#1079936 - 23/02/2012 11:48
Re: Interesting news articles about AGW
[Re: __PG__]
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Weatherzone Addict
Registered: 29/01/2007
Loc: Horsham in western Victoria
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So according to you P-G if we take your statement to it's fullest meaning, the Heartland institute is guilty for allowing Gleick to do an identity theft, steal Heartland's internal documents, forge a fraudulent supposedly internal Heartland document and then spread all these documents far and wide which included personal details, private phone numbers, addresses and other private details which are sacrosanct under the privacy laws, of the directors and employees of Heartland.
And that is also a very serious criminal offence on top of the others and you continue on trying to discredit Heartland instead of condemning a criminal offense by one in your own likeness.
Have you any morals, ethics or conscience at all and can you differentiate the differences between good and bad or are you totally bereft of those human characteristics in your hatred of the skeptics?.
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#1079963 - 23/02/2012 13:37
Re: Interesting news articles about AGW
[Re: ROM]
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Weatherzone Addict
Registered: 10/02/2007
Loc: Just a bit north of the "coath...
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Under the First Amendment, the publication of ANY information obtained lawfully is protected. – and especially one where you can make a “public interest” case. You only can not publish information obtained unlawfully. Hence, Peter Gleick, who self-admittedly obtained the info illegally can not publish, but DeSmog Blog who appear to have received the information anonymously, can do what they like with it. And that’s probably fair enough… However, there is a wrinkle – if this information is then shown to be false and defamatory – then the First Amendment is no protection. Libel laws will apply. And hence why Heartland is sending out communications to each site citing, or linking to the docs explaining why and how they are false / defamatory, and why each site is carefully stating that they don’t believe that they are false / defamatory. It’s all a bit of a legal dance protecting future interests. See for example here: DeSmogBlog’s defenseThe IPCC was doing the same thing when their new ZOD and FOD drafts of their reports started circulating around the web. In the case of Gary W – well I guess that given the personal contact details of the directors and staff at Heartland were released, then they would probably have been swamped with “congratulations” on how effective they are on so little budget  LOL. So I’m guessing that the reply Gary W was just a “canned” reply sent to anyone so “congratulating” Heartland. [Who would bet that this was the only mail of this type that Heartland received?]
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Exceptions are pernicious, they conceal laws...
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#1080021 - 23/02/2012 17:44
Re: Interesting news articles about AGW
[Re: Arnost]
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Meteorological Motor Mouth
Registered: 16/12/2001
Loc: Kings Langley, NSW
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This is from New Scientist: THERE is a strong sense of déjà vu about what is emerging over leaked emails from the Heartland Institute. The US libertarian think tank, which argues that global warming is not primarily caused by humans, intends to develop teaching material that would cast doubt on the scientific consensus on climate change. Its approach is sadly reminiscent of fogging tactics employed by the tobacco industry and creationists.
Children should be taught honestly what we know about climate change, as well as what we don't know and where the uncertainties lie. Yet a plan outlined in documents allegedly from Heartland would build a curriculum around statements such as "whether humans are changing the climate is a major scientific controversy" (see "Climate sceptics may find fertile ground in US schools"). This is to create controversy where none exists.
There simply is no credible scientific alternative to the theory that humans are warming the atmosphere. In 2010, a survey of 1372 climate scientists found that 97 per cent of those who publish most frequently in the field were in no doubt. They agreed with the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change that human activity had caused most of Earth's warming over the second half of the 20th century. By comparison with these scientists, the climate expertise of the small group of contrarians was substantially lower (Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, DOI: 10.1073/pnas.1003187107).
In the face of such broad agreement, the leaked strategy smacks of tactics used by tobacco companies as the evidence linking smoking to fatal diseases continued to grow. They employed accusations of scientific conspiracy, selective use of evidence and dissenting scientists to contradict public health experts and confuse the public. Oil companies have already used such tactics in the climate change debate.
The approach is also strikingly similar to the "teach the controversy" campaign mounted by the Seattle-based think tank the Discovery Institute. A decade ago, it designed lesson plans for teachers that focused on weaknesses in evolutionary theory and presented "intelligent design" as a scientific alternative. ID proposes that facets of the living world were created by a supernatural "intelligent cause".
An attempt to introduce ID by the district school board in Dover, Pennsylvania, was thwarted in 2005 when a judge ruled that ID is not science but the "progeny of creationism". As an offshoot of religion, its teaching in public schools is unconstitutional.
The judge ruled that focusing on a supposed controversy rather than being straight about science was "at best disingenuous and at worst a canard". There can be no excuse for such deceit in schools, no matter what the agenda.
It is easy to see that libertarians will never be best friends with scientists who tell them their lifestyle is leading the world into danger. But their real beef is with the political response to the science, which is likely to constrain their freedoms. Let's keep that debate where it belongs, in civics or politics classes. To seek to present distorted science to those who will have to deal with the consequences of worsening climate change is deeply cynical.
The points have been debated ad nauseam with the usual frictious outcome, but I would ask them what is wrong with deep cycnicism, and the questioning of threats to the constraint of freedoms? I can think of not a few politicians to whom the article should be addressed. Our schoolrooms have become politics classes already because of this issue. People in glasshouses...
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#1080031 - 23/02/2012 18:05
Re: Interesting news articles about AGW
[Re: Keith]
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Weatherzone Addict
Registered: 7/02/2008
Loc: Eastern A/Hills SA
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#1080033 - 23/02/2012 18:09
Re: Interesting news articles about AGW
[Re: Keith]
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Weatherzone Addict
Registered: 29/01/2007
Loc: Horsham in western Victoria
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"New Scientist" also known as the "Nude Socialist" in some quarters. One of my most eagerly awaited science magazines from about the late 1950's soon after it started to be published as a weekly science mag.
Then in about the mid 1980's it started to change. Genuine science started to disappear and there was more and more little green men type articles and a big swing towards pushing science as defined by a socialist and environmental version of post modern science. I finally let my subscription lapse by the early 90's and haven't been back.
Interestingly the Editor for many years and who really set NS up as a genuine science mag in the 1960's I think it was, was a dedicated skeptic and was scathing of the role of the IPCC and the appearance of the warmista mentality and the green enviro movement in the whole global warming muckheap.
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#1080035 - 23/02/2012 18:21
Re: Interesting news articles about AGW
[Re: ROM]
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Weatherzone Addict
Registered: 29/01/2007
Loc: Horsham in western Victoria
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It's what they left out of that article BD, that is one of the most important pieces in this debacle of Fraudgate and that was the information on the supposedly main and subsequently proven as forged, document.
The media rarely if ever tell the full truth which if told honestly, can alter perceptions by a great amount. If it conflicts in any way with their deeply ingrained biases it just won't appear but not reporting something vital to understanding does not constitute false reporting in the media's eyes.
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#1080039 - 23/02/2012 18:39
Re: Interesting news articles about AGW
[Re: ROM]
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Weatherzone Addict
Registered: 29/01/2007
Loc: Horsham in western Victoria
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It's starting to turn nasty in the hallowed halls of climate science. Roger Pielke Sr obviously has had enough and is fed up with the attitude and snakiness of some of the most notable climate warmer scientists. Trenberth is getting a real reputation as you can read in Pielke' Srs; blog article and that is not limited to Pielke from my past reading.. A Climate Science Post On September 4 20...d Peter Gleick.So much for the upholder of ethics and his equally nasty mates!
Edited by ROM (23/02/2012 18:40)
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#1080053 - 23/02/2012 19:36
Re: Interesting news articles about AGW
[Re: ROM]
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Weatherzone Addict
Registered: 10/02/2007
Loc: Just a bit north of the "coath...
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The difference between Christy & Spencer and their main critics is that Christy & Spencer do science. When somebody points out a mistake they acknowledge it and correct. It then makes it oh so easy for people like Trenberth et al to crow that they have a "reputation for making serial mistakes that other scientists have been forced to uncover".
Sorry - but I'm with Spencer & Christy on this. The other mob is more interested in playing politics...
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Exceptions are pernicious, they conceal laws...
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#1080162 - 23/02/2012 23:28
Re: Interesting news articles about AGW
[Re: Arnost]
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Weather Freak
Registered: 1/02/2011
Loc: travelling East coast of OZ
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ROM went to the IPCC site to find some discussion on why most of the models has overstated the rise in temps Nothing to be found but read that they have a report coming out in March 2012 and this special report is a lead up to it http://www.ipcc-wg2.gov/SREX/images/uploads/SREX_English_PR.pdfKampala, 18 November 2011—The Summary for Policymakers of the Special Report on Managing the Risks of Extreme Events and Disasters to Advance Climate Change Adaptation (SREX) was approved today by member governments of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC). “There is high confidence that both maximum and minimum daily temperatures have increased on a global scale due to the increase of greenhouse gases.”“Changes in other extremes, such as more intense and longer droughts are observed in some regions, but the assessment assigns medium confidence due to a lack of direct observations and a lack of agreement in the available scientific studies. Confidence in any long-term trend in tropical cyclone intensity, frequency or duration is assessed to be low,” he added. Regarding the future, the assessment concludes that it is virtually certain that on a global scale hot days become even hotter and occur more often.
"For the high emissions scenario, it is likely that the frequency of hot days will increase by a factor of 10 in most regions of the world", said Thomas Stocker the other Co-chair of Working Group I. “Likewise, heavy precipitation will occur more often,and the wind speed of tropical cyclones will increase while their number will likely remain constant or decrease”.----------------------------- I was Disappointed to see the last major report was in 2007 and the next is not due until 2013 -2015 I read about the process involved in producing these reports from the hundreds of hand picked scientists.( 220)There is vetting and checking all the way through the process.( re flow diagram of the process before publication) Like a very big firewall! At least the cynisism in me suggested so ..LOL http://ipcc-wg2.gov/SREX/ipcc-process/Here is Mingy Lubbers response from CERES response to the IPCC special statement of Nov 2011 she works with business in 'sustainability challenges' and she posts various business groups response to IPCC claims http://www.forbes.com/sites/mindylubber/...onomic-impacts/
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#1080172 - 23/02/2012 23:55
Re: Interesting news articles about AGW
[Re: crikey]
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Weatherzone Addict
Registered: 31/01/2011
Loc: Southern Victoria
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And this from " The Age 'today ........ " http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/call-to-drop-climate-focus-for-recycling-20120222-1to6e.html " i wonder if " the (green) age " realise that they are discrediting "Sustainability Victoria" with a the detail that the head of it used to be the head of Worksafe ... It seems that over the top ideology , is an industry within itself that one can jump from one to the other . All these championed and postions filled with friends from the far left . Maybe Ted Baileu isn't as dumb as he Appears . or maybe he has an eye on Europe . Unlike many at " the age " who are swallowing up what the German Solar manufacturers are trying to sell as positive about Africa , perhaps diverting from their own imminent local departure ..... since when did Environment need its own sub section , only in " the Age ". Don't get me wrong as i do read it , once a week . Mainly just to get the other perspective on occasion . Today was interesting ,they really are doing damage to Labor's cause with the 4-5 pages they devoted to the Melo drama that is " the Labour " party . Strange how its origins are on their ear . And the next poll they may win will be a Logie , pushing out the cast of Home 'n Away to clean up across the board .......
Edited by Southern Oracle (23/02/2012 23:56)
_________________________
Quote " If you want to save our world, you must hurry. We don't know how much longer we can withstand the nothing. "
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#1080195 - 24/02/2012 01:35
Re: Interesting news articles about AGW
[Re: Southern Oracle]
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Weather Freak
Registered: 24/01/2008
Loc: Melbourne Seaford
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crikey Only responding to IPCC ( as you posted ) There is high confidence that daily max and min temperatures ( I assume records was meant ) have increased on global scale due to increase of greenhouse gases . Totally wrong . Only if you really want to find the reall numbers , you must use better means then my crystal ball . A 100 years old station must have at least 5 max and min records a year due to probability ( given its all stable ) In a 'warming world' its now 3:1 for max records . Easy to explain why , 50% stations are in heavy UHI , so 3:1 is expected . Problem is , UHI effects ( again I shoot and ask later ) only 0.1% of Earths surface . The fact we get 50 , 100 and sometimes over 100 years low records in this 'warming world' should be the bell warmista should see , there is something wrong . It has nothing to do with sat temps , because they are immune to any UHI .
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#1080210 - 24/02/2012 07:34
Re: Interesting news articles about AGW
[Re: Vlasta]
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Weatherzone Addict
Registered: 29/01/2007
Loc: Horsham in western Victoria
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Time you caught up withthe real world of IPCC manipulation and deliberate exclusion of anything that questions the global warming meme crikey and time you got over your hang up where you think you see all sorts of dangers and severe weather and other sinful man made occurrences when the science says point blank that no such thing is happening and that the world burning up because we put a fraction of a percent of a essential green house gas into the atmosphere each year. That was the "Summary for Policy Makers", a politically orientated document which to the disgust of most decent scientists was actually put out some months before the actual 4AR including WG1 which is the science section was completed and released by the IPCC. So the "Summary for Policy Makers " was put out and then as some IPCC editors have admitted, the science and data had to be stroked and manipulated and papers omitted to fit somewhere near the summary. You won't see that summary mentioned in climate science discussions any more as it is regarded with some contempt in science circles. Over and over again the comments from scientists are that the claims in the political Summary document are not repeated or have severe caveats in the actual 4AR. Secondly, the number of actual people with science degrees including a couple that never had degrees until later but were appointed as lead editors was 57 scientists and others did the actual selection of the papers to be included in the 4AR and the editing. According to and the investigative journalist Donna Laframboise over 30% of the papers included were never peer reviewed and were the propaganda pieces written by persons, not scientists in some cases, affiliated or employed by the political green enviros of green peace and WWF. According to a german environmentalist and IPCC reviewer turned skeptic about 30% of the editors of the AR's are affiliated with or are associated with the WWF and Greenpeace and which has led to an almost total exclusion of any skeptic papers in the WG1 4AR. Those who have followed this can just imagine the absolute racket and screams of concocted rage from the environmentalists and warmers if 30% of the editors were affiliated with big oil and the fossil fuel companies. The absolute hypocrisy and the level of fraudulent activities being perpetuated by the big political green watermelon enviros and the radical zealot fringe of the warmers is near criminal in it's extent as they try through the likes of that Summary for Policy Makers to ensure the re-engineering and socialisation of society.
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#1080232 - 24/02/2012 08:31
Re: Interesting news articles about AGW
[Re: ROM]
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Weather Freak
Registered: 16/11/2006
Loc: Melbourne, Victoria
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It would seem from reading the review of the material Donna Laframboise (a little chinese whisper like reading a review) that its actually less of the scientists to blame and more the UN and the political masters leading the scientists along like puppets. This would seem to fit with the Summary for Policymakes differing from the AR4 materials (which included the caveats). One has to wonder who is actually steering the direction for this - it would seem to be far more powerful than WWF or Greenpeace.
I also do not agree with the persecution that seems to exist around the fact that PhD students papers should be treated any differently to those by any other scientist - realistically graduate students end up producing alot of the advances in many fields as we are forced to pursue unusual questions or cutting edge research to prove our contribution to the field. A recently awarded PhD (particularly a US one), is something earnt over an average of 7 years, requiring horrendous amounts of coursework and learning to make them an expert in that field - by the time you get to the last year or so - you know the field as well as anyone post-doctorate (though generally its your an expert in a particular area). Papers published by PhD students generally cop an equal if not harsher review process as well - our supervisors massacre a paper until they are satisfied, and then it is sent to reviewers.
Edited by Severely Tall (24/02/2012 08:38)
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#1080239 - 24/02/2012 08:40
Re: Interesting news articles about AGW
[Re: Severely Tall]
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Meteorological Motor Mouth
Registered: 16/12/2001
Loc: Kings Langley, NSW
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Starting of course with the UN Secretary-General, whom I have often seen on the news maintaining the 'cause'. I guess he has to set an 'example'.
Not that I think the UN has any use anyway. It browbeats Australia about alleged mistreatment of Aborigines, and sets up climate change funding schemes designed to punish the Western Powers, while ignoring genocide and Islamist murder squads in the countries which those schemes are to benefit. But that's another topic.
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#1080253 - 24/02/2012 09:05
Re: Interesting news articles about AGW
[Re: Keith]
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Weatherzone Addict
Registered: 29/01/2007
Loc: Horsham in western Victoria
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ST, I have to agree with you. From my contacts and reading, the PhD students do the mule work and the heavy lifting in much of science while their supervisors get to put their names on the papers. A few of those students go on to greater things but a hell of a lot of them seem to just take advantage of their new found status and don't appear to contribute much after that unfortunately. As one of my farming brothers who has a degree in Ag earned as a mature student in the Adelaide Uni and then went on to run the Ag section of a refugee settlement of 65,000 people in western Tanzania under the UN / Tanzanians / Lutheran World Federation for four years used to say, you pay one hundred mediocre or even useless researchers and scientists to get that one guy / gal scientist who can and does really make a difference to the world. No reflection on you is mean't in any way ST when I say this but I also think that is reality and we are stuck with that as it is just human nature at work as always. Gotta go! Cheers
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#1080309 - 24/02/2012 11:50
Re: Interesting news articles about AGW
[Re: ROM]
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Weatherzone Addict
Registered: 10/02/2007
Loc: Just a bit north of the "coath...
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I agree too... Further - it matters not whether the funding for a "scientific" piece of work is from a Uni Grant; Govt, Greenpeace or Heartland. If it stands on its own merits - that's it. The current tendency (and this is by either side) to dismiss a piece of work because it is funded by some "inapropriate" institution is pretty silly.
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Exceptions are pernicious, they conceal laws...
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#1080310 - 24/02/2012 11:57
Re: Interesting news articles about AGW
[Re: Arnost]
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Weatherzone Addict
Registered: 10/02/2007
Loc: Just a bit north of the "coath...
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It would seem from reading the review of the material Donna Laframboise ... Can't resist... is it by PG? This book is a stunning compilation of lies, misrepresentations, and falsehoods about the fundamental science of climate change. It compiles the old arguments, long refuted, about the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, which summarizes the state of science on climate change. The IPCC reports -- the most comprehensive summary of climate science in the world -- are so influential and important, that they must be challenged by climate change deniers, who have no other science to stand on. LaFramboise recycles these critiques in a form bound to find favor with those who hate science, fear science, or are afraid that if climate change is real and caused by humans then governments will have to act (and they hate government).
Are you already convinced that climate change is false? Then you don't need this book, since there is nothing new in it for you. If you respect science, then you ALSO don't need this book, since there's no science in it, and lots of pseudo-science and misrepresentations of science. See, especially, the section trying to discredit the "hockey stick" -- long a bugaboo of the anti-climate change crowd. Seven independent scientific commissions and studies have separately verified it, but you won't find out about that in this book 
Edited by Arnost (24/02/2012 11:58)
_________________________
Exceptions are pernicious, they conceal laws...
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#1080322 - 24/02/2012 12:23
Re: Interesting news articles about AGW
[Re: Arnost]
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Weather Freak
Registered: 16/11/2006
Loc: Melbourne, Victoria
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Oh, I meant the review that ROM linked to...not that one  . And ROM I totally agree - a large number of PhD graduates go nowhere with it and become low-impact academics or move into the private sector. I am very much hoping that I can avoid being one of those and rather actually find out some things and achieve something. One only need listen to some of the decriptions of PhDs read out in a graduation cermony to know both their value, and the abject waste of time that some of them are.
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#1080710 - 24/02/2012 23:36
Re: Interesting news articles about AGW
[Re: Severely Tall]
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Weather Freak
Registered: 1/02/2011
Loc: travelling East coast of OZ
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VLASTA unfortunately the IPCC web site is not very user friendly and does not provide any links to explain any of their climate predictions I don't like the IPCC web page. I could not find any links that lets you read through their rationale. I guess you are just expected to believe them.. Anyway . Noticed they affiliate with the world meteorological organisation (WMO) which seems to have the role of disseminating the IPCC climate information http://www.wmo.int/pages/prog/wcp/wcdmp/CA_2.php and also UNEP ( united nations Environment program) I am just having a look at some of WMO 's publications. It certainly is a better site This looks really interesting Assessment of the observed extreme conditions during the 2009/2010 boreal winter http://www.wmo.int/pages/prog/wcp/wcdmp/wcdmp_series/documents/winter2009-2010_TD1550_EN_web.pdfHaven't read yet . but reckon l might tackle tomorrow night . Looks to be written by some climate experts from all over the world Is the WMO approved by the skeptic assembly? or is it rigged by the enviro's?
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#1080946 - 25/02/2012 14:35
Re: Interesting news articles about AGW
[Re: crikey]
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Weatherzone Addict
Registered: 29/01/2007
Loc: Horsham in western Victoria
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Is the global warming / climate change ground starting to shift in the media and is "Fakegate" the trigger that is finally starting to convince the media to start doubting the trustworthiness of the claims and the rigid, unyielding attitude and advocacy of the warmistas and hard line left wing political enviros and start asking the hard questions of those worthies ? I have no idea where "The Washington Times" has sat on the global warming / climate change issue but this following editorial is very interesting in it's attitude and outlook towards "Fakegate" and the warmistas and the climate warming scientists per se. EDITORIAL: Global warming’s desperate caper[ in full below ] For believers in a science that supposedly is “settled,” global-warming advocates are awfully concerned about the need to silence dissent. Last week, the ethics chairman for the American Geophysical Union resigned in disgrace over his role in a black-bag job meant to intimidate the Heartland Institute, one of the most effective voices questioning the anti-carbon-dioxide orthodoxy.
On Monday, climate scientist Peter H. Gleick confessed that he stole the identity of a Heartland staffer in order to obtain confidential financial files detailing the private group’s finances. Mr. Gleick then spread those papers around to various global-warming blogs, intending to discredit the group’s work as if it were bought and paid for by big oil companies.
That particular line of attack is especially pathetic. According to Heartland’s publicly available Internal Revenue Service filings, its budget is about $6 million. The institute works on education, health care, telecommunication and other issues, with only about a quarter of its funds devoted to the environment. Let’s compare that to the other side. According to the Government Accountability Office, U.S. taxpayers forked over $26.1 billion to bankroll climate-change programs in President Obama’s stimulus bill alone. That’s just the tip of the iceberg. The European Union also spent $9.5 billion on climate-change financing, and the United Nations chips in as well.
The voices shouting that “the sky is falling” are rewarded with Nobel Prizes, Oscars, research grants, loans and subsidies that essentially are without limit. Compared to this level of support, Heartland couldn’t be more of an underdog, but its bark has the climate billionaires on the run.
The Union of Concerned Scientists (UCS) went so far as to imply that Heartland’s devastating critiques drove Mr. Gleick to commit his crime. “It’s unfortunate that the bitter, personal attacks on his colleagues and their work contributed to what he called a lapse of his own personal judgment and ethics,” UCS President Kevin Knobloch wrote on the UCS blog. Mr. Knobloch went on to equate the Heartland theft with the Climategate documents leaked from the University of East Anglia beginning in 2009.
There are several key differences. The Climategate emails were written on the taxpayer dime and were improperly withheld from release under freedom-of-information laws. The items that were released online contained no sensitive, private information. The Heartland documents, on the other hand, contained personal contact information for staffers who have nothing to do with the environmental debate.
The Climategate emails showed that the prophets of imminent global catastrophe used the peer-review process to silence critics while employing dubious techniques to shield their publicly funded work from review by the taxpayers who were paying their salaries. Heartland doesn’t take government money, so what it chooses to disclose is its own business.
When “scientists” sink to Watergate-style tactics to attack the motivation of an underfunded group that has different opinions, they betray their weakness. Climate alarmists know the science isn’t really settled, and they fear their billion-dollar gravy train will disappear once the public realizes it’s been had. In the end, Mr. Gleick has done far more harm to his cause than he has done to the Heartland Institute.
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