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#445389 - 06/03/2009 23:56 Re: Land Management
Adam Ant Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 28/10/2003
Posts: 1009
Loc: West Toowoomba
Quote:
Originally posted by Andy Dubbya:
We'll be heading some soya beans in a couple of months providing this possible upcoming rain doesn't spoil them *crosses fingers*. We were going to use the stubble as a treat for the cattle, let them eat it and trample it back into the soil. About the only thing that springs to mind about ploughing stubble back in is that it can be very difficult if the stand is dense, if you burn off then you don't get stems wrapped around gear and it is easier to get a better result. Ploughing after burning also gives you an opportunity to mix the ash back into the soil which can be a good pick me up also.

So in answer to your question Will, for me it would depend on all of the above! Vague enough for you? I guess as a general rule, for us we won't be burning off the same patch of ground every year. Returning organic matter to the soil is very important for supporting biological activity. Be interested to hear what the 'real' cropping guys have to say smile
An old agronomist in my district that I used to work for was not in favour of regular burnings year after year because he believed that it killed the micro organisms in the top soil. He only used it when the grower wanted a quick turn around of sorghum or corn into wheat or the crop was severely diseased.

PS- Im not a real cropping guy :p , just a techo with the dpi who grows soys and mungs

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#445390 - 07/03/2009 00:17 Re: Land Management
DJC Offline
Member

Registered: 22/10/2007
Posts: 5905
Loc: Townsville, Condon. 621mm PMR,...
Quote:
Originally posted by Dylanweather:
No posting after the mod warning? Can't we have a good conversation without arguing *ADD* or personal attacks etc?
Answer my own question. No. :rolleyes:

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#445391 - 07/03/2009 01:13 Re: Land Management
ColdFront Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 29/06/2008
Posts: 17726
Loc: Wide Bay..Near the beach
Rabbits :introduced into Victoria in 1860, ironically by a farming family because they were home sick. Foxes introduced to control rabbits.

Effect of rabbits on the environment was catastrophic.They made sheep farming impossible for starters. They competed with and unltimately took over the burrows of Bilbys which then struggled to bounce back as feral cats spread rapidly across Australia with an endless food supply of - wait for it ....rabbits.

Then of course we brought in a couple of control( myxomatosis and calicivirus ) methods for rabbits and so foxes and cats then turned their attention to native animals putting further pressure on the remaining bilby populations. Whilst in plague the rabbits laid waste to vast areas of native grasslands pushing long-billed corellas to the edge of extinction.

Now the corellas have reached plague proportion in some areas on the back of farming. With rabbit numbers in decline foxes and wild dogs then turn their attention to livestock.


Kangeroos in plague due to farming creating vast areas of food stock.

Cane toads introduced into Gordonvale in Nth Queensland in the 30's to control cane beetles.

Problem: cane beetles live at the top of the cane. Cane toads can't climb.

Solution: turn to eating all the native and beneficial beetles meanwhile pushing the northern spotted quoll to the edge of extinction with poisoning. Dramatic reduction in monitor numbers and many snake species, which eat the rats that attack sugar cane.

Cane toad now into NSW and Kakadu. Cane beetle still in Gordonvale.

Pigs introduced into Australia for farming. Some pigs escape their enclosures and feral pigs now destroy vast areas of land across Australia. Plant species in some national parks wiped out by feral pigs.

Tasmanian Tiger: shot out to extinction by farmers. A bounty was put on its head. So apparently not only feral animals were fair game.





Irony anyone?
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#445392 - 07/03/2009 01:46 Re: Land Management
ColdFront Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 29/06/2008
Posts: 17726
Loc: Wide Bay..Near the beach
I have heard all the arguements regarding stock losses before but I never had a cat or a dog as a child that wasn't spade. Yet many farmers still do. I know this because believe it or not I have friends in the Proserpine area that are "cane farmers".

One of whom turns his crop into the ground every three years to ensure productive soil without the need for as much chemical. Yet let's his unsexed dogs go roaming as they please. Several cats grace the property also. No doubt killing birds that eat the beetles on his cane and owls that eat the rats.

I don't litter. I recycle where possible. I don't wash chemicals down the drain. So I am doing my bit where ever possible .

Also , ROM if you think I don't get upset when I hear of farmers committing suicide due to drought you are gravely mistaken. I wish they would seek help rather than assume that men can't talk about their problems.

So don't think it is a one way debate. It's not.

Most national parks in this country were formed to keep farmers from buying the land or timber mills (which is farming anyway) cutting them down as they were disappearing at a devastating rate. Infact even the liberal government intervened .

Some of you guys will not be happy until it is all gone. I promise you this much. When it is all gone you will see what the fuss was about. If you're still around. Yet heaven forbid anyone that so much as breaths against you.

Oh...and one more thing. Many of the weeds that choke our parks were brought into this country with crop seeds by farmers.
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#445393 - 07/03/2009 07:48 Re: Land Management
David Simpson. Offline
Weatherzone Administrator/Moderator

Registered: 13/10/2002
Posts: 4928
Loc: Tasmania
Zero tolerance on the insults, innuendos and trolling in this thread guys. Anyone failing to comply will be suspended immediately, rather than closing the thread. If you can't contain yourself, either don't post or keep it offline. Thanks.

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#445394 - 07/03/2009 11:18 Re: Land Management
Adam Ant Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 28/10/2003
Posts: 1009
Loc: West Toowoomba
Quote:
Originally posted by ColdFront:

Oh...and one more thing. Many of the weeds that choke our parks were brought into this country with crop seeds by farmers.
I have to disagree with you on that one. Most noxious weeds were brought over for garden plants or were accidently introduced and spread from there. Out of the top 20 weeds of national significance only 2 or 3 were introduced by farmers.

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#445395 - 07/03/2009 12:06 Re: Land Management
Flying Binghi Offline
Member

Registered: 08/07/2008
Posts: 171
Loc: QLD
Some examples -

Quote:
Rubber vine is a Weed of National
Significance. It is regarded as one of the
worst weeds in Australia because of its
invasiveness, potential for spread, and
economic and environmental impacts.

Rubber vine was first planted in the
gardens of mining towns of northern
Queensland in the late 1860s. Weedy
infestations were reported by 1917.
Quote:
Lantana is a Weed of National Significance. It is regarded as one of the worst weeds in Australia because of its invasiveness, potential for spread, and economic and environmental impacts

The earliest record for Australia is from 1841 in the old Botanic Gardens in Adelaide, South Australia
Weeds in Australia

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#445396 - 07/03/2009 12:11 Re: Land Management
cyclonecece Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 08/01/2007
Posts: 7823
Loc: Brandon.. QLD..EX Karratha
That Rubber vine has been found here in gardens just last week.They are setting a table up in the shopping center to show people as they say most people think its pretty and give cuttings to freinds

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#445397 - 07/03/2009 13:19 Re: Land Management
ColdFront Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 29/06/2008
Posts: 17726
Loc: Wide Bay..Near the beach
Some plants that are now weeds were deliberately brought here for crops, pastures or as ornamentals. Others arrived accidentally, in animal feed or in the soil around pot plants, for example. Current quarantine regulations are designed to reduce further accidental introductions, while protocols restrict the importation of new species for agriculture and gardens.

The need for these protocols to be tightened was highlighted recently by a study of pasture plants imported into the Northern Territory (Lonsdale, 1994). Of 463 species imported, only 5 per cent became useful pasture plants, while 13 per cent became classed as weeds. Some of the useful plants were also weedy, so that in fact, less than 1 per cent became useful without causing a weed problem. The cost of controlling the weeds will far outweigh the benefit from grazing the useful species.

The above is cut from this article.


http://members.iinet.net.au/~weeds/western_weeds/introduction.htm
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#445398 - 07/03/2009 13:37 Re: Land Management
ColdFront Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 29/06/2008
Posts: 17726
Loc: Wide Bay..Near the beach
[Lantana is a Weed of National Significance. It is regarded as one of the worst weeds in Australia because of its invasiveness, potential for spread, and economic and environmental impacts

The earliest record for Australia is from 1841 in the old Botanic Gardens in Adelaide, South Australia ]

There is evidence to dispute this and it is now believed that lantana was brought into this country as seed.
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#445399 - 07/03/2009 13:46 Re: Land Management
ColdFront Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 29/06/2008
Posts: 17726
Loc: Wide Bay..Near the beach
Rubber vine was first planted in the
gardens of mining towns of northern
Queensland in the late 1860s. Weedy
infestations were reported by 1917.


No city folk involved here either!

Adam your post ignores the fact that the top 20 weeds are largely determined by their impact on "pasture". A weed by definition is a plant species that is not wanted. There are many weed species that no-one else wants but are suitable as stock feed so won't make that list.
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#445400 - 07/03/2009 14:07 Re: Land Management
ColdFront Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 29/06/2008
Posts: 17726
Loc: Wide Bay..Near the beach
Quote:
Originally posted by ColdFront:
Rubber vine was first planted in the
gardens of mining towns of northern
Queensland in the late 1860s. Weedy
infestations were reported by 1917.


No city folk involved here either!

Adam your post ignores the fact that the top 20 weeds are largely determined by their impact on "pasture". A weed by definition is a plant species that is not wanted. There are many weed species that no-one else wants but are suitable as stock feed so won't make that list.
Mimosa pigra was rumoured to have been spread to the Proserpine area through seed stuck in the hoof of cattle brought in from further nth. Cattle that graze down to the edge of the catchment.
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#445401 - 07/03/2009 14:10 Re: Land Management
ColdFront Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 29/06/2008
Posts: 17726
Loc: Wide Bay..Near the beach
The city folk and the farmers will never truly love eachother and I do agree that there is an extremist view taken by some of the latte brigade. It works the other way too though. I for one don't hate farmers, but don't have any respect for the ones that blame everyone else for problems they have contributed to themselves.

To get angry because wild dogs attack your sheep is one thing. But to blame the greens for it when your dog ran into the national park after a wild dog on heat is another thing entirely.

A better burn off policy is needed for the weed issue. Perhaps hunters could be sent in to shoot the ferals moving ahead of the fronts? Cattle won't fix this problem. Hopefully the royal commission into the fires demands funding for better management of the boundries of these parks.

Anyway, for the sake of peace in this thread I am going to leave it to you guys in the farming industry to chat amongst yourselves. Which I should have done when I first said Adios.

So adios and all the best.
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#445402 - 07/03/2009 14:29 Re: Land Management
Adam Ant Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 28/10/2003
Posts: 1009
Loc: West Toowoomba
Quote:
Originally posted by ColdFront:
Rubber vine was first planted in the
gardens of mining towns of northern
Queensland in the late 1860s. Weedy
infestations were reported by 1917.


No city folk involved here either!

Adam your post ignores the fact that the top 20 weeds are largely determined by their impact on "pasture". A weed by definition is a plant species that is not wanted. There are many weed species that no-one else wants but are suitable as stock feed so won't make that list.
No CF. The top 20 list isnt determined by its effects on pasture. To quote the website its determined by the invasiveness of a weed species,
a weed's impacts, the potential for spread of a weed, socio-economic and environmental values. The alligator weed, bridal creeper, cambomba and silvinia to name a few are on the list and they have no effect on pasture.

Good point about a plant being a weed in one area and not in the other. I presume your talking about gamba grass. Another one that springs to mind is the camphor laurel, here in toowoomba the council plants them everywhere but in N NSW they are a noxious weed.

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#445403 - 09/03/2009 15:49 Re: Land Management
bigwilly Offline
Weatherzone Mod and Photog

Registered: 25/09/2002
Posts: 6543
Loc: Junee - just north of the 'Bid...
Following on from the discussion in the Black Saturday Thread regarding burning regimes...

Ben, I don't know about the rest of the state - although I have a fair idea - but at least in the Blue Mountains, the policy has certainly come across as 'jump on everything'. It even went to the point of a front page article in the local rag some years ago full of acclaim for remote crews limiting the total burnt area for the season to something riciulously small like 100Ha. And we're talking about putting out fires in the Wollemi that will have to burn for weeks to reach any sort of civilisation.

So I would say the current attitudes of fire managers are back to the point prior to '94 and I'm not looking forward to when we have a repeat performance either...

BTW, I should add that even since the 60's and 70's, many places have seen a vast change in vegetation type. Aerial photos of the Blue Mountains taken in those decades (as I have been told - the photos aren't available to the public) show vast tracts of almost savannah type vegetation where today stands thick, inpenetrable scrub or dense heathland.

Even the early reports of explorers 'galloping along the open ridgetops' show how there has been a considerable change in vegetation.

:cheers: Will
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#445404 - 09/03/2009 18:59 Re: Land Management
ColdFront Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 29/06/2008
Posts: 17726
Loc: Wide Bay..Near the beach
Your view on letting it burn I agree with BW. I certainly think the policy of jumping on everything is flawed.

I think it is about time cool burns were put in place and hunters appointed to move ahead of the fronts in a joint effort to reduce fire hazard and feral animal infestations in NP's .

I've never had a problem with hazard reduction through managed burns. Perhaps this will become part of the requirement after the findings from these recent events. Certainly it appears better home design is a given also.

Sometimes we need to lose to gain.
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#445405 - 10/03/2009 18:02 Re: Land Management
Simmosturf Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 17/03/2008
Posts: 1620
Loc: Wangaratta
You can't blame the farmers for what is happening in the NP's coldie, the blame is simply with the clowns who run the show, Government departments such as the DSE, DPI, and parks Victoria... And if you feel like spewing about me knocking a few
over populated ducks to whack in a pot to feed my family, then you should go and have a look at Lake Mokoan which the DSE maintain and are de-commissioning, thousands of Murray Cod which are apparently a threatened species are wallowing in the shallow water just waiting to die, some up to 100LB and what do you think the DSE idiots and Victorian Gov are doing, stopping people from fishing, what a waste... I wouldn't trust a Gov employee or a greenie as far as I could boot them out of their plush offices. Disgusting and shameful..

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#445406 - 10/03/2009 18:52 Re: Land Management
RC Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 29/09/2007
Posts: 2024
Loc: near Rockhampton, Qld
Our great and illustrious state government has decided to turn the side of a range that we border into national park...

It has been vacant crown land for over 100 years and every few years is burnt by the adjoining landholders...As it is only 1.5km wide, extremely rugged has no water and more importantly has no access whatsoever we were dumbfounded to hear it will be turned into national park, it will be 100% impossible to manage, it will be impossible for them to even put a road of any description into it but still the government will proceed to do it to grab the green vote from dumb city voters..

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#445407 - 10/03/2009 18:53 Re: Land Management
ColdFront Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 29/06/2008
Posts: 17726
Loc: Wide Bay..Near the beach
I don't remember mentioning ducks anywhere. What are you on about?

The farmers are as accountable also . Some of the weeds originated on their properties. Some of the pigs escaped from their pens. Some of the wild dogs had litters from their wandering dogs.

I'll reserve my feelings about (some) farmers as this is a thread about Land Management.
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#445408 - 10/03/2009 18:55 Re: Land Management
ColdFront Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 29/06/2008
Posts: 17726
Loc: Wide Bay..Near the beach
Quote:
Originally posted by RC:
Our great and illustrious state government has decided to turn the side of a range that we border into national park...

It has been vacant crown land for over 100 years and every few years is burnt by the adjoining landholders...As it is only 1.5km wide, extremely rugged has no water and more importantly has no access whatsoever we were dumbfounded to hear it will be turned into national park, it will be 100% impossible to manage, it will be impossible for them to even put a road of any description into it but still the government will proceed to do it to grab the green vote from dumb city voters..
If it is as inaccessable as you say it has no value for anything else. So what would you propose?
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