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#1186120 - 25/03/2013 20:44 Re: Indoor Climate [Re: Surly Bond]
GrizzlyBear Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 23/06/2011
Posts: 2359
Loc: Yetholme [1180m] Central Table...
I see, so you draw on the temperature nearly a meter below the ground, that's a good idea then your house is like it was partially underground. So you also have the ability to influence your heat bank by changing flows of liquids from house to heat bank I take it?. Then that all makes sense that you have a lag of 2 month or so affecting the temperature of your house. So you could keep your house either at the summer model or the winter model depending on flow setting to net gain or loss from heat bank interesting. I would expect you would still remain between the two models no matter what settings were used though since you can only gain or loose to limits set to the 2 curves. But I see how you have that 2 month lag now for sure.

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#1186127 - 25/03/2013 21:24 Re: Indoor Climate [Re: Surly Bond]
Surly Bond Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 23/08/2003
Posts: 2064
Loc: Manilla, near Tamworth NSW
That's right. GrizzlyBear.
However, I do not pump fluids around as some others do. Pumping systems are very expensive (That means they waste lots of energy.) All they do is hurry up the natural heat flows, or enhance them using refrigerants.
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#1186174 - 26/03/2013 07:47 Re: Indoor Climate [Re: Surly Bond]
GrizzlyBear Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 23/06/2011
Posts: 2359
Loc: Yetholme [1180m] Central Table...
So how do the fluids move through the system?. Is it just through natural flows caused by the temperature differentials?. My old wood hot water system also had no pump and just worked by natural heat flows very well.

I guess if you went deeper like 20m down then it might be worth pumping maybe with solar powered pumps or the like.

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#1186195 - 26/03/2013 09:44 Re: Indoor Climate [Re: Surly Bond]
Surly Bond Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 23/08/2003
Posts: 2064
Loc: Manilla, near Tamworth NSW
There are no fluids, GrizzlyBear. Just conduction of heat through the solid soil and rock.
My house is quite ordinary. Perhaps you have not seen the description on Page 7 of this thread.
Not many people have insulated around their footings, as I have to good effect. My main innovation, however, is to actually MEASURE the temperatures inside, outside, and under the house for over a decade.
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#1186305 - 26/03/2013 18:04 Re: Indoor Climate [Re: Surly Bond]
GrizzlyBear Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 23/06/2011
Posts: 2359
Loc: Yetholme [1180m] Central Table...
In that case I do not see how you could influence the heat bank temperature by just opening/closing windows etc. Your graph shows the step at the start of April as you change to the warming regime. Without direct interaction with the heat bank, I could only understand that step if it was an average inside temperature rather than a heat bank temperature, unless of course you could pump heat directly into the heat bank. Or perhaps there is still something I am not understanding.

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#1186564 - 28/03/2013 00:46 Re: Indoor Climate [Re: Surly Bond]
Rolling thunder Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 08/12/2011
Posts: 1152
Loc: Findon, Adelaide.
We had a 5 day period between the 13th and the 18th were the Maximum temp didn't get over 27c,the average ID temp in that time period was about 23-24c.

then 2 days of 29c and 33c, then a cool change, down to 23c the next day and 21c the day after, and the house was still warm up around 25-26 in that coolish period. We just had a 4 day period of >27c, and yet again a cool change today, yet the house temp is still 26c! No heaters or anything. Safe to say my house can store some heat wink

Probably not interesting to anyone else, but i thought i would write it down here smile
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#1206097 - 03/08/2013 12:49 Re: Indoor Climate [Re: Surly Bond]
Surly Bond Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 23/08/2003
Posts: 2064
Loc: Manilla, near Tamworth NSW
[url=]http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z49/Supeito/weatherz3/13JulyIndOut.gif[/url]

Commentary here.

[Damned if I can make that image clickable, but the url is OK.]


Edited by Surly Bond (03/08/2013 12:51)
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#1260561 - 21/04/2014 20:04 Re: Indoor Climate [Re: Surly Bond]
Surly Bond Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 23/08/2003
Posts: 2064
Loc: Manilla, near Tamworth NSW
Since I believe that changes in indoor climate will relate to that outdoors, I am now posting in another place.
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#1291588 - 14/12/2014 16:32 Re: Indoor Climate [Re: Surly Bond]
Surly Bond Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 23/08/2003
Posts: 2064
Loc: Manilla, near Tamworth NSW
Some new forum members may be interested in the topic of this thread, which has not been active for eight months.
This graph, similar to seasonal graphs posted earlier, compares the temperature range in a Gill screen to that indoors, using all daily data for the last twelve months.
More discussion is here.

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#1329996 - 24/05/2015 11:13 Re: Indoor Climate [Re: Surly Bond]
Surly Bond Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 23/08/2003
Posts: 2064
Loc: Manilla, near Tamworth NSW
This thread has been inactive for so long, newer members who may wish to join in will not have seen it.
Over 100 of my posts here refer to data I have collected since 1999 indoors and outdoors at my solar-passive house in Manilla, NSW. However, it will have been hard for readers to appreciate what kind of a house it is. I showed photos of the house, with a brief description only once.

I have now made it much easier to visualise the house by setting up a special page "My House Page" on my website. You can access the page directly, or through this latest blog post "My Solar-passive House Photos and Details".


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#1332579 - 25/06/2015 12:24 Re: Indoor Climate [Re: Surly Bond]
Surly Bond Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 23/08/2003
Posts: 2064
Loc: Manilla, near Tamworth NSW
House construction photos

To make the indoor climate in a house comfortable in all seasons, most people use air conditioning. This is a very wasteful brute force method. It also calls on the electric power grid at times of highest load, making power expensive for everyone.
The house in the post above was designed to be comfortable without air conditioning.
I have now assembled photos of the various phases of construction. These make some features of the design easier to see than in photos of the completed house. The internal mass walls (see photo), and the arrangement of north-facing windows are important.
I introduce these new galleries of photos in a recent blog post "Constructing My Solar-passive house".

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#1376613 - 25/05/2016 11:28 Re: Indoor Climate [Re: Surly Bond]
Surly Bond Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 23/08/2003
Posts: 2064
Loc: Manilla, near Tamworth NSW
Autumn has been very warm here in Manilla.
This morning, we had the first frost of the year. The minimum temperature in the Gill screen was +0.3 degrees, which counts as a frost when I assume that the screen reads 2.2 degrees higher than would be read in a thermometer on the grass.
The minimum temperature on a wall indoors (without using any heating) was 20.6 degrees: that is, 20.3 degrees warmer than the outdoor minimum.
I have not seen any claims that other unheated houses achieve so large a difference between indoor and outdoor temperatures on cold nights.
I have had two earlier nights when minima indoors were more than 20 degrees higher than outdoors, as I showed on a scatter-plot in a post on this thread dated 07 June 2010.
I have discussed that plot on my blog, at:
https://climatebysurly.com/2010/06/17/indoor-versus-outdoor-minima-1096-days/
This high-mass, solar-passive house performs very well in autumn. It retains much of the heat that was absorbed in summer, and is warmed by sun coming in the north-facing windows.
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#1376708 - 26/05/2016 09:21 Re: Indoor Climate [Re: Surly Bond]
retired weather man Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 01/07/2007
Posts: 4265
Loc: Wynnum
My unheated house in winter sees about a 5 deg difference between inside and outside overnight, whereas in the daytime they are about the same. In summer the inside gets up about 5 deg warmer than outside with all windows open.

My Davis set up is only about 10 feet from the outside of the house due to restraints put on by my better half about not messing up her garden. However I am allowed to hang a standard mercury thermometer on a pole in the middle of the garden away from the house. In winter the mins in the garden at regulation BoM 4 foot height are 2 to 2 1/2 deg cooler than the Davis and check mercury nearer the house, the garden temps being consistent with Brisbane Airport temps ( fairly close to me ). In summer the difference is not as large.

I have also hung a standard thermometer next to the Davis and both Davis and mercury read similarly. So it shows an unheated house is still about 2 deg warmer overnight than the normal outside environment, which once again highlights the accuracy of many city based temperatures with increasing numbers apartment tower blocks all pouring out warm air from aircons, diswashers, clothes dryers etc. into the environment - all to be circulated around by low level winds.
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#1376728 - 26/05/2016 13:34 Re: Indoor Climate [Re: Surly Bond]
Surly Bond Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 23/08/2003
Posts: 2064
Loc: Manilla, near Tamworth NSW
Hi, retired weather man
Although our homes are only 450 km apart, your climate differs a lot from mine. Yours is a high-humidity equable climate while mine is one of low humidity and extreme temperature range in both summer and winter.
A. Annual mean daily maximum temperature: Tamworth Ap., 24.8; Brisbane Ap., 25.3.
B. Annual mean daily minimum temperature: Tamworth Ap., 9.8; Brisbane Ap., 15.6.
Annual mean daily mean temperature ((A+B)/2): Tamworth Ap., 17.3; Brisbane Ap., 20.5.
Annual mean daily temperature range (A-B): Tamworth Ap., 15.0; Brisbane Ap., 9.7.
You open your house on summer days to keep cool, but the house still gets 5 degrees warmer than outside. I must keep my house closed on summer days to avoid extreme heat: I get 29 degrees inside when it is 39 degrees outside. I then ventilate the house at night to cool it and, as you find on summer days, my house remains several degrees warmer than outside on summer nights.
To admit summer breezes, louvre windows are common around Brisbane. (Do you have them?) They are rarer around here, as they used to let draughts through, bringing in summer daytime heat. I have just had a motorised louvre window installed for the sole purpose of admitting cold night air in summer. The window is low down in the south wall of the house. It has wooden louvre blades and opens automatically each day on a time switch. Up to now, I have been opening and shutting doors nightly for the same purpose.
About the temperature observations: I recently had a courtyard built against my south wall, and I am observing temperatures there. I have three more Gill screens. One is at standard height in the courtyard, one on the roof above, and one close to the concrete floor.
About Bureau temperature records and averages: In getting the numbers I cited above, I realised yet again how pitifully short Australian weather records are. Tamworth Airport's annual figures began only in 1993, and Brisbane Airport's in 1996. These are hardly any longer than my own amateur records that began in 1999!
Soon, we amateurs may be the only ones keeping such records at all!
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#1377283 - 31/05/2016 20:48 Re: Indoor Climate [Re: Surly Bond]
towers Offline
Cloud Gazer

Registered: 15/03/2015
Posts: 15
Loc: Tablelands, FNQ
Interesting topic, thanks for creating. I've noticed some indoor temperature fluctuations in my house that I've been curious about. For example, these are the March average temperatures I recorded last year at my place in north qld (sorry for the bad formatting):


Outside averages:

0:00 1:00 2:00 3:00 4:00 5:00 6:00 7:00 8:00 9:00 10:00 11:00 12:00 13:00 14:00 15:00 16:00 17:00 18:00 19:00 20:00 21:00 22:00 23:00


20.6C 20.4C 20.3C 20.2C 20.1C 19.9C 19.9C 20.5C 22.2C 24.3C 25.8C 26.5C 26.6C 26.4C 26.1C 25.7C 25.0C 23.9C 22.8C 22.0C 21.5C 21.2C 20.9C 20.7C

Inside averages:

0:00 1:00 2:00 3:00 4:00 5:00 6:00 7:00 8:00 9:00 10:00 11:00 12:00 13:00 14:00 15:00 16:00 17:00 18:00 19:00 20:00 21:00 22:00 23:00


22.0C 22.0C 21.9C 21.7C 21.5C 21.4C 21.3C 21.4C 22.2C 22.6C 23.2C 23.9C 24.4C 24.6C 24.8C 24.8C 24.7C 24.2C 23.6C 22.9C 22.4C 22.0C 21.8C 21.8C


As you can see, the house cools down effectively from about 16:00 up until about 21:00, when cooling stops even though outside temperature is still falling (although slowly). More striking is the fact the inside temperature actually increases between 23:00 and 0:00, then stalls again before slowly falling, only again reaching the temperature attained at 22:00 5 hours later. This is averaged over a whole month with windows always open and no air conditioning or heating used. The trend holds true in the middle of summer as well, but about 3 degrees warmer than the March averages, so it can be quite warm inside.

I'm guessing this is to do with insulation or thermal mass of the house, it being a brick house. It does have large windows, but this doesn't seem to be sufficient to overcome the 23:00 heating trend.

I'd be interested to know if this pattern holds true for your house as well and looking at ways to possibly increase airflow - as I've seen you do with the louvres.

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#1378072 - 04/06/2016 15:01 Re: Indoor Climate [Re: Surly Bond]
Surly Bond Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 23/08/2003
Posts: 2064
Loc: Manilla, near Tamworth NSW
Hi, "towers".
I'll plot out your data to compare with some of mine, and think about it.
In my post here of 25 March 2011, I give an example of mid-summer daily temperature cycles. I say: "After the outdoor maximum at 15:00, indoor temperatures continued to rise, at a slower rate, to peak after sunset."
In the earlier post of 30 January 2011, showing mid-winter daily temperature cycles, I had said: "[Like the outdoor temperatures, the indoor] minima came at sunrise and the maxima near 14:00, but the graph was saw-toothed, rising and falling at steady rates of about +0.70 degrees per hour and -0.25 degrees per hour."
So there was quite a marked change in the shape of the indoor daily cycle between mid-summer and mid-winter, which I have not been able to explain.
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#1378841 - 09/06/2016 20:28 Re: Indoor Climate [Re: Surly Bond]
towers Offline
Cloud Gazer

Registered: 15/03/2015
Posts: 15
Loc: Tablelands, FNQ
Hi Surly Bond,

It would be interesting to track changes in indoor temperature variations over the seasons. Unfortunately my weather station developed a fault uploading data in May of last year, and having only started recording data in March I have no records for the Winter or Summer months, only what I have observed casually over the years.

I think I will set up a new station, ready to start collecting data from the very start of the year, and get a better idea of the temperature changes over the whole year. If I had started this year I'm sure the data collected would have revealed temperatures well above the norm, to the point of needing a few more years of data just for it to align closer to a more realistic historical average.


Edited by towers (09/06/2016 20:32)

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#1378852 - 09/06/2016 23:19 Re: Indoor Climate [Re: Surly Bond]
Surly Bond Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 23/08/2003
Posts: 2064
Loc: Manilla, near Tamworth NSW
Yes, towers, however long a record is, we always wish it was longer!
I now have annual figures as shown in this graph. You can see that even annual average figures jump about like crazy.

An earlier post in this thread shows that my house temperature varied rather less than the screen temperature when using annual figures.
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#1380677 - 26/06/2016 07:49 Re: Indoor Climate [Re: Surly Bond]
retired weather man Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 01/07/2007
Posts: 4265
Loc: Wynnum
Wynnum Nth house --
Sat outdoor max 17.3C, indoor max 18.4C
Sun outdoor min 4.7C, indoor min 8.5C.
House is insulated but we have no heating or air con.
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Wyn Nth 2017-Jan107.6(158),Feb24.4(149),Mar410.2(123),Apr8.8(98),May32.2(101),Jun91.4(75),Jul16.6(57),Aug6.4(45),Sep4.2(33)YTD 702.0(841.0)

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#1380716 - 26/06/2016 14:11 Re: Indoor Climate [Re: Surly Bond]
Surly Bond Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 23/08/2003
Posts: 2064
Loc: Manilla, near Tamworth NSW
I'll try to match your numbers, retired weather man.
(These are my observations at 9 am today, the max having occurred on Saturday afternoon and the min early on Sunday morning.)
Manilla high-mass, solar-passive house --
Sat outdoor max 11.8C, indoor max 19.9C
Sun outdoor min -0.9C, indoor min 16.1C.
House is insulated but has no heating or air con.
I used a blower heater for half an hour and I put a fourth blanket on the bed (very rare indeed!).

This time is quite anomalous. The rainfall for June is already the highest in 83 years, with extreme cloudiness, extremely high dew point and narrow mean daily temperature range (about 10 degrees instead of 15).
With most days having 7/8 or 8/8 cloud, my house has barely stayed warm enough for comfort. Saturday, however, was sunny all day, which brought the house to a maximum of 19.9 degrees, despite the Gill screen not going above 11.8 degrees, and a chilly breeze blowing from the south-west.
While last night was cold over much of south-eastern Australia, the temperature here began to rise at 4 am, as a cirrus deck spread over. It is still here.
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