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#1482409 - 23/12/2018 07:20 Weather Zone spreading fake weather
GOODOLD4306 Offline
Cloud Gazer

Registered: 04/12/2017
Posts: 10
Loc: Young NSW AU
Weatherzone's at it again, pushing the global warming theory. Take last Thursday 20 Dec at Young NSW. The hottest part of the day was at 5pm when the BOM recorded 37.7, my humble little weather station recorded 37.1 but Weatherzone recorded 40.0... This is not the first time something like this has happened with weatherzone upping the temperature allegedly recorded. Come on weatherzone it's about time you started being honest. If you want to be recognised as a reputable organisation start doing the right thing.

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#1482411 - 23/12/2018 07:58 Re: Weather Zone spreading fake weather [Re: GOODOLD4306]
Funkyseefunkydo Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 30/04/2007
Posts: 892
Loc: East Lake Macquarie
Hahahahaha!

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#1482428 - 23/12/2018 10:23 Re: Weather Zone spreading fake weather [Re: GOODOLD4306]
Raindammit Offline
Weatherzone Moderator

Registered: 14/02/2002
Posts: 13345
Loc: Townsville & Bilyana NQ
Ummm

Young reached 40C on 20/12/18, according to the BOM.

http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/dwo/IDCJDW2153.latest.shtml
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Belgian Gardens, Townsville NQ
Bilyana FNQ

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#1482437 - 23/12/2018 11:57 Re: Weather Zone spreading fake weather [Re: GOODOLD4306]
GOODOLD4306 Offline
Cloud Gazer

Registered: 04/12/2017
Posts: 10
Loc: Young NSW AU
Raindammit, I just checked that mate, then went back to the progressive four day observations and it still shows there, that the maximum temperature for 20/12/18 WAS 37.7C. It's a conspiracy......I think.....and it looks like I need a coffee.....

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#1482438 - 23/12/2018 12:10 Re: Weather Zone spreading fake weather [Re: GOODOLD4306]
logansi Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 17/11/2014
Posts: 1396
Loc: Adelaide S.A/Portland Vic
BOM and weatherzone daily observations give a temperature at each 30min interval, the maximum temperature of 40.0 occurred in between observations.
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#1482446 - 23/12/2018 14:09 Re: Weather Zone spreading fake weather [Re: GOODOLD4306]
GOODOLD4306 Offline
Cloud Gazer

Registered: 04/12/2017
Posts: 10
Loc: Young NSW AU
Logansi,
The temp(BOM)4pm 36.8C, My weather obs 36.5C.
The BOM temp 5pm 37.7C Me 37.1C
The BOM temp 6pm 37.2C Me 36.8C
Your not going to try and tell me it went up to 40.0C for a period of time then cooled. The temperature had reached its max at 5pm. My temp obs were cooling from 5pm. Remember the Goulburn incident last winter when Goulburn recorded -10.8C but because that was a record and aginst global warming ideology the BOM rounded it up to 10.0C..... Think about it.

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#1482470 - 23/12/2018 18:41 Re: Weather Zone spreading fake weather [Re: GOODOLD4306]
retired weather man Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 01/07/2007
Posts: 5142
Loc: Wynnum
BoM instrumentation records data continuously, but publishes data roughly 2 mins, 10 mins or 30 mins, depending on users needs.

And temperature does change rapidly. In Townsville I personally saw changes of 5C+ a few times, the best being a 7C rise in 20 minutes in winter with the land breeze affect at night.

Also BoM weather station sitings are governed by a world standard for consistency. Almost all home based weather stations, yours and mine included would not adhere to the guidelines.

All places have micro climates so even 2 official stations spaced a kilometre apart would show differences. BoM data is for longer term uses, so the one station is seen as representative of the surrounding area. ( BoM definition ).

If the surrounding area gets built out, or a new road is built nearby then the site is changed. BoM then does comparison checks between the 2 sites for at least a couple of years before adjustments MIGHT be made.
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Wyn Nth 2019-Jan11.4(150),Feb47.0(152),Mar285.6(136),Apr97.0(92),May37.4(89),Jun30.0(77)YTD508.4(696)

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#1482474 - 23/12/2018 18:52 Re: Weather Zone spreading fake weather [Re: GOODOLD4306]
ozone doug Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 06/11/2006
Posts: 1923
Loc: Roma SW QLD Eye to the West...
RWM is correct. Getting a home weather station correct is nearly impossible .
I have done the standard Stevenson screen setup and still have trouble getting the correct temps at times. And micro climates lol.
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BOM Stormspotter G0388 Roma S W Queensland Formerly Redcliffe.

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#1482477 - 23/12/2018 19:44 Re: Weather Zone spreading fake weather [Re: GOODOLD4306]
Nerd65 Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 30/01/2011
Posts: 445
Loc: Cranbrook, Townsville
There does seem to be something slightly odd about that maximum reading. The realtime 10 minute observation at 5:10pm on 20/12 states the maximum of 40.0 as occurring at 5:10pm whereas the observed temperature at 5:10pm was stated as 38.0. This is the highest 10 min. observation for the day.

Possible explanations could be data processing errors, timing errors, noise picked up by the sensor wiring or the sensor being so fast that it has reacted to a large short term fluctuation of two degrees that has lasted for less than a minute. This behaviour is something I alluded to recently on the North Queensland thread during the "heat wave".

Below is a plain text version of the observations around the time/date concerned from the realtime page at: http://www.bom.gov.au/nsw/observations/nswall.shtml?

Young, 20/04:10pm, 37.5, 36.8, 15.3, 26, 14.3, WSW, 13, 17, 7, 9, 1001.3, 0.0, 18.4 05:10am, 38.2 04:02pm, N, 39 12:56pm, 21 12:56pm
Young, 20/04:20pm, 37.3, 34.8, 14.0, 25, 14.7, W, 20, 26, 11, 14, 1001.0, 0.0, 18.4 05:10am, 38.2 04:02pm, N, 39 12:56pm, 21 12:56pm
Young, 20/04:30pm, 36.9, 34.1, 14.2, 25, 14.3, WSW, 22, 39, 12, 21, 999.2, 0.0, 18.4 05:10am, 38.2 04:02pm, WSW, 39 04:26pm, 21 04:26pm
Young, 20/04:40pm, 37.3, 35.7, 14.0, 25, 14.7, WSW, 15, 20, 8, 11, 1000.5, 0.0, 18.4 05:10am, 38.2 04:02pm, WSW, 39 04:26pm, 21 04:26pm
Young, 20/04:50pm, 37.7, 36.2, 14.3, 25, 14.8, SW, 15, 20, 8, 11, 1000.3, 0.0, 18.4 05:10am, 38.2 04:48pm, WSW, 39 04:26pm, 21 04:26pm
Young, 20/05:00pm, 37.7, 35.8, 14.3, 25, 14.8, WSW, 17, 30, 9, 16, 998.4, 0.0, 18.4 05:10am, 38.2 04:48pm, WSW, 39 04:26pm, 21 04:26pm
Young, 20/05:10pm, 38.0, 36.9, 15.2, 26, 14.6, WSW, 15, 20, 8, 11, 999.9, 0.0, 18.4 05:10am, 40.0 05:10pm, WSW, 39 04:26pm, 21 04:26pm
Young, 20/05:20pm, 37.7, 33.2, 13.7, 24, 15.1, SW, 30, 43, 16, 23, 999.8, 0.0, 18.4 05:10am, 40.0 05:10pm, SW, 43 05:20pm, 23 05:20pm
Young, 20/05:30pm, 37.0, 33.4, 13.1, 24, 14.9, WSW, 24, 37, 13, 20, 998.1, 0.0, 18.4 05:10am, 40.0 05:10pm, SW, 43 05:20pm, 23 05:20pm
Young, 20/05:40pm, 37.2, 34.8, 12.6, 23, 15.2, W, 17, 20, 9, 11, 999.7, 0.0, 18.4 05:10am, 40.0 05:10pm, SW, 43 05:20pm, 23 05:20pm
Young, 20/05:50pm, 37.2, 34.0, 11.9, 22, 15.5, WSW, 20, 24, 11, 13, 999.7, 0.0, 18.4 05:10am, 40.0 05:10pm, SW, 43 05:20pm, 23 05:20pm
Young, 20/06:00pm, 37.0, 34.9, 13.7, 25, 14.6, WSW, 17, 28, 9, 15, 998.2, 0.0, 36.9 06:00pm, 40.0 05:10pm, SW, 43 05:20pm, 23 05:20pm
Young, 20/06:10pm, 36.4, 32.5, 14.4, 27, 13.9, SW, 28, 35, 15, 19, 1000.0, 0.0, 36.3 06:10pm, 40.0 05:10pm, SW, 43 05:20pm, 23 05:20pm
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Linux is Star Trek; Windows is Star Wars.

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#1482479 - 23/12/2018 20:10 Re: Weather Zone spreading fake weather [Re: GOODOLD4306]
Blair Trewin Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 13/07/2001
Posts: 3974
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
It's not unheard of for temperature to spike by a degree or more within a minute, particularly on hot days in arid climates. There was a particularly striking example in Alice Springs in November 2014 when the temperature spiked up by 4 degrees within a minute - our initial assumption was that this was an instrument fault but the peak temperature was backed up by a manual maximum thermometer.

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#1482480 - 23/12/2018 20:11 Re: Weather Zone spreading fake weather [Re: GOODOLD4306]
retired weather man Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 01/07/2007
Posts: 5142
Loc: Wynnum
Basic equipment exposure criteria is as follows -

Temperature 4 to 5 feet ( closer to 4 ) above ground and shaded.

For frost purposes, a minimum temperature of 2deg ( at 4 feet AGL ) is defined as a frost. I have a thermometer also exposed on the ground for my daily reports, and in winter there is often a 2 to 3 degree difference between the 4 foot and ground thermometers. Summer sees closer readings and in rain the readings can be close to identical.

Rain 1 foot above ground for the rim of the gauge. The higher the gauge above ground, the lower the rainfall.

Herein lies the first problem. Almost all home weather stations have rain and temp/humidity sensors together and cannot be separated in height.

Many home based units are up on fences, high poles and even roof mounted, and in todays claustrophobic living conditions the required distances away from buildings are not met..

Site should be a minimum of twice the distance, and preferably 4 times the distance away from an object. For instance for a 10 metre building, temps and rain should be 40 metres away.

Wind is even more critical. Wind should be taken 10 metres above ground and at least 10 times the distance from the nearest object. In other words if there is a 100 metre hill, the wind should be measured at least 1km away.

With many buildings now coated in glass, the reflected heat means temperature readings should be further away again.

This is why a majority of sites are on airport fringes, well away from obstructions and roads, runways etc.

It is almost impossible for city temperatures to be fully accurate not only with siting but also with all that heat being continually GENERATED by human living - air cons, dryers, dishwashers ( all high KW usage and heat output ), plus glass, bitumen, and cars - and the list goes on.

I published the above in the hope that it might be of assistance to the person who started this thread and hope also that this person takes meteorology seriously.


Edited by retired weather man (23/12/2018 20:13)
_________________________
Wyn Nth 2019-Jan11.4(150),Feb47.0(152),Mar285.6(136),Apr97.0(92),May37.4(89),Jun30.0(77)YTD508.4(696)

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#1482481 - 23/12/2018 20:18 Re: Weather Zone spreading fake weather [Re: GOODOLD4306]
Foehn Correspondent Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 01/11/2001
Posts: 675
Loc: Bardon 4065
RWM / Blair,

I take it that BOM equipment is subject to regular checks and calibrations to ensure that they are reading correctly?
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#1482483 - 23/12/2018 20:26 Re: Weather Zone spreading fake weather [Re: Blair Trewin]
Nerd65 Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 30/01/2011
Posts: 445
Loc: Cranbrook, Townsville
Thanks Blair.

A question: At stations were both automated and manual observations are made which one is used for the historically recorded maximum and minimum temperature?
_________________________
Linux is Star Trek; Windows is Star Wars.

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#1482488 - 23/12/2018 21:18 Re: Weather Zone spreading fake weather [Re: GOODOLD4306]
Blair Trewin Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 13/07/2001
Posts: 3974
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
At stations which had both, the automated instruments became the primary instruments for max/min temperature as of 1 November 1996. (We've analysed the places where we do have both and found no evidence of any significant difference between the automated and manual measurements where they are both in the same place; one advantage here is that we kept the same type of screen when we moved to automated measurements, which a lot of countries didn't).

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#1482489 - 23/12/2018 21:19 Re: Weather Zone spreading fake weather [Re: Foehn Correspondent]
Blair Trewin Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 13/07/2001
Posts: 3974
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: Foehn Correspondent
RWM / Blair,

I take it that BOM equipment is subject to regular checks and calibrations to ensure that they are reading correctly?


Yes. Usually 1-2 times per year.

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#1482492 - 23/12/2018 21:59 Re: Weather Zone spreading fake weather [Re: retired weather man]
Homer Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 16/06/2007
Posts: 6288
Loc: Dural
Originally Posted By: retired weather man
Basic equipment exposure criteria is as follows -

Temperature 4 to 5 feet ( closer to 4 ) above ground and shaded.

For frost purposes, a minimum temperature of 2deg ( at 4 feet AGL ) is defined as a frost. I have a thermometer also exposed on the ground for my daily reports, and in winter there is often a 2 to 3 degree difference between the 4 foot and ground thermometers. Summer sees closer readings and in rain the readings can be close to identical.

Rain 1 foot above ground for the rim of the gauge. The higher the gauge above ground, the lower the rainfall.

Herein lies the first problem. Almost all home weather stations have rain and temp/humidity sensors together and cannot be separated in height.

Many home based units are up on fences, high poles and even roof mounted, and in todays claustrophobic living conditions the required distances away from buildings are not met..

Site should be a minimum of twice the distance, and preferably 4 times the distance away from an object. For instance for a 10 metre building, temps and rain should be 40 metres away.

Wind is even more critical. Wind should be taken 10 metres above ground and at least 10 times the distance from the nearest object. In other words if there is a 100 metre hill, the wind should be measured at least 1km away.

With many buildings now coated in glass, the reflected heat means temperature readings should be further away again.

This is why a majority of sites are on airport fringes, well away from obstructions and roads, runways etc.

It is almost impossible for city temperatures to be fully accurate not only with siting but also with all that heat being continually GENERATED by human living - air cons, dryers, dishwashers ( all high KW usage and heat output ), plus glass, bitumen, and cars - and the list goes on.

I published the above in the hope that it might be of assistance to the person who started this thread and hope also that this person takes meteorology seriously.


Fantastic post, and thanks for taking the time to do so.
All of what you have said makes perfect logical sense and I'm not sure why anyone would doubt the reasoning, other than through ignorance.
Blair's explanations also makes perfect sense.

I'm comfortable in believing scientific instruments and the reasons given by experienced and well credentialed meteorologists and climate analysts for possible anomalies than some blow in on a public forum suggesting an agenda for such anomalies.


Edited by Homer (23/12/2018 22:01)

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#1482514 - 24/12/2018 08:41 Re: Weather Zone spreading fake weather [Re: GOODOLD4306]
retired weather man Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 01/07/2007
Posts: 5142
Loc: Wynnum
Thanks Homer. During my 30 year tenure with BoM, instrumentation and radar/radiosonde work were my speciality.
_________________________
Wyn Nth 2019-Jan11.4(150),Feb47.0(152),Mar285.6(136),Apr97.0(92),May37.4(89),Jun30.0(77)YTD508.4(696)

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#1482518 - 24/12/2018 09:19 Re: Weather Zone spreading fake weather [Re: GOODOLD4306]
kizz Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 11/02/2002
Posts: 2200
Loc: Beacon Hill, Sydney 152m asl
This is brilliant. A troll post hijacked by a sensible discussion.

I have always wanted a PWS since my days sitting in the old Macquarie University weather enclosure taking manual readings at regular intervals. This was all day so I had plenty of time to dream about electronic weather instruments. Showing my age.

The positioning of the sensors was something I agonised over given the less than ideal suburban backyard options.

One issue I couldn't understand with Davis was the solar/UV sensor being built in to the rain/temp instrument. It would make more sense to have that separated so it could be mounted on the roof. Mounted on the same pole as the anemometer.

RWM might know: I have noticed that Sydney Airport never reports a full day of sunshine hours when a completely cloudless day occurs. Is this due to the instrument not detecting the sun in the 20-30 minutes from dawn and dusk?


Edited by kizz (24/12/2018 09:23)
Edit Reason: hyperdimensional wormholes
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#1482527 - 24/12/2018 10:13 Re: Weather Zone spreading fake weather [Re: GOODOLD4306]
GOODOLD4306 Offline
Cloud Gazer

Registered: 04/12/2017
Posts: 10
Loc: Young NSW AU
Gentlemen,
Thank you for all your replies and information. I hope that I'm not the "TROLL", Kizz, just someone trying to understand, why, even BOM records state a recorded maximun temperature its often ramped up to an unrecorded temperature and published as being the maximun temperature. If you look at NERD65's post, 5.10pm was posted as the MAXIMUM temperature for Young on that day at 38.0C. Its there in black and white. Young does not suffer from micro temperature bursts unlike areas of large metropolitan centres surrounded by concrete, tar and glass. Young is on the western side of the Great Dividing range it is noted as the hilltops region of south west NSW and not coastal or tropical. Tony Abbott had a concerns about BOM supplying misleading information. I think we should all start questioning and asking why......
Merry Christmas to you all

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#1482545 - 24/12/2018 12:10 Re: Weather Zone spreading fake weather [Re: GOODOLD4306]
Funkyseefunkydo Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 30/04/2007
Posts: 892
Loc: East Lake Macquarie
You believe tony Abbott over scientists?

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