#1043890 - 15/12/2011 16:07
Re: The Climate Change Politics Thread
[Re: Coxy]
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Weatherzone Addict
Registered: 10/02/2007
Posts: 3693
Loc: Just a bit north of the "coath...
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Hmmm - all the email addresses of those who post on CA / TaV and Tallblokes are in the hands of the police.
Not that I care overmuch, but I wonder if these are now subject to an FOI request to the Norfolk constabulary? Be interesting if some people who post there will be "unmasked" - some have been guarding their confidentiality... Payback!??!
_________________________
Exceptions are pernicious, they conceal laws...
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#1043918 - 15/12/2011 16:45
Re: The Climate Change Politics Thread
[Re: Arnost]
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Meteorological Motor Mouth
Registered: 29/01/2007
Posts: 6626
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Looks like Rudd is going to make a run for PM again the way the media are cranking up the rhetoric.
If he makes it back to PM and may the good lord be with us if he does after his last totally incompetent attempt then maybe "the great moral and economic issue challenge of our time," comparing global warming skeptics to gamblers who "happily play with our children's future." will be put on the backburner once again.
[ "Totally incompetent" is merely a matter of degree between Gillard, Rudd, Whitlam and McMahon ]
At least McMahon had a reasonable looking lady and Whitlam took his missus along with him as she was the only who could kick start a Boeing 707 if the PM's plane had starting troubles.
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#1044393 - 16/12/2011 17:29
Re: The Climate Change Politics Thread
[Re: ROM]
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Meteorological Motor Mouth
Registered: 29/01/2007
Posts: 6626
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I've put this comment on the UK police raid requested by the US Dept of justice on skeptic Tallbloke's home and the taking of some of his computers on this climate political thread. The other comments are on the Temperature thread. It is a sad day for justice when a couple of second rate universities in the UK Uni of East Anglia, [ UEA ] increasingly known as the Uni of Easy Access for it's low admittance standards and in the USA , the Penn State university for it's spending of millions of dollars to prevent the state attorney general getting access to Michael Mann's e- mails. Strange standards but Penn State had no problems in releasing the entire details of a well known prominent skeptic scientist to greenpeace within days of greenpeace's FOI demands Penn State is also the University that had a high profile football coach who it is now revealed has been a pedophile for many years. Penn state at the high senior officials level knew it and refused to do anything about it as he was a very successful coach.. So what's the connection between the US Dept of Justice and the Norfolk police raid. Could it be this e-mail; EcoWho FOIA Grepper 1577.txt. [ my bolding ] [In the search box on EcoWho just enter "dept of energy" and more e-mail links come up ] Dear All, Here are a few other thoughts. From looking at Climate Audit every few days, these people are not doing what I would call academic research. Also from looking they will not stop with the data, but will continue to ask for the original unadjusted data (which we don't have) and then move onto the software used to produce the gridded datasets (the ones we do release). CRU is considered by the climate community as a data centre, but we don't have any resources to undertake this work . Any work we have done in the past is done on the back of the research grants we get -and has to be well hidden. I've discussed this with the main funder (US Dept of Energy) in the past and they are happy about not releasing the original station data. We are currently trying to do some more work with other datasets, which will get released (as gridded datasets) through the British Atmospheric Data Centre (BADC). This will involve more than just station temperature data. Perhaps we should consider setting up something like this agreement below [1] http://badc.nerc.ac.uk/data/surface/met-nerc_agreement.html I just want these orchestrated requests to stop. I also don't want to give away years of hard effort within CRU. Many of the agreements were made in the late 1980s and early 1990s and I don't have copies to hand. I also don't want to waste my time looking for them. Even if I were to find them all, it is likely that the people we dealt with are no longer in the same positions. These requests over the last 2.5 years have wasted much time for me, others in CRU and for Dave and Michael. Some of you may not know, but the dataset has been sent by someone at the Met Office to McIntyre. The Met Office are trying to find out who did this. I've ascertained it most likely came from there, as I'm the only one who knows where the files are here. See you all later. Phil The fact that the supposedly most prestigious climate research establishment in the world [ CRU ] and the one that the IPCC draws most of it's senior editors from and relies on a great deal of analysis and data no longer has the original unadjusted data (which we don't have) is astonishing. Also from looking they will not stop with the data, but will continue to ask for the original unadjusted data (which we don't have)and then move onto the software used to produce the gridded datasets (the ones we do release). In other words CRU and Jones have lost or [ deliberately or carelessly destroyed ] the only source of [ original ] data which could have been used to reconstruct the past records of our modern climate. And they did this as employees of and paid for by the tax payers and state ie ; bureaucrats for which incompetency of this sort means very serious penalties should be invoked if justice was allowed to follow it's course as it is supposed too. And this with our entire economies involving billions of dollars and massive legislative penalties on the populace and a society that was about to being upheaved and overturned and attempts to restructure our entire western society all entirely on the say so of these incompetents who can't even retain their original climate data just simply defies comprehension and logic of any standard.
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#1044663 - 17/12/2011 11:46
Re: The Climate Change Politics Thread
[Re: ROM]
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Meteorological Motor Mouth
Registered: 29/01/2007
Posts: 6626
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Since I placed the above post on the forum, this morning a couple of high profile skeptic web sites and I understand, a couple of media outlets are now asking similar questions. How and what and why was the US Dept of Energy apparently agreeing with Phil Jones of the UK based CRU to hide data and results? The American's, particularly the American politico's in the present rather poisonous political climate [ Is there any other? ] don't take kindly to this sort of thing where a major Dept is caught out in colluding in what could be seen as a deliberate attempt to hide information that they don't agree with from the politician's and the populace at large. And even worse, colluding with a foreign organisation that already has an aura of fraud and abusement of scientific principles appearing around it. Edit; Climategate Bombshell: Did U.S. Gov't Help Hide Climate Data?
Edited by ROM (17/12/2011 11:52)
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#1049784 - 28/12/2011 16:18
Re: The Climate Change Politics Thread
[Re: mobihci]
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Meteorological Motor Mouth
Registered: 16/12/2001
Posts: 6453
Loc: Kings Langley, NSW
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Might encourage suicide bombers too.
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#1049798 - 28/12/2011 16:59
Re: The Climate Change Politics Thread
[Re: Keith]
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Meteorological Motor Mouth
Registered: 29/01/2007
Posts: 6626
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Trial run?First it is sheep and then???  The sheep and cows across the country burp out more than 10 billion litres of methane every day.
Associate Professor Vercoe, Deputy Director of Animal Production Systems, and Dr Dean Revell from CSIRO, are looking at how to reduce the methane output from grazing livestock. Individual sheep burp out about 20 litres and cattle up to 280 litres of methane a day. “This is a great energy loss for the animals, but more importantly, given the number of farm animals, it is the major source of greenhouse emissions from agriculture,” Professor Vercoe said. Grazing livestock is the nation’s third largest source of emissions. There are around 85 million sheep in Australia, more than 28 million beef cattle, three million dairy cattle and three million farmed goats.
“The sheep breeding project aims to reveal how much of methane production in sheep is related to the genetics. The emissions from sheep are commonly measured in special ‘methane booths’ (pictured left), one sheep at a time, over a 24-hour period. Developing a simple, quick on-farm method such as breath testing will allow us to measure methane from large numbers of sheep in a short time,” Dr Vercoe said. Notice; Immediate Priority "Big Brother" aka Greenpeace & WWF have set your appointment for your methane emissions test at ?? PM. Attendance for this test is mandatory. Any personal methane emissions over and above the set limit will necessitate your immediate culling so we would advise that you have all your post cull legal requirements in place before attending your methane emissions test. Signed BB.
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#1049804 - 28/12/2011 17:27
Re: The Climate Change Politics Thread
[Re: ROM]
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Meteorological Motor Mouth
Registered: 16/12/2001
Posts: 6453
Loc: Kings Langley, NSW
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You know what's next of course. We all have to become vegans.
Must be right, Pachauri said so.
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#1050296 - 29/12/2011 20:12
Re: The Climate Change Politics Thread
[Re: Keith]
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Weatherzone Addict
Registered: 11/11/2005
Posts: 1087
Loc: Canberra
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Another double-message saying heat is "welcome" but it's "bad news for everyone else" except for airconditioner manufacturers!! So, the air-conditioner will make the world a hotter place ay??? It is articles like this that make me want to thump some sense into these greenie rednecks. What a bunch of [censored] they are, they think they can bamboozle us with nonsense like that they have got another thing coming. DAMN YOU CANBERRA TIMES, STOP PUBLISHING THIS TRASH!!!!!  !!!
Edited by Canberra's Weather (29/12/2011 20:21) Edit Reason: Linked te....xt gets dots....automatically inserted....in the middle
_________________________
Way too many above-average temperatures = more ammo for nutty climate professor Flannery
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#1050332 - 29/12/2011 21:28
Re: The Climate Change Politics Thread
[Re: Canberra's Weather]
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Meteorological Motor Mouth
Registered: 29/01/2007
Posts: 6626
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CW,Your annoyance and frustration with the media is very well founded according to most Australians You will see the reason for this post at the end. See if you can find a copy of Wed 28th Dec "The Australian". An article [" Military pulls rank in trust stakes" ] is in there that had a list of the various organisations and from a survey had the levels of trust Australian's placed in those organisations. Apparently the trust was in the organisation and it was made clear in the responses to the survey that most individuals in those organisations weren't trusted much at all. As the article is behind a paywall [  ] I'll just list the organisations and the percentage of those who trusted those orgnisations. Armed Forces = 91% Universities = 80% Police = 79% Banks & Financial Institutions= 56% Major Australian companies = 54% Australian Political system = 53% Federal Parliament = 45% Federal Government = 43% Public service = 41% Legal system = 40% Australian political parties = 31% Trade Unions = 29% And then there was TV = 23% and finally there was The Press = 17% Considering the repulsive reptilian behavior of the UK press, some of which is probably occurring right here in Australia as well, the Press should probably be grateful that they have that many who trust them [/sarc]
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#1050346 - 29/12/2011 21:54
Re: The Climate Change Politics Thread
[Re: ROM]
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Weather Freak
Registered: 28/11/2011
Posts: 533
Loc: Charters Towers
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ROM very interesting stats. Not surprised by the media result. However very surprised by the banking and finance sector getting such a good result. It is very hard for the average Aussie to decipher truth from fiction within media organisations as they only need to put a smattering of truth in the article to make it so ! The blame however needs to sit squarely on the readers shoulders as boring doesn't sell, whether it is the truth or not.
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#1050382 - 29/12/2011 22:36
Re: The Climate Change Politics Thread
[Re: slipperyfish]
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Meteorological Motor Mouth
Registered: 29/01/2007
Posts: 6626
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Just found that Jo Nova has all the statistics and most of the above Australian article on her site; http://joannenova.com.au/
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#1050406 - 29/12/2011 23:07
Re: The Climate Change Politics Thread
[Re: Canberra's Weather]
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Weatherzone Addict
Registered: 31/01/2011
Posts: 1274
Loc: Southern Victoria
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CW , I'm definitely a CAGW skeptic ...
Many of the Design aspects of this article are infact true and in the near future will need to be embraced to save people money .
I DON"T however believe in the way this is being inferred to people , at no stage should peoples lifestyles be forcibly influenced by an ideology that Religious in its attack and what will prove to be a change on the very Course of History world wide . Unfortunately the seeds have been sowed and although reversible many countries will struggle to rebound .
A smarter and better way for people to try and reduce waste ( Energy ) , was to let " all the educated do gooders " install and spend their spare cash helping themselves sleep at night thinking they saved the world , each Carbon kilo at a time. And eventually the Hollywood lifestyle and the useless masses that love to emulate what the " Smiths & Jones " have would follow as it would be the " latest " must have . And keeping this short it would turn out that only those that could afford it would be the ones to change , therefore not Burdening the rest of society .
This system has been clearly working for the last Century and maybe before then .
It's Commonly referred to the " Jewellery , Designer Furniture , Antique , Modern , Coffee , Fine Dining , Sports Car , Exclusivity Set " Syndrome .
The people with too much money spend it , the ones that aspire to try to , the ones that are smarter laugh at both the above , and the battler resentfully has to ignore it .
Why CO2 omission's should be any different is a crime .........
Just a Thought .
_________________________
" I walk around in the Summertime , saying ' how about this Heat ' ! I'm an ............ , a real ........ ............. "
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#1050424 - 29/12/2011 23:55
Re: The Climate Change Politics Thread
[Re: S .O.]
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Meteorological Motor Mouth
Registered: 07/02/2007
Posts: 12878
Loc: Townsville Dry Tropics
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Umm you do know that methane naturally breaks down into carbon and water in 8 to 12 years don't you? Funny how the warmistas NEVER mention that little snippet of information. So methane released by a bog 12 years ago has already broken down and so it will be so forever more.
Also I have been asking this for a few weeks now but no one seems to know, how much methane is burned during a lightning strike? As the planet averages somehwere around 96,000,000 lightning storms every year that should be burning up a fair amount in anyones language. Just saying is all. I'll crawl back into my box now. Night all.
_________________________
lexDyscis luRe!! Scientific knowledge is always tentative and subject to revision. The entire history of science is littered with discarded theories once thought to be incontrovertible truths. Prof David Deming
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#1069001 - 31/01/2012 11:34
Re: The Climate Change Politics Thread
[Re: SBT]
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Meteorological Motor Mouth
Registered: 29/01/2007
Posts: 6626
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The new buzz word; "Sustainable" or "Sustainability" .
Take note, it is now turning up everywhere and has already been thoroughly corrupted by it's use as a major advertising ploy. And just what does it actually mean as we will never run out of resources or energy as neither can be destroyed, just altered in character. If resources are defined as a mineral or some such and the rich mine-able concentrations are exploited and used up we simply change to another source of another mineral for our needs. Copper for communications could have become scarce over the next few tens of years but now silicon, one of Earth's basic materials as the main constituent in fibre optics has replaced copper in a very, very much faster global communication network and the demand for copper in the world's communications networks will or already has declined. And that is just one obvious example. There are hundreds of such replacement technologies down through the ages as one source became scarce another was experimented with, the technology of use developed and the new material or resource was developed and exploited so just what does the newly minted term, the so called "sustainability" actually mean?
Not to support "sustainability' is now a matter of implied guilt and implied exploitation and has become just another alarmist attempt to inducing personal guilt by the green fundamentalists that endeavors to make us all feel culpable and guilty about anything we might enjoy in our lives
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#1076048 - 13/02/2012 21:55
Re: The Climate Change Politics Thread
[Re: ROM]
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Meteorological Motor Mouth
Registered: 29/01/2007
Posts: 6626
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The next IPCC " Assessment Report 5" [ AR5 ] is due in 2013. A draft copy of this report has slipped the leash and is on the roam through the various climate blog sites and has come in for a severe working over much to the dismay of the IPCC. Another angle being followed by some researchers is an analysis of the workings of the IPCC which under Pauchari, hasn't even bothered to follow it's own carefully laid down and required protocols and guidelines in compiling an up to date and scientifically acceptable outline of the current world climate and the anthropogenic impact or non impact on the global climate. Donna Laframboise, a Canadian investigative reporter has uncovered and revealed systematic and deliberate corruption on a large scale within the IPCC in her book, "The Delinquent Teenager who was mistaken for the World's Top Climate Expert". Her book along with the release of the 2nd tranche of Climate Gate e-mails has really lifted the lid on the IPCC and more people are now starting to take a much closer and harder and more cynical look at the IPCC as the reports from the IPCC have in the past had enormous economic, technological, social, bureaucratic and major political impacts and effects, mostly to the ultimate detriment of each of those fields across most western nations. Another researcher, Arthur Rörsch from the Netherlands is doing an analysis of the scientific workings of the IPCC in preparation for the release of the WG1 AR5. WG1 in IPCC parlance refers to" Working Group 1", the group that actually provides and selects the science that will be incorporated into the AR5. The IPCC does no research itself. It's lead authors and editors select and compile the climate related research from numerous sources into a cohesive whole for the report. Dr. Arthur Rörsch's draft copy of his rather damning findings on the WG1 science group of the IPCC can be found at; POST-MODERN SCIENCE AND THE SCIENTIFIC LEGITIMACY OF THE IPCC’S WG1 AR5 DRAFT REPORT Some excerpts from this draft report Outline and recommendation This paper aims to focus the attention of the scientific community in general - and of political and science administrators in particular - on the need for a critical analysis of the performance and recommendations of the UN’s Intergovernmental Panel for Climate Change (IPCC). My key concern has regard to the scientific methodology applied by the IPCC. Some of the Panel’s procedures conform to post-modern science2 practices, thereby deviating from the scientific principles that have traditionally applied throughout the history of western scientific endeavour. The IPCC asserts that dangerous anthropogenic global warming (DAGW) is occurring, and that this is caused by the accumulation of human-related CO2 in the atmosphere. As yet, however, no indisputable scientific proof, or even strong empirical evidence, has been provided for such an effect, which therefore remains a matter of speculation.
& At first sight the report may give the impression of representing a ‘complete work’ of the worldwide scientific community, and a comprehensive summary of the recent research literature. However: • The prevailing hypothesis of the assessment report is that Dangerous Anthropogenic Global Warming (DAGW) is occurring; this hypothesis has been under challenge for many years by numerous independent scientists. These scientists were not invited to participate in the preparation of the AR5 report. • The scientific literature cited in the draft AR5 is selective towards papers that support the DAGW hypothesis, and even the papers that are included are then selectively analysed towards the same end4. These two underlying biases set the tone of the message that the authors of the AR5 report want to transmit. That message is that current manifestations of climate change are the harbinger of unprecedented and threatening global warming, caused by the anthropogenic emissions of CO2 that are accumulating in the atmosphere. However, and despite endless repetition by its proponents, this proposition remains an unproven hypothesis that many scientists disagree with, based upon their knowledge of contradictory empirical evidence. & Some characteristic features of the IPCC draft report CO2 as a major forcing agent for temperature rise All fourteen chapters of the IPCC report start from the assumption that atmospheric CO2 is a dominant forcing agent for global temperature. In some chapters it is even claimed that there is now increasing evidence that the rise of CO2 concentrations is the cause of global warming and other symptoms of climate change. However, the relevant passages, and indeed the whole report, fail to enumerate any such evidence. The ‘evidence’ that the IPCC relies upon is not empirical, but rather is largely based on previously presented hypotheses on the radiation transfer processes that operate within an atmospheric column. But how do these processes work out in the real atmosphere on a global scale? In order to answer this question, IPCC’s modellers use deterministic General Circulation Models (GCMs). These models, in which the climate forcing effect of CO2 is assumed as a given, are run on super computers. DAGW proponents argue that observed climate change today cannot be explained without taking a human forcing effect into account. Since the virtual reality world of the models is very different from the real world, comprising in effect a series of “what-if” experiments, critics retort that the hypothetical impact of CO2 on the global climate system remains speculative. A fundamental critique of the current generation of GCMs is presented in the next section.
& Another remarkable feature of IPCC procedures is the instruction to report authors that they are to express their conclusions in terms of a qualitative (i.e. opinion-based) probability scale.
& Self-appointed experts Regrettably, the use of non-objective pseudo-probability judgement is no longer viewed as an unusual practice in the development of science policy in many scientific institutions. [ edit; Cosmic might like to take the above on board ]
& Lack of respect for alternative, independent views Independent scientists are particularly sensitive to the arrogance and intolerance for alternative views that are displayed by the self-appointed climate experts of the IPCC. Persons who claim to possess superior knowledge in any area of public policy, and not just regarding global warming, and who actively participate in political activity to prevent their views being independently audited (as IPCC scientists consistently have), should be treated with extreme suspicion.
& The most important point to appreciate stemming from this discussion is that the style of the draft AR5 report marks it as a political rather than scientific document, for it has been fashioned within the framework of a particular cultural paradigm. This is the case despite the report containing a thorough and sometimes well comprehended summary of a selection of the peer-reviewed climate literature. Therefore, the subsequent IPCC’s WG 2-3 AR5 reports, which will be based on the draft WG1 report that is under review here, will not serve as the considered, balanced, accurate and dispassionate analyses of climate science and sound public policy that are required. An analysis of climate modeling and many other aspects of the IPCC's scientific or non scientific qualitative processes follow.
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#1076189 - 14/02/2012 11:15
Re: The Climate Change Politics Thread
[Re: ROM]
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Meteorological Motor Mouth
Registered: 29/01/2007
Posts: 6626
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Just a side note. In my curiosity I decided to have another look at the former and highly regarded American President, Dwight D Eisenhower's "Farewell Address to the Nation" in 1961. This Address was the source of the famous "military / industrial complex" warning. And the quote on that warning; This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence -- economic, political, even spiritual -- is felt in every city, every State house, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society.
In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military /industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.
We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together. But there was also another very grave and quotable warning in that speech, one which is rarely ever commented on a but which very much pertains to and is very applicable to the current climate science scene. That warning should carry as much gravitas as the military / industrial complex warning. Akin to, and largely responsible for the sweeping changes in our industrial-military posture, has been the technological revolution during recent decades.
In this revolution, research has become central; it also becomes more formalized, complex, and costly. A steadily increasing share is conducted for, by, or at the direction of, the Federal government.
Today, the solitary inventor, tinkering in his shop, has been overshadowed by task forces of scientists in laboratories and testing fields. In the same fashion, the free university, historically the fountainhead of free ideas and scientific discovery, has experienced a revolution in the conduct of research. Partly because of the huge costs involved, a government contract becomes virtually a substitute for intellectual curiosity. For every old blackboard there are now hundreds of new electronic computers.
The prospect of domination of the nation's scholars by Federal employment, project allocations, and the power of money is ever present and is gravely to be regarded.
Yet, in holding scientific research and discovery in respect, as we should, we must also be alert to the equal and opposite danger that public policy could itself become the captive of a scientific technological elite.
It is the task of statesmanship to mold, to balance, and to integrate these and other forces, new and old, within the principles of our democratic system -- ever aiming toward the supreme goals of our free society. Eisenhower warned of and possibly foresaw the very situation that science and politically driven scientists would gain control and influence and capture power over public policy. and that is precisely what has happened over the last decade and half as global warming scientific elite have gained power over and completely captured public policy as they attempt to shape that public policy to their own personal belief systems and ideologies.
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#1077105 - 17/02/2012 09:24
Re: The Climate Change Politics Thread
[Re: ROM]
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Weatherzone Addict
Registered: 27/12/2007
Posts: 3029
Loc: Brisbane
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Some more reporting on the Heartland saga. http://www.forbes.com/sites/warrenmeyer/...-revealed-here/One of the most interesting points that Warren Meyer makes in the Forbes article is the hypocrisy of people like Andy Revkin at the New York Times who refused to publish the climategate material on the grounds they were stolen documents but immediately began publishing details of the Heartland documents without making any effort to confirm their authenticity. Pro-CAGW blogs have made themselves look extremely foolishly as have others who have posted blithely on weather forums without doing even a cursory check on the material. The shear hypocrisy evident in the manner in which they have reported the Heartland "story" is breathtaking.
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#1080496 - 24/02/2012 18:47
Re: The Climate Change Politics Thread
[Re: Locke]
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Weatherzone Addict
Registered: 01/07/2007
Posts: 3248
Loc: Victoria Pt. SE Qld.
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Interesting to analyse the current leadership dispute.
Rudd's popularity went through the floor after he introduced " ETS Scheme "( read Carbon Tax ).
He was then replaced by Gillard with the promise of No Carbon Tax. She then introduced it, and her vote too went through the floor.
So no good going back to Rudd, as the electorate had demonstrated via opinion polls ( which all leaders do not show interest in - pull the other one ), they do not want a Carbon Tax or a dressed up version.
So if ALP wants to survive and beat Abbott ( or maybe Turnbull in about a year ) this should be dropped.
Steven Smith would romp in without a Carbon Tax..
Edited by retired weather man (24/02/2012 18:48) Edit Reason: spelling
_________________________
Vict Pt.2013(mm)1057(849),Jan-163(177),Feb-378(184),Mar-145(176),Apr-220(117),May-53(106),Jun-98(89),
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#1089092 - 14/03/2012 19:12
Re: The Climate Change Politics Thread
[Re: retired weather man]
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Weather Freak
Registered: 04/04/2010
Posts: 215
Loc: Darwin
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A thought occurred to me which has caused me to propose a quick survey. Most may agree that members of the general public will simply adhere to whatever is presented out there on various websites, newspapers and TV with regards to AGW and simply believe it to be true. Although there are proper surveys done, most of these people are lamens when it comes to climate. They haven't studied it, they have no interest in it and they just repeat what they see and hear or are taught in school. (Mostly). Which led me to the idea of gathering a quick tally of posters on this forum as to where they stand in this great debate. I would assume that people who post here have a better working knowledge of all things weather and climate related, ranging from hobbyists to professionals. Furthermore I would assume that anyone here is one of the following four: Warmista, Luke Warmer, Skeptic or Denier. What interests me is, opposed to surveys done on the general public, whose working knowledge on the survey topic is by and large not to our normal standards of highly (or at least moderately) researched banter, we are all heavily engaged in this topic on an almost daily basis and thus making our opinions based on passion, research and observation. (Highly specialised opinions if you like). We are a demographic of informed citizens... So could I propose a quick survey on our regular debaters as to where they stand? I could guess quite a few, but I don't want to falsely label someone just in case. I know as I am presenting this survey I should remain impartial, so lets just call it a tally instead  ... So I'll start... I'm a skeptic, but moving closer to the denier camp every year that I'm not seeing our promised warming.
_________________________
Chinese proverb: “Only he who has travelled the road knows where the holes are deep”
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