
marakai Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: DDstorm
Hey guys, only just found this thread had started from reading another , top stuff and great reading. Been an S.O. watcher for some time, very interesting stuff space weather.
Though I may not have much input, I really wish the Mods could some how add a thumbs up button to acknowledge readers support for the content you guys research and provide. Well done.
DD


Thank's DD... I'm also a long time S.O watcher as well..signed up in 2012 as a paid member after lurking for a while.
Nasa and China over the last 5 years alone have taken much of this stuff on board to the point of launching satellites to study/research it all... SWARM Mission being but one example....https://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Observing_the_Earth/Swarm

Nearly everyone I know is unaware of all of this stuff let alone a Carrington event type scenario... Sheesh even Carrington comes up as a typo here... go figure ?

I don't think people are aware of what a combined weakening of Earth's Magnetic field combined with shifting at the same time that the Sun is undergoing the same changes means for us all... Nor the possible consequences.

The only constant seem's to be a total disregard for it all.

Current Science press releases seem intent on measuring the equivalence of Gnat foreskins of temperature anomaly's to do with weather compared to arbitrary 30 year periods...
All the while ignoring the very real and obvious effects of Space weather on Earthquakes and Cyclone/Hurricane's already acknowledged by their own launch of satellites to study such phenomena.

Recent discovery's of Flux transfer events and the realization that the earth and the sun are connected inextricably via magnetic (electric) energy fields which flux and wane between the two and possibly between all planets within our solar system are yet another aspect of the Earths Climate not only poorly understood..... But totally misunderstood....

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#1489580 - 08/02/2019 13:20 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ

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#1489588 - 08/02/2019 14:06 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Petros Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 30/12/2002
Posts: 8071
Loc: Maffra, Central Gippsland, Vi...
Interesting concept, presumably DC currents linking celestial bodies via plasma "wires", the currents then creating magnetic fields which can influence planets with their own magnetic fields.

To me these plasma current paths must also have tangible "tension", or else could not push/pull against cosmic objects under the rule of every force must have an equal and opposite force.

However, if true, twists in these plasma conductors, would presumably influence the earths magnetic pole orientation. The movement of which, although not widely reported is as I understand it, causing concern due to no one being able to explain the present excursion of the magnetic pole drift presently experienced. Nor predict where it will be in coming years. Thank God for GPS.

If I'm correct, a standard magnetic compass is needing correction far more frequently than typical of past centuries when it slowly "rocked" around a far restricted physical region at the poles. I understand its presently tracked off left field and well outside the previous recorded latitude extent.

Interesting concept Marakai.

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#1490776 - 18/02/2019 00:44 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Earths Geocorona reaches far out into space even encompassing the orbit of the moon, IE Ions and molecules from earth stretch way out into the exoosphere.

https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1029/2018JA026136

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#1490786 - 18/02/2019 08:10 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
cold@28 Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 07/02/2011
Posts: 3036
Loc: Chillagoe
When I first heard the electric theory it made way more sense than what I was taught at school.

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#1497179 - 06/04/2019 00:45 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
So much that is still unknown coming from the Sun.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/04/190404114437.htm
Quote:
When Simone Di Matteo first saw the patterns in his data, it seemed too good to be true. "It's too perfect!" Di Matteo, a space physics Ph.D. student at the University of L'Aquila in Italy, recalled thinking. "It can't be real." And it wasn't, he'd soon find out.

Di Matteo was looking for long trains of massive blobs -- like a lava lamp's otherworldly bubbles, but anywhere from 50 to 500 times the size of Earth -- in the solar wind. The solar wind, whose origins aren't yet fully understood, is the stream of charged particles that blows constantly from the Sun. Earth's magnetic field, called the magnetosphere, shields our planet from the brunt of its radiation. But when giant blobs of solar wind collide with the magnetosphere, they can trigger disturbances there that interfere with satellites and everyday communications signals.

In his search, Di Matteo was re-examining archival data from the two German-NASA Helios spacecraft, which launched in 1974 and 1976 to study the Sun. But this was 45-year-old data he'd never worked with before. The flawless, wave-like patterns he initially found hinted that something was leading him astray.



Let most people know that the Sun bombards the Earth every second of every day with Winds full of Plasma on average of 400Km per second and they would not have a clue about it.

Ask them what a Coronal whole is, and the answer would be likewise.

Science is just starting to understand what effects outside of Sun Spots effect/affect Earths weather.

There is already solid evidence that the Sun has a direct Affect upon Earthquakes on the surface of our planet. NASA has recently launched Satellites to investigate the sun's effects on Earth with the Parker Solar probe launched last August, putting us closer to the Sun than ever before.

Quote:
Dec. 16, 2008: NASA's five THEMIS spacecraft have discovered a breach in Earth's magnetic field ten times larger than anything previously thought to exist. Solar wind can flow in through the opening to "load up" the magnetosphere for powerful geomagnetic storms. But the breach itself is not the biggest surprise. Researchers are even more amazed at the strange and unexpected way it forms, overturning long-held ideas of space physics.

"At first I didn't believe it," says THEMIS project scientist David Sibeck of the Goddard Space Flight Center. "This finding fundamentally alters our understanding of the solar wind-magnetosphere interaction."


https://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2008/16dec_giantbreach

Even the great search for Dark Matter is looking like being a dud despite billions spent and decades of searching. Despite all such efforts there is absolutely Zero Evidence that such a ...Substance or Non substance actually exists.

Now give that a bit of thought for a while, despite decades of research and funding that have gone into the theoretical "Belief" that such a thing must exist. Yet despite all the multitudes of research and the Billions spent looking for it by many thousands of Qualified people all funded by every day familiy's, the Creme de La Creme of Scientific expertise are still unable to either identify or quantify Dark Matter in any way shape or form.

A recent study I saw showed that Indeed Dark matter is not needed to inform us of the way the Universe works at all.

I know that this is a "Fringe" thread here on WZ and not only not well read but when done so is also mostly ignored as well.

For anyone that is reading, instead of just taking my point of view on things about Solar influences outside of Sunspots, go do some real research yourselves and see how the Sun and Earths magnetic fields can influence the Weather on Earth.

It's not that hard to find information and you can make up your own mind on it all.

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#1497182 - 06/04/2019 07:50 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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Registered: 01/05/2014
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What the sun is up to is of far greater importance than what earth is up to. It's interesting how things have kind of gone full circle with a return to an earth centric viewpoint currently in vogue. But the sun can cause major disruption and of course will ultimately destroy life on earth. The 1859 Carrington CME was a foretaste of disruption. Occuring today, it would have a major impact on an increasingly tech reliant civilisation. With a huge CME hitting us, despite shielding of vital grid components and transformer replacement, the electrical grid could collapse for weeks if not longer. Think of the chaos. Those with some bushcrafts and assorted survival skills will be better at handling it, but most will be adrift in a sea of helplessness. It's not a matter of if. It's a matter of when. And of course further down the track the sun will run out of fuel. It will expand before dying and fry earth to a crisp.
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#1497189 - 06/04/2019 10:10 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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And of course there is spaceweather that eminates from beyond our solar system. Your garden variety cosmic radiation and extreme bursts. Gamma bursts are hypothesied by some to have been a factor in past earth extinction events. Apart from the dangerous increased U.V caused by gamna ozone layer depletion directly impacting life on the land and in shallow water, a dirty smog formed by gamma rays creating nitrous dioxide would have blocked sunlight and led to rapid ice build up tipping into an iceage
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#1497246 - 07/04/2019 20:18 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
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Knot, the most that people generally know about the effects of space weather is Sun spot counts which in themselves are just a small portion of what effects the Earth in total when it comes to effects on our weather.
The Sun is able to change things in a geological instant on Earth, yet is still ignored as a computational constant by all weather models based only upon TSR input.

One has to wonder why despite all these new Satellites being sent off to investigate such phenomena that we hear so little about known effects overall ?

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#1497260 - 08/04/2019 09:03 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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The simple answer is inputers have to put food on the table and pay mortgages. In other words, inputing fruit that upsets the output apple cart might get you blackballed, fired, demoted or reassigned. If your lively hood depends on not rocking the boat, you might, out of self preservation, deliberately avoid material that will get the train going in the opposite direction to the gravy. Hmm. Now where is my tinfoil hat he he he
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#1497277 - 08/04/2019 20:47 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Seina Offline
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Registered: 27/08/2003
Posts: 7770
Loc: Adelaide Hills
Originally Posted By: marakai
Knot, the most that people generally know about the effects of space weather is Sun spot counts which in themselves are just a small portion of what effects the Earth in total when it comes to effects on our weather.
The Sun is able to change things in a geological instant on Earth, yet is still ignored as a computational constant by all weather models based only upon TSR input.

I posted some information and a link to a paper here about the effects of the astronomical Milankovitch Cycles on climate variability in the Miocene Epoch, and in particular their association to a warming optimum and cooling period since that optimum (during the Miocene).

If the said information is of no interest or fascination from an objective / scientific point-of-view, within this thread…I will discontinue this dialogue!

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#1497278 - 08/04/2019 21:27 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Seina]
Knot Offline
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Link seems dead Siera in that post. At least for me it is. Get 'this site (doi.wiley.com) can't be reached' message.
Off topic, but here is a link with info about possible first pics of a black hole event horizon to be revealed this week.
https://weather.com/news/news/2019-04-07-first-photos-black-hole-event-horizon
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#1497279 - 08/04/2019 21:51 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Knot]
Seina Offline
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Registered: 27/08/2003
Posts: 7770
Loc: Adelaide Hills
Originally Posted By: Knot
Link seems dead Siera in that post. At least for me it is. Get 'this site (doi.wiley.com) can't be reached' message.

In that case:

https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/2013PA002538

smile


Edited by Seira (08/04/2019 21:52)

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#1497280 - 08/04/2019 22:27 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Seina]
Knot Offline
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That works. Muchos gracias
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#1497283 - 09/04/2019 00:05 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Knot]
marakai Offline
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Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: Knot
The simple answer is inputers have to put food on the table and pay mortgages. In other words, inputing fruit that upsets the output apple cart might get you blackballed, fired, demoted or reassigned. If your lively hood depends on not rocking the boat, you might, out of self preservation, deliberately avoid material that will get the train going in the opposite direction to the gravy. Hmm. Now where is my tinfoil hat he he he


I get that issue totally, but the absolute fact that so much is now being spent putting all these new instruments into space in the immediate term while so little focus is optically present in the MSM is quite curious to me to say the least.
You might want to try lead for that hat M8, I heard that it works a bit better and that Aluminum was a psyops put out in the 70's as Aluminum actually allowed for better transmission of brainwaves to the international collectors (/S). smile

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#1497284 - 09/04/2019 01:16 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Seina]
marakai Offline
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Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: Seira
Originally Posted By: Knot
Link seems dead Siera in that post. At least for me it is. Get 'this site (doi.wiley.com) can't be reached' message.

In that case:

https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/2013PA002538

smile


Thanks for the refresh on the link Seira. I don't disagree with the long term cycles our planet passes through due to such acknowledged cycles such as Milankovitch ETC as they are clearly obvious and empirically evidenced via Orbital cycles along with the precession of the equinoxes which have an evident cyclic effect on the Earths Climate as well.

The paper you reference covers a vast amount of timespan and also includes ocean circulation which in and of itself is hazed with the mist's of time, although just with the Miocene alone leads me to think of the changes that occurred in our part of the World here in just Australia alone with the current arrangement of South East Asia and the oceanic currents that now flow through the passages between the Australian continent and Indonesia, PNG, the Torres Straight as a result of Continental movement ocean channels opening/closing and how all that has affected/effected changes of the climate all over and delivered us the the well known current climatic effects of the MJO as it condenses over the Indonesian archipelago and moves West. http://nci.org.au/research/madden-julian-oscillation-maritime-continent/

I would add though that all of the above are also a part of solar influences, the effects above are the result of millions of years of tectonic and gradual influences and in isolation are unable alone to explain the near instantaneous changes seen just 13-14,000 years ago nor any of the other similar changes in evidence from the geological records. Such changes are not the result of gradual tectonic shifts or the result of oceanic currents as a result.
There are clear cut influences outside of the expected gradual and explicable changes one would expect from gradual shift in orbit or precession as one would expect.

The info in your link associates geologic ages millions of years apart , the Miocene and Cenozoic for example and seeks to link them somehow with an association of cooling or warming yet neglects that these two ages are 40 million years apart at the very least and then seek to link it all to Astronomic cycles, Oceanic currents and then somehow fluctuations in the climate cycle ????
Quote:

1] We present high‐resolution (2–3 kyr) benthic foraminiferal stable isotopes in a continuous, well‐preserved sedimentary archive from the West Pacific Ocean (Ocean Drilling Program Site 1146), which track climate evolution in unprecedented resolution over the period 12.9 to 8.4 Ma. We developed an astronomically tuned chronology over this interval and integrated our new records with published isotope data from the same location to reconstruct long‐term climate and ocean circulation development between 16.4 and 8.4 Ma. This extended perspective reveals that the long eccentricity (400 kyr) cycle is prominently encoded in the δ13C signal over most of the record, reflecting long‐term fluctuations in the carbon cycle. The δ18O signal closely follows variations in short eccentricity (100 kyr) and obliquity (41 kyr). In particular, the obliquity cycle is prominent from ~14.6 to 14.1 Ma and from ~9.8 to 9.2 Ma, when high‐amplitude variability in obliquity is congruent with low‐amplitude variability in short eccentricity. The δ18O curve is additionally characterized by a series of incremental steps at ~14.6, 13.9, 13.1, 10.6, 9.9, and 9.0 Ma, which we attribute to progressive deep water cooling and/or glaciation episodes following the end of the Miocene climatic optimum. On the basis of δ18O amplitudes, we find that climate variability decreased substantially after ~13 Ma, except for a remarkable warming episode at ~10.8–10.7 Ma at peak insolation during eccentricity maxima (100 and 400 kyr). This transient warming, associated with a massive negative carbon isotope shift, is reminiscent of intense global warming events at eccentricity maxima during the Miocene climatic optimum.


https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/2013PA002538

They in fact never mention the Cenozoic again except as a reference for any of their recent..... "Discovery's"

I'm not judging You Seira, just the paper that you linked, I appreciate your input and participation in the overall discussion, the more the merrier and hopefully the more that become involved the more balanced the discussion becomes.

I try and endeavour to post factual and empirical evidence on this thread. If you find something wrong or incorrect, I expect to be corrected.. Please provide factual proof of any incorrect information.

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#1497356 - 10/04/2019 08:43 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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Registered: 01/05/2014
Posts: 2842
Effects of solar wind reach deeper into the stratosohere of Jupiter's atmosphere than previously believed. The money quote ""What is startling about the results is that we were able to associate for the first time the variations in solar wind and the response in the stratosphere—and that the response to these variations is so quick for such a large area," said JPL's Glenn Orton, co-author and part of the observing".

Wouldn't be suprised to seeing the accepted knowledge about how far down the solar wind messes with Earth's atmosphere being upended eventually.
https://m.phys.org/news/2019-04-jupiter-atmosphere-solar.html
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#1497368 - 10/04/2019 17:32 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
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You would think that the effects on Earth are a lot stronger given our closeness to the Sun and our size compared to Jupiter as well.
Only a matter of time until these real Solar effects are recognized upon the actual weather of our planet.

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#1497371 - 10/04/2019 19:06 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Knot]
Flowin Offline
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Registered: 15/10/2017
Posts: 966
Loc: Pinjarra Hills, Qld
Originally Posted By: Knot
The simple answer is inputers have to put food on the table and pay mortgages. In other words, inputing fruit that upsets the output apple cart might get you blackballed, fired, demoted or reassigned. If your lively hood depends on not rocking the boat, you might, out of self preservation, deliberately avoid material that will get the train going in the opposite direction to the gravy. Hmm. Now where is my tinfoil hat he he he

The converse to that is people with a passion for the job with important roles to forecast weather for the benefit of the greater public good. It takes courage to forecast, and even more courage to change practices in forecasting. Courage grows when people have a go at improving with acceptance that the failures are possible.
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#1497384 - 10/04/2019 21:25 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Flowin]
marakai Offline
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Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: Flowin
Originally Posted By: Knot
The simple answer is inputers have to put food on the table and pay mortgages. In other words, inputing fruit that upsets the output apple cart might get you blackballed, fired, demoted or reassigned. If your lively hood depends on not rocking the boat, you might, out of self preservation, deliberately avoid material that will get the train going in the opposite direction to the gravy. Hmm. Now where is my tinfoil hat he he he

The converse to that is people with a passion for the job with important roles to forecast weather for the benefit of the greater public good. It takes courage to forecast, and even more courage to change practices in forecasting. Courage grows when people have a go at improving with acceptance that the failures are possible.


Sorry Flowin but that is a bit of a nonsensical post. Forecasts come with the applicable job description and are either accurate or not. Passion should not come into it if it is a Science based Job, it should just be about the Science.

Passion is an emotive that should not be a part of Science, like wise the greater public good.

Science is based upon facts and evidence,not passion or subjective opinions, Scientist's should just report the results, not their feelings or opinions.

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#1497386 - 10/04/2019 21:49 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Flowin Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 15/10/2017
Posts: 966
Loc: Pinjarra Hills, Qld
Originally Posted By: marakai
Originally Posted By: Flowin
Originally Posted By: Knot
The simple answer is inputers have to put food on the table and pay mortgages. In other words, inputing fruit that upsets the output apple cart might get you blackballed, fired, demoted or reassigned. If your lively hood depends on not rocking the boat, you might, out of self preservation, deliberately avoid material that will get the train going in the opposite direction to the gravy. Hmm. Now where is my tinfoil hat he he he

The converse to that is people with a passion for the job with important roles to forecast weather for the benefit of the greater public good. It takes courage to forecast, and even more courage to change practices in forecasting. Courage grows when people have a go at improving with acceptance that the failures are possible.


Sorry Flowin but that is a bit of a nonsensical post. Forecasts come with the applicable job description and are either accurate or not. Passion should not come into it if it is a Science based Job, it should just be about the Science.

Passion is an emotive that should not be a part of Science, like wise the greater public good.

Science is based upon facts and evidence,not passion or subjective opinions, Scientist's should just report the results, not their feelings or opinions.

I understand that perspective Marakai. And may I use this opportunity to describe the reverse perspective of my previous post.
I agree with proposition that science should be based on facts and evidence. Occasionally such facts and evidence in science will indicate flaws with past or current science. Pragmatically it takes courage to challenge such past or current science. Courage should not be inhibited by roles and job descriptions and "upper management perspectives" but unfortunately such pressures can dominate, and more than pure science courage is needed for proactive improvement. Passion for the subject matter and objective understanding of the role does then come into play to properly develop science.


Edited by Flowin (10/04/2019 21:52)
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#1497390 - 11/04/2019 06:46 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Flowin Offline
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Registered: 15/10/2017
Posts: 966
Loc: Pinjarra Hills, Qld
Originally Posted By: marakai
Science is based upon facts and evidence

Sometimes also science develops from intelligent theories evolving from facts and evidence. While facts and evidence are needed for new theories, it can in some cases take a long time for the evidence to prove the theory.
For example the theories underlying the concepts of black holes started around 100 years ago. The observations to prove black holes took a long time. It is only today in 2019 that science has actually been able to capture an image of a black hole.
https://www.space.com/black-hole-event-horizon-images-einstein.html


Edited by Flowin (11/04/2019 06:48)

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#1497391 - 11/04/2019 07:05 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Flowin]
Knot Offline
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Amazing confirmationary observation confirming a prediction of general relativity relating to a gravitational field being so strong that light itself would be unable to escape.
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#1497392 - 11/04/2019 07:17 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Flowin]
Knot Offline
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Registered: 01/05/2014
Posts: 2842
Amazing photo confirmation of a prediction of general relativity relating to gravitational fields being so strong that light itself would be unable to escape.
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#1497409 - 11/04/2019 14:32 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Knot]
ozthunder Offline
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Registered: 23/09/2001
Posts: 3346
Loc: Mt Warrigal, NSW, Australia
Originally Posted By: Knot
Amazing confirmationary observation confirming a prediction of general relativity relating to a gravitational field being so strong that light itself would be unable to escape.


Yes I know, I thought the same thing at first, but the hole is still black.

As National geographic say: "More precisely, the hoped-for portrait is of a mysterious region that surrounds the black hole".

We are seeing the event horizon, not the back hole.
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#1497413 - 11/04/2019 15:09 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: ozthunder]
Knot Offline
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Registered: 01/05/2014
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Originally Posted By: ozthunder


We are seeing the event horizon, not the back hole.




Yep, nothing to see of the hole itself due to the immense gravity.
Such immense size. The hole is 40 billion km across. Pics of the hole in the middle of our galaxy are slated to be done next. Like a drain with water down the plug hole. What an interesting place it is beyond our small blue planet


Edited by Knot (11/04/2019 15:15)
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#1497414 - 11/04/2019 15:27 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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For perspective, our solar system out to the heliosohere boundary is thought to be 34 billion km in diameter.
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#1497454 - 12/04/2019 18:03 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
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Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Great discussion on Black Holes and Space in general. Brian cox on Joe Rogan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wieRZoJSVtw


Edited by marakai (12/04/2019 18:04)

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#1497455 - 12/04/2019 19:23 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Knot]
marakai Offline
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Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: Knot
Amazing photo confirmation of a prediction of general relativity relating to gravitational fields being so strong that light itself would be unable to escape.


Not sold on it all yet myself, a blurry image that needed an algorithm to produce showing a phenomenon that is still theoretical countless light years away, Colour me skeptical still for now.

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#1497456 - 12/04/2019 19:25 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: ozthunder]
Eigerwand Offline
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Registered: 28/05/2012
Posts: 526


Originally Posted By: ozthunder
Originally Posted By: Knot
Amazing confirmationary observation confirming a prediction of general relativity relating to a gravitational field being so strong that light itself would be unable to escape.


Yes I know, I thought the same thing at first, but the hole is still black.

As National geographic say: "More precisely, the hoped-for portrait is of a mysterious region that surrounds the black hole".

We are seeing the event horizon, not the back hole.



The event horizon forming a roughly circular shape, analogous to a halo. So what does one see if one bisects that halo? A dark void. Almost as though there was some kind of black hole inside the halo..

Like being in a cave and opening your eyes, as an organism primed to pick up light the ‘nothing’ is experientially still a something.
To put another way, given what we know about physics, assuming you wanted to return, would you cross that barrier of light in the innermost ring of that event horizon? No, that doesn’t LOOK like it would be a wise decision.

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#1497459 - 12/04/2019 19:39 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Eigerwand]
marakai Offline
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Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: Eigerwand


Originally Posted By: ozthunder
Originally Posted By: Knot
Amazing confirmationary observation confirming a prediction of general relativity relating to a gravitational field being so strong that light itself would be unable to escape.


Yes I know, I thought the same thing at first, but the hole is still black.

As National geographic say: "More precisely, the hoped-for portrait is of a mysterious region that surrounds the black hole".

We are seeing the event horizon, not the back hole.



The event horizon forming a roughly circular shape, analogous to a halo. So what does one see if one bisects that halo? A dark void. Almost as though there was some kind of black hole inside the halo..

Like being in a cave and opening your eyes, as an organism primed to pick up light the ‘nothing’ is experientially still a something.
To put another way, given what we know about physics, assuming you wanted to return, would you cross that barrier of light in the innermost ring of that event horizon? No, that doesn’t LOOK like it would be a wise decision.


I don't think you would ever get a choice to be honest Eigerwand, just being able to physically observe such a phenomena would be way too close for comfort let alone having any choices about what happens next.

truth be told we as a species don't even know enough about the Oceans on this planet let alone anything happening countless millions of KM away in space.

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#1497460 - 12/04/2019 19:39 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Seina Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 27/08/2003
Posts: 7770
Loc: Adelaide Hills
Originally Posted By: marakai
https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/2013PA002538

They in fact never mention the Cenozoic again except as a reference for any of their recent..... "Discovery's"

I'm not judging You Seira, just the paper that you linked, I appreciate your input and participation in the overall discussion, the more the merrier and hopefully the more that become involved the more balanced the discussion becomes.

I try and endeavour to post factual and empirical evidence on this thread. If you find something wrong or incorrect, I expect to be corrected.. Please provide factual proof of any incorrect information.


One will need to detail more explicitly, exactly what is thought to be the Cenozoic and Miocene to proceed with the conversation more thoroughly smile .

It would be worth one's while to keep in mind that an expression of opinion [without references or relevant researchable materials] is not sufficient for objectivity.


Edited by Seira (12/04/2019 19:48)

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#1497463 - 12/04/2019 20:23 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Seina]
marakai Offline
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Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: Seira
Originally Posted By: marakai
https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/2013PA002538

They in fact never mention the Cenozoic again except as a reference for any of their recent..... "Discovery's"

I'm not judging You Seira, just the paper that you linked, I appreciate your input and participation in the overall discussion, the more the merrier and hopefully the more that become involved the more balanced the discussion becomes.

I try and endeavour to post factual and empirical evidence on this thread. If you find something wrong or incorrect, I expect to be corrected.. Please provide factual proof of any incorrect information.


One will need to detail more explicitly, exactly what is thought to be the Cenozoic and Miocene to proceed with the conversation more thoroughly smile .

It would be worth one's while to keep in mind that an expression of opinion [without references or relevant researchable materials] is not sufficient for objectivity.


Well the Cenozoic began roughly 65 Million years ago, generally understood to begin at the KT boundary give or take a million years or so. Just after the end of the Cretaceous or the end of the Dinosaur age.

The Miocene is generally understood to cover from roughly 25 million years ago up until 5 million years before present.

These are arbitrary delineation's between geological ages based upon realized distinctions in geological differences. :IE Geoligist's can point to a phaze change in the Earths Crust.

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#1497464 - 12/04/2019 20:26 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Seina Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 27/08/2003
Posts: 7770
Loc: Adelaide Hills
Originally Posted By: marakai
Well the Cenozoic began roughly 65 Million years ago, generally understood to begin at the KT boundary give or take a million years or so. Just after the end of the Cretaceous or the end of the Dinosaur age.

The Miocene is generally understood to cover from roughly 25 million years ago up until 5 million years before present.

That's right -- so the Miocene is within the Cenozoic, agreed?

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#1497466 - 12/04/2019 20:38 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Eigerwand Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 28/05/2012
Posts: 526
Originally Posted By: marakai
Originally Posted By: Eigerwand


Originally Posted By: ozthunder
Originally Posted By: Knot
Amazing confirmationary observation confirming a prediction of general relativity relating to a gravitational field being so strong that light itself would be unable to escape.


Yes I know, I thought the same thing at first, but the hole is still black.

As National geographic say: "More precisely, the hoped-for portrait is of a mysterious region that surrounds the black hole".

We are seeing the event horizon, not the back hole.



The event horizon forming a roughly circular shape, analogous to a halo. So what does one see if one bisects that halo? A dark void. Almost as though there was some kind of black hole inside the halo..

Like being in a cave and opening your eyes, as an organism primed to pick up light the ‘nothing’ is experientially still a something.
To put another way, given what we know about physics, assuming you wanted to return, would you cross that barrier of light in the innermost ring of that event horizon? No, that doesn’t LOOK like it would be a wise decision.


I don't think you would ever get a choice to be honest Eigerwand, just being able to physically observe such a phenomena would be way too close for comfort let alone having any choices about what happens next.

truth be told we as a species don't even know enough about the Oceans on this planet let alone anything happening countless millions of KM away in space.


You don’t need to get close, you have a photograph. If someone showed you said photograph and said; “We want you to fly from this side of the light to the other side of the light and bisect the dark centre”. Based on what you know about physics that doesn’t LOOK like it would be a good idea. My point is that ‘nothingness’ can still convey something to a conscious mind. If that nothingness is represented via visual absence of light, combined with your knowledge of extreme gravity you perceive it as a something. As such you ‘see’, despite the absence of light something your mind can form ideas about. Which is essentially all ‘seeing’ really is.

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#1497467 - 12/04/2019 20:38 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Seina]
marakai Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: Seira
Originally Posted By: marakai
Well the Cenozoic began roughly 65 Million years ago, generally understood to begin at the KT boundary give or take a million years or so. Just after the end of the Cretaceous or the end of the Dinosaur age.

The Miocene is generally understood to cover from roughly 25 million years ago up until 5 million years before present.

That's right -- so the Miocene is within the Cenozoic, agreed?


Yes absolutely correct, the point being?

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#1497469 - 12/04/2019 20:58 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Seina Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 27/08/2003
Posts: 7770
Loc: Adelaide Hills
Originally Posted By: marakai
Originally Posted By: Seira
Originally Posted By: marakai
Well the Cenozoic began roughly 65 Million years ago, generally understood to begin at the KT boundary give or take a million years or so. Just after the end of the Cretaceous or the end of the Dinosaur age.

The Miocene is generally understood to cover from roughly 25 million years ago up until 5 million years before present.

That's right -- so the Miocene is within the Cenozoic, agreed?


Yes absolutely correct, the point being?

It would be superfluous now – for clarity, what did you mean by this:

Originally Posted By: marakai
The info in your link associates geologic ages millions of years apart , the Miocene and Cenozoic for example and seeks to link them somehow with an association of cooling or warming yet neglects that these two ages are 40 million years apart at the very least and then seek to link it all to Astronomic cycles, Oceanic currents and then somehow fluctuations in the climate cycle ????


From post #1497284 - 09/04/2019 01:16.


Edited by Seira (12/04/2019 21:06)

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#1497470 - 12/04/2019 21:55 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
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Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Seira
You state abrupt/ climate variability way back in the Miocene and previous and then even since including the Holocene is recognized (US) smile

Not sure that I can argue that point at all, nor that I would. I could pump out numerous empirical records that support such findings as well though.
How well such actual empirical evidence would play out here is pretty predictable though, ancient history, not relevant in the current era ETC, the current models for the near future.

Despite all that I think that the past, as it is recognized is a greater indication of the future than all the "Models" that are the current arbiters of the future. What has gone before time and again is a much better forecast than a bunch of biased self focused forecasts pumped out by rote learning grad students trapped on the treadmill of university learning, all dependent upon getting a pass from their Biased Hierarchy.

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#1497474 - 12/04/2019 23:52 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
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Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
I've made mine Seira, if you have a point as obtuse as it may be please provide it.


Quote:
#1497466 - Today at 19:38 .You don’t need to get close, you have a photograph. If someone showed you said photograph and said; “We want you to fly from this side of the light to the other side of the light and bisect the dark centre”. Based on what you know about physics that doesn’t LOOK like it would be a good idea. My point is that ‘nothingness’ can still convey something to a conscious mind. If that nothingness is represented via visual absence of light, combined with your knowledge of extreme gravity you perceive it as a something. As such you ‘see’, despite the absence of light something your mind can form ideas about. Which is essentially all ‘seeing’ really is.



Yeah I get what you mean, but it is all subjective, all you have is a photo based on an algorithm and a bunch of protagonist's promoting it as absolute proof, while in reality it is anything but. All it is, is a photo based upon an algorithm and nothing more.
I Don't know why I keep having the same discussion time after time with all this.

Actual Science is something that is Repetitive, IE Someone else can take the published results by another and reproduce the findings of the claims made by someone else, based upon the data provided by those making the original claims.
Why is it so hard for you to understand how actual Science works ?

You can be as subjective as you like, that does not mean that what you "Believe" is an actual repetitive and Predictable outcome based upon an repetitive and predictive outcome.

One is Science and one is opinion or subjective thought.

Reality is the difference between the two.

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#1497489 - 13/04/2019 20:16 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Seina Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 27/08/2003
Posts: 7770
Loc: Adelaide Hills
Originally Posted By: marakai
I've made mine Seira, if you have a point as obtuse as it may be please provide it.

My point was probably contextually too slow for the impression I get of the pace of this thread: I read your critique of the linked paper I provided. I am not trying to catch you out, however I suggest clarity particularly in relation to the Eras, Periods and Epochs in Earth's apparent geological past.

My point was that because the Miocene is within the Cenozoic, there is no gap between the two. This would be relevant if one wished to be serious and specific about the geological time scale...however I am not that fussed if it was an oversight smile .


Edited by Seira (13/04/2019 20:18)

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#1497492 - 14/04/2019 03:01 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Seina]
marakai Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: Seira
Originally Posted By: marakai
I've made mine Seira, if you have a point as obtuse as it may be please provide it.

My point was probably contextually too slow for the impression I get of the pace of this thread: I read your critique of the linked paper I provided. I am not trying to catch you out, however I suggest clarity particularly in relation to the Eras, Periods and Epochs in Earth's apparent geological past.

My point was that because the Miocene is within the Cenozoic, there is no gap between the two. This would be relevant if one wished to be serious and specific about the geological time scale...however I am not that fussed if it was an oversight smile .

Yeah things change Seira, though the scale of millions of years compared to the Bee's dick level of our own existence does matter, to us at least when it comes to the comprehension of such existential matters.
Still, I totally agree that on the larger time scale you are quite correct and that we can not disregard the past evidence that leads us to this point in time , Nor what it tells us about the here and now as we interpret it.
Just the mind numbing difference of time between the Cenozoic and the Miocene as we understand it , multiple millions of years that we are hard up understanding in scale alone let alone comprehending the changes that took place in the evolution of our species and the planet as a whole, just that by itself deserves an whole other thread.

Unfortunately though you are corresponding with someone who got kicked out of a Catholic High School at the age of 15 in the deep dark North of Australia and went to work as a Butcher back in the very early 80's and then spent the better part of the next ten years of their life as a Nightclub DJ.

A good part of thirty years later and after raising five kids, here we are discussing aspects of the planets weather on an internet forum that wont allow a real discussion of such, despite not ever meeting each other.

Funny how the world changed societally but not so much on forums such as this huh ? We are free to discuss issues such as space weather, but not the Holy Cow openly since 2013 ?
We can open threads that skirt around it to a point, but any open discussion is knocked on the head straight up.

Threads such as this are allowed as long as you walk a very fine line about what you post, but when a die hard fanatic from the opposing point of view post's contrary dogma from the opposing point of view on a thread deliberately, the whole thing get's shut down.

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#1497496 - 14/04/2019 09:25 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
bbowen Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 30/03/2011
Posts: 176
Ohh FFS Marakai How come every thread I see you pop up in, you keep pushing your agenda regardless of whether it was warranted or not. You really need to take a step back and just accept that if you don't like this thread/forum/discussion you go and discuss your topics elsewhere it really isn't that hard. It is like a kid whining over their lollies being taken.

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#1497508 - 14/04/2019 16:06 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Seina Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 27/08/2003
Posts: 7770
Loc: Adelaide Hills
Originally Posted By: marakai
We are free to discuss issues such as space weather, but not the Holy Cow openly since 2013 ?

That is correct! It was revoked by the admin, for all! My understanding is climate can be discussed, but not with the added word on the end!


Edited by Seira (14/04/2019 16:15)

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#1497513 - 14/04/2019 17:21 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Petros Offline
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Registered: 30/12/2002
Posts: 8071
Loc: Maffra, Central Gippsland, Vi...
Taboo subject or not, my view is that what happened on earth millions of years ago is interesting fact/fossil wise, .....but not really relevant to this topic nor the taboo subject.

Because millions of years ago the earths continents/oceans were in different places, the earths planetary neighbours were in a different location in the cosmos, and the sun was a lot younger. Indeed for me, going back even only centuries ago to look for present time weather analogs holds little interest as conditions, even decades ago may never be precisely replicated.

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#1497537 - 15/04/2019 18:42 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: bbowen]
marakai Offline
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Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: bbowen
Ohh FFS Marakai How come every thread I see you pop up in, you keep pushing your agenda regardless of whether it was warranted or not. You really need to take a step back and just accept that if you don't like this thread/forum/discussion you go and discuss your topics elsewhere it really isn't that hard. It is like a kid whining over their lollies being taken.


Umm...I might be wrong, but I think I actually started this thread bbowen... Maybe you need to be aware of where you are and what you are replying to before responding huh ?

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#1497538 - 15/04/2019 18:59 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Petros Offline
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Registered: 30/12/2002
Posts: 8071
Loc: Maffra, Central Gippsland, Vi...
Always interested to read your input on this fascinating weather facet maraki.

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#1497544 - 15/04/2019 19:36 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Petros]
marakai Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: Petros
Always interested to read your input on this fascinating weather facet maraki.

I appreciate that Petros, I would also hope that others realize that it is just an opinion which is expressed so that an actual discussion might take place. Unfortunately you get the occasional febrile opinion and personality that is just unable to deal with anyone else having an opposing point of view on anything at all.

Just discussion itself is akin to Blasphemy, and openly questioning becomes Satanistic to some.

Once upon a time people could actually have a discussion about such things.

Now just mentioning a different point of view is met by fanatical and unfounded diatribe by many where any sort of actual questioning is met by vehemence and ridicule just for the mere fact of questioning the status quo.

The mere point of raising a pertinent FACT attracts personal and baseless attacks just for questioning Science.

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#1497546 - 15/04/2019 19:52 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
cold@28 Offline
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Registered: 07/02/2011
Posts: 3036
Loc: Chillagoe
Originally Posted By: marakai
...I would also hope that others realize that it is just an opinion which is expressed so that an actual discussion might take place. Unfortunately you get the occasional febrile opinion and personality that is just unable to deal with anyone else having an opposing point of view on anything at all.

Just discussion itself is akin to Blasphemy, and openly questioning becomes Satanistic to some.

Once upon a time people could actually have a discussion about such things.

Now just mentioning a different point of view is met by fanatical and unfounded diatribe by many where any sort of actual questioning is met by vehemence and ridicule just for the mere fact of questioning the status quo.

The mere point of raising a pertinent FACT attracts personal and baseless attacks just for questioning Science.

You're right marakai. No-one discusses anything now. People are completely polarised, and go on the attack if they even think you disagree. It's like they don't know what a discussion is. And they are not even willing to listen to anyone's point of view, just cut you off. It's very sad really.

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#1497549 - 15/04/2019 21:08 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Flowin Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 15/10/2017
Posts: 966
Loc: Pinjarra Hills, Qld
Improved science only occurs when there is discussion.
Discussion only gets meaningful when there is respect AND acknowledgement of other opinions. That in itself is challenging enough. It is even more challenging though in this modern expectation of political correctness.
Overcoming all those challenges takes courage. Courage is assisted with those with a passion for the topic. Being passionate about a topic is not enough as it also needs open minded objectivity.
Apologies if all of the above is ideological, bring on the discussion but just be careful that discussion is not always easy.


Edited by Flowin (15/04/2019 21:10)

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#1497550 - 15/04/2019 21:08 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: cold@28]
marakai Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: cold@28
Originally Posted By: marakai
...I would also hope that others realize that it is just an opinion which is expressed so that an actual discussion might take place. Unfortunately you get the occasional febrile opinion and personality that is just unable to deal with anyone else having an opposing point of view on anything at all.

Just discussion itself is akin to Blasphemy, and openly questioning becomes Satanistic to some.

Once upon a time people could actually have a discussion about such things.

Now just mentioning a different point of view is met by fanatical and unfounded diatribe by many where any sort of actual questioning is met by vehemence and ridicule just for the mere fact of questioning the status quo.

The mere point of raising a pertinent FACT attracts personal and baseless attacks just for questioning Science.


You're right marakai. No-one discusses anything now. People are completely polarised, and go on the attack if they even think you disagree. It's like they don't know what a discussion is. And they are not even willing to listen to anyone's point of view, just cut you off. It's very sad really.

\
Thankyou for that Coldy, I personally get a great deal of satisfaction knowing that people like yourself are still out there thinking for themselves and at the same time are reading and making their own minds up about what they read. Not that they believe what I post, but that they read and check stuff out for themselves.

I don't have a problem with people who disagree, just those who like little Children are suppliant to all they are told and that accept all they are told.
Not and never trying to convert anyone though, just looking for a discussion is all.


Edited by marakai (15/04/2019 21:10)

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#1497551 - 15/04/2019 21:17 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Seina Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 27/08/2003
Posts: 7770
Loc: Adelaide Hills
If others wished to explore space weather and its effects on our climate, maybe looking further into the Milankovitch Factors would be of assistance. Just a thought/suggestion smile . Alternatively tidal braking due to lunar effects could be examined.

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#1497576 - 16/04/2019 17:53 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
bbowen Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 30/03/2011
Posts: 176
Marakai, Who started the thread has no bearing on what I said, this thread is about Space weather so talk all you want about that. It is the constant jabs you put in about the forum in general, regardless of relevance that wears thin.

You might find this odd but I find a lot of what you say both interesting and though provoking and I also agree with some of your points.

These forums have rules for a reason because people tend to get out of control, yes you and I are guilty, so always bringing it up gets weary. I know your views on the forum, I agree as do others but let it go.

BTW, You seem to also make a lot of assumptions of people that you don't really know, when they have an opposing view.

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#1497583 - 16/04/2019 19:55 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 01/05/2014
Posts: 2842

If down the track it became accepted science that what bombards earth from across the entire electromagnetic spectrum was the paramount driver of earth climate, than it would have been thus for all earth history. This makes the entire scope of the geological past not only relevant, but a prime consideration in my opinion.
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#1497641 - 18/04/2019 16:36 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Delta-T Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 21/01/2011
Posts: 203
Loc: Peachester
On and on and on, thread after thread; thinly veiled climate denial flame-bait and you play all innocent when they get shut down.

These quotes from the last six days alone.

"pumped out by rote learning grad students trapped on the treadmill of university learning, all dependent upon getting a pass from their Biased Hierarchy"

"die hard fanatic from the opposing point of view post's contrary dogma"

"akin to Blasphemy, and openly questioning becomes Satanistic to some"

"met by fanatical and unfounded diatribe"

"met by vehemence and ridicule just for the mere fact of questioning the status quo"

"those who like little Children are suppliant to all they are told and that accept all they are told"

"I Don't know why I keep having the same discussion time after time with all this."

Neither does anyone else.

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#1497647 - 18/04/2019 20:24 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Delta-T]
Knot Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 01/05/2014
Posts: 2842
Do you have to use the loaded terms 'denier' 'denial' when voicing your opinions regarding other posters whose opinions you don't share. It personally creeps me out with visions of Inquisition. Surely you could use a more nuanced term that allows for conversation. As far as spaceweather being a climate driver, do you have any opnion about it?
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#1497650 - 18/04/2019 21:19 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Delta-T Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 21/01/2011
Posts: 203
Loc: Peachester
The effect of spaceweather on the earth's climate is barely non-zero compared with about thirty other metrics.

Anything but CO2.

If I keep reading denier flamebait bs as above I will keep calling it out as denier flamebait bs and if the thread is closed the OP can blame himself.

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#1497652 - 18/04/2019 22:18 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Delta-T]
Seina Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 27/08/2003
Posts: 7770
Loc: Adelaide Hills
Originally Posted By: Delta-T
The effect of spaceweather on the earth's climate is barely non-zero compared with about thirty other metrics.

The thing is, until other people provide evidence and an interpretation for such a hypothesis of that nature, contextually it is another point of view.

The one thing -- above all -- I'd like to know is whether it is possible to have sound, thorough objective discussion on this weather forum. But I am not out to make it happen...I tend to think it's the decision of the collective, and see how that collective decision bodes with time.


Edited by Seira (18/04/2019 22:19)

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#1497653 - 18/04/2019 22:24 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Delta-T]
Knot Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 01/05/2014
Posts: 2842
I think you are going out on a limb saying spaceweather has no appreciable climate impact compared to other things like the gas you mention. The tools currently studying it mught be thought of as primitive in 100 years. For the record I am not against that gas having a climate impact. I just don't see it as something to get apocalyptic about. There are far greater things beyond our atmosphere that have caused rapid ecosystem desolation. Gamma ray bursts as has been brought up. And then there's asteroids, rogue comets. Possibly microbes from space. Probably other things we no little about. There won't be much in the way of warnings. Hopefully a lot of us will be asleep should such things happen.
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#1497662 - 19/04/2019 08:17 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Eigerwand Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 28/05/2012
Posts: 526
I’m with you Delta-T. Nothing I have seen in this thread has really caught my eye as to demonstrating some phenomena that was hitherto unknown or under-appreciated as a driver of the Earth’s climate, based on current scientific evidence and not just random speculation.

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#1497667 - 19/04/2019 10:16 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 01/05/2014
Posts: 2842
The Younger Dryas is an interesting period due to the rapid onset of cooling when an iceage was coming to an end. It is generally believed that massive freshwater runoff altered the heat transfer conveyor in the Atlantic. But what caused the massive freshwater dumping has different hypotheses. A disputed one was the impact theory. It has been challenged as lacking evidence. https://www.sciencenews.org/article/younger-dryas-comet-impact-cold-snap
However the discovery of a large impact crater in Greenland may give credence to the impact hypothesis https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/11/...act-time-humans

If eventually it is confirmed that the Younger Dryas cooling event was impact related than it would be pretty indicative that beyond our world there lurks some pretty cool stuff that can have a direct causative effect on the entire earths climate. A sobering thought as it is a question of when, not if, it happening again.
P.s Comets, meteorites are not spaceweather per se, but they come from space so maybe should be included under the umbrella of spaceweather.



Edited by Knot (19/04/2019 10:19)
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#1497669 - 19/04/2019 11:49 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Delta-T Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 21/01/2011
Posts: 203
Loc: Peachester
Knot, I commend you for posting something interesting about "Space Weather", if you can call a bollide weather. Any "Driving" is speculative of course, compared to say atmospheric chemistry change, but good luck.

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#1497672 - 19/04/2019 12:28 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Delta-T]
Knot Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 01/05/2014
Posts: 2842
lol. Well I did say that objects etc from space weren't spaceweather per se. But point taken


Edited by Knot (19/04/2019 12:30)
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#1497743 - 20/04/2019 23:13 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: bbowen]
marakai Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: bbowen
Marakai, Who started the thread has no bearing on what I said, this thread is about Space weather so talk all you want about that. It is the constant jabs you put in about the forum in general, regardless of relevance that wears thin.

You might find this odd but I find a lot of what you say both interesting and though provoking and I also agree with some of your points.

These forums have rules for a reason because people tend to get out of control, yes you and I are guilty, so always bringing it up gets weary. I know your views on the forum, I agree as do others but let it go.

BTW, You seem to also make a lot of assumptions of people that you don't really know, when they have an opposing view.



Yet to see you actually take part in any sort of discussion on the subject's raised bbowen except for the odd comment in either this or any previous contact we have had here, so you must excuse my assumptions.
Maybe next time if you were not to start out with "Oh FFS" as your first word in comment then we might endeavour to have a less confrontational basis for communication.
As for my forum comments:, If opinions are not expressed and discussed, then what hope is there for any change ? The members here are the actual product of this website, and WZ would not exist without us all. Yes they do provide a service, but at the same time it is the membership base that allows WZ to exist as a viable ongoing concern which provides such a service.

It is my opinion that you can't have one without the other, and that the "Rules" are imposed not only for the relief and or convenience of Mods who would appear to be unpaid volunteer types, but also so as to appear as a neutral source of information to the general public. That is the owners right and they are under no obligation to provide a platform for either side of the "forbidden" debate. That said though, some Mod's and or owners of the sight may have a leaning one way or another as well, as is their right also.

My opinion is subject to a bunch of gate keepers as a result, so far I have not been subject to ANY personal censure for my personal opinion on any of the subjects I have chosen to post upon except for two occasions over the last decade or more, I once wished a new years gift of a broken leg upon one person and was also censured recently for inappropriate racial profiling on a certain topic, I think I received a 3 day time out for my first one.

All other deletes of posts of mine have been in response to post's of other so far as I am aware, though I stand to be corrected if people can provide evidence of such over the last ten years.

The problem that we have here is a failure to communicate.

Just think

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#1497747 - 20/04/2019 23:52 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Knot]
marakai Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: Knot

If down the track it became accepted science that what bombards earth from across the entire electromagnetic spectrum was the paramount driver of earth climate, than it would have been thus for all earth history. This makes the entire scope of the geological past not only relevant, but a prime consideration in my opinion.


Think about it Knot (though you already obviously have).

All people know about in general is Sunspot's. Nothing at all about the Electro Magnetic field surrounding and protecting the Earth, it's Weakening or Strengthening. Likewise the Strength or Weakness of that of the sun's own magnetic field which also protects Earth from Galactic cosmic ray's and other assorted effects.
No thought at all given to the changing/Swapping of the Electromagnetic poles of either the Earth or the Sun and what effects that might have as it occurs, Which is actually happening right now.

No thought at all, that while both the Earth and the Sun have had up until recent times quite a robust Electromagnetic Field protection of the Earth, both are falling away at the same time and exposing the Earth to not only any large solar discharges which might occur, but also Galactic effects as well.

No thought as to how the now known yet previously ignored effects of Coronal Solar Holes, protons, Solar wind and Charged particles and plasma that bombard Earth each and every minute of every day have an effect on our Planet and it's weather.

The silence about it all is deafening. Try and discuss it with supposed like minded people interested in an associated subject such as Weather and all you get are Crickets and the associated Scorpions and Centipedes who's only interest is to take an interest in floating you over the River and the bite. (IE The Scorpion and the Frog).

All I am after is a discussion about such things. But it would seem that any sort of honest discussion here is impossible as the mere mention of something that dares to question the "Status Quo" is immediately labeled as 1984 style wrong think and targeted by a specialized Cadre of NPC's who's life seems to depend upon either disrupting or disputing any sort of contrary thought or even any suggestion of it while never suffering any sort of discipline as a result either.

Appreciate your thoughts Knot, open minds are a rare thing in this day and age.
I'm not after conformation of my thoughts or opinions but just about having a discussion that can be had with similar curious minds that are open to the concept of... if the information changes.... then so can my Mind/Opinion as well.


Edited by marakai (20/04/2019 23:54)

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#1497750 - 21/04/2019 00:06 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Delta-T]
marakai Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: Delta-T
On and on and on, thread after thread; thinly veiled climate denial flame-bait and you play all innocent when they get shut down.

These quotes from the last six days alone.

"pumped out by rote learning grad students trapped on the treadmill of university learning, all dependent upon getting a pass from their Biased Hierarchy"

"die hard fanatic from the opposing point of view post's contrary dogma"

"akin to Blasphemy, and openly questioning becomes Satanistic to some"

"met by fanatical and unfounded diatribe"

"met by vehemence and ridicule just for the mere fact of questioning the status quo"

"those who like little Children are suppliant to all they are told and that accept all they are told"

"I Don't know why I keep having the same discussion time after time with all this."

Neither does anyone else.


Hello Darkness My Old Friend,
I see youv'e come to play again,
In the shadows you keep creeping,
With no substance you keep speaking,

With a voice, that everybody hears,
Yet it's all... without any substance.

So Delta, I would love for you to go back and grab any of the above quotes and put them into full context so that we might go through them all one by one together and see what sort of an antagonist you really are and show everybody reading this your real agenda.

Your all quick off the mark to nail anybody else with such a label but as a true believer, I'm sure you are quite aware of Ole Saul and his work.

go ahead Delta and show us who you really are.

Projection Much ?




Edited by marakai (21/04/2019 00:08)

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#1497751 - 21/04/2019 00:28 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Seina]
marakai Offline
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Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: Seina
Originally Posted By: Delta-T
The effect of spaceweather on the earth's climate is barely non-zero compared with about thirty other metrics.

The thing is, until other people provide evidence and an interpretation for such a hypothesis of that nature, contextually it is another point of view.

The one thing -- above all -- I'd like to know is whether it is possible to have sound, thorough objective discussion on this weather forum. But I am not out to make it happen...I tend to think it's the decision of the collective, and see how that collective decision bodes with time.


Not that it's up to you Seina, either the discussion side of things nor the effects of Space Weather.

I might observe though, that the collective is not what it seems or is projected as. Those such as Delta and it's NPC comrades would have you believe that they are the consensus and that they represent the majority, the likes of the Project on 10 and the 7:30 report on the ABC all report the same regurgitated lame stream news report over and over for a few days on a convenient news piece put out by XYZ. Just check out the latest of Walrus' Committing Suicide rather than watching the latest MAFS series... Damn I meant Cause Climate Change and Polar Bears and Stuff ETC.

Never mind that the footage was filmed a few years back and it is a regular occurrence and all that. Just Blame it on Humans right, without any empirical evidence and ram that point home with a DOCO right ?

People need to wake up to what is happening here, Hand's up anyone who think's that they are responsible for Walrus' jumping off a cliff ?

And if so why... Please provide some Empirical Evidence of such as well.

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#1497756 - 21/04/2019 07:08 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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Registered: 01/05/2014
Posts: 2842
I think perspective is a big part in this discussion. For me personally, the only way of maintaining it, is keeping in mind the totality of Earth's physical history. Spaceweather has been, and always will be impacting our small blue planet. Discovering just what those impacts may be and the effects on climate(s) on Earth is so fascinating.
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#1497816 - 23/04/2019 07:40 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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Registered: 01/05/2014
Posts: 2842
I found an interesting read regarding gamma ray bursts which were found to be at their most intense during solar minimums. There is some not fully understood relationship suggested between these bursts, the suns fluctuating magnetic field and interstellar bombardment of the sun from supernovae or neutron star collisions and solar cycle. When the sun cycle is maximum the gamma burst taper off. This is very interesting, as during a solar maximum less gamma rays would be hitting the Earth. And during minimum the opposite would be the case. If gamma rays are involved in cloud forming nucleation, then more cloud cover would be expected during solar minimums and hence cooler climate. The inverse occuring during maximums. https://www.scientificamerican.com/artic...-one-knows-why/
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#1497825 - 23/04/2019 11:16 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Knot]
Delta-T Offline
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Registered: 21/01/2011
Posts: 203
Loc: Peachester
Interesting stuff but from the link:

"The solar cycle also plays a minor role in climate, as variations in irradiance can cause slight changes in average sea-surface temperatures and precipitation patterns."

Again, interesting. Also interesting has been the negative corellation between irradiance and global temperatures as we descend into the so-called solar minimum, I guess something else is swamping the solar variation's influence.



Makes sense if the solar cycle is only a "minor" player.

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#1497834 - 23/04/2019 16:25 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Delta-T Offline
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Registered: 21/01/2011
Posts: 203
Loc: Peachester
If you're into solar cycles here is something to get your teeth into and discussed further here.

"It tells a story of long slow decline into icier and icier conditions, although we may have levelled off over the last million years.

But there’s more to the data than the very-long-term trend. There’s all that wiggling around up and down, which it turns out isn’t just random. It shows structure, in fact it shows cyclic behavior..."

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#1497837 - 23/04/2019 16:40 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Delta-T]
Knot Offline
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Registered: 01/05/2014
Posts: 2842
Yes I saw that in the article. It is a statement by Shannon Hall and perhaps editorial staff at Scientific American. It may be true. But advances in understanding down the track may render the claim as obselete. Regardless, it is interesting about the connection with supernovae and neutron stars bombarding the sun and causing showers of gamma rays that would normally be absorbed, but due to magnetic field fluctuations , can escape. And quote 'If this is happening, the gamma rays Fermi has been detecting are likely some of those high-energy escapees.
If this interpretation is correct, says Randy Jokipii, a retired astronomer from the University of Arizona who was not involved in the study, it is no surprise high-energy gamma rays are more likely to be emitted during solar minimum. When the solar cycle is at low ebb, he says, there is a reduction in its outgoing “winds” of charged particles—which act as a shield to deflect incoming cosmic rays. This reduction allows more cosmic rays to enter our solar system, and our star itself. So an uptick in cosmic rays should lead to an uptick in gamma rays.' unquote.
This is a newish discovery. Who knows where it leads.
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#1497839 - 23/04/2019 17:28 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
MOUNTAIN h2o Offline
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Registered: 23/03/2012
Posts: 789
Loc: Hobart Lenah Valley Tas 198 as...
Anyone think that we are drifting towards the Sun and no one is game enough to tell the populace ?
Imagine the the chaos and anarchy that would unfold. Is it just possible ?

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#1497840 - 23/04/2019 17:34 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Raindammit Offline
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Registered: 14/02/2002
Posts: 13367
Loc: Townsville & Bilyana NQ
For that to happen, you'd think there would have to be a major disruption to the earth's orbit due to some sort of massive object (rouge planet or other large stellar object, black hole etc etc). I can't see how that would go unnoticed, even by the general population.
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#1497841 - 23/04/2019 18:13 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Kino Offline
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Registered: 10/08/2017
Posts: 3505
Loc: Wollongong, NSW, Aus
Unless it happened pre tech era and it’s slowly drifting closer?

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#1497843 - 23/04/2019 19:03 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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Registered: 01/05/2014
Posts: 2842
The quake that triggered the 2004 boxing day tsunami added around and inch to the earth's 33 feet wobble. The Japan quake of 2011 shortened the day by 1.8 microseconds ( far less than the wind effect by a factor of 300). It would take a massive cluster to change earth orbit much from terrestrial events. Extraterrestrial is another matter. There haven't been any of those or we would know about it in our time. Despite that, I have thought about the possibility of orbital changes beyond the accepted Milankovitch cycles.
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#1497847 - 23/04/2019 20:57 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
MOUNTAIN h2o Offline
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Registered: 23/03/2012
Posts: 789
Loc: Hobart Lenah Valley Tas 198 as...
Thanks for the responses smile Interesting forum and a great read for sure.

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#1497851 - 23/04/2019 21:41 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Raindammit]
Delta-T Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 21/01/2011
Posts: 203
Loc: Peachester
Originally Posted By: Raindammit
For that to happen, you'd think there would have to be a major disruption to the earth's orbit due to some sort of massive object (rouge planet or other large stellar object, black hole etc etc). I can't see how that would go unnoticed, even by the general population.


I don't think it matters what colour it is.

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#1497876 - 24/04/2019 19:23 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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Registered: 01/05/2014
Posts: 2842
Speaking of colours, this pic from 2005 shows what the Earth would look like if we could see gamma ray wavelengths
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#1497877 - 24/04/2019 19:42 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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Registered: 01/05/2014
Posts: 2842
Just to show I'm a gamma ray junkie I can't help but post this snippet about a GRB's energy. When I read it I almost fell down with a 'you have to be #ckin' kidding.' Quote "Gamma-ray bursts are the most energetic and luminous electromagnetic events since the Big Bang and can release more energy in 10 seconds than our Sun will emit in its entire 10-billion-year expected lifetime!". Unquote. https://science.nasa.gov/ems/12_gammarays

It would be exciting if in the future an inverse relationship was discovered between forcing gases and gamma rays and thus on the radiative balance.
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#1497878 - 24/04/2019 20:13 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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Registered: 01/05/2014
Posts: 2842
The following link, though headed by a very brief abstract, has an extensive reference list of articles, many of which discuss gamma rays. Enough reading for the next 20 years. Very intriguing about possible linkages between lightning/ thunderstorms and gamma rays ( terrestrial eminating and cosmic). https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10712-018-9469-z
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#1497887 - 24/04/2019 21:52 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Knot]
Eigerwand Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 28/05/2012
Posts: 526
Originally Posted By: Knot
Just to show I'm a gamma ray junkie I can't help but post this snippet about a GRB's energy. When I read it I almost fell down with a 'you have to be #ckin' kidding.' Quote "Gamma-ray bursts are the most energetic and luminous electromagnetic events since the Big Bang and can release more energy in 10 seconds than our Sun will emit in its entire 10-billion-year expected lifetime!". Unquote. https://science.nasa.gov/ems/12_gammarays

It would be exciting if in the future an inverse relationship was discovered between forcing gases and gamma rays and thus on the radiative balance.


Radiation in the form of gamma rays is produced in the core of the sun but as these particles collide with other particles on their journey to the surface of the sun, they lose much of their energy. By the time they reach the surface of the sun they have become the more familiar, uv, visible light, infrared etc. I would think given the sporadic nature that the Earth would receive gamma ray radiation from supernova, neutron stars etc it would be extremely unlikely such a mechanism would play a role in the Earth’s finely tuned homeostasis. I can’t see any reason to expect a relationship between gamma ray radiation and forcing gases. Particularly as most forcing gases are in the lower layers of the atmosphere, further discounting the likelihood of a relationship between the two in maintaining radiative balance.

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#1497891 - 25/04/2019 02:15 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: MOUNTAIN h2o]
marakai Offline
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Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: MOUNTAIN h2o
Anyone think that we are drifting towards the Sun and no one is game enough to tell the populace ?
Imagine the the chaos and anarchy that would unfold. Is it just possible ?


Doub't it very much M8, "but what if the Sun was drifting towards us instead" ? Sigh... Nah that's not gonna happen I don't think.

Much more chance of me as a + 50 year old making out with Taylor Swift or some such ephemeral thought than that happening in our life time.

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#1497892 - 25/04/2019 02:33 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Delta-T]
marakai Offline
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Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: Delta-T
Interesting stuff but from the link:

"The solar cycle also plays a minor role in climate, as variations in irradiance can cause slight changes in average sea-surface temperatures and precipitation patterns."

Again, interesting. Also interesting has been the negative corellation between irradiance and global temperatures as we descend into the so-called solar minimum, I guess something else is swamping the solar variation's influence.



Makes sense if the solar cycle is only a "minor" player.


Delta.
I honestly don't think you know what you are trying to explain here really. You don't seem to have a real grasp of what the Sun provides other than what you are personally looking for.

I understand that you have a personal "Belief" on the subject at hand, but in reality you seem to be unable to grasp the actual Science as provided.

Just as an example , could you let us all know the effects of a large Coronal hole directed towards the Earth as opposed to a large Flaring Sunspot directed away from the Earth ?

Maybe let us all know the effects of a Weakening magnetic shield produced from the Earth and maybe the effects of a 10X Solar Flare directed straight towards our planet ... ??

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#1497893 - 25/04/2019 02:49 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
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Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
All you have is a chart, which represents what exactly? .

In the words of a great Aussie politician....

Please Explain ?

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#1497894 - 25/04/2019 06:22 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Eigerwand]
Knot Offline
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Registered: 01/05/2014
Posts: 2842
Gamma rays bursts are also emitted by the earth itself, through our atmosphere into space. Satellites have detected this phenomena since gamma ray detectors have been utilised.The source is open to conjecture. Sunil Gupta, an expert on such matters from India, proposes that thunderstorms are the cause. Quote "the violently powerful potential of thunderstorms could help settle a cosmic mystery that scientists like Gupta and his colleagues have asked for decades: Why do satellites sometimes detect high-energy
gamma rays blasting out of Earth's atmosphere
, when they should be raining down from space?
According to Gupta, if thunderstorms can indeed create an electric potential greater than one gigavolt, they could also accelerate electrons quickly enough to break apart other atoms in the atmosphere, producing gamma-ray flashes.
This explanation requires more research to verify its accuracy, Gupta said." Unquote
If Gupta's hypothesis proves correct and thunderstorms do produce GRB than that opens up some exciting lines of enquiry vis a vis atmospheric physics and chemistry. https://www.livescience.com/65055-thundercloud-voltage-mapped-with-muons.html


Edited by Knot (25/04/2019 06:28)
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#1497908 - 25/04/2019 11:51 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Delta-T Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 21/01/2011
Posts: 203
Loc: Peachester
Originally Posted By: marakai
could you let us all know the effects of a large Coronal hole directed towards the Earth as opposed to a large Flaring Sunspot directed away from the Earth ?

Maybe let us all know the effects of a Weakening magnetic shield produced from the Earth and maybe the effects of a 10X Solar Flare directed straight towards our planet ... ??


I provided evidence showing there is no corellation bewteen the 11 year solar cycle and average global temperature as a "Climate Driver"

So you move the goal posts.

Provide some evidence that any of these interesting phenomena you mention has any effect (let alone a significant effect) on the global climate as the title of this thread demands.

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#1497919 - 25/04/2019 16:00 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Mega Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 03/02/2003
Posts: 7899
Loc: Maryborough, Wide Bay, QLD
Originally Posted By: marakai
All you have is a chart, which represents what exactly? .

In the words of a great Aussie politician....

Please Explain ?


lol

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#1497945 - 26/04/2019 07:03 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 01/05/2014
Posts: 2842
I found this article, http://www.q-mag.org/lightning-triggered-by-cosmic-rays.html concerning a theory of lightning generation called the "runaway breakdown" theory. In a nutshell it postulates that cosmic radiation initiates lightning rather than the commonly accepted view that it is turbulence/updrafts. Quote "According to their theory, stormclouds, sometimes several kilometers high, consitute a perfect target for the steady bombardment of charged particles from space pattering down on Earth: it is these particle storms which tear apart the cloud particles, triggering a destructive chain reaction: negatively charged particles shoot out to all sides like runaways, crash into raindrops, tear them apart, so that thousands and thousands of new charged particles are being created. When the cloud reaches several thousand volts, lightning bolts lash out to equalize the tension." Unquote.
I am not sure of the current state of play of the research. It was due to commence at the Pierre Auger Observatory in Argentina in 2012 and run for a number of years. see here https://www.researchgate.net/publication...ger_Observatory
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#1497947 - 26/04/2019 07:23 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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Registered: 01/05/2014
Posts: 2842
Why mention lightning? Well if RB theory turns out to be correct than the more cosmic bombardment the more lightning in the atmosphere. The more lightning, the more changes in atmospheric chemistry. The more changes in atmospheric chemistry, the greater potential to have a climate impact. A package of instruments on the ISS called the Atmosphere-Space Interactions Monitor will be examining the interaction of lightning and atmosphere in more detail than ever before https://m.esa.int/Our_Activities/Human_and_Robotic_Exploration/The_chemistry_of_lightning
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#1498014 - 27/04/2019 22:30 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Knot]
marakai Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: Knot
Gamma rays bursts are also emitted by the earth itself, through our atmosphere into space. Satellites have detected this phenomena since gamma ray detectors have been utilised.The source is open to conjecture. Sunil Gupta, an expert on such matters from India, proposes that thunderstorms are the cause. Quote "the violently powerful potential of thunderstorms could help settle a cosmic mystery that scientists like Gupta and his colleagues have asked for decades: Why do satellites sometimes detect high-energy
gamma rays blasting out of Earth's atmosphere
, when they should be raining down from space?
According to Gupta, if thunderstorms can indeed create an electric potential greater than one gigavolt, they could also accelerate electrons quickly enough to break apart other atoms in the atmosphere, producing gamma-ray flashes.
This explanation requires more research to verify its accuracy, Gupta said." Unquote
If Gupta's hypothesis proves correct and thunderstorms do produce GRB than that opens up some exciting lines of enquiry vis a vis atmospheric physics and chemistry. https://www.livescience.com/65055-thundercloud-voltage-mapped-with-muons.html


Exactly, something a lot of people are unaware of. It is a two way feed between the Earth and the Sun along with Vis Versa. The exact same evidence is actually visible with Lightning and the electrical exchange between Lightning strikes that originate from either the Earth or the Clouds, along with Cloud to Cloud as well.

Enter the Plasma or Electric phenomena to explain all this and you approach a much more viable and eloquent explanation than exist's at the moment with the search for the Holy Dark Energy.

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#1498015 - 27/04/2019 22:59 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Delta-T]
marakai Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: Delta-T
Originally Posted By: marakai
could you let us all know the effects of a large Coronal hole directed towards the Earth as opposed to a large Flaring Sunspot directed away from the Earth ?

Maybe let us all know the effects of a Weakening magnetic shield produced from the Earth and maybe the effects of a 10X Solar Flare directed straight towards our planet ... ??


I provided evidence showing there is no corellation bewteen the 11 year solar cycle and average global temperature as a "Climate Driver"

So you move the goal posts.

Provide some evidence that any of these interesting phenomena you mention has any effect (let alone a significant effect) on the global climate as the title of this thread demands.


No Delta, I merely highlighted your current understanding of the effects of the Sun upon the Earth based upon "YOUR" understanding of an 11 year Solar Cycle.

I informed you that there is a whole lot more than Sunspots based upon said cycles which you are either unaware of or do not understand and I have also provided numerous previous examples of Space Weather upon the Earths Weather as well as clear evidence of the Sun's influence upon Earthquakes as well.

The fact that you refuse to acknowledge any such effects, despite numerous NASA and associated other Foreign organizations partaking in joint investigations of such phenomena is a tribute to your partisan view of the subject Delta.

When presented with clear information that there is something else out there other than sunspots your only come back is

"I provided evidence showing there is no corellation bewteen the 11 year solar cycle and average global temperature as a "Climate Driver"

So you move the goal posts."

No,the Evidence is Clear M8, there is something else out there... Your hangup about Global Warming/Climate Change Etc colours every post you make and It's quite evident in every comment that you make that your main concern is all about proving that point despite any opposing evidence.

It is quite clear that you are not interested in discussing any other option of Climate Driver other than your own chosen Human induced one.

So Delta what is your point of being here on this thread at all if you have no interest whatsoever other than disputing any and every point made here ?

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#1498020 - 28/04/2019 06:51 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 01/05/2014
Posts: 2842
What is taking place within a solar cycle is of the greatest significance, not the cycle length. Until fairly recently, sunpot counts have been the typical defining characteristic of a cycle length But we are beginning to understand that that this is far too simple.
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#1498024 - 28/04/2019 08:44 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Delta-T Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 21/01/2011
Posts: 203
Loc: Peachester
"The fact that you refuse to acknowledge any such effects"

Oh stop it.

Here is what I said:

"Provide some evidence that any of these interesting phenomena you mention has any effect (let alone a significant effect) on the global climate as the title of this thread demands."

You say "the Evidence is Clear"

What evidence? Provide a link to something demonstrating that space weather effects acts as a climate driver.

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#1498034 - 28/04/2019 15:25 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Seina Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 27/08/2003
Posts: 7770
Loc: Adelaide Hills
How about people starting debating facts themselves smile rather than debating what constitutes fact and fiction. And do so directly without making references to other contributors!

It really does depend on how objective people want to be in here....


Edited by Seina (28/04/2019 15:30)

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#1498043 - 28/04/2019 18:48 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
crikey Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 01/02/2011
Posts: 3184
Loc: Tweed Heads
Forecast for solar cycle 25.


I think we will learn a lot in the coming years as the solar downturn bites in.
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#1498049 - 28/04/2019 21:25 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Delta-T]
marakai Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: Delta-T
"The fact that you refuse to acknowledge any such effects"

Oh stop it.

Here is what I said:

"Provide some evidence that any of these interesting phenomena you mention has any effect (let alone a significant effect) on the global climate as the title of this thread demands."

You say "the Evidence is Clear"

What evidence? Provide a link to something demonstrating that space weather effects acts as a climate driver.



Although plenty has already been provided Delta, here are just a couple for your digestion.

https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1029/2019JA026533

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1364682618300233

Now, lets see if you can reciprocate and provide a Single peer reviewed paper that can show any direct evidence of your Human produced Goregas and any effect on the climate at all?

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#1498050 - 28/04/2019 21:43 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: crikey]
marakai Offline
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Originally Posted By: crikey
Forecast for solar cycle 25.


I think we will learn a lot in the coming years as the solar downturn bites in.


I think that we also need to take into account the Earths steadily or currently accelerating weakening Magnetic field.

Our magnetic field is what stands between Earth and the effects both of the Sun and GCM's upon the planet, a Carrington type event if it were to happen today would not only be vastly more destructive due to our current reliance upon all things electrical and digital, satellites etc but our magnetosphere is a lot more weaker overall than it was back in 1860 and that effect seems to be accelerating as well.

Science is only just catching on to all this over the last 50 years or so since the advent of Satellites so the unkowns are vastly larger than the knowns for now. One thing we do know though is that Earth is one of only 4 planets in our solar system with a Magnetic field.

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#1498055 - 29/04/2019 00:45 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Seina]
marakai Offline
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Originally Posted By: Seina
How about people starting debating facts themselves smile rather than debating what constitutes fact and fiction. And do so directly without making references to other contributors!

It really does depend on how objective people want to be in here....


I quite like you Seina, you seem to deal just with facts and it makes me think myself.
I myself think that I have provided some, I also think that others are struggling to deal with such facts.

That said.... Facts are such fragile things, One day they exist, the next they are found to be not FACTS.

That is Science though right ?

And I am quite happy with all that.

Question is though, how many are happy with discussing facts ? as opposed to opinions ?

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#1498065 - 29/04/2019 10:36 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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A mass of dense rock beneath southern Africa called the 'African Large Low Shear Velocity Province' is proposed as a cause for the weakening of the Earth's MF https://www.sciencealert.com/something-m...tlantic-anomaly

Research has been done to examine whether there may be any linkage between the current South Atlantic Magnetic Anomaly and temp and rainfall changes https://www.researchgate.net/publication...southern_Brazil
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#1498076 - 29/04/2019 17:41 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Delta-T Offline
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Registered: 21/01/2011
Posts: 203
Loc: Peachester
"Human produced Goregas"

If you say so.

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#1498085 - 29/04/2019 19:33 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
crikey Offline
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Registered: 01/02/2011
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crikey>>>marakia
After reading articles on this topic over the years l have just come to conclude we are in unchartered territory.
Whether you are an AGW proponent or otherwise,
ironically BOTH agree that the future for earths climate is more likely to be extreme and erratic. I find this fact unnerving
As we look to the weather news this week and read in the USA some farmers can't get their potato season started due to spring snow
Whether we find the cause of crop failure to be stratospheric cooling due to reduced solar or human pollutants seems secondary to the results
Food scarcity is likely on the agenda as the greatest challenge for the future.
I wish we were taking precautions to secure food for 7 billion as we move into this phase of climate change

The effects of long term solar minima in the SH are less known.
and l agree the other drivers you mention are also in play.





Edited by crikey (29/04/2019 19:39)
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#1498089 - 29/04/2019 20:13 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Seina Offline
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Registered: 27/08/2003
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Loc: Adelaide Hills
Originally Posted By: marakai
Question is though, how many are happy with discussing facts ? as opposed to opinions ?

Yes...that would be one critical question.... laugh but then we're asking people for their opinions on whether it is worth discussing opinions laugh grin !

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#1498092 - 29/04/2019 22:10 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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Registered: 01/05/2014
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Originally Posted By: marakai




That said.... Facts are such fragile things, One day they exist, the next they are found to be not FACTS.


Some facts are fragile. But facts can also be unassailable. A rejection of an unassailable fact can never lead to the creation of a new fact. It is an unassaiable fact that the Earth is spherical. The notion that the Earth was flat has been entertained as a fact throughout history by a variety of cultures. This fact was assailable and was replaced. No amount of clinging to the assailable previous fact can change the reality that it is no longer fact. To think otherwise transmutes the former fact into a 'belief'. This is such a common and universal human habit that no commentary is necessary. And it explains the stubborn obstinacy of otherwise intelligent people who will believe the nonsense in the satellite era that the Earth is flat.
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#1498093 - 29/04/2019 22:11 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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Registered: 01/05/2014
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Originally Posted By: marakai




That said.... Facts are such fragile things, One day they exist, the next they are found to be not FACTS.


Some facts are fragile. But facts can also be unassailable. A rejection of an unassailable fact can never lead to the creation of a new fact. It is an unassaiable fact that the Earth is spherical. The notion that the Earth was flat has been entertained as a fact throughout history by a variety of cultures. This fact was assailable and was replaced. No amount of clinging to the assailable previous fact can change the reality that it is no longer fact. To think otherwise transmutes the former fact into a 'belief'. This is such a common and universal human habit that no commentary is necessary. And it explains the stubborn obstinancy of otherwise intelligent people who will believe the nonsense in the satellite era that the Earth is flat.


Edited by Knot (29/04/2019 22:12)
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#1498284 - 02/05/2019 22:52 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: crikey]
marakai Offline
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Originally Posted By: crikey
crikey>>>marakia
After reading articles on this topic over the years l have just come to conclude we are in unchartered territory.
Whether you are an AGW proponent or otherwise,
ironically BOTH agree that the future for earths climate is more likely to be extreme and erratic. I find this fact unnerving
As we look to the weather news this week and read in the USA some farmers can't get their potato season started due to spring snow
Whether we find the cause of crop failure to be stratospheric cooling due to reduced solar or human pollutants seems secondary to the results
Food scarcity is likely on the agenda as the greatest challenge for the future.
I wish we were taking precautions to secure food for 7 billion as we move into this phase of climate change

The effects of long term solar minima in the SH are less known.
and l agree the other drivers you mention are also in play.





Take a look at solar flare effects upon Ozone crikey, then a reduced magnetic field upon UV radiation along with that as well.
Svensmark's Galactic ray effect upon cloud nucleation due to the reduction of Earths Magnetic field, then the countless other recent papers on Coronal holes and the particle streams they spew out towards Earth on weekly basis, there is even recent evidence for biological effects upon Human mental and cardiac systems from coronal hole streams as well as recently documented Geologic effects.
All this is new to Science and the subject of much current investigation.

It's also one of the reasons this thread was started, some think that a consensus is the end of the discussion on science and to question the mob is nothing more than Ignorance and Blasphemy, I disagree.

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#1498286 - 02/05/2019 23:18 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Knot]
marakai Offline
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Originally Posted By: Knot
Originally Posted By: marakai




That said.... Facts are such fragile things, One day they exist, the next they are found to be not FACTS.


Some facts are fragile. But facts can also be unassailable. A rejection of an unassailable fact can never lead to the creation of a new fact. It is an unassaiable fact that the Earth is spherical. The notion that the Earth was flat has been entertained as a fact throughout history by a variety of cultures. This fact was assailable and was replaced. No amount of clinging to the assailable previous fact can change the reality that it is no longer fact. To think otherwise transmutes the former fact into a 'belief'. This is such a common and universal human habit that no commentary is necessary. And it explains the stubborn obstinancy of otherwise intelligent people who will believe the nonsense in the satellite era that the Earth is flat.


Pretty Deep there Knot.

I'm still of the mind though that Science is what it is and that previous knowledge and understanding are subject to new and for want of better words "groundbreaking theory's".

The Earth was flat, Now it is spherical. Wegener had a great deal to contend with as well with "consensus science" yet still prevailed.

Now with the likes of the Higgs Boson particle though, theoretical science is able to propose deep layers to our current perception of our existence up to 10 or 11 dimensions deep.

How that is going to work out for us all is another question for another time... or is it ? Maybe it's already been asked and answered a few times already, or not even thought of yet..

I'm quite happy in my physical here and now, for now questioning that which is actually present to question.

That said, I still think that Fact's are Fragile as there is always something more to learn.

Fact's are like a Trampoline, you can bounce off of them and learn new trick's, but all you really do is jump on them until you learn a new trick.

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#1498287 - 02/05/2019 23:23 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Delta-T]
marakai Offline
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Originally Posted By: Delta-T
"Human produced Goregas"

If you say so.


What, no comment on the articles you asked for Delta ? There are a few hundred more if you need more info.
I'm still waiting on at least one from you though, just a single one.

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#1498350 - 03/05/2019 22:39 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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Here is an article that shows how "what might be's" can spin on a name. It has been presumed that lightning would increase in a warming world, but a new study using a different analytical researcg method based on 'upward cloud ice flux' (IFLUX) indicates that lightning strikes may decrease by 15%. https://www.researchgate.net/publication..._climate_change

Now if it does turn out that lightning is caused by gamma rays, than this decrease during warm periods makes sense as less lightning due to less gamma, and subsequently less cloudiness and more heating. The converse being more gamma, more lighning, more cloudiness and cooling. But how all this plays out when our own mag field is weakening might lead to all sorts of contradictions.
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#1498370 - 04/05/2019 18:38 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Namarrkun Offline
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Registered: 17/11/2012
Posts: 571
Loc: Salisbury
Drove through some nice heavy rain out Inglewood way today, but geez it looks ordinary between Warwick and there. Get the other side of Ingelwood out Gundy way to Nindigully, Thallon etc and it’s looking nicer, green in places and some water laying about the table drains in plenty of areas out that way from this latest bit of rain the past few days.

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#1498389 - 05/05/2019 02:44 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Knot]
marakai Offline
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Originally Posted By: Knot
Here is an article that shows how "what might be's" can spin on a name. It has been presumed that lightning would increase in a warming world, but a new study using a different analytical researcg method based on 'upward cloud ice flux' (IFLUX) indicates that lightning strikes may decrease by 15%. https://www.researchgate.net/publication..._climate_change

Now if it does turn out that lightning is caused by gamma rays, than this decrease during warm periods makes sense as less lightning due to less gamma, and subsequently less cloudiness and more heating. The converse being more gamma, more lighning, more cloudiness and cooling. But how all this plays out when our own mag field is weakening might lead to all sorts of contradictions.


Had a quick read knot.

I grew up in Katherine and Darwin N.T, Lightning was a part of my life for a good 20 years at least.

The Cloud height referred to in the linked article somehow extrapolates to the year 2100 from what I read. And then projects a Decrease in lightning for some reason to do with what they call IFLUX.

Just one question I have, is how a .pooftienth or whatever supposed increase in global temperature could have upon a natural Thunderstorm occurring over the Equator?

People might want to check out just what it is to experience a local Darwin thunderstorm. Or what they locally call Hector who occurs daily each season.

Darwin experiences Lightning like you would never believe, It happens right over your head time after time.

Why and When ??? Who Knows...

NEK minute... We are all dead in 12years according to.......... Another Politician....Cause Climate.......

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#1498391 - 05/05/2019 07:04 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Mike Hauber Offline
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Registered: 13/07/2007
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Originally Posted By: marakai


Just one question I have, is how a .pooftienth or whatever supposed increase in global temperature could have upon a natural Thunderstorm occurring over the Equator?



Its actually 0.2 degrees per decade. As has been predicted since as early as the 80s. In contrast people who think that the sun is in charge have constantly been predicting that cooling is about to occur, for as long as I can remember, which on this forum is over 10 years.


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#1498411 - 05/05/2019 16:28 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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Registered: 01/05/2014
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Originally Posted By: Mike Hauber


Its actually 0.2 degrees per decade. As has been predicted since as early as the 80s. In contrast people who think that the sun is in charge have constantly been predicting that cooling is about to occur, for as long as I can remember, which on this forum is over 10 years.



the sun is the heat engine of the Earth. Factors occuring on Earth that effect the radiative balance may be more complex than a gascentric approach to episodic heat or cool cycles. That's not to say that gases are not a factor. It's just possible they are not the sole factor nor the most paramount. The whole point of this thread I think, is that open minded enquiry can chase some spaceweather rabbits and see where it leads. There may be nothing to it. Alternatively there could be some discussion of discoveries made that one day become text book science. If a downturn in temp does not happen when a view is held that it should happen during solar minimums for example, it may mean the hypothesis is wrong. But this could be the result of other factors at work that we don't understand yet or know little about


Edited by Knot (05/05/2019 16:32)
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#1498413 - 05/05/2019 16:54 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
retired weather man Offline
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Registered: 01/07/2007
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Well said - Knot.

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#1498421 - 05/05/2019 19:22 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Knot]
Seina Offline
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Registered: 27/08/2003
Posts: 7770
Loc: Adelaide Hills
Originally Posted By: Knot
Originally Posted By: Mike Hauber


Its actually 0.2 degrees per decade. As has been predicted since as early as the 80s. In contrast people who think that the sun is in charge have constantly been predicting that cooling is about to occur, for as long as I can remember, which on this forum is over 10 years.



the sun is the heat engine of the Earth.

The Sun provides Earth with solar energy -- an engine does work with energy input smile .


Edited by Seina (05/05/2019 19:28)

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#1498439 - 06/05/2019 05:50 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Seina]
Knot Offline
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Originally Posted By: Seina

The Sun provides Earth with solar energy -- an engine does work with energy input smile .


Are you saying that Earth climate is the engine and the Sun provides the fuel for it? If not what do you mean? Semantics could split hairs on this ad infinitum but when all said and done, No Sun, no climate.

@RWM cheers mate
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#1498478 - 06/05/2019 20:14 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Seina Offline
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Registered: 27/08/2003
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Originally Posted By: Knot
Originally Posted By: Seina

The Sun provides Earth with solar energy -- an engine does work with energy input smile .


Are you saying that Earth climate is the engine and the Sun provides the fuel for it? If not what do you mean? Semantics could split hairs on this ad infinitum but when all said and done, No Sun, no climate.


This is not splitting hairs or the like -- it is relatively straightforward.

I'm conveying thermodynamically (factually) that the Sun does not drive the Earth’s climate that I am aware. The Earth’s atmosphere (particularly the near-surface environment) is decoupled from space. The magnetosphere and all related dynamic features are the nearest casual connection the climate has to space beyond the atmosphere.

A driver of our climate is the ability of a climate system to do work with the energy it receives. That is a physical definition. That means it needs a place to store and access energy.

As I indicated before/previously, if people do not wish to discuss these lines of inquiry in a legitimate scientific sense, that’s fine – however expect some ambiguity and vagueness if so. If people want reasonable scientific discussion, expect the accurate and logical use of scientific terminology, including definitions.

However, above all else, we need a sense of humour within whatever we're discussing, and an acknowledgement of how it relates to the weather.

smile


Edited by Seina (06/05/2019 20:20)

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#1498479 - 06/05/2019 23:06 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Seina]
marakai Offline
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Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: Seina
Originally Posted By: Knot
Originally Posted By: Seina

The Sun provides Earth with solar energy -- an engine does work with energy input smile .


Are you saying that Earth climate is the engine and the Sun provides the fuel for it? If not what do you mean? Semantics could split hairs on this ad infinitum but when all said and done, No Sun, no climate.


This is not splitting hairs or the like -- it is relatively straightforward.

I'm conveying thermodynamically (factually) that the Sun does not drive the Earth’s climate that I am aware. The Earth’s atmosphere (particularly the near-surface environment) is decoupled from space. The magnetosphere and all related dynamic features are the nearest casual connection the climate has to space beyond the atmosphere.

A driver of our climate is the ability of a climate system to do work with the energy it receives. That is a physical definition. That means it needs a place to store and access energy.

As I indicated before/previously, if people do not wish to discuss these lines of inquiry in a legitimate scientific sense, that’s fine – however expect some ambiguity and vagueness if so. If people want reasonable scientific discussion, expect the accurate and logical use of scientific terminology, including definitions.

However, above all else, we need a sense of humour within whatever we're discussing, and an acknowledgement of how it relates to the weather.

smile


This would have to be one of the most senseless things I have read and I am quite surprised that it came from you Seina.

"A driver of our climate is the ability of a climate system to do work with the energy it receives. That is a physical definition. That means it needs a place to store and access energy."

Go have a look at what happens when a solar Flare Wipes out the Ozone layer.

You Claim that Earths atmosphere is decoupled from Space ???
Just how the hell do you claim that ?


Quote:
A driver of our climate is the ability of a climate system to do work with the energy it receives


Care to explain the Aurora, the effect of stratospheric warming or cooling, and the concurrent effects on the atmosphere IE: Polar stratospheric clouds as a result and the concurrent effects on the Polar stream.

The effects of Coronal Holes upon the Earth and the actual predictive skill now available for Earthquakes of which NASA is now involved in amongst others.

Our Sun is the ONLY place that the Earth receives any sort of energy from in any form.
Quote:

I'm conveying thermodynamically (factually) that the Sun does not drive the Earth’s climate that I am aware. The Earth’s atmosphere (particularly the near-surface environment) is decoupled from space. The magnetosphere and all related dynamic features are the nearest casual connection the climate has to space beyond the atmosphere.



Care to propose any other effect other than the Sun that Drives Earths Climate then Seina ?
I am aware of the magnetic effects but as for our
atmosphere on Earth Our sun is the Closest and major effect.

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#1498480 - 06/05/2019 23:11 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
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Some alternative thinking to the Standard Model.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7l-ravG20CE

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#1498481 - 06/05/2019 23:22 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Mike Hauber]
marakai Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mike Hauber
Originally Posted By: marakai


Just one question I have, is how a .pooftienth or whatever supposed increase in global temperature could have upon a natural Thunderstorm occurring over the Equator?



Its actually 0.2 degrees per decade. As has been predicted since as early as the 80s. In contrast people who think that the sun is in charge have constantly been predicting that cooling is about to occur, for as long as I can remember, which on this forum is over 10 years.



Thanks for your interest here and contribution Mike.

As I'm sure you are aware though, up till recent times all Solar input has been attributed to TSI and nothing else.
Meanwhile NASA has launched a range of Satellites to investigate all manner of other effects. Coronal Holes and their effects on the Earths Geology is but one that is shiny and new to science over the last few years alone.

Science is not a stagnant thing, it chops and changes all the time with new knowledge.

If allowed....

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#1498489 - 07/05/2019 07:10 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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Registered: 01/05/2014
Posts: 2842
@Seina. If you said 'changes in insolation don't drive Earth's climate' you would be expressing a testable hypothesis. And of course it is the basis of the predominant idea that radiative gas forcing is driving warming. And it is a perfectly valid scientific hypothesis. But we know of past changes which had nothing to do with gas forcing (e.g pressure differences which may have caused MWP) so there are clearly other players involved. Thus there is space for other hypotheses to explain climate variability.
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#1498536 - 07/05/2019 18:19 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
bbowen Offline
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Registered: 30/03/2011
Posts: 176
Marakai, I don't get it you want people to participate in the discussion, but when people do, you seem to try to denigrate and pick holes and push your ideas as though they aren't to be argued. For someone who feels as superior as you apparently do you still seem to struggle with general interpersonal skills.

Someone puts up their own argument, with what they believe to be supporting evidence (even if it isn't) and you attack it in a way that isn't conducive to that person really continuing on. But then you put up your argument as though you have all the answers and it is flawless, and to be taken as fact.

You know the saying, bees, honey etc. etc.



Edited by bbowen (07/05/2019 18:23)

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#1498548 - 07/05/2019 20:24 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
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Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
It's a debate bbowen.
I try and use information that is current and from reputable sources.
If such information refutes that provided by others, that does not make me superior nor does it mean that I am personally attacking anyone, it is not my information or research presented after all.
Emotion does not really come into the equation at all bbowen, the fact that you feel it does is not my problem, it is yours.

If the information provided is unable to withstand scrutiny and opposing evidence discredits it with superior research and evidence, I fail to see how that is my problem.

Bee's and Honey ? I'm not here for Kumbaya moments bbowen, I'm here for an actual discussion of the evidence presented, some people might feel that it is personal,
I'm not one of them.

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#1498560 - 07/05/2019 22:01 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
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Loc: Maryfarms NQ
The Daily Galaxy


Quote:
“All of these things are way more weird than anyone had predicted,” says astrophysicist John Beacom of the Ohio State University who with colleagues, led by astrophysicist Tim Linden, sifted nearly 10 years of observations from the Fermi Gamma-ray Space Telescope, a NASA observatory that scans the sky from its outpost in low-Earth orbit showing that the sun’s gamma rays do a number of weird things. “And that means the magnetic fields must be way more weird than anyone had thought.”

“It’s amazing that we were so spectacularly wrong about something we should understand really well: the sun,” said Brian Fields, a particle astrophysicist at the University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign.


Edited by marakai (07/05/2019 22:03)

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#1498561 - 07/05/2019 23:03 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Knot]
marakai Offline
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Originally Posted By: Knot
@Seina. If you said 'changes in insolation don't drive Earth's climate' you would be expressing a testable hypothesis. And of course it is the basis of the predominant idea that radiative gas forcing is driving warming. And it is a perfectly valid scientific hypothesis. But we know of past changes which had nothing to do with gas forcing (e.g pressure differences which may have caused MWP) so there are clearly other players involved. Thus there is space for other hypotheses to explain climate variability.


This one may seem a little off topic from the current discussion here but I'm going to post it anyway.

Most people get their "Science" from the mainstream sources IE the stuff they are fed as accepted doctrine through schooling and then on into TV documentary's and news story's that all align into an approved version of what is what.

Inconvenient questions are ignored or explained away as outliers or just anomalies that should be ignored or treated as "fringe Science" or loopy theory's that are nothing more than annoying unexplained inconsistencies to the accepted mainstream megalith of current day "Science".

University's and Government Organizations, Esteemed Scientist's and Nobel Prize winners all stake their reputations upon being Right about all manner of subjects. Billions of dollars in funding flow to such organizations every year based upon their apparent knowledge and the appearance of providing the most up to date and well researched information and education available on their area of Expertise.

I won't bore people again with the list of all the times they have been wrong about something that they took decades to recognize due to such esteemed organizations being obstinate in accepting that they got things wrong, but merely ask that people watch the following video with an open mind and ask some questions themselves.

I provide it with the caveat that I personally do not agree with all of the information provided but that the creator of the video makes some great points about mainstream science being unable to accept questioning itself, when that should be the whole point of Science.

The relevance to this thread topic comes in at about 19:30 on the Vid, but I would encourage all to watch the whole thing just as an example of how recent discovery's and disagreements can be totally shoved away so as to continue the charade of an all knowing establishment that will not abide any questioning of their authority until their position becomes overwhelmed by contrary data, to the point they have no other option other than to adjust their point of view just a little to accommodate the inconvenient FACTS but still ignore the TRUTH.


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#1498568 - 08/05/2019 08:16 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Mike Hauber Offline
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Registered: 13/07/2007
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Pretty much every discipline of science attracts its crackpots who think that the consensus is wrong. In pretty much every case the crackpots are wrong.

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#1498583 - 08/05/2019 12:09 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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Registered: 01/05/2014
Posts: 2842
I guess Copernicus was a crackpot /s

The magnetic field gets discussed a bit in this thread. But what is it exactly. The following article is pretty erudite. https://web.ua.es/docivis/magnet/earths_magnetic_field2.html

The article mentions a correlation between tropical rainfall and field changes. Very interesting.
Another interesting phenomena is 'atmosphere stripping'.




Edited by Knot (08/05/2019 12:16)
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#1498586 - 08/05/2019 14:31 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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Registered: 01/05/2014
Posts: 2842
Reference No.4 in the article posted previously has a dead link. The paper cited was by Mads Faurschou Knudsen and Peter Riisager in 2009 concerning correlation between tropical rainfall and changes in Earth's magnetic field. The paper can be found Here


Knudsen and some colleagues ha ve another interesting article concerning whether there is a link between solar & volcanic forcing and the AMO from 1800 onwards. https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms4323






Edited by Knot (08/05/2019 14:36)
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#1498589 - 08/05/2019 14:59 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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Copernicus was aware he would be thought a crackpot or 'insane' for challenging the consensus of centuries. In the preface to his work 'De revolutionibus orbium coelestium' he opined "Those who know that the consensus of many centuries has sanctioned the conception that the earth remains at rest in the middle of the heaven as its center would, I reflected, regard it as an insane pronouncement if I made the opposite assertion that the earth moves."
A truly great man.
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#1498593 - 08/05/2019 15:49 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
bbowen Offline
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Registered: 30/03/2011
Posts: 176
Marakai, You pretend that you are free of emotion in your posts, and that you are coming from the facts only side. I have seen a trend through your posts in regards to certain people where clearly you have allowed your emotions to show through.

And I BTW I don't care to contribute anything of worth to this thread. I was interested in some of the viewpoints and discussion, but now I find it better to watch you throw three paragraphs and together to try and elevate your side of the argument, when someone has differing view.

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#1498594 - 08/05/2019 16:44 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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Registered: 01/05/2014
Posts: 2842
Hope all can work things out and contribute. Speaking for myself, I think it pretty clear that I am a bit of a climate sceptic so to speak. Not for scientific reasons per se. I sincerely believe there is room for alternative theories and opinions. What turns me off the so called consensus, is that it appears to be hijacked by a political spectrum which I do not like as a political philosophy. Anyways I don't wanna stray too far off the topic into territory that just sparks conflict. I hope others can accept my views without sharing any of them. My days of tussling on this forum are over in favour of a more mellow vibe. Bury hatchets and let us learn from each other if possible.
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#1498605 - 08/05/2019 20:52 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Knot]
Seina Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 27/08/2003
Posts: 7770
Loc: Adelaide Hills
Originally Posted By: Knot
What turns me off the so called consensus, is that it appears to be hijacked by a political spectrum which I do not like as a political philosophy.

I do not invest much (if any) time and effort in that word (consensus) because it has been an oxymoron (as in a scientific...) from day one.

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#1498607 - 08/05/2019 21:17 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Knot]
Eigerwand Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 28/05/2012
Posts: 526
Originally Posted By: Knot
Hope all can work things out and contribute. Speaking for myself, I think it pretty clear that I am a bit of a climate sceptic so to speak. Not for scientific reasons per se. I sincerely believe there is room for alternative theories and opinions. What turns me off the so called consensus, is that it appears to be hijacked by a political spectrum which I do not like as a political philosophy. Anyways I don't wanna stray too far off the topic into territory that just sparks conflict. I hope others can accept my views without sharing any of them. My days of tussling on this forum are over in favour of a more mellow vibe. Bury hatchets and let us learn from each other if possible.


And the people that seem to be at odds with that particular consensus wouldn't be using their so called 'scepticism' to push any preconceived political or economic points of view now would they???

I don't want to open up a debate on the topic but balance of input is important.

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#1498611 - 08/05/2019 23:38 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: bbowen]
marakai Offline
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Registered: 05/01/2006
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Originally Posted By: bbowen
Marakai, You pretend that you are free of emotion in your posts, and that you are coming from the facts only side. I have seen a trend through your posts in regards to certain people where clearly you have allowed your emotions to show through.

And I BTW I don't care to contribute anything of worth to this thread. I was interested in some of the viewpoints and discussion, but now I find it better to watch you throw three paragraphs and together to try and elevate your side of the argument, when someone has differing view.





bbowen if certain people contribute nothing to the thread overall and have a past repertoire of questioning anything outside of their shuttered world view on things, have a history of doing nothing more than stirring conflict in the hopes that a topic will be closed down as a result, then I will treat them with the disdain that they deserve.

Your comment above is a perfect example, as is the one before it, you add nothing to the discussion except your hurt feelings and snide comments.

Is that the only reason for your commenting here on this thread ? On the basis of the available evidence provided, one would have to surmise that yes, you are only here to disrupt and interfere with the discussion at hand.

You don't contribute anything of worth to this thread because that is not why you are here.

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#1498612 - 08/05/2019 23:57 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Mike Hauber]
marakai Offline
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Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: Mike Hauber
Pretty much every discipline of science attracts its crackpots who think that the consensus is wrong. In pretty much every case the crackpots are wrong.


Might want to go and ask NASA about their opinion on what they got wrong with a whole host of things to do with Magnetic Fields and other such things Mike.

Quote:
“It’s amazing that we were so spectacularly wrong about something we should understand really well: the sun,” said Brian Fields, a particle astrophysicist at the University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign.

https://dailygalaxy.com/2019/05/weird-signal-from-the-sun-reveals-startling-mysteries/

Is a Crackpot one who proposes a Theory is correct, up until their own evidence proves them wrong ? Or the one who questions the Theory in the first place and is then proven right ?

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#1498616 - 09/05/2019 08:34 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Mike Hauber]
Mike Hauber Offline
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The crackpots are the ones that propose that established core theories of an entire field of science is wrong.

This happened for a reason, and was predicted in advance. The reason was not the sun.



Edited by Mike Hauber (09/05/2019 08:34)

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#1498639 - 09/05/2019 13:39 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Kino Offline
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Registered: 10/08/2017
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Loc: Wollongong, NSW, Aus
Bit like the "crackpots" who challenged the flat earth theory or every other "settled science" theory historically.


Edited by Kino (09/05/2019 13:39)

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#1498641 - 09/05/2019 14:26 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Kino]
Eigerwand Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 28/05/2012
Posts: 526
I think you’ll find it was the church that pushed the flat earth theory. It was known to be round at least since Eratosthenes calculated the circumference of the Earth around 200BC. So far as I am aware science never considered the theory of flat earth to be “settled science”.

Always love reading the terrible and inaccurate references made by those that think today’s crop of scientists could somehow be oblivious to all these possible unknowns to current Earth science and climate theory.


Edited by Eigerwand (09/05/2019 14:26)

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#1498645 - 09/05/2019 14:57 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Kino Offline
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Registered: 10/08/2017
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Actually, he was disputed by the "scientists" of the time which caused him to be investigated by the government of the time, which was the Church. Much like posting a 35 year graph and using that to prove history of a piece of rock 4 billion or more years old.


Edited by Kino (09/05/2019 14:58)

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#1498646 - 09/05/2019 15:48 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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Registered: 01/05/2014
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If the premise is accepted that gas radiative forcing is not responsible for every instance of regional climate warming in previous periods ( The MWP for example), than the question remains, what caused the warming? Orbital changes? Less volcanism? Oceanic circulation? Solar output? Magnetic fields? Could be combinations of these or a singular cause. If past climates have been affected by forcings other than atmospheric gases, than it seems perfectly rational to examine the impacts such forcings may have today and will certainly have in the future.


Edited by Knot (09/05/2019 15:53)
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#1498649 - 09/05/2019 16:19 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
bbowen Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 30/03/2011
Posts: 176
Marakai, And there you go assuming the what view I have on the world. I don't plan on having this topic closed down, you will achieve that through people eventually deciding that they no longer wish to contribute, if they are forced to have to provide a suitable (to you) level of scientific proof.

I was here at first because I was interested in the topic, but as time has gone on, I see that unless the evidence/opinions people provide are to your level of satisfaction, there seems to be nothing to talk about.

You can choose to react/read my posts if you wish, I must say though that everytime I have said something you have felt the need to respond so I must be triggering you in some way, but it isn't about emotion is it?

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#1498668 - 09/05/2019 20:21 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Kino]
Eigerwand Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 28/05/2012
Posts: 526
Originally Posted By: Kino
Actually, he was disputed by the "scientists" of the time which caused him to be investigated by the government of the time, which was the Church. Much like posting a 35 year graph and using that to prove history of a piece of rock 4 billion or more years old.


You're talking about Copernicus? He wasn't concerned with whether the Earth was flat, he proposed the heliocentric model that the Sun was the centre of the solar system.

Forget the graphs then. Consider that the Earth is undergoing an extinction event with extinction rates estimated to 100-1000 times greater than the natural background rate. The causes are indeed multifactorial but it would no doubt appear that climatic conditions, most notably warming, is adding to species loss at a rate that seems far greater than what the Earth's geological history dictates should be the case, short of some cataclysmic event like what did the dinosaurs in.

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#1498671 - 09/05/2019 21:05 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Mike Hauber]
marakai Offline
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Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: Mike Hauber
The crackpots are the ones that propose that established core theories of an entire field of science is wrong.

This happened for a reason, and was predicted in advance. The reason was not the sun.



Yeah, take that chart back to pre 1930 and see how it look's Mike.

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#1498672 - 09/05/2019 21:18 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: bbowen]
marakai Offline
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Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: bbowen
Marakai, And there you go assuming the what view I have on the world. I don't plan on having this topic closed down, you will achieve that through people eventually deciding that they no longer wish to contribute, if they are forced to have to provide a suitable (to you) level of scientific proof.

I was here at first because I was interested in the topic, but as time has gone on, I see that unless the evidence/opinions people provide are to your level of satisfaction, there seems to be nothing to talk about.

You can choose to react/read my posts if you wish, I must say though that everytime I have said something you have felt the need to respond so I must be triggering you in some way, but it isn't about emotion is it?


Wow, you seem a little bit fixated here bbowen.
You quote me and ask questions/make a comment etc and then wonder why I respond to your questions/comments.
Projection Much ?

I may have forgotten, but can you show one example of any actual contribution to the topic of this thread at all ?

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#1498675 - 09/05/2019 22:11 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Knot]
marakai Offline
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Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: Knot
If the premise is accepted that gas radiative forcing is not responsible for every instance of regional climate warming in previous periods ( The MWP for example), than the question remains, what caused the warming? Orbital changes? Less volcanism? Oceanic circulation? Solar output? Magnetic fields? Could be combinations of these or a singular cause. If past climates have been affected by forcings other than atmospheric gases, than it seems perfectly rational to examine the impacts such forcings may have today and will certainly have in the future.


If Gas Radiative forcing was possible then what has stopped the supposed runaway feedback armageddon in the past when said gas were much much higher than today's levels ?

I think much of the problem lies with the mix of Politics and Science that exists in today's world and the directed funding of taxpayers dollars to institutions that produce so called "Science" which is aligned with Political viewpoints.

Science that does not align with the political viewpoint is deemed either Fringe or Crackpot Science, gets no funding and is refused when it comes to publishing.

Only the accepted consensus get's any airtime/funding/acceptance. Merely questioning it gives you an automatic label of Denier or Crackpot.

Mention the fact or show evidence that there are many known unknowns and even more unknown unknowns to do with what drives the climate and you are automatically assigned to the lunatic asylum by most correct think types.

Ironically though, most of those correct think types can't even be bothered to do any checking or thinking for themselves, they just repeat what the MSM and accepted institutions tell them and repeat it like a Parrot without ever delving into the actual papers or fact checking what they are told.

This Thread topic is a perfect example, Most people see it as an attack on their accepted view of what drives the Climate of the Earth and respond in kind.

Meanwhile it is nothing more than providing information that Most people are unaware of and which is on the cutting edge of Science.
Nearly everybody thinks that Space Weather is just Sun Spot's yet year on year Science is finding more and more effects of our Sun upon the Earth and the workings of our Magnetic field that directly impact not only our Weather but also our Geology as well.

A lot of these recent "Discoveries" were accurately predicted near on a century ago or more by Crackpot Scientist's of the time, Things like Birkeland Currents recently found on our Gas Giants, predicted in 1908 by Norwegian explorer and physicist Kristian Birkeland. He also explained the Cause of Aurora long before being proved correct as well.
Now we have things like Steve and all manner of new Magnetic and Plasma interactions between not only the Earth but also gigantic streams of energy flowing between our Sun and Saturn, Jupiter and Venus as well, along with every other planet in our Solar System.

Our planet Earth has been the subject of Hundreds of Millions of years of both terrestrial and space changes to it's Climate, some gradual some near on instantaneous.

Consensus Science has for at least the last 40 years tried to pin things down to what they actually think they know about what drives our climate, they have provided models, predictions and explanations that have failed miserably so far.

My thoughts are that they are looking in the wrong places, IE Man Made ones explicitly instead of exploring all options and examining the most logical and likely instead of focusing upon the most lucrative and legislative ones.

Science should follow the evidence, not come to a conclusion first and then change and fit the evidence to the conclusion.

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#1498676 - 09/05/2019 22:49 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
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Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
A recent paper that might explain the observed incidence of upwelling neutrinos from the ice surface in Antarctica by the ANITA antennae assembly.

Basically according to modern physics this sort of event should not be able to happen, but it did according to the recordings of ANITA. Might just be a reflection, but if so... how does a neutrino reflect off of ice when it can penetrate everything else in the Universe ?

Quote:
The Antarctic Impulsive Transient Antenna (ANITA)collaboration reports two unusual steeply pointed up-going air showers with energies near the EeV (1018eV)scale [1, 2]. Additionally ANITA has observed∼30events from cosmic rays (CRs) [1–3]. Most of the CRevents appearing to originate from the Earth display acharacteristic phase reversal consistent with the interpre-tation that the signal originated from a downward-goingCR-initiated extensive air shower (EAS) reflected by theAntarctic surface. However, the two anomalous upgoingEASs reported by ANITA [1, 2] lack phase inversion, andthey appear to be inconsistent with such surface reflec-tions.


https://arxiv.org/pdf/1905.02846.pdf

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#1498683 - 10/05/2019 06:03 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 01/05/2014
Posts: 2842
Interesting read. If I read that paper's conclusion correctly than the whole field of determining whether particles are incoming from space or exiting the earth now has a large proviso ie that a reflective surface such as ice must have it's structure examined before a determination of particle origin can be made.
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#1498697 - 10/05/2019 09:05 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
CeeBee Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 25/02/2012
Posts: 2654
Originally Posted By: marakai


If Gas Radiative forcing was possible then what has stopped the supposed runaway feedback armageddon in the past when said gas were much much higher than today's levels ?



Positive feedbacks where the "effect" reinforces the "cause", which will increase the "effect", which will reinforce the "cause" will not lead to a runaway feedback armageddon because each subsequent stage of reinforcement & increase will be weaker and weaker. The feedback cycles will go on and on, but there will be a diminishing of returns, so that after just a few cycles, it won't matter anymore.

This paper goes in depth into the subject of tipping points and feedbacks


https://www.pnas.org/content/115/33/8252
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#1498729 - 10/05/2019 16:01 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
bbowen Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 30/03/2011
Posts: 176
No because generally I am happy to read the forums and form my own opinions, and don't feel the need to contribute. I'm just here now to watch the fun unfold.

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#1498730 - 10/05/2019 16:04 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Delta-T Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 21/01/2011
Posts: 203
Loc: Peachester
"If Gas Radiative forcing was possible..."

Is this where you're up to: someone whose never studied physics disputing the physics? Man are you in for some surprises.


"how does a neutrino reflect off of ice when it can penetrate everything else in the Universe ?"

Including alfoil. You'll need to use a triple layer.

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#1498800 - 11/05/2019 21:00 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Seina Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 27/08/2003
Posts: 7770
Loc: Adelaide Hills
I'll be happier to engage when "pro-this" and "anti-this" are no longer allowed within what is claimed to be scientific discourse on this forum!


Edited by Seina (11/05/2019 21:00)

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#1498801 - 11/05/2019 21:08 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Seina]
Kino Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 10/08/2017
Posts: 3505
Loc: Wollongong, NSW, Aus
Originally Posted By: Seina
I'll be happier to engage when "pro-this" and "anti-this" are no longer allowed within what is claimed to be scientific discourse on this forum!


Oh the sweet irony of this post...

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#1498802 - 11/05/2019 21:17 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Kino]
Seina Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 27/08/2003
Posts: 7770
Loc: Adelaide Hills
Originally Posted By: Kino
Originally Posted By: Seina
I'll be happier to engage when "pro-this" and "anti-this" are no longer allowed within what is claimed to be scientific discourse on this forum!


Oh the sweet irony of this post...

Irony....would people prefer it if I was more polite? I honestly don't care about some of the stuff I see, if it was scientific in the first place, not something I can help with really. I'm just letting know my thoughts...like everyone else apparently.

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#1498803 - 12/05/2019 01:48 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: CeeBee]
marakai Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: CeeBee
Originally Posted By: marakai


If Gas Radiative forcing was possible then what has stopped the supposed runaway feedback armageddon in the past when said gas were much much higher than today's levels ?



Positive feedbacks where the "effect" reinforces the "cause", which will increase the "effect", which will reinforce the "cause" will not lead to a runaway feedback armageddon because each subsequent stage of reinforcement & increase will be weaker and weaker. The feedback cycles will go on and on, but there will be a diminishing of returns, so that after just a few cycles, it won't matter anymore.

This paper goes in depth into the subject of tipping points and feedbacks


https://www.pnas.org/content/115/33/8252






So Typical...
Quote:
We examine the evidence that such a threshold might exist and where it might be. If the threshold is crossed, the resulting trajectory would likely cause serious disruptions to ecosystems, society, and economies. Collective human action is required to steer the Earth System away from a potential threshold and stabilize it in a habitable interglacial-like state. Such action entails stewardship of the entire Earth System—biosphere, climate, and societies—and could include decarbonization of the global economy, enhancement of biosphere carbon sinks, behavioral changes, technological innovations, new governance arrangements, and transformed social values.


Hello Orwell's 1984.

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#1498804 - 12/05/2019 01:50 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Delta-T]
marakai Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: Delta-T
"If Gas Radiative forcing was possible..."

Is this where you're up to: someone whose never studied physics disputing the physics? Man are you in for some surprises.


"how does a neutrino reflect off of ice when it can penetrate everything else in the Universe ?"

Including alfoil. You'll need to use a triple layer.






Care to explain how a neutrino can reflect off of ice Einstein ???

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#1498805 - 12/05/2019 01:53 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Knot]
marakai Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: Knot
Interesting read. If I read that paper's conclusion correctly than the whole field of determining whether particles are incoming from space or exiting the earth now has a large proviso ie that a reflective surface such as ice must have it's structure examined before a determination of particle origin can be made.


Either that or their whole theory must be examined ? Never having studied physic's though I guess I am disqualified from asking such question's posed in the paper huh ?

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#1498806 - 12/05/2019 02:03 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Seina]
marakai Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: Seina
Originally Posted By: Kino
Originally Posted By: Seina
I'll be happier to engage when "pro-this" and "anti-this" are no longer allowed within what is claimed to be scientific discourse on this forum!


Oh the sweet irony of this post...

Irony....would people prefer it if I was more polite? I honestly don't care about some of the stuff I see, if it was scientific in the first place, not something I can help with really. I'm just letting know my thoughts...like everyone else apparently.


Just Gotta go with the flow Seina, I care little about politeness when it comes to such stuff myself, but in this day and age there are a lot of antsy type people who get traumatized by observable evidence that questions their dogma...

You just have to understand, that you letting others know your thoughts is offensive to some, while those letting you know their thoughts, is another thing entirely different.

Just be sure to distinguish Empirical and Observable Evidence from thoughts and feelings and all should be good.

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#1498815 - 12/05/2019 09:14 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Delta-T Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 21/01/2011
Posts: 203
Loc: Peachester
Originally Posted By: marakai
Originally Posted By: Delta-T
"If Gas Radiative forcing was possible..."

Is this where you're up to: someone whose never studied physics disputing the physics? Man are you in for some surprises.


"how does a neutrino reflect off of ice when it can penetrate everything else in the Universe ?"

Including alfoil. You'll need to use a triple layer.






Care to explain how a neutrino can reflect off of ice Einstein ???


Nah, I'm not here to help you pad out your fake "Drivng the Climate" denier rant. You have no intention of discussing effects on the climate. You even question the physics of "radiative forcing" because it doesn't confirm your bias. You'd rather talk about neutrinos, magnetism, aurora, plasma, etc, etc, etc anything but CO2.

That is fine - talk about space weather - but if you think it is in any way an alternative explanation of global over-heating caused by burning fossil fuel you are deluded.

It is painfully obvious this thread, like the others you have started, has nothing to do with it's title. Above, you wrote about a dozen paragraphs of denier tosh and if the mods are going to let you get away with it then I am going to call out your bs.

If you can't cite some research that demonstrates one actual effect on the climate and attempts to quatify it, then rename the thread or close it down.

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#1498821 - 12/05/2019 11:04 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
bbowen Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 30/03/2011
Posts: 176
Marakai - You state that you care little about politeness, my advice would be that if you wish for people to partake in your discussions, be they on either side of the debate, you may have to adjust your attitude. Do I expect it to occur?.....no, but you can't expect too much of a discussion while you 'run' the debate in a way you see fit.

To be clearer I have no opinion/dogma that I am pushing on this thread subject, or care about others opinions about a subject if they provide, to the best of their ability there reasons for it. What I do care about is the way that a discussion progresses to a conclusion, with everyone adding their two cents.

Cheers,

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#1498824 - 12/05/2019 11:27 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 01/05/2014
Posts: 2842
@Delta T
can you explain why there have been periods in Earth's climate history when temperatures were warmer or similar to the current times we live in, yet ppm co2 was less than the early 20th century? If you say there are other forcings, than doesn't that open the possibility that those forcings could be having some impact today and possibly supplant co2 as prime driver in future warming cycles. If you say that co2 has been and always will be the main radiative forcing in past and future climate, could you provide some research about that. Otherwise this all sounds like axe grinding.
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#1498833 - 12/05/2019 12:07 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 01/05/2014
Posts: 2842
Co2 level in the MWP was probably 280ppm (the level stated to have existed from 10000bce till industrialisation commenced)

Wikipedia
https://www.sealevel.info/co2_and_ch4.html
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#1498839 - 12/05/2019 15:05 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Knot]
Delta-T Offline
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Knot, this thread is all speculation. I read it with very low expectations that Space Weather is going have a measurable effect let alone a significant effect on climate. Let alone Drives it.

If that were all this thread is about then fine. But it is not.

I could speculate that mobile phone use is creating an extra electric atmospheric flux and that is what could be having an effect is just as valid.

Phone use and it's effect on Driving Climate.

So I google it and sure enough its a thing.
http://globalmicrowave.org/

ABC. Anything But CO2.


Edited by Delta-T (12/05/2019 15:06)

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#1498844 - 12/05/2019 17:50 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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I don't think it's a case of 'anything but co2'. I think it's a case of whether other things other than gases can alter, impact or drive climate. Perhaps they may not be in the driver's seat at this current time, but they clearly have been so in the past. If so, they change climates. The thread is about just one of a number of possible climate drivers excluding co2, which for obvious reasons is excluded from robust discussion. As for me, I know nothing about other forum members. I have no alliances. I just like to discuss an area of interest that I think is good to hang some comments on.
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#1498845 - 12/05/2019 17:53 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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I don't think it's a case of 'anything but co2'. I think it's a case of whether other things other than gases can alter, impact or drive climate. Perhaps they may not be in the driver's seat at this current time, but they clearly have been so in the past. If so, they change climates. The thread is about just one of a number of possible climate drivers excluding co2, which for obvious reasons is excluded from robust discussion. I reckon this is a good thread to discuss some stuff.
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#1498847 - 12/05/2019 17:53 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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I don't think it's a case of 'anything but co2'. I think it's a case of whether other things other than gases can alter, impact or drive climate. Perhaps they may not be in the driver's seat at this current time, but they clearly have been so in the past. If so, they change climates. The thread is about just one of a number of possible climate drivers excluding co2, which for obvious reasons is excluded from robust discussion. I reckon this is a good thread to discuss some stuff.
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#1498848 - 12/05/2019 17:54 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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I don't think it's a case of 'anything but co2'. I think it's a case of whether other things other than gases can alter, impact or drive climate. Perhaps they may not be in the driver's seat at this current time, but they clearly have been so in the past. If so, they change climates. The thread is about just one of a number of possible climate drivers excluding co2, which for obvious reasons is excluded from robust discussion. I reckon this is a good thread to discuss some stuff.
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#1498855 - 12/05/2019 20:12 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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posting on this forum is a chore on my phone sometimes. Hence multiple post without and with edits
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#1498865 - 12/05/2019 21:51 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Delta-T Offline
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"I reckon this is a good thread to discuss some stuff."

I agree Knot. I could be if the title were changed to Space Weather, and if wasn't poisoned by this kind of ignorant, partisan bs. The same ignorant, partisan bs that is being posted over and over.


"If Gas Radiative forcing was possible...

Consensus Science... have failed miserably so far.

My thoughts are that they are looking in the wrong places, IE Man Made ones..."

...ad nauseum

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#1498871 - 13/05/2019 07:01 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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You could discuss spaceweather in it's own right, without discussions of linkages with climate, granted. But questions have arisen as a result of observations that raise the possibility that spaceweather may in fact directly or indirectly affect climates on the Earth. It simply can't be avoided as more research into this takes place. I have said previously that other forcings have been obviously more dominant than co2 in the past. It's kind of like there is a 'background opportunism' that comes into play and favours one forcing over another when things are all in alignment so to speak. Make any sense?


Edited by Knot (13/05/2019 07:02)
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#1498873 - 13/05/2019 07:45 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
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What are these other forcings Knot? Are they the ones that are listed here?

https://science2017.globalchange.gov/chapter/2/
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#1498875 - 13/05/2019 08:57 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: CeeBee]
Knot Offline
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Originally Posted By: CeeBee
What are these other forcings Knot? Are they the ones that are listed here?

https://science2017.globalchange.gov/chapter/2/


If solar radiation is narrowly defined as infrared heat and U.V than spaceweather that projects other bands of radiation at Earth is not on the list. Neither is magnetic fields.

I note the article makes the point that there are interactions in the forcings listed. quote " Changes in the radiative balance (or forcings) produce changes in temperature, precipitation, and other climate variables through a complex set of physical processes, many of which are coupled" unquote.The authors needed to say that, because if they didn't it would raise the question of how previous warmings have occured with co2 lower than 290ppm. Lower than when the industrial revolution began. It's a real connundrum.

So not on the list ( and the subject of ongoing research) are radiation bands other than IR and U.V, magnetic fields. Hence the thread. To discuss those other things as forcings that possibly directly or indirectly alter the radiative balance.
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#1498884 - 13/05/2019 10:13 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Knot]
CeeBee Offline
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Originally Posted By: Knot
The authors needed to say that, because if they didn't it would raise the question of how previous warmings have occured with co2 lower than 290ppm. Lower than when the industrial revolution began. It's a real connundrum.


Could you please list examples of previous warmings that have occured with co2 lower than 290ppm.
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#1498890 - 13/05/2019 10:43 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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250BCE-400A.D ( think Hannibal being able to lead an army via the Alps) and 950AD-1250AD ( think vikings settling parts of Greenland). Both these time periods occured when CO2 is thought to have been 280ppm. Something other than Co2 changed the climates. What in your opinion?
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#1498894 - 13/05/2019 12:46 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
CeeBee Offline
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I haven't read anything covering the period 250BCE-400A.D. I'll do some research on that.

I've read plenty of papers covering the period 950AD-1250AD though. From my understanding there was warming back then which is similar to the early to mid 20th century warming.

The cause of warming 950AD-1250AD was due to higher than average solar radiation and less volcanic activity.

There is also evidence that changes in ocean circulation patterns brought warmer seawater into the North Atlantic, a region that experienced the most warming back then.
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#1498897 - 13/05/2019 14:33 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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Another interesting warm period without rising co2 is the mid-holocene, approx 6,000 years ago. Nasa puts the warming in that period down to orbital changes. https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/global-warming/mid-holocene-warm-period

I recognise that it will probably be said ' what's all this past jive got to do with today's climate'. A valid criticism. But valid only if the thread was about what is the main forcing of today's climate. Seems to me though that past, present and future are fair game. I am not sure if the thread starter feels that way though. Maybe he could clarify


Edited by Knot (13/05/2019 14:40)
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#1498911 - 13/05/2019 20:08 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Flowin Offline
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I have laid low on this thread topic for a while observing the views expressed, with interest in the importance of the topic, but also amazement that some contributions in both content and tone of comments have not led to closure of the thread.

I have no doubt that influences of "space weather" beyond what happens on earth have some effect on our climate. But how much influence, how significant that influence is, and over what timescale is another question that in my mind is extraordinarily difficult to answer. Whether such influences of beyond earth are significant enough to be concerned about compared to what is happening on our planet including influences of humans such as CO2 is even more complex again.

One point I wish to make though is that these are questions that should not be dismissed and no single question can be said to dominate at this point in time. Regarding the tone of some contributions I think it is fair to say some strong and potentially biased viewpoints are obvious.

Debate is different to discussion. Starting a thread does not give a person 'ownership' of the topic. Criticism without a positive attitude to the contribution to understanding of, and improving the science is a distraction that is probably not helpful, and in my opinion acts to dissuade open discussion. Science and risk do not exist in nature, they are merely constructs of the human mind to explain our current, past and emerging understanding of very complex matters and uncertainties that exist in nature and in some aspects for the human influence on natural systems.

Objective versus subjective science, and empirical science vs theoretical science to me do not have clear boundaries. It is different though for such differences expressed as opinions giving the impression of facts when in reality true facts are as rare as rocking horse poo.

As for long ago climate (which is important) inferred by empirical evidence in geology and related disciplines I think this has a very important role. But we all need to be aware that 'hard and reliable data' from geology and paleo sciences is somewhat limited to be described as 'facts' of climate in the past (say more than about 200 years ago) as it does involve current knowledge inferences for what geological and other 'data' can tell us. Modern and earlier history tell us current knowledge is just a point in time. For example the consensus in the past did think the earth was flat.

Anyway, sorry for the deep philosophical view if anybody is confused by the above, or think it is just a rant.
I am pleased the thread is still alive, and hope it can continue with the right tone of content/opinions and open minded approach to the topic.

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#1498913 - 13/05/2019 20:38 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Flowin Offline
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Further to the my comment earlier, I wish to express an view that I readily admit is emotive, with good reason, that I do take offence with comments from Marakai regarding the millions and billions of dollars spent by researchers and their organisations in pursuit of knowledge.

Expenditure of millions and billions of dollars in research is peanuts, compared to public expenditure on all sorts of matters whether it be for rural or urban support services and development, local-regional-national or even international issues, across matters of social security or economic prosperity or environmental matters, efficiency or equity.

Environmentalism is now replaced with broader sustainability ideas, but sustainability is not a new topic it has been in the literature for centuries if one looks at concepts raised by economist Thomas Malthus.

Anyway this thread would be better off without comments on dollars spent and better focused on what is believed to be known and how that should inform research priorities.

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#1498914 - 13/05/2019 21:00 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
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How often have Malthusian predictions been disproved now Flowin ?

Quote:
From July 14 to 16, 2000, the surface of the sun exploded. Huge, bright flares spewed out into space like powerful fountains colorfully lit from beneath. Within a few hours, the solar storm bombarded Earth with a shower of positively-charged hydrogen atoms, called protons, causing scientific and communications satellites to short-circuit. Through a series of chemical reactions in our atmosphere, the protons drastically diminished the upper-most areas of the ozone layer, a protective blanket mostly in the stratosphere that blocks life-threatening ultraviolet radiation from reaching the Earth. This shower of protons, known by solar science insiders as the Bastille Day event, was the third largest of its kind in the last 30 years.

Atmospheric scientist Charles Jackman and a team of researchers from NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center and Hampton University in Virginia recognized a rare opportunity to gather further proof that solar storms destroy ozone. They already knew that when protons bombard the upper atmosphere, they break up molecules of gases like nitrogen and water vapor. Once freed, those products readily react with ozone molecules and reduce the ozone layer. So, Jackman and his colleagues recalled specific Northern Hemisphere atmospheric data from NASA and National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) satellites that continuously monitor the composition of gases and molecules that surround our planet.

Their findings, published in the August 1, 2001, issue of Geophysical Research Letters, show that less than one percent of total atmospheric ozone in the Northern Hemisphere can be quickly reduced by one of these events. “It is an indication of the power of the sun to actually affect the atmosphere in a sudden, cataclysmic way,” Jackman says. While the results do not show a significant impact on human health, especially considering that most of the ozone loss documented in this study occurs over the northern polar region, they are important scientifically. The study gives detailed and quantified knowledge of how a solar storm affects upper-level ozone. As scientists race to better understand humankind’s role in ozone loss, they must first be able to tease out the natural causes.
https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/features/ProtonOzone


Quote:
Tango in the Atmosphere: Ozone and Climate Change

By Jeannie Allen, NASA Earth Observatory, February 2004

"Ozone chemistry is at the heart of atmospheric chemistry."
— Bill Stockwell, Desert Research Institute

Ozone affects climate, and climate affects ozone. Temperature, humidity, winds, and the presence of other chemicals in the atmosphere influence ozone formation, and the presence of ozone, in turn, affects those atmospheric constituents.

Interactions between ozone and climate have been subjects of discussion ever since the early 1970s when scientists first suggested that human-produced chemicals could destroy our ozone shield in the upper atmosphere. The discussion intensified in 1985 when atmospheric scientists discovered an ozone "hole" in the upper atmosphere (stratosphere) over Antarctica. Today, some scientists are predicting the stratospheric ozone layer will recover to 1980 ozone levels by the year 2050. These scientists say we can expect recovery by that time because most nations have been abiding by international agreements to phase out production of ozone-depleting chemicals such as chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs) and halons. But the atmosphere continues to surprise us, and some atmospheric scientists recently demonstrated a new spin on the ozone recovery story that may change its ending. Well before the expected stratospheric ozone layer recovery date of 2050, ozone's effects on climate may become the main driver of ozone loss in the stratosphere. As a result, ozone recovery may not be complete until 2060 or 2070.

Ozone's impact on climate consists primarily of changes in temperature. The more ozone in a given parcel of air, the more heat it retains. Ozone generates heat in the stratosphere, both by absorbing the sun's ultraviolet radiation and by absorbing upwelling infrared radiation from the lower atmosphere (troposphere). Consequently, decreased ozone in the stratosphere results in lower temperatures. Observations show that over recent decades, the mid to upper stratosphere (from 30 to 50 km above the Earth's surface) has cooled by 1° to 6° C (2° to 11° F). This stratospheric cooling has taken place at the same time that greenhouse gas amounts in the lower atmosphere (troposphere) have risen. The two phenomena may be linked.
Says Dr. Drew Shindell of the NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies (GISS), "I've long been aware that chemistry and climate influence one another strongly. I started to ask how cold the stratosphere might get because of increasing amounts of greenhouse gases. I was wondering whether or not the cooling in the stratosphere would be rapid enough that more ozone depletion would take place than we had previously calculated. Would the cooling be so fast that even more ozone depletion would occur before the impact of international agreements to limit ozone had time to take effect?"

This would create a possible feedback loop. The more ozone destruction in the stratosphere, the colder it would get just because there was less ozone. And the colder it would get, the more ozone depletion would occur.

https://www.giss.nasa.gov/research/features/200402_tango/

Who'd a Thunk Huh ?

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#1498915 - 13/05/2019 21:06 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Flowin Offline
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Originally Posted By: marakai
How often have Malthusian predictions been disproved now Flowin ?

Relevant to some degree. I agree theories get disproved as time goes on.
My point about quoting Malthusian economics is that the concept of sustainability is popularly thought to be new, but it has actually been around for centuries.

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#1498916 - 13/05/2019 21:51 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Flowin]
marakai Offline
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Originally Posted By: Flowin
Originally Posted By: marakai
How often have Malthusian predictions been disproved now Flowin ?

Relevant to some degree. I agree theories get disproved as time goes on.
My point about quoting Malthusian economics is that the concept of sustainability is popularly thought to be new, but it has actually been around for centuries.


Sure has Flowin a prime example is the tragedy of the commons.

I'd also add that we as a Species have learnt very little in the intervening time frame overall, we spend billions on feel good so called Green Initiatives that achieve very little. While we allow the wholesale destruction of vast swathes of old growth Rainforest's , condemn Clean Coal power production but then embrace the use of Wood chips to power so called Green power production.
I'm all for sustainability, the preservation of "Natural" Habitat and the preservation of ecosystems etc.
But how does a growing population in Equatorial Africa hunting bushmeat and burning the local Flora for cooking due to a lack of basic power sources equate to sustainable development ?

How does the rape of Amazonian Rainforest's for old growth timber year after year escape the outrage of sustainability advocates, yet a Coal mine in Australia like Adani capture such focused world wide attention ?

Originally Posted By: Knot
Another interesting warm period without rising co2 is the mid-holocene, approx 6,000 years ago. Nasa puts the warming in that period down to orbital changes. https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/global-warming/mid-holocene-warm-period

I recognise that it will probably be said ' what's all this past jive got to do with today's climate'. A valid criticism. But valid only if the thread was about what is the main forcing of today's climate. Seems to me though that past, present and future are fair game. I am not sure if the thread starter feels that way though. Maybe he could clarify


Take it back a bit further Knot to about 13,000 YBP and you have a classic example of Rapid warming and Sea level rise.

A so far inexplicable change that saw Sea levels rise over 300 feet and Temperatures rise all over the Planet in a geologic blink of the eye.

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#1498918 - 13/05/2019 22:02 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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Ozone & Coke he he he
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#1498919 - 13/05/2019 22:06 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Flowin Offline
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Originally Posted By: marakai
... yet a Coal mine in Australia ...

I don't want to start a coal vs anti-coal debate, but will say the anti-coal protagonist's do get seem to portray a blinkered view that all coal is used for burning in power stations and should be banned. Actually some of Australia's most valued coal mines are not thermal coal but are coking coal. Coke being an very important ingredient for making steel. Without coking coal many of our modern world benefits would not exist. Even the keen cyclists would need to revert to riding wooden bicycles in a world without steel. Anyway that is getting way off topic, but just wanted to point out that anti-coal views need to be more discerning.
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#1498947 - 14/05/2019 17:02 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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https://www.space.com/neutron-star-crash-made-gold-uranium.html

As the articke says, if this occured today at the same distance from Earth and the pole was directed our way , the Gamma Ray burst would release as much energy in 1 second that our sun will radiate in its entire existance. Mind boggling


Edited by Knot (14/05/2019 17:06)
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#1498958 - 14/05/2019 21:20 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
crikey Offline
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I don't doubt that solar storms can destroy ozone
But solar storms happpen, how often?
The trend in stratospheric ozone has been stable since 2000
I am aware of spikes in data from large volcanic activity
but could see no change in data in 2000 solar storm that would considered as an anomaly.?

Another related article

http://joannenova.com.au/2015/01/is-the-sun-driving-ozone-and-changing-the-climate/


Edited by crikey (14/05/2019 21:26)
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#1498986 - 15/05/2019 10:49 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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Follow this flow chart.
Solar Magnetic field weakening >Increase in Gamma Ray showerings on Earth>increase in lightning>increase in ozone in 5 - 13 km Troposphere>increase radiative ozone forcing from surface to 13km >warming.
Cooling being the opposite
Solar magnetic field strengthening>less Gamma ray showers reaching Earth> less lightning>less ozone in 5-13km Troposphere> decreased radiative ozone forcing from surface to 13km>cooling

The spanner in the works for this simple flow chart is changes in Earth's own magnetic field that may interfere with ozone generation or destruction regardless of a warming or cooling trend and vulcanism activity


Edited by Knot (15/05/2019 10:55)
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#1498988 - 15/05/2019 10:59 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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https://www.seas.harvard.edu/news/2017/0...h-s-ozone-layer

Major vulcanism can create more ozone destructive chlorine forms but on the otherhand could increase ozone thickness. Destruction or enhancing depending on levels of bromocarbons in the atmosphere at the time of the eruption


Edited by Knot (15/05/2019 11:09)
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#1498991 - 15/05/2019 11:16 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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The chemical makeup of the eruption itself having a greater or lesser impact on ozone ie according to previous link, if eruption puts more Hcl into the stratosphere, the destruction of ozone would be enhanced.
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#1499009 - 15/05/2019 16:51 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Delta-T Offline
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Is there any evidence space weather affects atmospheric CO2?

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#1499012 - 15/05/2019 18:24 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
crikey Offline
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Ultra violet space weather radiation reacts with both CO2 and Ozone in the stratosphere. They have a role in regulating stratospheric temperature, which teleconnects to a number of climate drivers

Here is a more detailed time series of ozone in the upper layer.

If ozone and CO2increase, the stratosphere warms l believe


https://www.researchgate.net/figure/a-Ti..._fig4_224779148
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#1499022 - 15/05/2019 19:34 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: crikey]
Seina Offline
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Originally Posted By: crikey
Ultra violet space weather radiation reacts with both CO2 and Ozone in the stratosphere.

I cannot find a reference linking CO2 and the Chapman cycle, do you know of one?

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#1499024 - 15/05/2019 20:00 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Seina]
Seina Offline
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Originally Posted By: Seina
Originally Posted By: crikey
Ultra violet space weather radiation reacts with both CO2 and Ozone in the stratosphere.

I cannot find a reference linking CO2 and the Chapman cycle, do you know of one?

Actually scrap that question.

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#1499031 - 15/05/2019 21:50 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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A study in 2014 indicated that UV had a role in creating oxygen directly from co2 with out any biological input in the early Earth atmosphere.
UV is a big part of solar flares, particularly x flares. One would think, in light of the study that spaceweather, of which UV is a part, is still creating oxygen from co2 Whether this UV oxygen creation process has affected climate in any way is a big question, but it at least does show that co2 molecules can be split apart by radiation.

https://www.livescience.com/48125-oxygen-made-from-carbon-dioxide.html


Edited by Knot (15/05/2019 21:59)
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#1499034 - 16/05/2019 00:21 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Knot]
marakai Offline
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Originally Posted By: Knot
A study in 2014 indicated that UV had a role in creating oxygen directly from co2 with out any biological input in the early Earth atmosphere.
UV is a big part of solar flares, particularly x flares. One would think, in light of the study that spaceweather, of which UV is a part, is still creating oxygen from co2 Whether this UV oxygen creation process has affected climate in any way is a big question, but it at least does show that co2 molecules can be split apart by radiation.

https://www.livescience.com/48125-oxygen-made-from-carbon-dioxide.html



Quote:

Chemistry of Ozone Formation
Ozone forms readily in the stratosphere as incoming ultraviolet radiation breaks molecular oxygen (two atoms) into atomic oxygen (a single atom). In that process, oxygen absorbs much of the ultraviolet radiation and prevents it from reaching the Earth’s surface where we live.

In the language of a simplified chemical formula,
O2 + sunlight yields O + O
When an electrically excited free oxygen atom encounters an oxygen molecule, they may bond to form ozone.
O + O2 yields O3
Destruction of ozone in the stratosphere takes place as quickly as formation of ozone, because the chemical is so reactive. Sunlight can readily split ozone into an oxygen molecule and an individual oxygen atom.
O3 + sunlight yields O2 + O
When an electronically excited oxygen atom encounters an ozone molecule, they may combine to form two molecules of oxygen.
O + O3 yields O2 + O2
The ozone formation-destruction process in the stratosphere occurs rapidly and constantly, maintaining an ozone layer.

In the troposphere near the Earth’s surface, ozone forms through the splitting of molecules by sunlight as it does in the stratosphere. However in the troposphere, nitrogen dioxide, not molecular oxygen, provides the primary source of the oxygen atoms required for ozone formation. Sunlight splits nitrogen dioxide into nitric oxide and an oxygen atom.
NO2 + sunlight yields NO + O
A single oxygen atom then combines with an oxygen molecule to produce ozone.
O + O2 yields O3
Ozone then reacts readily with nitric oxide to yield nitrogen dioxide and oxygen.
NO + O3 yields NO2 + O2
The process described above results in no net gain in ozone. Concentrations occur in higher amounts in the troposphere than these reactions alone account for. In the 1950s, chemists discovered that two additional chemical constitutents of the troposphere contribute to ozone formation. These constituents are nitrogen oxides and volatile organic compounds, and they have both natural and industrial sources.

Nitrogen oxides (NOx) Nitric oxide and nitrogen dioxide are together known as NOx and often pronounced “nox.” Sources of NOx include lightning, chemical processes in soils, forest fires, and the intentional burning of vegetation to make way for new crops (biomass burning). NOx also come from smokestack and tailpipe emissions as by-products of the combustion of fossil fuels (coal, oil, and natural gas) at high temperatures. Coal-fired power plants are the primary sources of NOx in the United States. Automobiles, diesel trucks and buses, and non-road engines (farming and construction equipment, boats, and trains) also produce NOx.

Photograph of a refinery
Refineries generate large amounts of nitrogen oxides in the process of distilling gasoline and other petroleum products. Another major source is the burning of oil and gasoline in both power plants and automobiles. These nitrogen oxides form a link in a chain of chemical reactions that form ozone in the lower atmosphere. (Photograph copyright Philip Greenspun)

Volatile organic compounds (VOCs) such as hydrocarbons. “Volatile” refers to an extreme readiness to vaporize. Some plants and bacterial processes in soils emit VOCs. (The smell of a pine forest comes from a hydrocarbon called alpha-pinene.) VOCs also come from gasoline combustion and from the evaporation of liquid fuels, solvents and organic chemicals, such as those in some paints, cleaners, barbecue starter, and nail polish remover.

Photograph of a House Painter
Evaporation of solvents and organic chemicals from some kinds of paint contribute volatile organic compounds (VOCs) to the air. VOCs participate in ozone formation. (Photograph copyright Philip Greenspun)

Ozone formation in the troposphere requires both NOx and VOCs. In a highly simplified version of tropospheric ozone-forming reactions,
NOx + VOC + sunlight yields O3 (and other products)
The formula above represents several series of reactions that do not lend themselves to simple depiction. They involve the oxidation of VOCs in reactions that also involve NOx. Hydroxyl catalyzes some of the key reactions, and dozens of other chemical species take part. The result is ozone, nitrogen dioxide (available for more ozone formation), the regeneration of hydroxyl (available to catalyze more ozone formation), and some other chemical species. The specific ratio of NOx to VOC determines the efficiency of the ozone formation process.

SNIP
https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/features/ChemistrySunlight/chemistry_sunlight3.php

They don't explain what happens to the H in this explanation though!


Edited by marakai (16/05/2019 00:22)

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#1499046 - 16/05/2019 14:30 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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Registered: 01/05/2014
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Interesting read about the sun's version of Rossby waves. https://www.sciencealert.com/planet-sized-waves-have-been-found-rippling-across-our-sun
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#1499062 - 17/05/2019 08:14 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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Registered: 01/05/2014
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As we humans go about our daily business we have a general idea that the Earth rotates and orbits around that big 'gold doubloon' in the sky. But most wouldn't think about the fact that our sun orbits around the centre of the Milky Way at a speed of 230km/s. And they certainly wouldn't think about the fact that our entire solar system fluctuates up and down during the galactic year orbit ie it oscillates vertically. Each oscillation takes approx 60 and 84 million years, meaning that relative to the plane of the galactic centre, the solar system crosses galactic centre every 30-42 million years. Now it so happens that researchers studying an oxygen isotope in shells from around 500 million years ago to today ( the Phanerozoic Eon) by which they could determine seawater temperature changes. They believed the data showed a correlation with the oscillation. Bearing in mind that correlation does not necessarily mean causation. The researchers themselves point out that terrestrial processes could have messed with the correlation or even correlate themselves. None the less it is an interesting line of research https://www.nature.com/articles/srep06150


Edited by Knot (17/05/2019 08:17)
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#1499069 - 17/05/2019 12:39 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Petros Offline
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Registered: 30/12/2002
Posts: 8071
Loc: Maffra, Central Gippsland, Vi...
Posts of late have been fascinating. Thanks all who share.

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#1499105 - 19/05/2019 01:03 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Petros]
marakai Offline
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Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: Petros
Posts of late have been fascinating. Thanks all who share.


I'm not sure that a lot who read here really appreciate what is posted Petros. Many seem to think that it is an attack on the accepted Consensus of Climate Forcing as they see it based on Consensus Values.
I see it more as a contrary option or opinion that needs a lot more discussion.

One thing that I do observe though, is a total reluctance of the obvious empirical evidence being questioned by some.

Just providing some actual Empirical evidence that questions the current status quo alone which call's into question the realism of current Climatic changes based upon Human Causes as opposed to Natural changes sends many people off into histrionic;s that they seem incapable of recovering from.

Meanwhile Science is building daily and yearly Evidence of such each and every day.

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#1499106 - 19/05/2019 01:31 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Knot]
marakai Offline
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Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
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Originally Posted By: Knot
As we humans go about our daily business we have a general idea that the Earth rotates and orbits around that big 'gold doubloon' in the sky. But most wouldn't think about the fact that our sun orbits around the centre of the Milky Way at a speed of 230km/s. And they certainly wouldn't think about the fact that our entire solar system fluctuates up and down during the galactic year orbit ie it oscillates vertically. Each oscillation takes approx 60 and 84 million years, meaning that relative to the plane of the galactic centre, the solar system crosses galactic centre every 30-42 million years. Now it so happens that researchers studying an oxygen isotope in shells from around 500 million years ago to today ( the Phanerozoic Eon) by which they could determine seawater temperature changes. They believed the data showed a correlation with the oscillation. Bearing in mind that correlation does not necessarily mean causation. The researchers themselves point out that terrestrial processes could have messed with the correlation or even correlate themselves. None the less it is an interesting line of research https://www.nature.com/articles/srep06150


Knot, This is the sort of thing I try and teach my 13 and 10 year old Daughters. The thing is, is that they would not get this knowledge anywhere else unless they went to Uni and learnt it.... Maybe.

How many ten year old's understand the speed of our Sun around the center of our Galaxy ? or how our planet exist's and is intertwined within that orbit of it's Solar System within the Milky Way Galaxy?

Where else would they question the concept of dark matter, a theory that is yet to be proven despite the countless millions spent upon it and the concurrent amount of proof's disputing it's existence ?

Consensus Science is Proof Positive of idealized and evidenced proof of no Empirical evidence at all.

Actual Empirical Evidence is able to stand by itself and requires no Consensus.

It is repeatable and reproducible.

How many news releases or actual story's are real "Science" Today ?

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#1499107 - 19/05/2019 02:36 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
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Dark Matter or Magnetic?Electric Filament's stretching over Trillions of Km's ?

"ON THE FORMATION OF DENSITY FILAMENTS IN THE TURBULENT INTERSTELLAR MEDIUMSIYAOXU1,2, SUOQINGJI3,ANDALEXLAZARIAN1Draft version May 17, 2019ABSTRACTThis study is motivated by recent observations on ubiquitous interstellar density filaments and guided bymodern theories of compressible magnetohydrodynamic (MHD) turbulence. The interstellar turbulence shapesthe observed density structures. As the fundamental dynamics of compressible MHD turbulence, perpendicularturbulent mixing of density fluctuations entails elongated density structures aligned with the local magneticfield, accounting for low-density parallel filaments seen in diffuse atomic and molecular gas. The elongationof low-density parallel filaments depends on the turbulence anisotropy. When taking into account the partialionization, we find that the minimum width of parallel filaments in the cold neutral medium and molecularclouds is determined by the neutral-ion decoupling scale perpendicular to magnetic field. In highly supersonicMHD turbulence in molecular clouds, both low-density parallel filaments due to anisotropic turbulent mixingand high-density filaments due to shock compression exist."

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1905.06341.pdf

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#1499112 - 19/05/2019 08:41 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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Registered: 01/05/2014
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Regarding Dark Matter, new particles are suggested to comprise it, an addendum to the standard model. See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersymmetry

Bottom line. We are only scraping the surface. It could very well turn out that there are more fundamental forces than just the Gravitational of General relativity, and the three forces of quantum theory. Super particles may play outside of any rules we currently are aware of. My money though, is on new understandings of the electromagnetic force will one day reveal it to be a TOE. All unified.
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#1499114 - 19/05/2019 10:59 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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I don't wanna bombard with theoretical physics stuff, but attempting to unify forces and or establish additional dimensions is not new. One very interesting theory is Kaluza-Klein Theory. Which in a nutshell seeks to unify Gravity and Electromagnetism via a small 5th dimension that is curved. According to the theory, gravity effects in this small curved dimension, from an observers perspective, would appear to be electromagnetic in nature. Fascinating if ever validated.


https://plus.maths.org/content/kaluza-klein-and-their-story-fifth-dimension

What has any of this to do with spaceweather driving climate some may ask. Possibly nothing. But also possibly everything. We are intelligent ants. But ants nonetheless. And our perspective of knowledge is limited by our field of view. We learn more by ranging further. Observing and proposing. And proposing and observing. A loop. That is science.
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#1499120 - 19/05/2019 16:09 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Seina Offline
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Registered: 27/08/2003
Posts: 7770
Loc: Adelaide Hills
The Chapman Cycle in the stratosphere is central to ozone's consistent regeneration as part of the Ozone Layer.

Within the Chapman Cycle, UV-B (280 to 320 nanometre) and UV-C (200 to 280 nanometre) rays break the molecular bonds of O2 to produce oxygen ions. These oxygen ions act as catalysts to further reactions with other compounds (including Chlorine). A nanometre is 10^(-9) metres, or nm.

The O2 molecules in the upper stratosphere generally lose a single oxygen molecule with UV of wavelengths less than 240 nm (noting lower wavelengths have a higher frequency).

The ozone layer (highest concentration of O3 at about 25 km altitude) is above the altitude (within the atmosphere) where most internal system heat retained, meaning more is lost. This layer, where heat is retained, may also be known as the Planetary Boundary Layer (PBL).

https://cloud1.arc.nasa.gov/solveII/implement.html#1.1

Both O3 and CO2 absorb and emit radiation (solar or terrestrial) within specific wavelength bands. A closer observation of both the solar and terrestrial energy spectrums reveals O3 absorbs UV rays (solar, as indicated above, 0.2 to 0.4-micron range), while CO2 absorbs IR rays (terrestrial).

http://www.meteor.iastate.edu/gccourse/forcing/images/image7.gif

When we look closer at the energy spectrum for the Sun and Earth, we notice the Sun’s photospheric (surface) temperature is around 5780 Kelvin, whereas Earth’s is about 288 Kelvin.

https://www.earthonlinemedia.com/ebooks/tpe_3e/energy/nature_of_electromagnetic_radiation.html

This means that the radiation reaching the top of the Earth’s atmosphere (from the Sun) has a higher-intensity, per unit wavelength, per unit area than the energy leaving the Earth’s surface.

Additionally, wherever a gas resides in the atmosphere, whatever the nature of the gas law (PV = nRT) in that region, the gases will behave accordingly. This implies in the stratosphere, where CO2 dominates and H2O is absent, the CO2 will amplify the gas-law effects. As the stratosphere is above the PBL, within the exception of Ozone-Layer heat, loses heat, CO2 will amplify the loss of heat above the PBL.

To get even more specific, due to the rotation of the Earth’s on its axis, gases, more rather than less, have a tendency, like a spinning top, to settle at in the region of least resistance – i.e. the tropics, hence a tendency of stratospheric ozone to accumulate in tropical regions.

Lastly, due to the Hadley, Ferrell and Polar Cells Circulation system, convection and uplift occurs (mostly) near the Inter-Tropical Convergence Zone (ITCZ), while subsidence and downwelling from the upper troposphere occurs at the poles. Therefore, the tendency of any gas (Nitrogen, Oxygen, Argon, Carbon Dioxide, Chlorine, Hydrogen), would be to ascend into the tropical troposphere, move towards the poles, and descend there, which might go some way towards explaining the hole in the Ozone Layer there.


Edited by Seina (19/05/2019 16:15)

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#1499122 - 19/05/2019 17:13 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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Registered: 01/05/2014
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Regarding ozone holes, I wonder if the fact that lightning is rare at the poles is also a factor
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#1499125 - 19/05/2019 19:56 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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Registered: 01/05/2014
Posts: 2842
Neutrinos have typically been characterised as "ghost particles" which strike and pass right thru the earth at a rate of 65 billion per square centimetre but don't interact apart from the odd collision with an atom. New research challenges this view. It has been standed thinking that radioactive decay rates follow a predictable and constant decay path trajectory. However research points to oscillations in decay rates of 11 and 12.5 cycles per year caused by solar neutrinos. Earlier data collected between 1996 and 2001 indicated an additional 9.5 cycles per year oscillation in decay. Researchers think the oscillations are related to the solar core, the solar radiative zone and a midpoint between the two.
Now if solar neutrinos are indeed not ghost particles and do interact with elements, what else may they interact with. Ions perhaps? Atmospheric chemistry? hmmmm

https://www.space.com/13747-neutrinos-particles-sun-borexino.html
https://physicsworld.com/a/do-solar-neutrinos-affect-nuclear-decay-on-earth/


Edited by Knot (19/05/2019 19:59)
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#1499227 - 21/05/2019 22:53 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Seina]
marakai Offline
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Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: Seina
The Chapman Cycle in the stratosphere is central to ozone's consistent regeneration as part of the Ozone Layer.

Within the Chapman Cycle, UV-B (280 to 320 nanometre) and UV-C (200 to 280 nanometre) rays break the molecular bonds of O2 to produce oxygen ions. These oxygen ions act as catalysts to further reactions with other compounds (including Chlorine). A nanometre is 10^(-9) metres, or nm.

The O2 molecules in the upper stratosphere generally lose a single oxygen molecule with UV of wavelengths less than 240 nm (noting lower wavelengths have a higher frequency).

The ozone layer (highest concentration of O3 at about 25 km altitude) is above the altitude (within the atmosphere) where most internal system heat retained, meaning more is lost. This layer, where heat is retained, may also be known as the Planetary Boundary Layer (PBL).

https://cloud1.arc.nasa.gov/solveII/implement.html#1.1

Both O3 and CO2 absorb and emit radiation (solar or terrestrial) within specific wavelength bands. A closer observation of both the solar and terrestrial energy spectrums reveals O3 absorbs UV rays (solar, as indicated above, 0.2 to 0.4-micron range), while CO2 absorbs IR rays (terrestrial).

http://www.meteor.iastate.edu/gccourse/forcing/images/image7.gif

When we look closer at the energy spectrum for the Sun and Earth, we notice the Sun’s photospheric (surface) temperature is around 5780 Kelvin, whereas Earth’s is about 288 Kelvin.

https://www.earthonlinemedia.com/ebooks/tpe_3e/energy/nature_of_electromagnetic_radiation.html

This means that the radiation reaching the top of the Earth’s atmosphere (from the Sun) has a higher-intensity, per unit wavelength, per unit area than the energy leaving the Earth’s surface.

Additionally, wherever a gas resides in the atmosphere, whatever the nature of the gas law (PV = nRT) in that region, the gases will behave accordingly. This implies in the stratosphere, where CO2 dominates and H2O is absent, the CO2 will amplify the gas-law effects. As the stratosphere is above the PBL, within the exception of Ozone-Layer heat, loses heat, CO2 will amplify the loss of heat above the PBL.

To get even more specific, due to the rotation of the Earth’s on its axis, gases, more rather than less, have a tendency, like a spinning top, to settle at in the region of least resistance – i.e. the tropics, hence a tendency of stratospheric ozone to accumulate in tropical regions.

Lastly, due to the Hadley, Ferrell and Polar Cells Circulation system, convection and uplift occurs (mostly) near the Inter-Tropical Convergence Zone (ITCZ), while subsidence and downwelling from the upper troposphere occurs at the poles. Therefore, the tendency of any gas (Nitrogen, Oxygen, Argon, Carbon Dioxide, Chlorine, Hydrogen), would be to ascend into the tropical troposphere, move towards the poles, and descend there, which might go some way towards explaining the hole in the Ozone Layer there.


Very interesting post Seina, interested on your thoughts about Solar Storms destroying Ozone in epic amounts while the sun is also responsible for the creation of it.

Quote:
Repercussions of Solar High Energy Protons on Ozone Layerduring Super StormsAsheesh Bhargawa∗, M. Yakub and A. K. SinghDepartment of Physics, University of Lucknow-226 007, Indiaasheeshbhargawa@gmail.comReceived2017 December 22; accepted 2018 June 8.


http://www.raa-journal.org/docs/papers_accepted/2017-0267.pdf

Also
Quote:
To get even more specific, due to the rotation of the Earth’s on its axis, gases, more rather than less, have a tendency, like a spinning top, to settle at in the region of least resistance – i.e. the tropics, hence a tendency of stratospheric ozone to accumulate in tropical regions.

Lastly, due to the Hadley, Ferrell and Polar Cells Circulation system, convection and uplift occurs (mostly) near the Inter-Tropical Convergence Zone (ITCZ), while subsidence and downwelling from the upper troposphere occurs at the poles. Therefore, the tendency of any gas (Nitrogen, Oxygen, Argon, Carbon Dioxide, Chlorine, Hydrogen), would be to ascend into the tropical troposphere, move towards the poles, and descend there, which might go some way towards explaining the hole in the Ozone Layer there.


Where is H2O in that bunch of gases ? Point being that along the equator H2O is the most abundant of them all in the atmosphere and along with CO2 the most typically rotated between the surface and atmosphere via vegetative transpiration and evaporation from the surface.

I just read a recent paper on the "squishing" effect upon the Hadley Cell system from Solar effects, will look it up and post the link but in short the explanation was that as Hadley Cells were being squished their respective effect spreads and dumps down further north and south from the equator than expected and disrupts the mid latitude cells as a knock on effect, then it in turn allows the intrusion of the polar circulation to intrude further South and North as a result.

Anyone reading remember Kirlian/Aural Photographs ? Basically an image of a person's or objects magnetic/electrical field. Basically the coronal discharge of a living or inanimate thing captured by camera.

Not into all the Hippy Trippy explanations of it all but the mere fact that the electro/magnetic effect is in clear evidence just go's to show that there is such an effect which is clearly and easily proven even for small and inanimate objects.

Carry that forward to a massive object or Earth sized one, or even on towards a Solar system and imagine the energy's swimming around such a system...

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#1499232 - 22/05/2019 06:57 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 01/05/2014
Posts: 2842
Hard to miss the Kirlian craze in the 70's. Divorced from the paranormal stuff, it is simply a capture of coronal discharges. Coronal discharges produce ozone, and various forms of nitrogen. They are thought to have played a crucial role in Nitrogen fixation in Earth's early atmosphere.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/16231204/
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#1499325 - 23/05/2019 20:09 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
crikey Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 01/02/2011
Posts: 3184
Loc: Tweed Heads
A link to an informative spaceweather web site
https://spaceweatherarchive.com/
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#1499388 - 25/05/2019 16:51 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Seina Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 27/08/2003
Posts: 7770
Loc: Adelaide Hills
Originally Posted By: marakai
Very interesting post Seina, interested on your thoughts about Solar Storms destroying Ozone in epic amounts while the sun is also responsible for the creation of it.

Quote:
Repercussions of Solar High Energy Protons on Ozone Layerduring Super StormsAsheesh Bhargawa∗, M. Yakub and A. K. SinghDepartment of Physics, University of Lucknow-226 007, Indiaasheeshbhargawa@gmail.comReceived2017 December 22; accepted 2018 June 8.


http://www.raa-journal.org/docs/papers_accepted/2017-0267.pdf

Has the paper linked been read so I know whether I'm having a conversation with someone who is already acquainted with it?

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#1499399 - 25/05/2019 18:45 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Seina]
marakai Offline
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Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: Seina
Originally Posted By: marakai
Very interesting post Seina, interested on your thoughts about Solar Storms destroying Ozone in epic amounts while the sun is also responsible for the creation of it.

Quote:
Repercussions of Solar High Energy Protons on Ozone Layerduring Super StormsAsheesh Bhargawa∗, M. Yakub and A. K. SinghDepartment of Physics, University of Lucknow-226 007, Indiaasheeshbhargawa@gmail.comReceived2017 December 22; accepted 2018 June 8.


http://www.raa-journal.org/docs/papers_accepted/2017-0267.pdf

Has the paper linked been read so I know whether I'm having a conversation with someone who is already acquainted with it?


Why would I post the link to it without knowing what is in it Seina ?

Quote:
4 CONCLUSIONS In the present paper we have attempted to manifest the impact of solar storm on total ozone column and ultimately on the variation of UV index. We have observed that the total atmospheric ozone was reduced up to 22±6.8% after the commencement of storm events. After analyzing the results of superpose epoch analysis, we have found that at the time of occurrence of the super storms, the density of solar energetic protons increased suddenly and this enhancement in proton density created a misbalance in the cycle of creation and destruction of the ozone content and as a result sudden decrement in the total ozone column was observed. As the ozone layer works as shield for the UV radiation, hence Variation on its level creates a fluctuation in the value of UV radiation coming towards Earth.Therefore it is clear that during the storm days the level of ozone column decreases due to bombardment of energetic particles these results into a slight increase in the value of UV radiation during the super storm days.


I would pose that not only is the above effect relevant to ozone levels in the Troposphere but also the reduction in the effect of Earths and the Sun's combined protective magnetic field's allows for more intrusion of GCR's which further affects the total of the Ozone layer through all atmospheric levels.

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#1499440 - 26/05/2019 18:47 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 01/05/2014
Posts: 2842
Some info in response to a post by Crikey in another thread. I feel this is a more appropriate thread than posting it there.
Link to a paper from 89 at nasa.gov regarding solar activity and volcanic eruptions. Note statement about solar flares being able to affect the spin of the Earth by causing changes in atmospheric circulation.
https://pubs.giss.nasa.gov/abs/st07500u.html


Edited by Knot (26/05/2019 18:52)
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#1499445 - 26/05/2019 19:28 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
crikey Offline
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Registered: 01/02/2011
Posts: 3184
Loc: Tweed Heads
There are a number of theories re: the cause of increased vulcanism during solar minimum.
Some others include.. global warming re methane burps'

another..the thermosphere contracts. Changes in atmospheric pressure on the crust
and
this is a new one for me ,l found tonight. The space weather cheer squad will love this one poke

"Cosmic rays are high-energy radiation which originates from outside our galaxy. They travel in streams from intergalactic sources, like rivers through the cosmos fueled by supernovae. The uptick in volcanic activity we are witnessing globally is being driven by higher rates of these cosmic rays hitting the planet.'

https://www.xyz.net.au/astrophysicists-link-volcanic-eruptions-grand-solar-minimum/
'caveat warning ..this is a deniers site. enter at own risk poke
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#1499453 - 26/05/2019 20:28 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 01/05/2014
Posts: 2842
From your own blog Crikey
https://weathercycles.wordpress.com/2014/06/28/volcanic-activity-correlated-with-solar-minimum/

Of course there is the counter argument that there is no correlation. see example of such a response here https://earthscience.stackexchange.com/q...and-earthquakes
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#1499454 - 26/05/2019 20:33 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 01/05/2014
Posts: 2842
p.s
an abstract on this topic and some other abstracts on other possible solar related impacts by Jaroslav Strestik
https://www.researchgate.net/publication...long-term_scale
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#1499524 - 27/05/2019 14:26 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Delta-T Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 21/01/2011
Posts: 203
Loc: Peachester
"the cause of increased vulcanism during solar minimum"

What increase?


"The uptick in volcanic activity we are witnessing globally is being driven by higher rates of these cosmic rays hitting the planet."

What uptick?

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#1499551 - 27/05/2019 17:43 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
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Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Might be just like the "Apparent" increase in severe weather events.


Quote:
Strong evidence that the historical trend in volcanism is more apparent than real comes from the lower plot of figure 1. Here only the larger eruptions generating at least 0.1 km3 of tephra (VEI >= 4), the fragmental products of explosive eruptions, are plotted. The effects of these larger events are often regional, and therefore less likely to escape documentation even in remote areas. The frequency of these events has remained impressively constant for more than a century, and contrasts strongly with the apparent increase of smaller eruptions with time. The effects of these large eruptions are far reaching and thus they are less likely to escape documentation even in remote areas.

More recent major eruptions have not had this effect, in part due to more systematic cataloging and media focus on volcanic events. The newsworthiness of an eruption depends more on its location and human impact than on its size. The 1980 St. Helens eruption, for example, generated enormous media attention, while the remarkably similar 1956 eruption of Bezymianny in sparsely populated Kamchatka, in which no lives were lost, was hardly noticed by the world press. Similarly, the 1991 Pinatubo eruption, with its many fatalities and effects on nearby military bases, was front page news, but the eruption of Cerro Hudson that year in isolated southern Chile created barely a ripple in international interest.


http://volcano.si.edu/faq/index.cfm?question=historicalactivity

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#1499554 - 27/05/2019 18:26 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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Good point about 'apparent'. A trend may look like it is increasing, but in reality it may only be the reporting of an event that appears to create a trend.
If there were a 'real' uptick in volcanic activity that could be causally linked to an increase in cosmic radiation it would be intriguing. But if no real uptick despite increased CR than the hypothesis is dead.
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#1499558 - 27/05/2019 18:53 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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Following on from an earlier post that mentions solar flares effecting atmospheric circulation leading to Earth's spin changes (via drag changes I presume), I find interest in research that looked at a correlation with earthquakes 7 and above since 1900 and periodic cycling of earth's spin rate ( slower = more). The spin rate slow down is postulated to be due to molten outer core temporary 'catching' on the inner mantle and changing the earth's magnetic field.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/nov/18/2018-set-to-be-year-of-big-earthquakes
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#1499560 - 27/05/2019 19:00 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
crikey Offline
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Registered: 01/02/2011
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ayeah. Thanks knot re: my own blog. I try not to post them here for fear of being labelled a pedlar of my own blog.
I generally look for some fresh info.

Re research on proof of uptick and increases in volcanism.
There are many research papers .If you choose to dig around.

I find generally there is always controversy , claims and counterclaims in science. Including astrophysics and climatology.
So l am not going to enter into a 'snowball fight'
I am happy be to amused at the range of possibilities.
Just google and you get a range of answers

'There are theories that volcanic eruptions are on the rise. A 2014 study found that changes in the speed of the earth's rotation, caused by factors including the gravitational pull of the sun and the moon, lead to periods of increased volcanic activity.Jun 4, 2018'

'A 2009 study found that the number of eruptions per year has gone up as the earth’s temperature has increased since the ice age.
Dec 21, 2017 - Scientists have noted volcanic eruptions tended to increase as glaciers melted. In a recent study published in Geology researchers looked at ...

The Global Volcanism Program does not see any evidence that volcanic activity is actually increasing. Data about eruptions has been compiled by the Smithsonian since 1968 in order to provide context for global volcanism

etc etc blah blah blah
Common sense tells me that the rate of vulcanism will change from time to time. and if it does , there must be reasons why.

Whether you believe in order by cycles ,or chaos theory, or a combo of both. Changes to volcanism variables will determine output one would think.

If you crack the egg shell. The yolk spills out

How many ways can you make an egg shell crack?
or
poke how can you make the yolk crack the shell
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#1499566 - 27/05/2019 19:31 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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More than one way to skin a cat, as it were.
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#1499574 - 27/05/2019 20:45 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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Registered: 01/05/2014
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Winds and atmospheric pressure affecting Earth's rotational speed.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/03/030306075514.htm

Now if CR was found to be a factor influencing wind directions and atmospheric pressure (via changes in atmospheric chemistry) than possibility of effects on seismic and volcanism activity is not so out there.


Edited by Knot (27/05/2019 20:47)
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#1499577 - 27/05/2019 21:05 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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There is another link at the bottom of the page at the site I just posted. It concerns plankton being a climate driver. Not spaceweather, but sure doe show that the list of suspected climate drivers is growing. And if freeking plankton can do it, than long live CR
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#1499581 - 27/05/2019 21:50 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Knot]
marakai Offline
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Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: Knot
There is another link at the bottom of the page at the site I just posted. It concerns plankton being a climate driver. Not spaceweather, but sure doe show that the list of suspected climate drivers is growing. And if freeking plankton can do it, than long live CR


I think Plankton, along with every other organism on Earth would be a response to, rather than a causation of climate drivers Knot.
You need an environment for the life form to exist in first and foremost. The norm for Earth over nearly all of it's past has been Glacial ice age conditions which are not very conducive to Plankton swarms/blooms. You would need ideal conditions for such to exist for plankton to affect the climate in any substantial way.
So far as I am aware such conditions have not existed since Iron Oxide's were laid down over vast areas of WA and
South Africa 2.5 billion years ago when photosynthesis first came about and the planet got it's first birth of an oxygen rich atmosphere.
Plankton now is a seasonal phenomena reliant upon nutrient deposited upon the Oceans surface and also temperature reliant as well. Also by a quirk of nature it also is reliant upon Co2 levels as well.... funny how things work huh?

Plankton gave us Iron Oxide, Plant's gave us Coal. We dig up both and process them to create civilization and also Co2 which feed's both Plant's and Plankton.

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2016/carbon-dioxide-fertilization-greening-earth

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#1499584 - 27/05/2019 23:02 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Knot]
marakai Offline
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Registered: 05/01/2006
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Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: Knot
Good point about 'apparent'. A trend may look like it is increasing, but in reality it may only be the reporting of an event that appears to create a trend.
If there were a 'real' uptick in volcanic activity that could be causally linked to an increase in cosmic radiation it would be intriguing. But if no real uptick despite increased CR than the hypothesis is dead.


I agree with that Knot, But I'd also add that with all of the recent evidence of the Sun affecting Geological event's on Earth such as has been shown with Earthquakes over the last few years, then there is no reason that other geological events such as vulcanism should not also be expected as well.
Earthquakes are directly connected to Tectonic activity, Volcano's are a direct result of Tectonics.
There is a reason that NASA and many others are investigating the effects of solar activity on Earthquakes right now. There is a direct link...

I'm continually dumbfounded by the inability of seemingly well educated people to accept that there might well be things that we don't yet fully understand as a species which affect all aspects of life on our planet.

Plate tectonics itself was scoffed at as a subject by the mainstream as recently as 1950 up till the 1970's.

Space Weather is a subject that all major scientific organizations are investigating and spending big dollars on right now. You only have to look at recent headlines to do with the shifting of the Magnetic North Pole to realize that it is a thing. Dig a little deeper and scratch the surface a little more and you find that there is whole world of stuff that is never reported in the mainstream media.

Everyone reading this post is way ahead of the norm when it comes to the average knowledge of "weather" and what to expect.

The difference is though is where you get your expectations from. 30, 20, 10 years ago compared to now if you are honest with yourself are way out of whack with the current reality.

Just in Aus alone we have had Monster El Nino's that never happened and Moderate's that never occurred either over the last few seasons despite the supposed best of the Best well paid forecasters at BOM.

Question any of that though and you are cast into the chasm of either lunatic or the favoured denier label, argue back with facts and alternatives and you get a deluge of activist's calling for the closure of your thread that questions the veracity of their claims despite the evidence provided. And if you dare hurt anyone's feelings along the way, God help you.

20 years ago "Snowfall would become a very rare and exciting event, Children just aren’t going to know what snow is,” .

Nekt Minute
Quote:
The cold snap could mark an early start for the NSW snow season, with more than 20cm of snow falling in Perisher overnight.

https://www.news.com.au/technology/envir...f31b7867eca4b0a


I can provide multiple examples of Solar effects upon our Planet Earth which directly affect our weather, effects which Nasa just alone are investigating right now.

Can anyone provide any proven effect of Human Caused effect upon our weather after at least thirty years of looking for it ?

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#1499655 - 29/05/2019 09:24 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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Registered: 01/05/2014
Posts: 2842
I see no reason to divorce earthquake activity from volcanic. They are intertwined in many places along fault lines and plate zones. Should there be a causal link between solar flares and quakes, why not volcanoes too. Changes in mag field inducing changes in magma and plate tectonics. All worthy of enquiry.


Edited by Knot (29/05/2019 09:27)
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#1499676 - 29/05/2019 12:59 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
CeeBee Offline
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Registered: 25/02/2012
Posts: 2654
Originally Posted By: marakai

Can anyone provide any proven effect of Human Caused effect upon our weather after at least thirty years of looking for it ?


Yes, one example of Human Caused effect upon our weather is Deforestation

https://www.livescience.com/27692-deforestation.html
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#1499707 - 29/05/2019 18:15 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: CeeBee]
marakai Offline
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Registered: 05/01/2006
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Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: CeeBee
Originally Posted By: marakai

Can anyone provide any proven effect of Human Caused effect upon our weather after at least thirty years of looking for it ?


Yes, one example of Human Caused effect upon our weather is Deforestation

https://www.livescience.com/27692-deforestation.html



So cheap Electricity could solve half that problem straight up hey?.

Causes

Quote:
There are many causes of deforestation. The WWF& reports that half of the trees illegally removed from forests are used as fuel.
https://www.livescience.com/27692-deforestation.html

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#1499708 - 29/05/2019 18:26 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Knot]
marakai Offline
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Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: Knot
I see no reason to divorce earthquake activity from volcanic. They are intertwined in many places along fault lines and plate zones. Should there be a causal link between solar flares and quakes, why not volcanoes too. Changes in mag field inducing changes in magma and plate tectonics. All worthy of enquiry.


Yes you are correct with all that Knot, I think though that Solar activity gives a general push in strength and effect. Accurate Earthquake predictions based on solar activity are generally far more accurate with >7 quakes than with lower strength quakes...Why ? Who knows, but for now that is just how things work.

As things progress I would expect the predictive skill of those dabbling in the field to fine tune their techniques and deliver ever more accurate forecast's.

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#1499726 - 29/05/2019 20:41 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Delta-T Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 21/01/2011
Posts: 203
Loc: Peachester
Accurate Earthquake predictions based on solar activity are generally far more accurate with...

Aw, c'mon. "Can you predict earthquakes? No."

https://www.usgs.gov/faqs/can-you-predic...cience_products

"blah, blah, ever more accurate forecast's"

This is a joke isn't it?

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#1499787 - 30/05/2019 23:25 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
amphetamarine Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 18/03/2004
Posts: 363
Loc: Cairns
are celestial bodies of fact or fiction. would we exist with no sun.

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#1499788 - 30/05/2019 23:35 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Delta-T]
marakai Offline
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Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
You really do have poor comprehension skill's Delta.


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#1499789 - 30/05/2019 23:36 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: amphetamarine]
marakai Offline
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Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2270
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Ummm, No we would not.

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#1499790 - 31/05/2019 00:26 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
amphetamarine Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 18/03/2004
Posts: 363
Loc: Cairns
Did sun make the earthquake.

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#1499791 - 31/05/2019 00:42 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: amphetamarine]
marakai Offline
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Registered: 05/01/2006
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Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: amphetamarine
Did sun make the earthquake.


Which one ? .... Shakes head and walks away....

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#1499792 - 31/05/2019 00:47 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
amphetamarine Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 18/03/2004
Posts: 363
Loc: Cairns
All of em. hang ya head while it shakes

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#1499796 - 31/05/2019 06:18 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 01/05/2014
Posts: 2842
Originally Posted By: Delta-T


Aw, c'mon. "Can you predict earthquakes? No."


Things are moving in the right direction. Whilst not predictive, it does show advances in understanding of earthquake processes. Hopefully AI will be able to turn reactive into predictive. Enough to buy some more time. https://m.phys.org/news/2019-05-scientists-early-moment-megaquake.html
It will be interesting if one day, the predictive capacity turns out to be sourced from what is happening in the magnetic field.
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#1499822 - 31/05/2019 12:27 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Delta-T Offline
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Registered: 21/01/2011
Posts: 203
Loc: Peachester
Marakai: "Yes you are correct with all that Knot, I think though that Solar activity gives a general push in strength and effect. Accurate Earthquake predictions based on solar activity are generally far more accurate with >7 quakes than with lower strength quakes...Why ? Who knows, but for now that is just how things work."

"Far more accurate...? LMFAO. I comprehend how full of @#it you are.

Which part of "not predictive" do you not understand?

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#1500261 - 06/06/2019 10:20 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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Registered: 01/05/2014
Posts: 2842
Interesting new research suggesting the regularity of solar cycles and changes in sun's magnetic field linked to tidal forces created by Venus, Earth and Jupiter . These tidal forces, even at maximum during alignments ( every 11.07 years) were thought to be too weak for inducing changes deeper in the sun. However Tayler oscillations are thought to be an indirect means by which the tidal forces affect the solar dynamo.
http://www.spacedaily.com/m/reports/The_sun_follows_the_rhythm_of_the_planets_999.html


Edited by Knot (06/06/2019 10:22)
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#1500804 - 17/06/2019 23:44 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
amphetamarine Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 18/03/2004
Posts: 363
Loc: Cairns
Does the moon have gravity?

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#1500828 - 18/06/2019 19:00 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Petros Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 30/12/2002
Posts: 8071
Loc: Maffra, Central Gippsland, Vi...
Only an idiot would ignore the spate of quakes/volcano activity over the past 6 months without being open to any question along the lines of "why now?".

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#1500833 - 19/06/2019 07:18 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Petros]
Eigerwand Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 28/05/2012
Posts: 526
Originally Posted By: Petros
Only an idiot would ignore the spate of quakes/volcano activity over the past 6 months without being open to any question along the lines of "why now?".


Has there been more? Or is there just more measurements and reporting of events? Is there a data set that would actually allow you to workout some kind of average level of activity?

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#1500844 - 19/06/2019 10:54 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Delta-T Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 21/01/2011
Posts: 203
Loc: Peachester


Edited by Delta-T (19/06/2019 10:56)

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#1500847 - 19/06/2019 12:48 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Eigerwand Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 28/05/2012
Posts: 526
Haha! I thought as much!

Even if there was some kind of pattern, imagine the timescale such a pattern would plat out on!!! 6months would be NOTHING on such a time scale.

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#1500849 - 19/06/2019 13:36 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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Registered: 01/05/2014
Posts: 2842
Reporting of geophysical and climate/ meteorological events has increased due to technology, coverage and increased observation, both eyewitness and purposeful data collection. Bearing in mind that instrumental data collection on a global scale is relatively recent. A blink of an eye in geological time. It is therefore obvious that 'upticks' in any data are probably based on this increased observational spatial spread, increased human geographical migration and technological evolution
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#1500851 - 19/06/2019 14:22 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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Registered: 01/05/2014
Posts: 2842
I wonder if this thread should be in the General Science section. Seems it's natural home to me due to the intersectionality of stuff that is brought up eg Volcanism. Tectonics and climate are intrinsically connected. Would a large increase in the sun's luminosity and simultaneous major volcanic activity result in a heavier atmosphere that limits the mantle heat from escaping through the crust and 'locking' the tectonic plates. A study of Venus published in 2008 suggests it is feasible, if the Earth's surface warmed by 100 degrees fahrenheit over a couple of million years. Note this has nothing to do with AGW. https://m.phys.org/news/2008-05-hot-climate-plate-tectonics.html
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#1500918 - 20/06/2019 18:34 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Knot]
Seina Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 27/08/2003
Posts: 7770
Loc: Adelaide Hills
Originally Posted By: Knot
I wonder if this thread should be in the General Science section.

I think all threads claiming to present science can go in a science section, with all such threads requiring evidence and testable ideas -- based on what science is about -- otherwise they get closed.

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#1501211 - 26/06/2019 01:59 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
amphetamarine Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 18/03/2004
Posts: 363
Loc: Cairns
Science is based on having an open mind.

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#1501512 - 01/07/2019 22:57 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
amphetamarine Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 18/03/2004
Posts: 363
Loc: Cairns
data input has increased since we came online.

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