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#152827 - 23/09/2008 18:58 Re: Financial Meltdown 2008/09
Rime Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 07/06/2001
Posts: 1444
Loc: Perth,WA
Quote:
Originally posted by NigelS:
Comon Jacob you cant really be saying Kev 747 (where the bloody hell are ya?) is any good? He reminds me of that kid at school that sneeks a look at your test answers, and Gillard my god what a joke, with these 2 nitwits running the country we are doomed, god help us if we have to go to war or we have a couple of hundred illegals turn up on the doorstep, hes just changed the law on that too saying no more detention, just let them live in the community until case is heard, what a looser.......
A good summary. The new crew are spin masters, almost like a carbon copy of what we have had in the states for a number of years. They are bunch of circus monkeys in charge of some very expensive bit of machinery and they are screaming every time they pull a lever. They know that if they do not paint the previous government as poor managers, they will have no leg to stand on once they will foul up.

I just have to laugh. Painting the previous Lib government as poor economic managers is like trying to paint Mother Theresa as a villain. It is a paint that just does not stick.

I must give credit where credit is due though. I have always said that Rudd and his circus monkeys are either lairs or complete idiots. What I have come to realise, unlike some of their state counterparts, they aren't liars (thank goodness). Lying takes an in depth amount of brain power and intellect, something they all lack. :p

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#152828 - 23/09/2008 19:06 Re: Financial Meltdown 2008/09
bigwilly Offline
Weatherzone Mod and Photog

Registered: 25/09/2002
Posts: 6543
Loc: Junee - just north of the 'Bid...
In case I'm mistaken, this topic is to discuss the current financial "meltdown" - not to discuss the pros and cons of political party.

Keep the discussion on track or it gets closed.

Will
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#152829 - 23/09/2008 19:25 Re: Financial Meltdown 2008/09
ColdFront Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 29/06/2008
Posts: 19046
Loc: The Beach.
The current meltdown has everything to do with greed in the USA and nothing to do with the current government in this country. Stop living in the past people.

Anyone who has a super policy (me for one) will be affected by it.
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#152830 - 23/09/2008 19:58 Re: Financial Meltdown 2008/09
WelloMeteo Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 1488
Loc: Wellington Point SEQ (30km eas...
If we could get away from political mudslinging (I'm afraid this situation goes far beyond the relatively insignificant powers of political powers - after all they aren't the ones really in control) and back on topic: I've been trying to get my head around the repercussions of this for "Mr and Mrs Average" (i.e. the majority of the population). If this really is a financial meltdown - and I have heard whispers of the US declaring bankruptcy at the end of their financial year - what does it mean for the average worker/mortgage owner? High unemployment? Inflated prices? Any thoughts from those with some interest/knowledge on the topic, rather than those just trying to cast blame?

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#152831 - 23/09/2008 20:10 Re: Financial Meltdown 2008/09
ColdFront Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 29/06/2008
Posts: 19046
Loc: The Beach.
What we are seeing is the adjustment that many have been forecasting on a scale that none had imagined. Even casting the housing loans crisis aside, the flow on to every nation that trades with the USA is going to be massive.

"IF" their economy goes into freefall as we are now being told it might, the ramifications for importers into the USA will be massive. The USA is the biggest market for automotive imports from Japan for example.

It will hurt a lot of people in many countries and highlights the need for countries like Australia to put our eggs in many baskets rather than just the USA.

The figure of 800 billion dollars needed to bail out the banks is staggering. It equates to some $30,000 for every man woman and child in the USA. That money is at the end of the day, tax revenue. WOW. Something has to give. Watch their economy collapse in the very near future.

I don't see any way out without massive pain.
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#152832 - 23/09/2008 20:45 Re: Financial Meltdown 2008/09
Ruckle Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 03/08/2005
Posts: 6464
Loc: Woodend VIC 579m ASL - where w...
Quote:
Originally posted by WelloMeteo:
If we could get away from political mudslinging (I'm afraid this situation goes far beyond the relatively insignificant powers of political powers - after all they aren't the ones really in control) and back on topic: I've been trying to get my head around the repercussions of this for "Mr and Mrs Average" (i.e. the majority of the population). If this really is a financial meltdown - and I have heard whispers of the US declaring bankruptcy at the end of their financial year - what does it mean for the average worker/mortgage owner? High unemployment? Inflated prices? Any thoughts from those with some interest/knowledge on the topic, rather than those just trying to cast blame?
I think in the short term you can expect the $US to begin to tank again. I mean realistically they are going to have to print money to do this. An organisation that is a trillion bucks down is going to cough up another trillion to bail others out?? Be interesting to see how it all pans out. Will be good for the $a again just in time for next spring in the US for Aussie chasers, hee hee. But seriously the main reason for this bail out (or attempted bail out) is because the Wall St mess has become a Main St mess. I mean the US equivalent to super and mutual funds etc, are all being hammered and that effects Joe Q Suburbia and they may vote in upcoming elections wink . Anyway I watch with interest.

Also I would think the effect trade wise in Australia would be indirect. If US demand greatly slows then obviously Japan and China take a hit directly. If they take a hit we take a hit...
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#152833 - 23/09/2008 21:00 Re: Financial Meltdown 2008/09
storm_chaser500 Offline
Member

Registered: 17/02/2007
Posts: 572
Loc: darwin
pedantic

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#152834 - 23/09/2008 21:08 Re: Financial Meltdown 2008/09
ColdFront Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 29/06/2008
Posts: 19046
Loc: The Beach.
Quote:
Originally posted by Ruckle:
Quote:
Originally posted by WelloMeteo:
[b] If we could get away from political mudslinging (I'm afraid this situation goes far beyond the relatively insignificant powers of political powers - after all they aren't the ones really in control) and back on topic: I've been trying to get my head around the repercussions of this for "Mr and Mrs Average" (i.e. the majority of the population). If this really is a financial meltdown - and I have heard whispers of the US declaring bankruptcy at the end of their financial year - what does it mean for the average worker/mortgage owner? High unemployment? Inflated prices? Any thoughts from those with some interest/knowledge on the topic, rather than those just trying to cast blame?
I think in the short term you can expect the $US to begin to tank again. I mean realistically they are going to have to print money to do this. An organisation that is a trillion bucks down is going to cough up another trillion to bail others out?? Be interesting to see how it all pans out. Will be good for the $a again just in time for next spring in the US for Aussie chasers, hee hee. But seriously the main reason for this bail out (or attempted bail out) is because the Wall St mess has become a Main St mess. I mean the US equivalent to super and mutual funds etc, are all being hammered and that effects Joe Q Suburbia and they may vote in upcoming elections wink . Anyway I watch with interest.

Also I would think the effect trade wise in Australia would be indirect. If US demand greatly slows then obviously Japan and China take a hit directly. If they take a hit we take a hit... [/b]
Almost Ruckle. One big loser I can see would be Holden here in Australia. Currently it is only the export market that is keeping them going and guess where their exports go!
The problem with that of course is not just for holden workers. The parts manufacturing sector that support them is already in decline due to large car sales collapsing here at home and of course the closure of mitsubishi.

If this crisis gets as bad as some are forecasting then companies like GM and ford will look at ways to reduce costs. Ford Australia have already announced a few hundred jobs will go before christmas, almost immediately after releasing a brand new model.

Both holden and ford Australia answer to their parent companies. Why flog a dead horse?
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#152835 - 23/09/2008 21:32 Re: Financial Meltdown 2008/09
WelloMeteo Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 1488
Loc: Wellington Point SEQ (30km eas...
Quote:
Also I would think the effect trade wise in Australia would be indirect. If US demand greatly slows then obviously Japan and China take a hit directly. If they take a hit we take a hit...
According to what I've heard, China has already taken a direct hit with the 1 trillion in sovereign funds it has invested in the US 'debt market'. One of the main reasons the Australian economy has been so strong is because of our mineral exports, China being one of our biggest importers (and owners . . . ) so there are bound to be repercussions there.

As for this being caused by US greed - I don't think OZ is completely out of the woods there - our banks have also been dabbling in subprime lending, and I know for a fact that private lending had arrived at a stage where money in excess of mortgage values is being offered (my Mum is a real estate agent and was horrified by it). In the 60s the average household debt to median income ratio was 25% - it is now something like 300%. I was listening to a group of economists on Monday and one of the things they agreed on was a 40% drop in Oz house values over the next 12 months. According to them, our closest comparison in terms of economic situation is . . . California!

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#152836 - 23/09/2008 21:36 Re: Financial Meltdown 2008/09
ColdFront Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 29/06/2008
Posts: 19046
Loc: The Beach.
That fall will only come if material costs fall also. For that to happen we will have to go into recession.

With fuel prices still high and consequently freight costs rising accordingly, the only way for prices to fall by 40% is indeed through a recession. Currently the price of building materials is rising almost weekly.

Hands up who "doesn't" think we will see an interest rate cut next month!
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#152837 - 23/09/2008 22:09 Re: Financial Meltdown 2008/09
NigelS Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 30/07/2004
Posts: 1323
Loc: Nairne, SA
I think if we "dont" see an interest rate cut that may be the catalyst for a recession, this will stop people spending for xmas, thus retail jobs going?

?hows my spelling ColdFront?
laugh

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#152838 - 23/09/2008 22:38 Re: Financial Meltdown 2008/09
ColdFront Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 29/06/2008
Posts: 19046
Loc: The Beach.
Ecksallant mait. I think you could safely say we will get a cut next month.
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#152839 - 24/09/2008 07:13 Re: Financial Meltdown 2008/09
Ruckle Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 03/08/2005
Posts: 6464
Loc: Woodend VIC 579m ASL - where w...
Here is an article on the Nordic experience with a "bail out". Suggests a recession in the short term is unavoidable.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=atydz8zY7Psw&refer=home

Ford in Vic have already been laying people off during the last 12-18 months
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#152840 - 24/09/2008 07:23 Re: Financial Meltdown 2008/09
Keith Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 16/12/2001
Posts: 6453
Loc: Kings Langley, NSW
I have just watched a news item in which an upwardly-mobile career woman, on an income of only $40000 a year, managed to get a $200000 home loan and credit card limit approvals totalling $10000. After servicing these debts she will have just $92 a week to live on. A copy of the story has been sent to Wayne Swan's office.

This ease with which credit can be obtained, is obscene and disgusting.

It's not only the banks' greed for profits that is an issue, it's the pushy advertising and the psychology of 'get it now and pay later' fuelled by a materialism which admittedly we all fall victim to at times. Is there no limit to our insatiable 'must have' mentality?

It doesn't surprise me that the Howard and US bashers would come out of the closet, but why not also criticise ourselves and our attitudes to possessions? If we put our money where our anti-bank mouths are, those banks wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

We only have ourselves to blame in the end. But we never learn.

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#152841 - 24/09/2008 07:38 Re: Financial Meltdown 2008/09
NigelS Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 30/07/2004
Posts: 1323
Loc: Nairne, SA
Couldnt agree more Keith. We are constantly bombarded with Harvey Norman interest free and the like, no wonder we have a debt problem, we have to have it now and we dont think of after 2 years interest free how are we going to pay for it?

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#152842 - 24/09/2008 08:10 Re: Financial Meltdown 2008/09
storm_chaser500 Offline
Member

Registered: 17/02/2007
Posts: 572
Loc: darwin
most of those payment systems require monthly payments,so its not a case of how to pay in 2 yrs or so .keep it acurate.What really bugs me is a large percentage of those who cry poor ,smoke drink ,and make unnecessary trips in the gas guzler.The hospitals are clogged up ,partly because theyre tied up with sooks with minor probs,{casualty},most of which would self cure.And a large proportion of unemployed ,and invalid pensioners ,to be honest are bludging leeches.NOTE i didnt say all .The point being ,without money being handed out to unworthy locations ,there would be millions more for worthy causes.sorry BILLIONS

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#152843 - 24/09/2008 08:59 Re: Financial Meltdown 2008/09
ColdFront Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 29/06/2008
Posts: 19046
Loc: The Beach.
Quote:
Originally posted by Keith:
I have just watched a news item in which an upwardly-mobile career woman, on an income of only $40000 a year, managed to get a $200000 home loan and credit card limit approvals totalling $10000. After servicing these debts she will have just $92 a week to live on. A copy of the story has been sent to Wayne Swan's office.

This ease with which credit can be obtained, is obscene and disgusting.

It's not only the banks' greed for profits that is an issue, it's the pushy advertising and the psychology of 'get it now and pay later' fuelled by a materialism which admittedly we all fall victim to at times. Is there no limit to our insatiable 'must have' mentality?

It doesn't surprise me that the Howard and US bashers would come out of the closet, but why not also criticise ourselves and our attitudes to possessions? If we put our money where our anti-bank mouths are, those banks wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

We only have ourselves to blame in the end. But we never learn.
Keith I agree with you up to a point. However, it was also a rather slippery transition by the banks from "they need us to we need them". Firstly ,when I was in school (a couple of years back wink ) a bank account was automatically opened in your name and the account actually grew over time.

Then came keycards and we were told they were for our convenience. Why would we not believe them? The teller machines popped up everywhere. Accessing your cash was now real easy. The nwe all got a letter in the mail offering us a credit card. The repayments and interest rates were quite low. Yeeha.

It was the next step that should have been stopped. Suddenly the banks started charging fees on everything. The bank account opened at school was eaten by fees. The credit card trap was sprung and the atms started closing down to enure you couldn't access one that belonged to your own bank, thus paying a "withdrawal fee".

But it was all too late to stop it. The employers stopped paying cash to their employees and instead it was directed into their account. Over the counter withdrawal fees were introduced for taking "your own money" out.

We don't have ourselves to blame entirely. The banks were allowed to effectively hijack our money. It is the government at the end of the day that needs to force change. I don't care which one so please stay on topic here.

You are dead right about one thing. If we took our money elsewhere they would be screwed. Unfortunately the "elsewhere" is no guarentee that the cycle wouldn't start all over again.
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#152844 - 24/09/2008 09:27 Re: Financial Meltdown 2008/09
Anthony Cornelius Offline
Meteorologist

Registered: 22/05/2001
Posts: 5162
Loc: Brisbane
Yeah...and McDonalds made me fat...they made a producted that tempted me so much, I had to get in my car, drive there and there they forced me to pay money. After that they shoved the burger down my throat... :rolleyes:

I think you'll find a lot of society issues all come down to self control. But it's too easy to blame some one else than blame ourselves. The amount of debt people get themselves into for the sake of "showing off" or "having something to impress" is no less than sickening. And before anyone jumps up and down and says "Well what about those who don't have much, they're forced to get credit..." I think you'll find the main offenders are middle to higher income earners who generally live quite comfortably but still aren't satisified (or want to show off to their friends...)

Gotta love the "law of diminishing returns..." (ie the more you have the more you want).

Is it Harvey Norman's fault for giving us 2-3 years interest free, or is it our own fault for falling for it? (I don't know what it's like in Darwin SC500, but in Brisbane the TV is saturated with adds of "Buy now, pay nothing for 24 months"). If you don't have the money...don't buy it! Simple.

I've even got friends telling me I should get a widescreen plasma TV (we still have the old 4:3 TVs here), why?? It works fine! Yet go for a walk around any suburb and you'll see big plasmas in the lounge - so big you can read the writing from the street at times! Did all of their TVs break, or did they see the need to upgrade and join everyone else? Hey - don't get me wrong, I'd love a bigger TV...just I want other things too, so I'd rather spend my money on them (rather than buying absolutely everything).

The banks, the corporate giants etc...they're just taking advantage of our greed and inability to have self control.

AC

PS - For CF/Jacob, the comment was a play on words, the Australian economy did start to take a tumble wink But even with my blue glasses on, I'm well aware that it was a coincidence...but was more a comment on he was telling the truth!
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#152845 - 24/09/2008 09:39 Re: Financial Meltdown 2008/09
DJC Offline
Member

Registered: 22/10/2007
Posts: 5905
Loc: Townsville, Condon. 621mm PMR,...
I agree with everything you have said there AC. We live very comfortably without going out and buying plasma TV's, huge stereos etc. We don't spend a great deal and still live a good life. In saying this, a lot of people want more, More, MORE!

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#152846 - 24/09/2008 09:59 Re: Financial Meltdown 2008/09
Keith Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 16/12/2001
Posts: 6453
Loc: Kings Langley, NSW
ColdFront, of course the banks are not without fault and it will never be my intention to exhonerate them. But who compelled us to take up the offers the banks sent us? They certainly didn't, we did...and we could have said 'No'. If we know that banks are on the make, why do we make it easier for them?

If we aren't watchful we succumb to a kind of selfish indulgence in which 'I am Number One' and 'I have a right to this and that' and so on. Then we get gimmigimmiitis...gimme this, gimme that, I want more, Mrs Kafoops has it, why shouldn't I?

We all need to wake up to ourselves. The buck stops with us, by curtailing our desire for what we don't need. That's how you stop the banks' greed, not by switching business to somewhere else, and not (as certain minorities do) by running around burning holes in the ground with the revolutionary torches of the anti-everything brigade.

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