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#446731 - 30/08/2009 22:27 Re: Eat Less Meat!!!
SBT Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 07/02/2007
Posts: 14126
Loc: Townsville Dry Tropics
Yep and proud of it. Hmm soft nose silver tip with tracer, kill, , skin, gut, mince and cook all in one bullet. Sweet.

Elmer Keith - Famous gun writer from the 1930's to 1980's, hunter and cowboy had many sayings but my persoanl favourite was one anti gun nut who asked him, tongue in cheek, what he would use when hunting mice, his reply "a .44 I don't give any critters an even chance".
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173mm Mar 2017
Best 79mm 16/1/17
2017 Total 485mm
2016 Total 649mm
2015 Total 375mm







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#1005672 - 12/08/2011 13:20 Re: Eat Less Meat!!! [Re: SBT]
LydiaZou Offline
Cloud Gazer

Registered: 08/08/2011
Posts: 2
yes, it's also a good method for our environment! support, but not don't eat. but less
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#1006074 - 14/08/2011 23:28 Re: Eat Less Meat!!! [Re: LydiaZou]
SBT Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 07/02/2007
Posts: 14126
Loc: Townsville Dry Tropics
I firmly belive that meat has a place in everyones diet regardless of how queasy you feel when eating it. probably without exceptinon nearly every child was raised omn meat and meat products from birth and it is only later in life when they suddenly 'grow a consience' that they feel that eating meat is somehow obnoxious.

I should also mention that I am a founding member of PETA in north Queensland - That People Eating Tasty Animals not the other numpties. If the creator didn't want us to eat meat he/she wouldn't have made them taste so damn good.
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173mm Mar 2017
Best 79mm 16/1/17
2017 Total 485mm
2016 Total 649mm
2015 Total 375mm







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#1006100 - 15/08/2011 09:43 Re: Eat Less Meat!!! [Re: SBT]
ant Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 05/10/2002
Posts: 9063
Loc: Overlooking ACT at 848m
I eat meat, I seem to need it. If I need to lose weight, I cut right down on processed carbohydrates and eat more meat, and off the weight goes. I was at the Canberra rally against Live Exports yesterday, and all the speakers were advocating that we export meat, not live animals. No one was saying we should not be eating meat... the reality is, people do eat meat.

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#1006153 - 15/08/2011 18:27 Re: Eat Less Meat!!! [Re: ant]
Brett Guy Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 05/10/2010
Posts: 4822
Loc: Bently Park, Cairns
Hang on a second! shouldn't we be eating more meat. That way we kill those damn methane prducing cows!
Also an interesting thought is the fact that apparently AGW is caused by human activities injecting extra greenhouse gasses that are not pert of the natural cycle. If that is so then cows farting don't matter. Do they?

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#1006192 - 16/08/2011 06:49 Re: Eat Less Meat!!! [Re: Brett Guy]
RC Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 29/09/2007
Posts: 1864
Loc: near Rockhampton, Qld
LOL export more boxed beef..... What a simplistic solution.... Of course all those advocating that have no intention of actually working in said meatworks.. A meatworks that can only be open around 8 months of the year and has to somehow compete with mining wages to find staff to work those 8 months..


The local meatworks has told me their exports of boxed beef to Indonesia have been stopped since the live export ban...

So much for that brainwave...


http://qcl.farmonline.com.au/news/nation...er/2256805.aspx

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#1006207 - 16/08/2011 09:41 Re: Eat Less Meat!!! [Re: RC]
ROM Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 29/01/2007
Posts: 6628
There are two aspects to the very long history behind the early proto-human's consumption of meat and both fly in the face of the various anti-meat zealots.

From Berkeley Uni in California ; Meat-eating was essential for human evolution, says UC Berkeley anthropologist specializing in diet
Quote:
BERKELEY-- Human ancestors who roamed the dry and open savannas of Africa about 2 million years ago routinely began to include meat in their diets to compensate for a serious decline in the quality of plant foods, according to a physical anthropologist at the University of California, Berkeley.

It was this new meat diet, full of densely-packed nutrients, that provided the catalyst for human evolution, particularly the growth of the brain, said Katharine Milton, an authority on primate diet.

Without meat, said Milton, it's unlikely that proto humans could have secured enough energy and nutrition from the plants available in their African environment at that time to evolve into the active, sociable, intelligent creatures they became. Receding forests would have deprived them of the more nutritious leaves and fruits that forest-dwelling primates survive on, said Milton.

Her thesis complements the discovery last month by UC Berkeley professor Tim White and others that early human species were butchering and eating animal meat as long ago as 2.5 million years. Milton's article integrates dietary strategy with the evolution of human physiology to argue that meat eating was routine.

Read the full article.

The second part of the advantages conferred to humans through meat eating which out of all the species on Earth is a unique characteristic confined to the human species alone is the cooking of meat and other foods.
My Doc put me wise to this a few years ago when he told me that cooking of meat and other foods releases a lot more nutrients a lot easier for the human gut to absorb and therefore for more and better nutrients are made available which in turn has led to greater brain development in the human race.

The following article on the cooking of food by our ancestors is based on a paper in "Science" which, as usual, is behind a pay wall [ Again!! mad ]

Did cooking allow for the increase in human brain size?
Quote:
Science has a fascinating review about the history of cooking and its relation to human evolution. Richard Wrangham, a Harvard primatologist, has been pushing the idea that the expansion in Homo erectus' skull size was the result of additional energy released by cooking meat:

What spurred this dramatic growth in the H. erectus skull? Meat, according to a longstanding body of evidence. The first stone tools appear at Gona in Ethiopia about 2.7 million years ago, along with evidence that hominids were using them to butcher scavenged carcasses and extract marrow from bones. But big changes don't appear in human anatomy until more than 1 million years later, when a 1.6-million-year-old skull of H. erectus shows it was twice the size of an australopithecine's skull, says paleoanthropologist Alan Walker of Pennsylvania State University in State College. At about that time, archaeological sites show that H. erectus was moving carcasses to campsites for further butchering and sharing; its teeth, jaws, and guts all got smaller. The traditional explanation is that H. erectus was a better hunter and scavenger and ate more raw meat than its small-brained ancestors.
But a diet of wildebeest tartare and antelope sashimi alone isn't enough to account for these dramatic changes, says Wrangham. He notes that H. erectus had small teeth--smaller than those of its ancestors--unlike other carnivores that adapted to eating raw meat by increasing tooth size. He argues that whereas earlier ancestors ate raw meat, H. erectus must have been roasting it, with root vegetables on the side or as a fallback when hunters didn't bring home the bacon. "Cooking produces soft, energy-rich foods," he says.
To find support for his ideas, Wrangham went to the lab to quantify the nutritional impact of cooking. He found almost nothing in food science literature and began to collaborate with physiologist Stephen Secor of the University of Alabama, Tuscaloosa, who studies digestive physiology and metabolism in amphibians and reptiles. Secor's team fed 24 Burmese pythons one of four diets consisting of the same number of calories of beef: cooked ground beef, cooked intact beef, raw ground beef, or raw intact beef. Then they estimated the energy the snakes consumed before, during, and after they digested the meat, by measuring the declining oxygen content in their metabolic chambers. Pythons fed cooked beef spent 12.7% less energy digesting it and 23.4% less energy if the meat was both cooked and ground. "By eating cooked meat, less energy is expended on digestion; therefore, more energy can be used for other activities and growth," says Secor.

Secor also helped Wrangham and graduate student Rachel Carmody design a pilot study in which they found that mice raised on cooked meat gained 29% more weight than mice fed raw meat over 5 weeks. The mice eating cooked food were also 4% longer on average, according to preliminary results. Mice that ate raw chow weighed less even though they consumed more calories than those fed cooked food. "The energetic consequences of eating cooked meat are very high," says Wrangham. (Emphasis added )

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#1006240 - 16/08/2011 13:07 Re: Eat Less Meat!!! [Re: ROM]
Markus Offline
Weatherzone Moderator

Registered: 02/12/2010
Posts: 2030
Loc: Clare, SA
It seems most people these days have lost touch with reality. If not for meat we would not exist as we do today. As for the greenies don't get me started on them, pretty much blackmailing labor into a carbon tax amongst all their other rediculous schemes, but i won't go there. Here where I live like most parts of Australia we have serious rabbit, fox, cat and deer problems as well as the usual suspect birds. I see no problem eating any animal as long as it aint carnivourous due to obvious reasons. Me and dad kill and butcher a lot of our own meat. We have contacts with local farmers and often shoot hare just with a 22 then go home, butcher clean and eat. Also deer in the last ten years have become very widespread and damaging to local vegetation so we shoot and eat them as well, much to our pleasure (mouth watering at the thought). Any foxes, blackbirds etc I have no problem in blowing them to hell with a .308. Conservation hunting is crucial IMO.

What really ticks me off about this all really is how much people have lost touch with the true struggle that is life. They expect to go to a supermarket and get all the food they need at demand and especially the vegetarians, i mean how unhuman can you possibly get. I remember my grandfather telling me how through the great depression people were starving and they actually lived off rabbit for quite a while due to no other food being available. Im fairly sure if these so called vegetarians were near starved to death and had no choice to eat meat what their decison would be and as for forcing their children to eat just vegies that in my opinion is a crime. I once asked at school if anybody had ate rabbit or venison or such with a unaminous WTF is wrong with you thrown back. So being myself i made a rabbit stew and tricked a few into eating it and they didn't notice any difference but lost it when i told them. The second thing is all the people around here who believe killing the deer is wrong. Well its that or watch all the natural vegetation destroyed and all our native animals gone.

Society is spoiled and really need to take a step back and determine whats really important, not wasting efforts on producing reports saying why we shouldn't do what is programmed into our genetics
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#1006291 - 16/08/2011 16:33 Re: Eat Less Meat!!! [Re: Markus]
bundybear Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 28/12/2010
Posts: 1957
Loc: Between Bundy and Gladstone
I think we are omnivores. grin

We will sometimes have a 'vegetarian' dinner. But we may have a carnivorous breakfast of bacon and egg.

Meat can provide a large amount of nutrition in a small amount. Young children can get the iron they need from a small amount of meat or a large amount of beans. I know which my kids would eat.

When my son was small he didn't really like meat. Not sure if it was the taste or texture or the fact the lazy snot had to put energy into something like chewing. I fed him home made pate' on toast instead. He loved it.

We eat meat nearly every day but that is because it is a convenience food. Takes little effort to prepare and cook. To provide the same nutrient otherwise involves more time in the kitchen and brainpower to think of what to cook.

Meat like everything else should be eaten as part of a balanced diet.

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#1006374 - 16/08/2011 21:36 Re: Eat Less Meat!!! [Re: bundybear]
ROM Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 29/01/2007
Posts: 6628
If you find an old farmer type who is in his late eighties or around 90 years old plus and still has all his marbles, get him talking about the Great Depression days of the early 1930's
And ask him about "underground mutton".
That will probably bring a chuckle or two as "underground mutton" other wise known as rabbits which were in plague numbers in those days, saved many, many a rural and town family from serious hunger and even slow starvation in those bad years of that Great Depression.
An old friend of mine, Ian, regularly use to regale me with stories of walking, if you could call it that, for a half mile at a time up to his knees in sand alongside of the rough tracks that passed for roads in those days as the immense and continuous rabbit warrens dug into the Mallee sands caved in under his weight.
At times and I have only seen it a couple of times as small boy along the Wimmera River near water in the early 1940's, the ground just moved with the rabbits when they were in plague numbers.
During drought years such as in the 1930's and early 40's, the plague rabbits used dig their warrens in the scrub and then eat the bark off the roots of the Mallees and other trees to get the moisture and in some cases that killed the trees.

My old friend Ian, told me his grandmother who was obviously a very astute business women, actually had a farm given to her.[ probably 160 acres as that was a selection size in those days around here.]

A young couple had come up from the big smoke ie; Melbourne and settled on a [ farm ] selection nearby but with the bad years and bad prices and dry years of the late 1920's and early 1930's they just had no hope of getting anywhere.
One day they turned up at Ian's grandmother's house with their baby and small child and they told Ian's grandmother that they knew they had no hope of making any sort of a reasonable living from farming and so they were abandoning the farm and heading back to Melbourne.
Don't overlook that they were going to walk the 350 kms all the way with a baby and a small child and with little or no food or money.
They said to the grandmother who had helped them a lot as she did with many less fortunate than herself, you have been very good to us as long as we have been here so here are our farm's titles as it is no longer worth anything to us and we can't sell it because nobody has any money to buy it.

Ian's grandmother was quite shocked and she told them she couldn't take their farm but they insisted so she said, well you have the baby and your child so you will take one of my quietest milking cows for milk for your children plus some other food and a small cart to carry everything and you will take a pig also that you will be able to sell later on.
And that was how Ian's grandmother had a farm given to her.
Such were those bad times.

And just a thought after reading the Markus and Bundy's posts
Who are most likely to be the survivors and who will collapse and probably die by the wayside as they demand that somebody do something if a major disaster struck our civilisation and all the vast infrastructure and net work of technology that now keeps our cities, our society and our civilisation functioning just simply collapsed with the consequent failure of water, food supplies, energy , transport, medical and etc and etc.?

Couldn't happen and in any case people will figure a way out most will say.
But it has happened, many times to many past civilisations as those who know their history will know only to well.

A considerable number perhaps would figure out how to survive but for many No!
Those who would survive would rapidly figure out that all the old habits of city life would have to be discarded and only the real essentials needed to survive would have to be developed, understood and used.
Knowledge and skills that an increasing number and maybe most of our present generations are losing and for some have already lost the basic knowledge of nature and the red in claw and tooth psychology needed to develop the skills of survival in a natural environment. A natural environment that is to them, an increasingly unknown, hostile, dangerous and foreign environment.
As an example of this I think of the young Japanese tourist of a few years ago, the archetypal mega city resident who set off to walk or ride a bike [ can't remember which ] across the Nullabor. When he didn't turn up on time a search was organised for him.

He was eventually found near death from the lack of water in the shade of a water filled bore tank out on the Nullabor.
Yes, he survived but for some time the authorities had to maintain a watch over him as he wanted to commit suicide from the shame of very nearly dying from thirst with unknown to him, readily accessible water only the few centimeters thickness of a concrete tank wall away from him.

With over one half of all of mankind now living in cities of over 100,000 population that is where our increasingly centralised civilisation is heading.

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#1006378 - 16/08/2011 22:01 Re: Eat Less Meat!!! [Re: ROM]
bundybear Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 28/12/2010
Posts: 1957
Loc: Between Bundy and Gladstone
I ate enough roo tail stew as a kid to be partial to other things these days. Same goes for the crumbed brains, lambs fry and tripe.

My kids know where their food comes from. They have seen steak go from paddock to plate. Seen the milk come from the cow to become their breakfast milk, yoghurt, cheese, cream, butter.

They know that the bruised fruit that isn't up to table standards will reappear with the bad bit cut off in a fruit salad or if enough of them in jam or pies.

They have had to share bath water before when the tanks got low.

Every year we get flooded in at home. Last time there was no way of resupplying anything for a week or more. It wasnt' a problem to us. I stock up for those times. Fresh bread doesn't worry us. We can make it or an even better damper.

Life may be that little bit harder some days in the bush but I wouldn't swap it for the city. I had to giggle at the waste of money the council recently spent on a forum here to decide how they could better cope with flooding. For goodness sake. When you can't get more than 200 metres from your front gate for flooding there is no use installing a make shift shop 10k's away. The money would be better spent ensuring mobile phone reception for those who are flooded in to be able to call for help if needed. Spend the money educating people how to survive for themselves.

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#1006411 - 16/08/2011 23:55 Re: Eat Less Meat!!! [Re: bundybear]
SBT Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 07/02/2007
Posts: 14126
Loc: Townsville Dry Tropics
Yes I agree that we have turned into a nation of softies. My grandfather was basically indentured for 7 years hard labour with the WA Dairy Corporation in 1928. Be very carefull about ticking boxes on postcards requesting more information about 10 acrce farms in the WA Bush or you could find that you have actually signed a consent to emmigrate and work for peanuts clearing tuart forrests and turning them into dairy farms. He and his family survived in the WA Bush by eating what he could catch/trap/snare and having been a "Wild Life Redistibution Manager" (Poacher) in England he had little trouble seeing that his family was well fed. My dad was also a bit of a handy forager and I have inherited some of his skills but not anywhere near my late grandads ability. Like "Hey Michael would you like to see how I catch trout in the Collie River"? Needless to say it involed a borrowed tennis net, a dead roo, some fencing wire and lots of maggots but no fishing lines. (And he never got caught in over 60 years) I have tucked into my share of "Black Duck" - swan - without knowing what it was, roo, rabbit and real ducks. In all that time his mainstay was meat with whatever veges they could eke out of the poor soil.

I killed and butchered my first sheep, a 'killer' as a 17 year old in 1974 and have done in many times since then, I hunt and fish for recreation. I can kill quickly without causing distress as that is what makes meat tough and I can do it humanely. I take no great pleasure in taking a life but if that is what it takes to provide my family with food then I am capable of doing it. I eat what I kill/catch.

Hunger makes you a quick learner grandad always used to say.
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Best 79mm 16/1/17
2017 Total 485mm
2016 Total 649mm
2015 Total 375mm







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#1006936 - 19/08/2011 17:41 Re: Eat Less Meat!!! [Re: SBT]
MC Thomas Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 06/12/2004
Posts: 1119
Loc: Melbourne
I think I must be one of those softies. I have never killed a warm-blooded animal nor do I want to. But then I eat meat so what does that make me? I am happy to catch, kill and clean fish, that's my limit.

I totally agree though, most people get meat from a supermarket were it is all nice and clean. This really creates a seperation from where the meat actually comes from, which is an animal!

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#1006973 - 19/08/2011 21:31 Re: Eat Less Meat!!! [Re: MC Thomas]
ROM Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 29/01/2007
Posts: 6628
MCT, I'm an old country guy. I eat a lot of meat. I have killed numerous animals both small and large, both tame and vermin and worst of all over the years, some loved personal and family pets.

I used to kill our farm sheep for meat for my household.
Nearly always except for some very cruel and nasty killers, I did that killing with a near sickening revulsion at the thought that I was taking the life of a living animal, a living even thinking animal that like myself knew fear, could express joy as they gamboled around, could show hate when they attacked a common enemy, could show affection for one of their own kind and sometimes even for those not of their own, could show true loyalty as I have seen even a wild galah remain for days along side of his / her road killed mate, something that really tore at my heart.

I would look at the eyes of those animals and could see the intelligence that is a part of and the reason for "life".

Yes, I also am a softie and don't regret it one little bit

And yet I and my family also had to eat to survive and just like every other omnivore on this planet I also had to kill those further down the food chain to live so kill I very reluctantly did until I could no longer stomach the killing and just let somebody else perhaps less squeamish than myself do the killing and that perhaps in a kinder and more humane way using a stun gun before the animal was slaughtered.

But I could also at times kill without compunction such as crows [ more correctly Ravens ] which took out the eyes of the ewes while they were down and giving birth and then those same crows would attack the new born lamb and kill it by pecking it to death or i could very happily kill foxes which ate just the tongues of new born lambs which mean't a terrible slow death for those lambs.
I could and did kill rabbits in their dozens and hundreds and thousands for what they did in destroying so much wild life here in Australia by stripping it bare during the great rabbit plagues of yesteryear.
I have killed thousands of stinking utterly revolting plague mice.
I have and will kill wild and feral cats at every opportunity and very occasionally a wandering domestic cat which does lead to somebody wondering where their beloved puddy tat might have gone. But if you ever saw what a hunting cat does to small defenseless creatures and birds then you also would kill them without any compunction.

Sadly, killing is a part of natural order of events and of Nature. It always has been. It always will be.
Those vegetarians who are so full of and so sure of their righteousness just simply don't even comprehend that those non animal products they are so fixated on were grown at the expense of lives of billions of tiny creatures whose habitats and lives were destroyed so that others further, much further up the food chain could acquire and eat what they believed and demanded as their right. Or those tiny critters were destroyed by the chemicals used to grow those non animal products.

Just because the tiny critters may not be visible to the naked eye and just because they are not furry and cuddly and photogenic, does that make those tiny critters less important than the fury cuddly, photogenic creatures so beloved of the do gooders and the environmentalists ?
Truth is that those tiny barely visible and even tinnier invisible critters in their immense numbers far beyond measure are far more important to mankind and the planet that any of the furry, cuddly, photogenic creatures so beloved of all the do gooders of this planet.
And yet their lives are not counted in the eyes of so much of humanity and we kill them in their billions so that we might eat and survive.
Nature, red in tooth and claw. Always has been! Always will be! And we are just another part of nature.

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#1007038 - 20/08/2011 16:11 Re: Eat Less Meat!!! [Re: ROM]
Sara B Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 30/01/2011
Posts: 318
Loc: Dugandan
As an omnivore I feel I have an advantage but admittedly I have also been vegetarian/vegan in the past mostly due to health reasons as opposed to environmental or ethical - though I can totally see the validity of all arguments. Its strange but lately cow meat smells really off to me - it seems to carry with it the stench of death & [censored]... and trust me when something like that assails the senses - you won't eat it. It's a big turn off - as a result I am eating less and less red meat. I would like to try locally produced and farm butchered pig /cow meat as opposed to buying meat that has been killed and processed through an'abattoir'. Since seeing the trembling face of that mooie that was subjected to watching it's brethren killed and cut up in front of it's very eyes something has changed inside of me. Once that awareness and change happens -there is no going back so I am embracing this change in myself and seeing it as an opportunity to eat ethically.

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#1007058 - 20/08/2011 18:56 Re: Eat Less Meat!!! [Re: Sara B]
ROM Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 29/01/2007
Posts: 6628
You really spoilt your very valid comments Chunky by closing with "to eat ethically".
The use of term "to eat ethically" in the context of this discussion on eating meat would, I think, generally be a highly emotive term most used by those who are intolerant of any other opinions, beliefs and behavior that does not fall into line with their own strongly held personal beliefs on what you should and should not be allowed to eat.
And those same "ethically correct" persons as a consequence both hypocritically and and shamelessly attempt to use highly emotive language as propaganda to try and induce a feeling of guilt in others as well as elevating their own highly self esteemed and self centred selves to some high moral ground that is far superior to the shamelessly guilt free, food of all kinds consuming proletariat that indulges in this disgusting meat eating behavior and consequently is far beneath their "ethically" and "morally superior" non meat eating selves.

Chunky, I would be really surprised if you actually mean't to use "ethically" in the context of this discussion in the way you did as that hard line is not how the rest of your post reads at all. And it was a post I could understand and sympathise with your feelings and your reactions at least until those last couple of words.

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#1007171 - 21/08/2011 12:10 Re: Eat Less Meat!!! [Re: ROM]
Sara B Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 30/01/2011
Posts: 318
Loc: Dugandan
You don't have the right to judge me or my opinion and target me personally. I suggest that you start reading up on what 'Bullying, Harassment & Discrimination' actually is - because there are actually very real legal implications associated with trauma & victimisation. Lately there are many people like you - out on the prowl - looking for a victim. Please don't take your anger and frustration out on me as I find it unacceptable.
If I feel that killing animals in an abattoir is unethical - based on my growing awareness - then that is my opinion - based on my own thoughts and feelings on the matter. I have every right to an opinion and every right to state my opinion on a public forum. You have every right to have a different opinion but instead you are attacking me and it makes me feel like I cannot post here without being on the butt end of your aggression. Bullying is a form of violence and is detrimental to human health & wellbeing. If you wanted to discuss your opinion on ethical eating - and what that means to you or by referring to factual information - please go ahead. Noone is stopping you.
You could and should do that without denigrating my own personal viewpoint on what ethical eating is. What you are doing is trying to use a form of bullying to stop healthy discussion and in fact you have gone a step further and are assuming that you have the right to judge me. I'll be judged in a court of law or by God himself... but not by you.
Cheers


Edited by chunkyluxtrax (21/08/2011 12:20)
Edit Reason: Speciesism results in monoculture...

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#1007174 - 21/08/2011 12:39 Re: Eat Less Meat!!! [Re: Sara B]
ROM Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 29/01/2007
Posts: 6628
Chunky, apologies if it seemed to you that I was attacking you. I never intended that in any way.
I read your post and for the greatest part of it I could understand your feelings and reactions and I respected that and had absolutely no problem with that but I was non plussed by your ending as the rest of your post never came across as tending to extremes. Rather to me you were merely expressing your personal choice and to me, quite acceptable beliefs on your food choices which is entirely your right and your right to do so without interference or moralising on mine or anybody else's part.
All that until those final words.

I stand by my comments on the use of terms like "to eat ethically" as that immediately implies that somehow the writer of those words is morally and infinitely superior in their own opinion to those who do not chose to live the way the writer does and frankly I also am sick of being somehow branded as an evil doer by many do- gooders [ which you didn't do and which I didn't class you as a do-gooder at all and still don't ] for eating the way that nearly all of mankind still prefers to eat and the way that mankind and his ancestors long before him have lived and eaten for maybe a couple of million years past.


Edited by ROM (21/08/2011 12:49)

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#1007282 - 21/08/2011 23:38 Re: Eat Less Meat!!! [Re: ROM]
Markus Offline
Weatherzone Moderator

Registered: 02/12/2010
Posts: 2030
Loc: Clare, SA
ROM im glad your one of the people who respect the smaller creatures as they play huge roles in the ecological sustainability of their particular area.
One thing i want to explain from my personal point of view which i may have come across differently in my previous post is the killing of animals side of things. When I go shooting it only ever has two purposes, conservation hunting and obtaining food. I personally dont enjoy ending somethings life but if it means saving the rightful inhabitants of the area then im all for it. When it comes to butchering that really isnt a nice job and i would certainly perfer to not to have to do it but since the meat is used an not wasted then theres no wrong to be done. However people who go out to shoot kangaroos in the hundreds and leave them there to die well i feel disgrace for them.

I just believe that a mixture of meat and vegetation should present in everyones diet as its what we are designed to eat
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#1007285 - 21/08/2011 23:57 Re: Eat Less Meat!!! [Re: ROM]
Sara B Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 30/01/2011
Posts: 318
Loc: Dugandan
Originally Posted By: ROM
Chunky, apologies

Accepted.
I'm not really interested in entering debate about superiority... because I think that detracts from the focus - which for me is on the wellbeing of the cow. My ideas of ethical eating are pretty simplistic at this point in time but that might change into the future according to circumstance or situation.

Generally- I want food in my belly that has been cared for: all the animals needs met and from an animal that is happy. When I look around CQ in any paddock, any one of those cows would fit that description. But beyond that I want the cow to be round up from it's happy life foraging around the field, in a way that is sensitive to the animals wellbeing, including it's feelings. We all know when animals are distressed because we can recogise signs in their behaviour. I think current transport modes to abbattoirs are generally a little stressful to the animal depending on the distances travelled and the level of care provided. Smaller producers that transport their own animals can obviously exercise more control. The situation for a farm butchered cow will probably involve several cows rather than hundreds so transport mode is probably more diverse and needs looking at on a case by case basis.

Then when the animal enters the abbatoir holding yards I would like to think that there is also a level of appropriate care provided in the form of food, water, shade and barriers /seperation from the killing areas. Ideally the cows are spoken to in a kind manner and treated gently.... it's been so long since i have been in an abattoir - probably about time I go and check it all out again. As for the slaughtering practice, I again would prefer that the cow is treated with respect and not just as flesh.
This animal has happily wandered the fields for most of it's life, and has family relationships with the other cows as well as with it's owner. I often see cattle running up to the gate if they think their owner is arriving (anticipating some tasty treat no doubt) and I have also seen how the cows mourn when some of their kin are taken away... so yeh for me ethical means being conscious of the fact that the cow is actually a living being that has sensibilities & feelings. I feel like cows are good natured beings, peaceful and docile and they deserve to be treated equivilant to any other animal with respects to welfare & animal rights. As for whether they have thoughts I do not know.... I have never ever seen a cow look up at the sky to watch a passing plane... but if anyone else out there has seen that behaviour, please let me know because I have often wondered about it. Obviously their feed is on the ground so thats where they focus most of their attention.
anyways back to the slaughter... I would like to see practices that reduce the level of distress to the animal. In the abattoir it is such a processed operation, no doubt it becomes very mechanical for the operators and the wellbeing of the animal is not exactly the high priority whereas cleanliness and efficiency probably would be.
I don't think it is asking too much to ensure that cows do not see the cows in front of them being slaughtered and cut apart, there should be some mechanism for maintaining separation and to ensure they are not overhearing or sensing the distress /fear of the cows that went before them. I think smell must also play an important part where it is probably obvious to the cows that 'something is up' when they smell blood /guts of other cows. So washing down between cows or whetever other mechanisms to reduce the impact.. Ensuring the cows are blissfully unaware of whats about to happen is important to me and any effort to stun, sedate or desensitise the cow prior to the event would be my personal preference. Ultimately the cow will be killed - I know thats not pretty...

So for me, not suggesting that anyone needs to take my opinion on board, I take issue with the processing of cattle as a meat product without any consideration of their being, their life, their feelings. I think that we need to respect the cows that will feed us and that the good care that farmers provide to their cattle should be carried on through to the slaughter. I mean it's not like cattle can be debriefed before hand or anything but geez they are living beings and I cannot help but identify with their pain and fear. I am not criticising those people who do not feel the same way - I am just trying to explain where I am coming from. The products that suit other people will not necessarily suit everyone. In this day and age consumer power is growing and personally I am going to be a discerning customer and want to source products from animals - who in every aspect of their living state have been treated with respect.
Thats why I said in earlier post that I want to source farm butchered meat. I have friends who all go in for a few cows and put them on a mates property and then someone looks after them, they normally employ a farm butcher to do the killing and my brother-inlaw helps with the butchering because he is qualifed - then they all divy it up and have meat all year round. So for me thats a much more acceptable practice though I understand not everyone can source meat in this way and that majority of people rely on the supermarket/ local butcher.

As for my distant ancestors, they would have sourced food from the wild, most of them probably subsisted on bread & potatoes (lol) and would have kept their own animals if indeed they even had that luxury. I believe agricultural practises have changed significantly in the last 200 years due to the globalisation of trade.. so the wider debate of meat-eating is not something I am even talking about here.

Going back to ethical eating, I kind of like the hunterer gatherer method which is pretty much impossible in this day and age - but the kangaroo harvest by singleshot to the head for example represents a method that I feel is acceptable. The roo never knows what is coming probably feels no pain. These days there is probably no way for the roo to know it's being hunted but I also imagine that indigenous hunters had to use great skill and cunning to catch their prey and I kind of like the idea that the wild animal also has the chance to get away - hunters do not always get their kill. Just seems more natural to me, more reflecting of the true connection that humans have with their environment & prey and I can't help but having that as a preference.

But again - just so noone thinks I am implying that they do not eat ethically - this is just my version of ethical eating... I don't generally discriminate on practices for veges, pesticide free local grown is the best and we have plenty of it locally. I do prefer free range chickens and eggs...I love wild caught reef fish and with my uncle being a spear fisherman and enjoying fishing myself - that's another bonus of living in my region...

anyways ROM - I simply accept that everyone is different because that helps me get by in this world -
If you do want to explore the opinions on ethical eating that are out there, here are a few links
http://www.sustainableinsight.com.au/shop/ethical-eating-by-angela-crocombe-260-page-book.html
http://www.apo.org.au/video/rosemary-stanton-ethical-eating
http://www.bfa.com.au/Portals/0/BFAFiles/PDFs/p18-19%20Ethical%20Eating.pdf
http://www.abc.net.au/landline/content/2006/s2024960.htm
as you can see there is a lot of divergence and diversity in this topic - personally it is of very recent interest to me and I am really at the information gathering stage because currently that is not how I am living my life... change doesn't happen overnight.. and I need to work out what is practical, achievable and affordable for me and inevitably my version of eating ethically may not actually be the same as anyone elses anyway.
I respect every individuals right to exercise free choice on the matter so pls respect my right to have my own opinions. I breathe the same air as everyone else, no different really.


Edited by chunkyluxtrax (22/08/2011 00:07)

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