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#678293 - 31/03/2003 23:12 Re: {WAR HAS BEGUN}
Quetzalcoatl Offline
Member

Registered: 16/06/2002
Posts: 575
Loc: Eaglehawk
You are listening to KICK, the home of Kickback Radio, where you ain't never gonna have a doubt about whether or not the rage is being maintained.

Welcome to the Kickback late show on this droughtbound, war-cursed Monday of the New Moon. We have Q back with us this evening to sing us his latest song. This one should do well for the war effort on the home front. Over to you Q.

Q: Thank-you very much. Just a few thoughts before I begin.

These are funny days and people are doing funny things. At a barbecue on the weekend, I heard a state Labor politician suggest that Saddam's regime may have been responsible for the bombing of market places in Baghdad. I can assure you that he didn't go unconfronted on that one!

It got me to thinking later though. Seemingly, here is a Labor man who is caught in a kind of middle-ground limbo with regards to the conflict in Iraq, unable to stand apart from the sentiment of the rural people that he represents, yet having to tread the party line of opposing Australia's involvement in the conflict. Perhaps he doesn't have to worry too much about the moral issues in Australia's war, being only a state politician.

Well, I like the guy, you know, and so I started thinking that maybe I am the one with some perceptual problems to sort out. Maybe I am being unfair to the average Australian country person by nature of my extreme anti-war sentiments. These are nice, honest people but they seem to like a good war, especially one with such noble pursuits as to free the terrorized people of Iraq.

This newfound belief in my failings was reinforced in a country pub this same weekend. I was maintaining the rage verbally to all and sundry, in amongst singing some songs, until the publican threatened to throw me out for "talking politics in the pub". I protested that I was talking moral issues but he wouldn't have a bar of that. So I had to shut up and stick to music. Yeah, I guess I'm just a troublemaker out here in the bush.

So, after a weekend of being bad, I felt a need to make reparations for my appalling world view. How better to do that than to write a song, as a gift to the pro-war people of the land. I want them to know that I am not totally biased, that I'd still like to walk amongst them as a free man.

I thought of what it is like inside their minds, how they see the war and how they'd like to see it go, how they might be imagining what it would be like to be one of the leaders of the Coalition and what they might say to the Iraqis in that capacity, and I came up with this:


Now listen up, you Iraqi dudes
We ain't bombing you for your crude
We're helping you out, this ain't no lie
Doing it with the man in the sky

(chorus, after each verse):
You might think it's a Hollywood script
What we're saying to you
That don't matter, we're gonna win
Coalition come bring freedom to you

Now listen up, you Iraqi chaps
Your man's regime has gotta collapse
Give up now and don't make a fuss
Hand your leaders over to us

Now listen up, you Iraqis, mate
We gotta stop you before too late
Oz is jumping on the freedom bus
Invading you before you do us

Now listen up, you Iraqi folk
You better give up, this ain't no joke
We got the power 'n we got the might
We got democracy, we got the right

Now listen up, you Iraqi men
You can have a box or maybe a pen
If you survive, you're only gonna go
To learn about freedom in Guantanamo

Now listen up, you Iraqi dudes
We ain't bombing you for your crude
We're helping you out, this ain't no lie
Doing it with the man in the sky


Good stuff Q. You keep on taking them anti-war pills now. Don't go away folks, stay tuned to KICK for the latest Kickback anti-propaganda news.

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#678294 - 01/04/2003 08:32 Re: {WAR HAS BEGUN}
Stormspell Offline
Member

Registered: 08/01/2003
Posts: 130
Loc: Brisbane
Hello everyone,

I read this today:
An extract from "Diary from Baghdad" by Neville Watson who is a peace protester living in Iraq:

Friday March 21

"Someone today asked me how I was. I thought I was doing well until a few moments ago, when I took a call from some Australian radio shock jock who spoke of collateral damage and me being misguided. The latter I can cope with but to suggest that the death of my Iraqi friends could be described as collateral damage - no way!!
I gave him both barrels, which is hardly the way for a non-violent activist to respond. I can offer no excuses except that I've just been bombed out of my bed and I am somewhat sensitive to having death described as collateral damage."

Monday March 24

"The world will soon forget the bombing of Iraq, but a certain little six year old never will. We visited her in hospital along with 70 other victims of the bombing. Not all the missiles are of pinpoint accuracy.

The six year old girl affected me the most. She was injured during the bombing on March 21. The woman doctor spoke excellent English and told us that a piece of shrapnel hit her in the back and nows she's a paraplegic. I looked at her frail little body, the glazed eyes and her anxious mother, and I remembered how I had reacted to the radio shock jock who had spoken of collateral damage.

At the time I regretted my somewhat angry language. Looking now at the little figure in the bed I forgave myselfand thought of a question I had been asked in a radio interview: 'Don't you think the bombing is worth it to get rid os Saddam Hussein?' I wonder whether he would be prepared to offer up his six year old on the altar of war?

And so we come to another day having no idea what it will bring for us. May God have mercy on humankind - for we know precisely what we are doing. We are destroying the sacredness of human life".

Neville Watson, Baghdad.

I heard last night that the red cross have estimated around 3500 Iraqi civilian deaths/injuries so far and with 46% of the population under 16 that is likely to be a lot of children.

Whatever your politics are, the important thing here is that innocent children are dying and being injured in horrific ways. How can this possibly be worth it to get rid of Saddam Hussein.

SS.

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#678295 - 01/04/2003 13:12 Re: {WAR HAS BEGUN}
bigwilly Offline
Weatherzone Mod and Photog

Registered: 25/09/2002
Posts: 6543
Loc: Junee - just north of the 'Bid...
Well apart from the fact that Suddam was doing things like this and worse to his own people anyway, its kinda like ripping off a band aid: get rid of suddam in one huge assault, and it doesn't hurt as much over the long term, but then peel the band aid off slowly and you get a lot more pain over a greater amount of time.
Sure we can say oh my god the coalition will kill/injure 50 000 civillians over the course of this war but at the end of it the killing will stop. On the other hand we can do what we have been doing over the past 12 years and give him more time, and he will kill that number this year, the year after and the year after, and will continue to kill until he is gone.
So would you prefer to stand by over the next 10 years and let 500 000 civillians be injured/killed? Or would you prefer to act now, unfortunately taking the lives of 50 000 but make that the end of the sensless killing.
Add up the totals, on one hand you kill/injure 500 000, on the other you kill 50 000.

:cheers: BW

Katoomba Weather Photography
_________________________
YTD Rainfall = 281.0mm (Avg to March 117.0mm)
MTD rainfall March = 34.7mm(Avg 41.3mm)
February 2011 total = 203.9mm (Avg 37.8mm)
2010 Rainfall: 759.3mm (Annual Avg: 521.5mm)

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#678296 - 01/04/2003 14:39 Re: {WAR HAS BEGUN}
Stormspell Offline
Member

Registered: 08/01/2003
Posts: 130
Loc: Brisbane
Where are you getting this information from?

So Saddam is killing 50,000 people a year is he? I don't know whether this is true so I wont argue with you there. I'm not saying that Saddam shouldn't be removed , I think you misunderstood. What I am saying is that there has to be another way. After all what has been tried, oh yes economic sanctions, ultimatums + bombing. You'd think we were in the dark ages. If America's intelligence is so good that they knew that Saddam was in a particular palace on the first day of the bombing, why the hell can't they just take him out without blowing the limbs off and killing thousands of people whose only wrong is that they just happen to be there. Have they really tried or would it make more economic sense for the US to have a "war". If they "win" this war look what they have to gain.

Whilst I dont think that Saddam was a direct threat to Australia (until we got involved) and whilst I am certain that the US motivation has nothing to do with "freeing the Iraqi people" I agree that their lives would probably be better with Saddam gone but where's their choice? Do they get to choose whether to risk their childrens lives in a warzone for the sake of a regime change? NO.

How would you feel if some Iraqi decided that it was OK if your child was paralysed, so other children in this country didn't have to suffer in the future. Would you be happy that somebody you didn't know on the other side of the world decided that your childs life/wellbeing was worth the sacrifice? I dont think so!

confused frown
SS.

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#678297 - 02/04/2003 00:34 Re: {WAR HAS BEGUN}
Quetzalcoatl Offline
Member

Registered: 16/06/2002
Posts: 575
Loc: Eaglehawk
What I've been trying to point out guys, when you think about it, now that the name Saddam Hussein is being used so freely, is that he is just ONE MAN. How easy it is for some people to have no compassion for the blown-up lives of so many innocent Iraqi civilians in the quest to rid these "collaterals" of their oppressor. ONE MAN!

So, to Iraq, come aggressors to replace oppressors.

And around comes the wheel of history once again to the time of the dark heart of humanity.

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#678298 - 02/04/2003 04:02 Re: {WAR HAS BEGUN}
Justaminute Offline
Member

Registered: 15/02/2001
Posts: 3649
Loc: Sydney
Simplistic Q............it is the opression the Iraqi people are suffering under that is being dealt with Hussein the evil leader is no more than that an evil leader.
I did ask you previously is there anything that you like about this country....not that I really care but I am interested in just what keeps you here. You appear so lamentably disenchanted.

Ashton

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#678299 - 02/04/2003 07:31 Re: {WAR HAS BEGUN}
Ballbreaker Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 20/12/2002
Posts: 52
He's probably fascinated by the shingles thread.

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#678300 - 02/04/2003 07:34 Re: {WAR HAS BEGUN}
Ballbreaker Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 20/12/2002
Posts: 52
Great posts Q, you are a free thinker and courageous, keep them coming.

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#678301 - 02/04/2003 07:39 Re: {WAR HAS BEGUN}
bigwilly Offline
Weatherzone Mod and Photog

Registered: 25/09/2002
Posts: 6543
Loc: Junee - just north of the 'Bid...
Stormspell, I was merely using those figures as examples. I have no idea how many people are killed each year under Suddam's regime.
Q, its all very well and nicely simplistic to say well why don't they just send someone in to take out Suddam. Once you take out Suddam you have to take out his body doubles, his sons, and his henchman.

:cheers: BW

Katoomba Weather Photography
_________________________
YTD Rainfall = 281.0mm (Avg to March 117.0mm)
MTD rainfall March = 34.7mm(Avg 41.3mm)
February 2011 total = 203.9mm (Avg 37.8mm)
2010 Rainfall: 759.3mm (Annual Avg: 521.5mm)

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#678302 - 02/04/2003 14:51 Re: {WAR HAS BEGUN}
Stormspell Offline
Member

Registered: 08/01/2003
Posts: 130
Loc: Brisbane
Fair enouhg,

I agree with you here BigW. Even if Saddam has been killed (as is the rumour) they will still keep on fighting. Most of the generals are related to Saddam anyway and will peretuate his regime even if hes gone.

SS

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#678303 - 02/04/2003 17:40 Re: {WAR HAS BEGUN}
Quetzalcoatl Offline
Member

Registered: 16/06/2002
Posts: 575
Loc: Eaglehawk
Sheesh ... and they label me "simplistic" ... guys, I'm finding it hard to maintain the rage if I'm chuckling all the time. I mean, it would all be so funny if it wasn't so serious.

I mean, when I see Dubya and his henchmen on TV and listen to their spoutings, I am struck with awe and wonder at how so-called intelligent beings can deliver such nonsensical truth and expect a majority of people to actually believe it. And then to discover that so many of my fellow citizens are buying it right up ... well, I'm quite flabbergasted really.

Yeah, give me the simple life. This society is becoming far too complex for me to understand anymore.

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#678304 - 02/04/2003 18:02 Re: {WAR HAS BEGUN}
Quetzalcoatl Offline
Member

Registered: 16/06/2002
Posts: 575
Loc: Eaglehawk
With regards to justification for Australia's invasion of Iraq, I have a question here which should challenge trivia hounds.

When was the last time that Iraq invaded Australia?

Was it:
(a) in 1991?
(b) in 2001?
(c) in 1975?
(d) in 1787?
(e) in the Mesozoic?
(f) all or none of the above, what difference does it make?

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#678305 - 02/04/2003 21:27 Re: {WAR HAS BEGUN}
richard Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/09/2002
Posts: 24
Loc: Monaro
Hey Q
Just curious of what you think of your mate, Mr S Hussain's treatment of the Kurds, women and Children?
When your in a corner do you push the women and kids up front to take the Heat? Than jump out front to take the applause!
Will you cut out my tongue is I dare dissagree with you?
To you find offensive that Australia might test chemical weapons on Tasmaina?
Is you computer you best friend?
Does your best friend run a health food store?
Hussain may not have recently invaded a neighbouring country but be certainly has declared the equilivent of 'war' on all the Minority groups and women in Iraq, I believe we should support the oppressed.
R :cheers:

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#678306 - 02/04/2003 22:51 Re: {WAR HAS BEGUN}
seaweed Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 13/10/2001
Posts: 1561
Loc: Robina SEQ
Hey Richard
Just curious of what you think of Turkey's treatment of the Kurds, women and Children? Did you know they have killed more kurds than Iraqi's.? We are talking about Civil War here. Did you know that over 600,000 American's died when their nation had a civil war? Do you cast judgement of America because of that epidode?
Do you find offensive that America might test Nuclear weapons on it's own servicemen? Do you find Australia's treatment of Maralinga servicemen a problem?

Quote "Hussain may not have recently invaded a neighbouring country but be certainly has declared the equilivent of 'war' on all the Minority groups and women in Iraq, I believe we should support the oppressed."

Well actually he did invade a neighbouring country (Iran & Kuwait), but if you are going to support invading his country, you should (by your own logic) also support the invasion of Turkey, because it to has been oppressing minorities.
My question has always been "where does this all end?" Heck, even Taiwan of all places has a idigenous minority that has been oppressed. Then there is the Innuits, the Chechyans, the Shi ites in Southern Iraq, the African pygmies etc etc, why don't we throw in the Australian Aborigines for good measure. The west can be the world's great liberators, and it's most hated people.....

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#678307 - 02/04/2003 23:28 Re: {WAR HAS BEGUN}
bigwilly Offline
Weatherzone Mod and Photog

Registered: 25/09/2002
Posts: 6543
Loc: Junee - just north of the 'Bid...
I have to agree with Seaweed there. What I fear most about this war is that Bush has opened a pandora's box, bitten off more than he can chew. Once Iraq is over, then he will have to move onto other countires like Syria, Iran, Nth Korea etc. This could just about assure that the people of earth will be suffering the consequences of war for the next 10 or more years. frown

:cheers: BW

Katoomba Weather Photography
_________________________
YTD Rainfall = 281.0mm (Avg to March 117.0mm)
MTD rainfall March = 34.7mm(Avg 41.3mm)
February 2011 total = 203.9mm (Avg 37.8mm)
2010 Rainfall: 759.3mm (Annual Avg: 521.5mm)

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#678308 - 03/04/2003 17:27 Re: {WAR HAS BEGUN}
Quetzalcoatl Offline
Member

Registered: 16/06/2002
Posts: 575
Loc: Eaglehawk
"The whole world is watching us die" (portions of a larger article)

********************

On March 31, there was a massacre of civilians, mainly women and their children, whose crime was that they were driving on a roadway in their own country. As their van approached a checkpoint, U.S. soldiers destroyed their vehicle with a barrage of 25mm cannon fire from one or more of their M2 Bradley Fighting Vehicles. The Washington Post quoted Capt. Ronny Johnson of the Army's 3rd Infantry Division in his series of orders to the troops present:
- "Fire a warning shot"
- "Stop [messing] around!"
- "Stop him, Red 1, stop him!"
- "Cease fire!"
- "You just [expletive] killed a family because you didn't fire a warning shot soon enough!"

The "shoot first ask questions later" strategy is not the result of spontaneous actions by scared and edgy troops. These are orders given the troops from the Pentagon high command.

"Everyone is now seen as a combatant until proven otherwise," a Pentagon official is quoted in the Washington Post of April 1, 2003. The Pentagon recognizes that the shift in tactics will be understood as a brutal escalation of force against the civilian population and that their earlier posture as "liberators" will be exposed. "You'll see acts of kindness, medical care and the like, but the large scale aid effort will have to wait," a Pentagon official told the Washington Post. In fact the new U.S. strategy now is deliberately preventing Iraqi civilians in Nassiriya and other towns from receiving food and water unless they cooperate with the occupation forces.

U.S. Marine Operations Commander Lt. Colonel Paul Roche told reporters on March 31 that the U.S. strategy towards the people of the city of Nassiriya included the use of food and water as a weapon to terrorize and break the will of the civilian population.

In the April 1 front page of the Washington Post, the Pentagon's new strategy is euphemistically referred to in the headline "U.S. troops instructed to use tougher tactics."

The assault against civilians is being reported in greater detail and honesty by the world media outside the United States. This change in U.S. tactics is, as the following report shows, encouraging the most racist and homicidal tendencies among U.S. soldiers at the front.

********************

It is important to read the following passage from the UK Times of Sunday, March 30. It reports of a gruesome scene outside of Nassiriya. Some fifteen vehicles, including a minivan and a couple of trucks, were found destroyed and riddled with bullets by the Times UK reporter Mark Franchetti:

"Amid the wreckage I counted 12 dead civilians, lying in the road or in nearby ditches. All had been trying to leave this southern town overnight, probably for fear of being killed by US helicopter attacks and heavy artillery.

"Their mistake had been to flee over a bridge that is crucial to the coalition's supply lines and to run into a group of shell-shocked young American marines with orders to shoot anything that moved.

"One man's body was still in flames. It gave out a hissing sound. Tucked away in his breast pocket, thick wads of banknotes were turning to ashes. His savings, perhaps.

"Down the road, a little girl, no older than five and dressed in a pretty orange and gold dress, lay dead in a ditch next to the body of a man who may have been her father. Half his head was missing.

"Nearby, in a battered old Volga, peppered with ammunition holes, an Iraqi woman - perhaps the girl's mother - was dead, slumped in the back seat. A US Abrams tank nicknamed Ghetto Fabulous drove past the bodies.

"This was not the only family who had taken what they thought was a last chance for safety. A father, baby girl and boy lay in a shallow grave. On the bridge itself a dead Iraqi civilian lay next to the carcass of a donkey."

The UK Times article also documents that in Iraq, just as in Vietnam, the U.S. soldiers are being trained to wage war against a civilian population by dehumanizing those whom they are killing.

********************

"I'll Just Kill Him"

"As I walked away, Lieutenant Matt Martin, whose third child, Isabella, was born while he was on board ship en route to the Gulf, appeared beside me.

" 'Did you see all that?' he asked, his eyes filled with tears. 'Did you see that little baby girl? I carried her body and buried it as best I could but I had no time. It really gets to me to see children being killed like this, but we had no choice.'

"Martin's distress was in contrast to the bitter satisfaction of some of his fellow marines as they surveyed the scene. 'The Iraqis are sick people and we are the chemotherapy,' said Corporal Ryan Dupre. 'I am starting to hate this country. Wait till I get hold of a friggin' Iraqi. No, I won't get hold of one. I'll just kill him.' "

********************

Reuters

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#678309 - 03/04/2003 20:28 Re: {WAR HAS BEGUN}
whynot Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 01/10/2001
Posts: 539
Loc: Brisbane
Mr SOMYUREK (Eumemmerring) - As a member of the Victorian Parliament who is of Muslim background I call on the Muslim communities of Victoria to support our troops unconditionally against the bloodthirsty, evil tyrant who is Saddam Hussein. Let us not forget that Saddam Hussein's actions are not and never have been motivated by Islam or Muslim values. In fact almost all of his victims have been Muslim peoples such as Kurds, Shiite Arabs and Turkomans. Some of the most powerful men in his regime, such as Tarik Aziz, are Christian.

Source: Parliament Of Victoria Hansard

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#678310 - 03/04/2003 20:29 Re: {WAR HAS BEGUN}
whynot Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 01/10/2001
Posts: 539
Loc: Brisbane
It is indeed tragic that diplomacy has failed, but there are times when the use of force may be legitimate in the pursuit of peace.

Statement By U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan

(Comment: I might add at a time when the UN also sat on its collective hands during another civilian slaughter.)

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#678311 - 03/04/2003 20:34 Re: {WAR HAS BEGUN}
whynot Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 01/10/2001
Posts: 539
Loc: Brisbane
PARIS On Thursday, a working-group meeting on how to seize opportunities in Iraqi reconstruction was scheduled here by Medef, the organization of major French industrialists. The meeting was canceled last weekend after discussions between the French government and Medef's head, Ernst-Antoine Seilliere.

"Too early, too high-profile," Seillere reportedly ruled, especially since France has been too close to Baghdad under the regime of Saddam Hussein and too estranged from a Washington at war.



TotalFinaElf, the French oil giant, which has signed a colossal contract with Saddam's government for future rights to Iraqi oil fields. The deal, whose terms remain a commercial secret, would have gone into effect once sanctions were lifted on Iraq. French officials have vowed to defend the contract in international arbitration, while the Bush administration charges that the French company stood to gain a lopsided premium for working with a rogue regime.

"French companies that know Iraq well - like the carmaker Peugeot and the telecom giant Alcatel - have a problem because their contacts and allies tend to be linked with the Ba'ath party rulers, who are liable to be on the wrong side in a new Iraq," a French diplomat said.


Source: IHT

(Comment: So the peaceful French still want to get their hands on Iraq oil? I always thought that the accused was George Bush. Maybe this article below why the French President was so anti-war.)

Reuters, 03.31.03, 4:00 PM ET


PARIS (Reuters) - Former Elf executives told a court on Monday the French oil giant had secretly financed President Jacques Chirac's former political party with the aim of winning political influence.

Chirac's former Rally for the Republic (RPR), now called the Union for the Popular Movement, was the party to receive the most illicit payments although others also benefited, the disgraced executives said.

Speaking on the seventh day of the biggest corporate graft trial in French history, the three executives all refused to name the recipients of the cash, which they said also went to presidential candidates.

"As far as politicians are concerned, at the time it went above all to the Gaullist party, the RPR," Loik Le Floch-Prigent, Elf head from 1989 to 1993, told the court.

The naming of Chirac's RPR party in the scandal came on the same day that one of his former aides was put under official investigation -- one step short of pressing charges under French law -- for "possession of embezzled public funds" in a corruption case dating back to Chirac's 1977-1995 stint as Paris mayor.

Chirac, whose first term as president was clouded by sleaze allegations, is protected by presidential immunity from standing trial or even being questioned as a witness in the graft cases.

The trial follows the sleaze allegations which surfaced over an arms for kickbacks scandal, which centered on the now notorious liaison between former Foreign Minister Roland Dumas and a woman who dubbed herself "The Whore of the Republic."

Elf was controlled by the state at the time of the scandal. It is now part of French oil firm TotalFinaElf.

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#678312 - 04/04/2003 12:04 Re: {WAR HAS BEGUN}
Quetzalcoatl Offline
Member

Registered: 16/06/2002
Posts: 575
Loc: Eaglehawk
Quote:
Originally posted by as029:
the bloodthirsty, evil tyrant who is Saddam Hussein.
Yes, Saddam gets such good press in the media of the "free world". There are many other Muslim people in both Australia and around the world who are condemning the coalition invasion of Iraq as brutal and unnecessary. And so, to free these poor oppressed people from Saddam Hussein, we are prepared to kill thousands of them --- freeing their souls first from their bodies.

People with dark hearts who lack compassion can easily support this crusade against just ONE MAN. They don't care how many innocent people die and what the global consequences of these deaths may be. All we have to do is be successful in getting Saddam and in bringing democracy to the oppressed people of Iraq.

I'd hate to disillusion any of you war idealists but I reckon we may have seen the death of true democracy in Australia recently. Anyone care to join the fight here to bring democracy back?

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