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#955203 - 03/02/2011 17:57 Re: site down? [Re: jocelyn]
mArV Offline
Cloud Gazer

Registered: 08/11/2010
Posts: 19
Loc: Dapto
While it would be great to have the perfect forum during events like Yasi, I find it hard to see that happening, short of becoming web nazis. The main thread was a chat thread and the technical thread mods did a great job of minimising chat on the tech thread. If its a chat thread, then surely we all have to tolerate some nonsense, although abuse should not be tolerated. While there was criticism of the "guess ground zero" game, I bet for a lot of watchers, this was an issue. It was for me, with my parents believed to be dug in at Taylors Beach (at 11 I learned they had been forcibly evacuated - yes that did happen despite the media reports). So I was keen to hear on the ground reports to supplement the BOM data. A better solution is just to find a way to bring extra capacity online during peak periods. A big well done to WZ for being a source of choice for so many.

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#955222 - 03/02/2011 18:19 Re: site down? [Re: Arnost]
molly8 Offline
Cloud Gazer

Registered: 10/07/2008
Posts: 2
Loc: Craigmore SA
we find the forum excellent for up to date info that is often ahead of media reports.
this was particularly true during the victorian bushfires. posts were accurate and current.
valuable during a major weather event.
disappointed when the site went down last night but understand the overload issue.

would not like to think it was ever taken down for other reasons.

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#955240 - 03/02/2011 18:41 Re: site down? [Re: molly8]
markm9 Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 09/03/2009
Posts: 1354
Loc: bris
So it was a server overload, mmm.

I had a feeling it was the wave heights that Jeff noticed in Townsville. They showed a massive wave, soon after that the site went down. Then shortly after the premier said the equipment failed. People were reporting on the data that we could see.

Moderators censor the site so why wouldn't the government if it thought fit.

So the tech heads have done the analysis and found a server went down, you really got to examine the errors to find out why.

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#955248 - 03/02/2011 18:51 Re: site down? [Re: markm9]
markm9 Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 09/03/2009
Posts: 1354
Loc: bris
A bit more technical information.

There is a thing you can do called a Denial of Service Attack.

This involves sending so much data to a server to bring it down.

It masquerades itself as an overload. It is common and experienced people can do it quite easily.

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#955261 - 03/02/2011 19:18 Re: site down? [Re: markm9]
HolySmoke Offline
Cloud Gazer

Registered: 01/02/2011
Posts: 19
Loc: Mackay Q
I"m an on and off lurker cool
I first came when Hamish was on the doorstep, then Ului, Anthony and now Yasi.

I just registered a few days ago. I only turn up when I want to see what the WZ experts think of the current threat. Hahah grin (what a user)

Be great to see some sort of rating system to see at a glance who knows their stuff and has a valuable opinion.

I walked away from this website many times over the last week after reading so many opinions / alarmist posts.

Thx

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#955271 - 03/02/2011 19:32 Re: site down? [Re: markm9]
Jax Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 16/12/2009
Posts: 744
There's a lot of intelligent people frequent this forum, hopefully some of you might do the following and get somewhere with it.

1. Check in the Cardwell to Bowen thread to see what the last comment was before the site crashed?
2. Note the comments from Dodo and Xavo.
3. Go back to that last comment before the site crash and start doing some serious research.
4. Try and explain the odd radar "anomaly" if you can access it somewhere from up at Wyndham/Darwin at crossing time.

Even the media is wondering about why measurements taken at Willis Island don't correspond with the actual severity of what unfolded...

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#955274 - 03/02/2011 19:35 Re: site down? [Re: Arnost]
Andy Double U Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 28/10/2006
Posts: 1829
Loc: Mundoolun, SE QLD, 129m ASL
Apologies for the Ultra long post smile

I tend to agree Arnost.

I think you can separate users into the following categories:

> Newbies who are new to the weather, have little to no background but are seeking information either for general knowledge OR because there is an impending event that they are trying to garner more knowledge on.

> Casual observers who tend to have a bit of a handle on things and are more likely to be able to interpret more technical comments or know where to research it.

> Moderate to experienced observers who have a pretty good idea on what is happening/going to happen based on their own experiences and being able to interpret modelling and forecasts as they come to hand.

> Mets or the gurus who obviously have a very good handle on things and have a pool of resources and experience to draw upon. These guys are probably this forum's most valuable resource for obvious reasons and inevitably have a lot of questioning thrown at them. It might pay to keep in mind that some of these guys derive their primary source of income from their knowledge and any info they give here is because they are passionate about the weather and we shouldn't abuse their generosity!

> Pests or trolls, self explanatory really.

To background, when I first found the WZ forums via google search I found the forum a little intimidating at first, I sure as heck wasn't about to post much as I saw some of the other newer people getting hounded pretty hard by some of the more experienced people. Having said that, I believe it made me brush up on my weather knowledge a little more and when I finally felt comfortable to make a few small forecasts of my own, I was inclined to try and explain my reasoning. In retrospect I feel this was a good thing for me and the quality of the forum.

To be honest I think things started to change when the forum was upgraded and as soon as things became less clunky and cumbersome it seemed that more and more new users were finding us. For me I've always struggled a bit with the new layout and it doesn't feel as homely as it has in the past, but hey, that's my issue, not anyone else's. I do like the multimedia features as they offer a lot more flexibility over the old style.

Many moons ago I was a volunteer moderator in a chat program, helping new users get a handle on things, solving technical issues and by far the most important job was maintaining a G rated environment as it was an area where users from all backgrounds and age groups congregated. By far the biggest challenge we had as moderators was ensuring each user's experience was a positive and rewarding one and the way we did this as a team was to apply the rules and guidelines as consistently as we could.

We operated on a three strikes principle, although if someone was being particularly offensive/disruptive they were ejected without notice. Ejections would vary from a 5 minute time out to a permanent ban. For each shift we supervised we were required to a submit a moderation report as a way of disseminating information amongst the other mods. Ejections needed to be sited against a rule or guideline that had been broken and an explanation given.

In the chat room we had two levels of people, non-registered users and registered paying users. Non-registered members received less functionality which actually kept the disruptive behaviour confined to spamming text more or less. Registered users have put their money where the mouth is and obviously value their hard earned so would play nicely. Something to consider might be offering silver members something extra in the forums compared to non registered users. Maybe their should be a cap on the number of non-registered users who can login and post at any one time?

Which brings me to my next point. As far as I am concerned, it is an absolute privilege that WZ offers this forum for people with a common interest in weather to get together and congregate. For a company there are many potential headaches which lie in the legal field as well as the obvious logistical issues of actually maintaining and delivering this site to internet users. WZ, doesn't have to offer this service, but I am glad they do and really hope they continue to into the future.

Mods -- To be brutally honest, I don't think there is enough consistency amongst the moderators in applying the rules and guidelines to maintain a positive environment in the forums. I myself have been a bit surprised by some of my own comments that haven't been moderated, compared to the ones that have. They leave me scratching my head! In my opinion, snide and narky comments should be deleted [b]with explanation[b]. If mods decide that a particular line of conversation has taken that route than I believe the entire exchange needs to be deleted, not just one or two comments that can sometimes be from the one person as I've noticed the initial comment that lead to the flare up can be left on the board. Ok, so this could be a bit time consuming to moderate but I am sure if the rules are applied quickly, fairly and dealt with in a very timely manner than the overall 'vibe' of the forum will improve and the workload could ultimately decrease. Relaxing the rules now to ease the burden on the moderators at this point in time can and often will come back and bite you leading to increased moderator workload in the future... the end result of that is possibly a closing of the forum. Is there any particular reason why we have different moderators for different sections? Why can't all mods moderate all sections? Perhaps some mods can be assigned as a section expert for other mods to contact in case of a moderating issue?

So some things to consider?

Maybe we could have a 'Weather School' section of the forum broken up into regions and areas like the weather section? This is the place for inexperienced people to ask questions. Perhaps experienced users could be encouraged to visit to answer the more benign questions to ensure it is utilised properly. Not sure how one would encourage this though.

A 'General Chat' area separated up into regions where users can engage in general convo and obs.

A 'Technical & Reports' section for users to do pre, during and post event analysis, again separated into the regions.

I know this dramatically increases the number of sections in the forums but sometimes what is good for the computer isn't necessarily good for the user! wink

Perhaps a two tier user system along the unregistered / registered guideline too help keep a cap on server traffic and workload. I think it is important that as many users as possible can view the forum during events because there is often some pretty good information contained within them that can make a meaningful difference to the outcome of an event, be it chasing or riding out a cyclone.

Perhaps all of us need to remind ourselves that this area is designed to be used as a forum and not as a live chat room. SWXC has the chat area below the chase feed which I think is a really good idea, although it definitely needs moderating to keep the crap to a minimum. Perhaps IRC could be utilised in some way for events as users see fit? That way idle chit chat can be confined to one area whilst the forums can be used as kind of a weather archive / knowledge base that can assist users now and into the future.

Anyway, that's my $2 worth. grin

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#955299 - 03/02/2011 20:07 Re: site down? [Re: Andy Double U]
mArV Offline
Cloud Gazer

Registered: 08/11/2010
Posts: 19
Loc: Dapto
The wave heights were reported on Facebook and TV with far bigger audiences. Neither of those were "taken down" so while not outside the realms of possibility, I find a DOS attack hard to believe.

Also I know nothing about web servers, but what precipitated a total crash, rather than difficulty connecting?

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#955308 - 03/02/2011 20:16 Re: site down? [Re: Andy Double U]
markm9 Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 09/03/2009
Posts: 1354
Loc: bris
It is in no way an official forecasting forum, the problem is with the experienced people here we see obs well before the media or BOM issue, it is trumping the BOM.

There always has to be freedom of speech, .

Why didn't twitter or facebook come down, less security here, rest of site worked but not forum.

I hope we don't head towards some countries with much information censored.

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#955322 - 03/02/2011 20:37 Re: site down? [Re: markm9]
markm9 Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 09/03/2009
Posts: 1354
Loc: bris
This has really pissed me off.

The mods would have no idea of the CEO's in charge of the WeatherZone site run by big corporations, it is not a backyard site.

I threw the denial of service attack out there, but having more a think a decision may have been made to shut forum down due to rumors.

THIS IS NOT GOOD MAY AS WELL NOT EVEN HAVE IT.

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#955324 - 03/02/2011 20:40 Re: site down? [Re: CivEngSean]
Moonstruck Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 30/12/2010
Posts: 755
pkgjmg I totally agree with all your comments I was a long time lurker ( about two years) while I developed an interest in learning more weather and all its intricasies( hope thats spelt right) and have only just registered. I was frustrated by the constant twitter like comments/conversations that I had to get through to read any worthwhile posts. I wonder if perhaps a more detailed registering procedure might be the answer. i.e. as some suggest a 24 / 48 waiting period, more boxes to be ticked so that new members understand that this is a weather forum and not a social network such as facebook and twitter, another thing that greatly annoys me is the constant asking of questions answered on the previous page or questions that are totally irrelevant to the thread. For god sake can't people read back! Anyway that's my twelve months worth. To all regulars please keep posting some of us really enjoy being part of it without massive worthless contributions. The end.

PS. I am very dissappointed that the likes of RWM are no longer frequent participants on this forum.
_________________________
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#955335 - 03/02/2011 20:47 Re: site down? [Re: Andy Double U]
davidg Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 01/06/2008
Posts: 2248
Loc: Glenbrook/Penrith
Originally Posted By: Andy Double U
Perhaps IRC could be utilised in some way for events as users see fit? That way idle chit chat can be confined to one area whilst the forums can be used as kind of a weather archive / knowledge base that can assist users now and into the future.

Anyway, that's my $2 worth. grin


I think thats an excellent idea but moderating such a chat function with 100's of users all posting every minute or so would be near impossible. The current setup where the tech thread is seperate from the general chat thread is perfect. It's just that the chat thread got out of control and crashed the site. This then meant that no technical discussion was possible at all as well as no real time obs. Its difficult to find the balance between moderated control and censorship/exclusion.

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#955375 - 03/02/2011 21:23 Re: site down? [Re: davidg]
KevD Offline
Occasional Visitor

Registered: 23/09/2001
Posts: 5236
Loc: Bellingen NSW 2454
Hi all

Just wanted to let you know that I've gone through and cut and pasted the most useful comments from this thread so they can be incorporated into ongoing discussions on how to make it all work all the better next time.

Thanks for the huge effort many have gone to to put forward ideas for the future

Cheers

Kev

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#955385 - 03/02/2011 21:35 Re: site down? [Re: davidg]
WelloMeteo Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 1488
Loc: Wellington Point SEQ (30km eas...
I am constantly lurking in the forums, but don't contribute much because I rarely have anything to add that hasn't already been said by those with more knowledge. If I don't understand something I look it up, but due to the media exposure the WZ site has had, the type of people it is attracting now are not inclined to do that. My one comment last night was to a new member who had typed out a list of obs - I suggested that also providing a link to the BOM obs page (which I provided) would allow people to get that information in a more up to date way - I was shot down in flames by that person because "after all this is a chat forum, so what would be the point?" - and therein lies the problem - most of these very new members do see it as entirely a chat forum, and have very little interest in learning about the weather (of course many of the new members are here to learn, but I fear they are the minority). Last night, I gave up in disgust and frustration and simply closed my WZ tab (but left open the other 9 weather-related ones I had going ... grin ). I've been reading some of the suggestions here thinking of the pros and cons of what is suggested. It's true that the tech thread sorts the wheat from the chaff (so to speak) but in the past the chat thread provided really valuable on the ground, immediate info about a situation - and that is what I really missed last night


There are two issues here - the crashing of the server, and the perceived fall in quality of the forums. Not sure what can be done about the former - but would it be possible to simply have the option of a filter, like in facebook? You get an idea pretty quickly about who are the trolls, who are the drama queens and who are simply simpletons and to be honest they are probably the minority, but unfortunately post the most - if it were facebook, you could simply "hide" them - is that a possibility here? It might even help with server loads because there would be less refreshing of pages to keep up, and less temptation to respond to moronic comments.

Edit: just realised I contradicted myself about minorities and majorities, but I'm sure you know what i mean ...


Edited by WelloMeteo (03/02/2011 21:37)

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#955387 - 03/02/2011 21:40 Re: site down? [Re: markm9]
whynot Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 01/10/2001
Posts: 550
Loc: Brisbane
Originally Posted By: markm9
This has really pissed me off.

The mods would have no idea of the CEO's in charge of the WeatherZone site run by big corporations, it is not a backyard site.

I threw the denial of service attack out there, but having more a think a decision may have been made to shut forum down due to rumors.

THIS IS NOT GOOD MAY AS WELL NOT EVEN HAVE IT.


markm9,

Mate, I think you need to get a grip. You are confusing free speech rights with private property rights. For example, you have a right to stand inside your property and say whatever you like. However, you have no rights to come onto my property and say whatever you like. As the Weatherzone web site is like private property, the “owners” can censor whatever they like. If you want true free speech, go post on the Usenet group aus.weather. The “free speech” that was prevalent in the late 1990’s on Usenet is what drove the older members across to private forums in the first place. Living under a benevolent dictator was better than anarchy of Usenet.

I agree the Forum is not without its faults. Indeed, when I recently privately chided another forum user for their posts, the first thing they did was run off to a moderator to complain about me (a new first for me). Unlike Usenet, least there was an adjudicator who could settle the matter. If I didn’t like the result, I can always go find another forum.

In response to some of the other comments posted;

I think that Weatherzone has been remarkably tolerant of the various conversations held over the years. Considering the resources it consumes and the potential legal minefield that forums are, I am surprised that Mark has persevered so long.

I have seen reputation points work well on some forums and not well on others.

I think that the conspiracy theorists who believe that the information posted here is “better” that what is supplied by the BoM for the public is just plain wrong. Public weather forecasting is a completely different ball game than forums. I posted about this recently here … http://forum.weatherzone.com.au/ubbthrea...ASTE#Post922864
To put the BoM’s problems into even sharper relief, just look at the TV footage of people leaving it to the last minute because they did not “believe” the forecast.

One final point, it is readily apparent that the Facebook/Twitter users have a completely different form of communicating. It never struck me how different until I read some of the utter garbage posted over the last few days. The screams of “elitism” really stung when all we are trying to do is hold a rational, sensible, and above all scientific discussion about the weather. But, apparently, that is too difficult for some to comprehend …

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#955400 - 03/02/2011 21:51 Re: site down? [Re: whynot]
WelloMeteo Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 05/01/2006
Posts: 1488
Loc: Wellington Point SEQ (30km eas...
Originally Posted By: whynot

One final point, it is readily apparent that the Facebook/Twitter users have a completely different form of communicating. It never struck me how different until I read some of the utter garbage posted over the last few days. The screams of “elitism” really stung when all we are trying to do is hold a rational, sensible, and above all scientific discussion about the weather. But, apparently, that is too difficult for some to comprehend


Exactly! That's what I was referring to with my reference to a 'different kind of user' - hell, I'm on facebook all the time, but at least I can differentiate between what kind of comment is appropriate for each forum - the comments in the Yasi chat last night resembled the average of 60 odd found after every Facebook QLD Police Service post. I really do think that differentiation needs to be made clear - and enforced where possible. Maybe even lose the word "chat" altogether ....?

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#955404 - 03/02/2011 21:54 Re: site down? [Re: KevD]
Mark Hardy Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 23/01/2001
Posts: 2881
Loc: North Sydney, NSW
There have been a lot of issues raised in this thread and I won't address them all here. Other than to say two things. One, a forum structured as this one is will never cope well with the type of extreme event and influx of new members as we saw last night. We saw a very similar situation on the day of TC Larry 5 years ago. On nights like last night we can only ask that regular members become a little more tolerant of the needs of the new members who join in events like this.

Regarding the unavailability of the forums last night. The forum crashed, it was really was as simple as that. The forum part of weatherzone is not supported by hardware or personnel nearly as well as the rest of the site. The main weatherzone site can handle enormous traffic loads due to multiple load balanced servers and a distributed caching system. The forums are still run from a single server with nothing to protect it from large traffic loads. And this is fine 99.9% of the time because on a typical day the forum requires very little hardware and bandwidth resources to run. It's only on days like yesterday when demand spirals out of control that this set up is unable to cope with demand. When it crashed late last night we had no one able to get it going again till this morning. We apologise for this inconvenience and understand that a lot of people were using the forum as a medium to communicate with others equally as anxious about the impending cyclone.

We will look at our options for making the forums more load tolerant in time for the next major weather event.

And one last thing; a massive thanks to the moderators who put in a huge effort yesterday to keep some semblance of order to the forum in what was an extremely anxious time for many people. Without you guys the forum would not be the place it is. Thanks again. MH.


Edited by Mark Hardy (03/02/2011 22:15)

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#955431 - 03/02/2011 22:27 Re: site down? [Re: Mark Hardy]
Arnost Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 10/02/2007
Posts: 3909
No need to apologise Mark... Further I second whynot's
Quote:
I think that Weatherzone has been remarkably tolerant of the various conversations held over the years. Considering the resources it consumes and the potential legal minefield that forums are, I am surprised that Mark has persevered so long.


I also stress whynot's final point that WM has also picked up. Language and communication is alway evolving and the FB/Twitter/SMS style one liners are here to stay. But here's another suggestion - if it's technically possible - anyone who's not a silver member is limmited to one post each half hour (or pick a better ratio)... Maybe that way the people who want to post will post more meanigful things. And maybe that way you will get a smidgin more revenue...

And taking Andy UU's & WM's last point a bit further - maybe the "chat" page on the event should be in the lounge. Have three threads associated with major events: the technical, the reports & observations, and the general/chat.

I would also [thinking a bit out of the square] like to have the moderators (or designates) able to "elevate posts". So when someone makes what would be a possibly throw away comment like "it's been drizzling here for the last hour but there's nothing on the radar" in chat page, that could then be auto-transferred to the obs thread as that may be interesting to someone subsequently doing analysis on an event.

Thank you all for taking the time to put down your thoughts so making these forums more enjoyable!
_________________________
“No. Not even in the face of Armageddon. Never compromise” ...

And this of course applies to scientific principles. Never compromise these. Never! [Follow the science and you will be shown correct in the end...]

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#955448 - 03/02/2011 22:39 Re: site down? [Re: Arnost]
Island viewer Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 01/04/2010
Posts: 247
Loc: Eimeo Qld 4740
Perhaps (and I say this hoping not to be pedantic) for major events: 3 threads (Tech, contributor obs & chat) which would still allow contributions at all levels and allow those seeking information to find it without scrolling though so very many messages.
_________________________
Eimeo Point, Mackay, Qld

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#955455 - 03/02/2011 22:46 Re: site down? [Re: Andy Double U]
TC Poncho Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 07/01/2010
Posts: 2199
Loc: Point Cartwright, Sunny Coast,...
Originally Posted By: Andy Double U
Apologies for the Ultra long post smile

I tend to agree Arnost.

I think you can separate users into the following categories:

> Newbies who are new to the weather, have little to no background but are seeking information either for general knowledge OR because there is an impending event that they are trying to garner more knowledge on.

> Casual observers who tend to have a bit of a handle on things and are more likely to be able to interpret more technical comments or know where to research it.

> Moderate to experienced observers who have a pretty good idea on what is happening/going to happen based on their own experiences and being able to interpret modelling and forecasts as they come to hand.

> Mets or the gurus who obviously have a very good handle on things and have a pool of resources and experience to draw upon. These guys are probably this forum's most valuable resource for obvious reasons and inevitably have a lot of questioning thrown at them. It might pay to keep in mind that some of these guys derive their primary source of income from their knowledge and any info they give here is because they are passionate about the weather and we shouldn't abuse their generosity!

> Pests or trolls, self explanatory really.

In the chat room we had two levels of people, non-registered users and registered paying users. Non-registered members received less functionality which actually kept the disruptive behaviour confined to spamming text more or less. Registered users have put their money where the mouth is and obviously value their hard earned so would play nicely. Something to consider might be offering silver members something extra in the forums compared to non registered users. Maybe their should be a cap on the number of non-registered users who can login and post at any one time?

Maybe we could have a 'Weather School' section of the forum broken up into regions and areas like the weather section? This is the place for inexperienced people to ask questions. Perhaps experienced users could be encouraged to visit to answer the more benign questions to ensure it is utilised properly. Not sure how one would encourage this though.

A 'General Chat' area separated up into regions where users can engage in general convo and obs.

A 'Technical & Reports' section for users to do pre, during and post event analysis, again separated into the regions.

I know this dramatically increases the number of sections in the forums but sometimes what is good for the computer isn't necessarily good for the user! wink

Perhaps a two tier user system along the unregistered / registered guideline too help keep a cap on server traffic and workload. I think it is important that as many users as possible can view the forum during events because there is often some pretty good information contained within them that can make a meaningful difference to the outcome of an event, be it chasing or riding out a cyclone.

Anyway, that's my $2 worth. grin


Hey everyone. Jeeezzzz what happened last night... things were out of control at times and then.... nothing? couldnt connect to the forum? thought it was my chrome browser but i tried on exploder and still couldnt get on to the forums, so i figured the plug had been pulled.

Anyway. Im glad everyone is safe:)

comments on the quoted above:

what i have cut and left from Andy Double U (which by the way was a awesome write up) is the 3 basics i feel that are required to change and they all tie in together (which is helpful)

Firstly i will start with the forum structure. I am apart of another forum (surfphotographersunited). We have the same type of system as mentioned above with the payment/privilege option and i feel it works really well. We also have a minimum post policy where, if you dont have over a certain number of posts then you cant access certain parts of the forum.(which probably wouldnt be a problem here though)

Now, weather school is a excellent idea, but, i think, when you join, you go straight to weather school then sit a little test(this gives you the basic knowledge of weather info that you would need to not ask "those" questions) and once passed, you gain your newbie licence etc. Then, same again but, you have to post a certain number of posts and do another test before moving up...and so on and so forth.

Also, maybe if your a unregistered(nonpaying) user, then you have a max number of posts before you need to join.

thats me:)
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