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#1498986 - 15/05/2019 10:49 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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Registered: 01/05/2014
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Loc: Toronto N.S.W
Follow this flow chart.
Solar Magnetic field weakening >Increase in Gamma Ray showerings on Earth>increase in lightning>increase in ozone in 5 - 13 km Troposphere>increase radiative ozone forcing from surface to 13km >warming.
Cooling being the opposite
Solar magnetic field strengthening>less Gamma ray showers reaching Earth> less lightning>less ozone in 5-13km Troposphere> decreased radiative ozone forcing from surface to 13km>cooling

The spanner in the works for this simple flow chart is changes in Earth's own magnetic field that may interfere with ozone generation or destruction regardless of a warming or cooling trend and vulcanism activity


Edited by Knot (15/05/2019 10:55)
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#1498988 - 15/05/2019 10:59 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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https://www.seas.harvard.edu/news/2017/0...h-s-ozone-layer

Major vulcanism can create more ozone destructive chlorine forms but on the otherhand could increase ozone thickness. Destruction or enhancing depending on levels of bromocarbons in the atmosphere at the time of the eruption


Edited by Knot (15/05/2019 11:09)
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#1498991 - 15/05/2019 11:16 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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The chemical makeup of the eruption itself having a greater or lesser impact on ozone ie according to previous link, if eruption puts more Hcl into the stratosphere, the destruction of ozone would be enhanced.
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#1499009 - 15/05/2019 16:51 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Delta-T Offline
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Registered: 21/01/2011
Posts: 164
Loc: Peachester
Is there any evidence space weather affects atmospheric CO2?

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#1499012 - 15/05/2019 18:24 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
crikey Offline
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Ultra violet space weather radiation reacts with both CO2 and Ozone in the stratosphere. They have a role in regulating stratospheric temperature, which teleconnects to a number of climate drivers

Here is a more detailed time series of ozone in the upper layer.

If ozone and CO2increase, the stratosphere warms l believe


https://www.researchgate.net/figure/a-Ti..._fig4_224779148
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#1499022 - 15/05/2019 19:34 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: crikey]
Seina Offline
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Registered: 27/08/2003
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Originally Posted By: crikey
Ultra violet space weather radiation reacts with both CO2 and Ozone in the stratosphere.

I cannot find a reference linking CO2 and the Chapman cycle, do you know of one?

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#1499024 - 15/05/2019 20:00 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Seina]
Seina Offline
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Originally Posted By: Seina
Originally Posted By: crikey
Ultra violet space weather radiation reacts with both CO2 and Ozone in the stratosphere.

I cannot find a reference linking CO2 and the Chapman cycle, do you know of one?

Actually scrap that question.

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#1499031 - 15/05/2019 21:50 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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Registered: 01/05/2014
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A study in 2014 indicated that UV had a role in creating oxygen directly from co2 with out any biological input in the early Earth atmosphere.
UV is a big part of solar flares, particularly x flares. One would think, in light of the study that spaceweather, of which UV is a part, is still creating oxygen from co2 Whether this UV oxygen creation process has affected climate in any way is a big question, but it at least does show that co2 molecules can be split apart by radiation.

https://www.livescience.com/48125-oxygen-made-from-carbon-dioxide.html


Edited by Knot (15/05/2019 21:59)
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#1499034 - 16/05/2019 00:21 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Knot]
marakai Offline
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Registered: 05/01/2006
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Originally Posted By: Knot
A study in 2014 indicated that UV had a role in creating oxygen directly from co2 with out any biological input in the early Earth atmosphere.
UV is a big part of solar flares, particularly x flares. One would think, in light of the study that spaceweather, of which UV is a part, is still creating oxygen from co2 Whether this UV oxygen creation process has affected climate in any way is a big question, but it at least does show that co2 molecules can be split apart by radiation.

https://www.livescience.com/48125-oxygen-made-from-carbon-dioxide.html



Quote:

Chemistry of Ozone Formation
Ozone forms readily in the stratosphere as incoming ultraviolet radiation breaks molecular oxygen (two atoms) into atomic oxygen (a single atom). In that process, oxygen absorbs much of the ultraviolet radiation and prevents it from reaching the Earth’s surface where we live.

In the language of a simplified chemical formula,
O2 + sunlight yields O + O
When an electrically excited free oxygen atom encounters an oxygen molecule, they may bond to form ozone.
O + O2 yields O3
Destruction of ozone in the stratosphere takes place as quickly as formation of ozone, because the chemical is so reactive. Sunlight can readily split ozone into an oxygen molecule and an individual oxygen atom.
O3 + sunlight yields O2 + O
When an electronically excited oxygen atom encounters an ozone molecule, they may combine to form two molecules of oxygen.
O + O3 yields O2 + O2
The ozone formation-destruction process in the stratosphere occurs rapidly and constantly, maintaining an ozone layer.

In the troposphere near the Earth’s surface, ozone forms through the splitting of molecules by sunlight as it does in the stratosphere. However in the troposphere, nitrogen dioxide, not molecular oxygen, provides the primary source of the oxygen atoms required for ozone formation. Sunlight splits nitrogen dioxide into nitric oxide and an oxygen atom.
NO2 + sunlight yields NO + O
A single oxygen atom then combines with an oxygen molecule to produce ozone.
O + O2 yields O3
Ozone then reacts readily with nitric oxide to yield nitrogen dioxide and oxygen.
NO + O3 yields NO2 + O2
The process described above results in no net gain in ozone. Concentrations occur in higher amounts in the troposphere than these reactions alone account for. In the 1950s, chemists discovered that two additional chemical constitutents of the troposphere contribute to ozone formation. These constituents are nitrogen oxides and volatile organic compounds, and they have both natural and industrial sources.

Nitrogen oxides (NOx) Nitric oxide and nitrogen dioxide are together known as NOx and often pronounced “nox.” Sources of NOx include lightning, chemical processes in soils, forest fires, and the intentional burning of vegetation to make way for new crops (biomass burning). NOx also come from smokestack and tailpipe emissions as by-products of the combustion of fossil fuels (coal, oil, and natural gas) at high temperatures. Coal-fired power plants are the primary sources of NOx in the United States. Automobiles, diesel trucks and buses, and non-road engines (farming and construction equipment, boats, and trains) also produce NOx.

Photograph of a refinery
Refineries generate large amounts of nitrogen oxides in the process of distilling gasoline and other petroleum products. Another major source is the burning of oil and gasoline in both power plants and automobiles. These nitrogen oxides form a link in a chain of chemical reactions that form ozone in the lower atmosphere. (Photograph copyright Philip Greenspun)

Volatile organic compounds (VOCs) such as hydrocarbons. “Volatile” refers to an extreme readiness to vaporize. Some plants and bacterial processes in soils emit VOCs. (The smell of a pine forest comes from a hydrocarbon called alpha-pinene.) VOCs also come from gasoline combustion and from the evaporation of liquid fuels, solvents and organic chemicals, such as those in some paints, cleaners, barbecue starter, and nail polish remover.

Photograph of a House Painter
Evaporation of solvents and organic chemicals from some kinds of paint contribute volatile organic compounds (VOCs) to the air. VOCs participate in ozone formation. (Photograph copyright Philip Greenspun)

Ozone formation in the troposphere requires both NOx and VOCs. In a highly simplified version of tropospheric ozone-forming reactions,
NOx + VOC + sunlight yields O3 (and other products)
The formula above represents several series of reactions that do not lend themselves to simple depiction. They involve the oxidation of VOCs in reactions that also involve NOx. Hydroxyl catalyzes some of the key reactions, and dozens of other chemical species take part. The result is ozone, nitrogen dioxide (available for more ozone formation), the regeneration of hydroxyl (available to catalyze more ozone formation), and some other chemical species. The specific ratio of NOx to VOC determines the efficiency of the ozone formation process.

SNIP
https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/features/ChemistrySunlight/chemistry_sunlight3.php

They don't explain what happens to the H in this explanation though!


Edited by marakai (16/05/2019 00:22)

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#1499046 - 16/05/2019 14:30 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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Registered: 01/05/2014
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Interesting read about the sun's version of Rossby waves. https://www.sciencealert.com/planet-sized-waves-have-been-found-rippling-across-our-sun
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#1499062 - 17/05/2019 08:14 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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Registered: 01/05/2014
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As we humans go about our daily business we have a general idea that the Earth rotates and orbits around that big 'gold doubloon' in the sky. But most wouldn't think about the fact that our sun orbits around the centre of the Milky Way at a speed of 230km/s. And they certainly wouldn't think about the fact that our entire solar system fluctuates up and down during the galactic year orbit ie it oscillates vertically. Each oscillation takes approx 60 and 84 million years, meaning that relative to the plane of the galactic centre, the solar system crosses galactic centre every 30-42 million years. Now it so happens that researchers studying an oxygen isotope in shells from around 500 million years ago to today ( the Phanerozoic Eon) by which they could determine seawater temperature changes. They believed the data showed a correlation with the oscillation. Bearing in mind that correlation does not necessarily mean causation. The researchers themselves point out that terrestrial processes could have messed with the correlation or even correlate themselves. None the less it is an interesting line of research https://www.nature.com/articles/srep06150


Edited by Knot (17/05/2019 08:17)
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#1499069 - 17/05/2019 12:39 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Petros Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 30/12/2002
Posts: 7967
Loc: Maffra, Central Gippsland, Vi...
Posts of late have been fascinating. Thanks all who share.

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#1499105 - 19/05/2019 01:03 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Petros]
marakai Offline
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Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2256
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: Petros
Posts of late have been fascinating. Thanks all who share.


I'm not sure that a lot who read here really appreciate what is posted Petros. Many seem to think that it is an attack on the accepted Consensus of Climate Forcing as they see it based on Consensus Values.
I see it more as a contrary option or opinion that needs a lot more discussion.

One thing that I do observe though, is a total reluctance of the obvious empirical evidence being questioned by some.

Just providing some actual Empirical evidence that questions the current status quo alone which call's into question the realism of current Climatic changes based upon Human Causes as opposed to Natural changes sends many people off into histrionic;s that they seem incapable of recovering from.

Meanwhile Science is building daily and yearly Evidence of such each and every day.

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#1499106 - 19/05/2019 01:31 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: Knot]
marakai Offline
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Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 2256
Loc: Maryfarms NQ
Originally Posted By: Knot
As we humans go about our daily business we have a general idea that the Earth rotates and orbits around that big 'gold doubloon' in the sky. But most wouldn't think about the fact that our sun orbits around the centre of the Milky Way at a speed of 230km/s. And they certainly wouldn't think about the fact that our entire solar system fluctuates up and down during the galactic year orbit ie it oscillates vertically. Each oscillation takes approx 60 and 84 million years, meaning that relative to the plane of the galactic centre, the solar system crosses galactic centre every 30-42 million years. Now it so happens that researchers studying an oxygen isotope in shells from around 500 million years ago to today ( the Phanerozoic Eon) by which they could determine seawater temperature changes. They believed the data showed a correlation with the oscillation. Bearing in mind that correlation does not necessarily mean causation. The researchers themselves point out that terrestrial processes could have messed with the correlation or even correlate themselves. None the less it is an interesting line of research https://www.nature.com/articles/srep06150


Knot, This is the sort of thing I try and teach my 13 and 10 year old Daughters. The thing is, is that they would not get this knowledge anywhere else unless they went to Uni and learnt it.... Maybe.

How many ten year old's understand the speed of our Sun around the center of our Galaxy ? or how our planet exist's and is intertwined within that orbit of it's Solar System within the Milky Way Galaxy?

Where else would they question the concept of dark matter, a theory that is yet to be proven despite the countless millions spent upon it and the concurrent amount of proof's disputing it's existence ?

Consensus Science is Proof Positive of idealized and evidenced proof of no Empirical evidence at all.

Actual Empirical Evidence is able to stand by itself and requires no Consensus.

It is repeatable and reproducible.

How many news releases or actual story's are real "Science" Today ?

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#1499107 - 19/05/2019 02:36 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
marakai Offline
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Registered: 05/01/2006
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Dark Matter or Magnetic?Electric Filament's stretching over Trillions of Km's ?

"ON THE FORMATION OF DENSITY FILAMENTS IN THE TURBULENT INTERSTELLAR MEDIUMSIYAOXU1,2, SUOQINGJI3,ANDALEXLAZARIAN1Draft version May 17, 2019ABSTRACTThis study is motivated by recent observations on ubiquitous interstellar density filaments and guided bymodern theories of compressible magnetohydrodynamic (MHD) turbulence. The interstellar turbulence shapesthe observed density structures. As the fundamental dynamics of compressible MHD turbulence, perpendicularturbulent mixing of density fluctuations entails elongated density structures aligned with the local magneticfield, accounting for low-density parallel filaments seen in diffuse atomic and molecular gas. The elongationof low-density parallel filaments depends on the turbulence anisotropy. When taking into account the partialionization, we find that the minimum width of parallel filaments in the cold neutral medium and molecularclouds is determined by the neutral-ion decoupling scale perpendicular to magnetic field. In highly supersonicMHD turbulence in molecular clouds, both low-density parallel filaments due to anisotropic turbulent mixingand high-density filaments due to shock compression exist."

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1905.06341.pdf

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#1499112 - 19/05/2019 08:41 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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Registered: 01/05/2014
Posts: 2747
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Regarding Dark Matter, new particles are suggested to comprise it, an addendum to the standard model. See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersymmetry

Bottom line. We are only scraping the surface. It could very well turn out that there are more fundamental forces than just the Gravitational of General relativity, and the three forces of quantum theory. Super particles may play outside of any rules we currently are aware of. My money though, is on new understandings of the electromagnetic force will one day reveal it to be a TOE. All unified.
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#1499114 - 19/05/2019 10:59 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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Registered: 01/05/2014
Posts: 2747
Loc: Toronto N.S.W
I don't wanna bombard with theoretical physics stuff, but attempting to unify forces and or establish additional dimensions is not new. One very interesting theory is Kaluza-Klein Theory. Which in a nutshell seeks to unify Gravity and Electromagnetism via a small 5th dimension that is curved. According to the theory, gravity effects in this small curved dimension, from an observers perspective, would appear to be electromagnetic in nature. Fascinating if ever validated.


https://plus.maths.org/content/kaluza-klein-and-their-story-fifth-dimension

What has any of this to do with spaceweather driving climate some may ask. Possibly nothing. But also possibly everything. We are intelligent ants. But ants nonetheless. And our perspective of knowledge is limited by our field of view. We learn more by ranging further. Observing and proposing. And proposing and observing. A loop. That is science.
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#1499120 - 19/05/2019 16:09 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Seina Offline
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Registered: 27/08/2003
Posts: 7748
Loc: Adelaide Hills
The Chapman Cycle in the stratosphere is central to ozone's consistent regeneration as part of the Ozone Layer.

Within the Chapman Cycle, UV-B (280 to 320 nanometre) and UV-C (200 to 280 nanometre) rays break the molecular bonds of O2 to produce oxygen ions. These oxygen ions act as catalysts to further reactions with other compounds (including Chlorine). A nanometre is 10^(-9) metres, or nm.

The O2 molecules in the upper stratosphere generally lose a single oxygen molecule with UV of wavelengths less than 240 nm (noting lower wavelengths have a higher frequency).

The ozone layer (highest concentration of O3 at about 25 km altitude) is above the altitude (within the atmosphere) where most internal system heat retained, meaning more is lost. This layer, where heat is retained, may also be known as the Planetary Boundary Layer (PBL).

https://cloud1.arc.nasa.gov/solveII/implement.html#1.1

Both O3 and CO2 absorb and emit radiation (solar or terrestrial) within specific wavelength bands. A closer observation of both the solar and terrestrial energy spectrums reveals O3 absorbs UV rays (solar, as indicated above, 0.2 to 0.4-micron range), while CO2 absorbs IR rays (terrestrial).

http://www.meteor.iastate.edu/gccourse/forcing/images/image7.gif

When we look closer at the energy spectrum for the Sun and Earth, we notice the Sun’s photospheric (surface) temperature is around 5780 Kelvin, whereas Earth’s is about 288 Kelvin.

https://www.earthonlinemedia.com/ebooks/tpe_3e/energy/nature_of_electromagnetic_radiation.html

This means that the radiation reaching the top of the Earth’s atmosphere (from the Sun) has a higher-intensity, per unit wavelength, per unit area than the energy leaving the Earth’s surface.

Additionally, wherever a gas resides in the atmosphere, whatever the nature of the gas law (PV = nRT) in that region, the gases will behave accordingly. This implies in the stratosphere, where CO2 dominates and H2O is absent, the CO2 will amplify the gas-law effects. As the stratosphere is above the PBL, within the exception of Ozone-Layer heat, loses heat, CO2 will amplify the loss of heat above the PBL.

To get even more specific, due to the rotation of the Earth’s on its axis, gases, more rather than less, have a tendency, like a spinning top, to settle at in the region of least resistance – i.e. the tropics, hence a tendency of stratospheric ozone to accumulate in tropical regions.

Lastly, due to the Hadley, Ferrell and Polar Cells Circulation system, convection and uplift occurs (mostly) near the Inter-Tropical Convergence Zone (ITCZ), while subsidence and downwelling from the upper troposphere occurs at the poles. Therefore, the tendency of any gas (Nitrogen, Oxygen, Argon, Carbon Dioxide, Chlorine, Hydrogen), would be to ascend into the tropical troposphere, move towards the poles, and descend there, which might go some way towards explaining the hole in the Ozone Layer there.


Edited by Seina (19/05/2019 16:15)

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#1499122 - 19/05/2019 17:13 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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Registered: 01/05/2014
Posts: 2747
Loc: Toronto N.S.W
Regarding ozone holes, I wonder if the fact that lightning is rare at the poles is also a factor
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#1499125 - 19/05/2019 19:56 Re: Space Weather and it's effects on Drivng the Climate. [Re: marakai]
Knot Offline
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Registered: 01/05/2014
Posts: 2747
Loc: Toronto N.S.W
Neutrinos have typically been characterised as "ghost particles" which strike and pass right thru the earth at a rate of 65 billion per square centimetre but don't interact apart from the odd collision with an atom. New research challenges this view. It has been standed thinking that radioactive decay rates follow a predictable and constant decay path trajectory. However research points to oscillations in decay rates of 11 and 12.5 cycles per year caused by solar neutrinos. Earlier data collected between 1996 and 2001 indicated an additional 9.5 cycles per year oscillation in decay. Researchers think the oscillations are related to the solar core, the solar radiative zone and a midpoint between the two.
Now if solar neutrinos are indeed not ghost particles and do interact with elements, what else may they interact with. Ions perhaps? Atmospheric chemistry? hmmmm

https://www.space.com/13747-neutrinos-particles-sun-borexino.html
https://physicsworld.com/a/do-solar-neutrinos-affect-nuclear-decay-on-earth/


Edited by Knot (19/05/2019 19:59)
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