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#966926 - 28/02/2011 12:23 Re: Fraccing or Fracking - Natural Gas and your farm [Re: Greg Sorenson]
mumso Offline
Cloud Gazer

Registered: 30/01/2011
Posts: 10
Loc: Taree, NSW
Hello Everyone. This is the first time I've posted on Weatherzone forum. I live in the Manning Valley in NSW and we've been identified as having a lot of CSG in this area. For some time now there's been a huge fight against mining in the Gloucester area near to us.

My main question is why would anyone in their right mind want to RISK contaminating our aquifers and streams and creeks? This is Australia and everyone knows that over time we go through periods of major drought. Our Artesian Basin is a finite resource and MUST be protected from contamination. Water is life. Without it there is no life. CSG would be no use then.

CSG extraction involves the use of millions of gallons of water. Where does that water come from? What happens when there's a period of major drought? Is the water for CSG extraction going to continue to be used for that purpose?

I've recently been in touch with someone who would like to see a campaign which involves ensuring that our water in Australia is kept clean and pure. That may be a way of ensuring that the miners don't contaminate the water basin. However, as Greg originally pointed out, these operations have to be monitored and our government doesn't have a good record on that score. They won't even raise the tax which would provide for proper monitoring. The mining companies tell them how much tax they can have.

I've also recently been informed that in July 2010 the Australian Government abstained from voting on a United Nations resolution calling on "States and international organisations to provide financial resources, build capacity and transfer technology, particularly to developing countries, in scaling up efforts to provide safe, clean, accessible and affordable drinking water and sanitation for all" The UN sees this as "integral to the realization of all human rights".

Do any of you agree that this means that the Australian Government has, in effect, absolved itself from providing that basic human right to Australians?

People might be interested to know that an organisation called Lock the Gate has formed an alliance with various groups calling for a moratorium on CSG extraction until a Royal Commission has been established to look into the effects of the CSG industry. I can't remember the exact wording but please check the Lock the Gate website.

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#966972 - 28/02/2011 14:32 Re: Fraccing or Fracking - Natural Gas and your farm [Re: mumso]
ant Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 05/10/2002
Posts: 9063
Loc: Overlooking ACT at 848m
That's the big thing... once we contaminate that underground water, we can't fix it. No one can. Having tough penalties to punish companies with won't do a darn bit of good in this situation. Fining someone won't fix the ruined water.

It's high time we focussed on the issue of farmland and water, because as the cities spread over scarce farm land, we lose it. If the underground water was to become contaminated and poisoned, that would render farm land that is viable but marginal now into unviable land.

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#967178 - 28/02/2011 21:42 Re: Fraccing or Fracking - Natural Gas and your farm [Re: ant]
mumso Offline
Cloud Gazer

Registered: 30/01/2011
Posts: 10
Loc: Taree, NSW
It is, to put it mildly, somewhat surprising that a government which claims to be democratic, can be prepared to put at risk the water supply for millions of its people, if not all of them, in the interests of more money for gas companies. To pretend, as governments of all complexions usually do, that what counts is jobs and the economy is short-sighted, since if there is no drinkable water, there will be no people.

In other correspondence on the topic of water and Coal Seam Gas, I suggested that what the pro-water lobby needs is a Mahatma Ghandi. In reply my correspondent said what we need is a Ghengis Khan. She is unfortunately wrong, because Ghengis Gillard is already leading the pro-gas lobby. Now Miss Gillard is a very clever lady, and one can only think that she has calculated what the consequences of the pro-gas-don’t-worry-about-the-water policy may be.

It was plain from the Four Corners broadcast that many residents, and particularly farmers, were being driven to distraction by the degradation of the land and the systematic destruction of their livelihoods, let alone the terrible effects on the health of the families. It is only a short step from distraction to madness. Miss Gillard will be aware of that. The shooting massacre in Tasmania is not that long ago, and we see events like that in the USA all the time.

Miss Gillard must have taken into account that the chances are that in a little while a distracted, maddened farmer, or his wife, will get out the family gun and go on the rampage. Gas company workers and truck drivers on site are the obvious target, but attacks on company offices or even government offices or politicians cannot be ruled out.

National Security advisers will also be pointing out to the Prime Minister that farmers use fertilisers, which are a basic ingredient of terrorist bombs. What will they recommend? All farms should be raided and all guns and fertilisers removed. That is what would happen to potential terrorist homes if the inhabitants were Moslem.

Many of these farms have been in the same family for generations. Many a son or daughter of the agricultural community may have served or be serving in Iraq, or Afghanistan. Some farmers may have served in Vietnam. So may their friends in town.

Someone has already observed on this web-site that “What we need is an Egyptian style revolt”, or words to that effect. God forbid, but the government is doing all it can to provoke the need for such a response if it thinks siding with the gas companies in order to destroy our water is more important than caring for Australia and its people, which is what they were elected to do.

Apparently there is no law to protect the land - or house owner from gas exploration and drilling. There is no legislation to prevent the destruction of the water supply. Even if there were, government efforts to police it would always be too little, too late.

I am reminded of something Winston Churchill said just before the 1914 War when many politicians were of the opinion that war was now a thing of the past. Paraphrasing him to deal with the situation we have now: “Problems from coal seam gas mining are too foolish, too fantastic, to be thought of in the 21st Century…Civilisation has climbed above such perils….The inter-dependence of nations… the sense of public law….have rendered such nightmares impossible. Are you quite sure? It would be a pity to be wrong.”

No-one can be 100% positive that no harm will come to the water supply from the noxious chemicals and the gas. If the reservoirs of Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane were affected the consequences would be catastrophic and the Government is already at war with the people.

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#967345 - 01/03/2011 10:31 Re: Fraccing or Fracking - Natural Gas and your farm [Re: mumso]
Loopy Radar Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 05/10/2010
Posts: 880
Loc: Lismore NSW
20 years ago a bush worker, a faller for the largest logging contractor in the Eden Forestry Management Area, became the very first whistle blower working within the industry. At a media conference with the EPA, Forestry and local protestors, Shane Mitchell dobbed in the contractors for stealing 1% of bush workers pay over 20 years, and forestry workers for marking perfectly good saw logs for the chipper. Of course it didn't make the news. Sahne got the sack a few months after the event, when everything calmed down.
I surveyed logging coups in a 5000h area of the Coolangubra forest and photographed many obvious violations of the Logging Code of Practice. We (Forest Rescue Group) submitted 26 of the worst violations to the Forestry Commission in Sydney. Their response was to send their own Forestry Investigators, and we walked them ragged coz the amount of violations was so widespread. In one instance we argued over a dry creek that had been trashed and completely covered in debris. And even though this creek fitted the Forestry definition of a creek (generally flat bottom with vertical, or near vertical banks) the investigator simply stuck to his guns and said it was a drainage zone.
The forestry response to the investigators report. Scrap the NSW Erosion Mitigation Conditions, and revert to the weaker Federal conditions. Isn't it so easy to keep the exploitation juggernaut bulldozing it's way mostly uninhibited. This is what happens with centralization of power, and in cahoots with big business. What hope has the small local environment group got. It's David vs. Goliath. This is why inevitably we hit the streets to protest.
An EPA officer said to me "You never win in this game. The only way to survive is to be able to see the political situation 4 years ahead, and prepare to be moved sideways, out of 'harms way" It's like 2 steps forward, one step back, or more likely 10 steps forward 9 and 3/4 steps back.
Shane Mitchell also undertook a survey to guage his fellow workers opinion of the package deal for bush workers in a Hawke/Greiner proposal. 9 out of 10 said they'd prefer to get out of the industry. You won't hear that on the evening news. Now many of them are working in better paid and much easier work with as NP rangers making nice little walking trails and emptying rubbish bins.
In 1992, 7 years before all the disputed SE forest was declared NP, a Forestry worker told me that they'd be outta there in about 5 years. Only 2 years off. What did he know that we greenies didn't. But anyway they got most of the good timber in the 1st round of alternate coups and since 99 they have been logging the [censored] out the forest surrounding the new NPs (what isn't already pine plantations)and over a million tonnes of logs still end up at the chipper. And no doubt good saw logs are going into the mix because nothing ever came of Shanes accusation, and despite documented proof of contractors ripping off their employees for 20 years, nothing came of that either.

Our successive governments have progressively sold our land off to global corporate interest. Free trade agreements, and the ETS will be a part of, is a threat to the soveriegnty of nations and human rights are thrown out the door. It gives power to corporations over citizens.



Edited by Loopy Radar (01/03/2011 10:31)
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#967354 - 01/03/2011 10:43 Re: Fraccing or Fracking - Natural Gas and your farm [Re: Loopy Radar]
Loopy Radar Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 05/10/2010
Posts: 880
Loc: Lismore NSW
I used to be totally against nuclear power. But seeing how the mining industry is turning land into a toxic dusty wasteland everywhere I wonder how things would be now, if we had from the beginning kept moat of the uranium for us. Now we wouldn't have a carved up landscape.
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#967382 - 01/03/2011 12:15 Re: Fraccing or Fracking - Natural Gas and your farm [Re: mumso]
ant Offline
Meteorological Motor Mouth

Registered: 05/10/2002
Posts: 9063
Loc: Overlooking ACT at 848m
Originally Posted By: mumso
since if there is no drinkable water, there will be no people.


Sadly, this situation would cause the eyes of big business to light up with greed. No water? They can make some with de-salination plants, powered by huge amounts of power of course (de-sal requires a crapload of power). They could make water and sell it and make more money!

The people would be living in a wasteland and importing badly-grown food from China, and paying through the nose for it all. This is the vision of business, which is driving government policy.

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#967392 - 01/03/2011 12:35 Re: Fraccing or Fracking - Natural Gas and your farm [Re: mumso]
Andy Double U Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 28/10/2006
Posts: 1829
Loc: Mundoolun, SE QLD, 129m ASL
Originally Posted By: mumso


CSG extraction involves the use of millions of gallons of water. Where does that water come from? What happens when there's a period of major drought? Is the water for CSG extraction going to continue to be used for that purpose?



I think this is more emotive reasoning than one based on sound logic. There have been thousands of free flowing bores that have been gushing artesian water to the surface for quite some time. Granted, they are capping them / putting taps on them now, but I wouldn't mind betting the water losses we've seen from these bores would be massive compared to the water taken from CSG bores. I'm not saying that it is a total green light to drilling for CSG, but reasoning along these lines do not really contribute to the argument in a meaningful way.

Unless conclusive evidence is brought to light that sways the argument one way or the other, I think industries need to learn how to co-exist.

Azza, I was just wondering, when mining/exploration permits/leases are issued to a company, is it exclusive or can other companies march on in? I just feel if the miners were made to compete with each other not on just monetary grounds, but on environmental grounds and land holders developed a good network, it would be easy to boot the cowboy operators and employ the better contractors. That way then, all parties might be able to benefit.

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#967632 - 01/03/2011 21:57 Re: Fraccing or Fracking - Natural Gas and your farm [Re: Andy Double U]
AzzaG Offline
Cloud Gazer

Registered: 20/02/2011
Posts: 37
Loc: Central Queensland
Andy,

When a company is granted an exploration lease it is known as an ATP (Authority to Prospect), and the answer to your question is yes, each of these ATP's are exclusive to that particular company...

However (big however) there are different type's of ATP's... Firstly the CSG industry falls under the Petroleum & Gas Act, and the way it works is no 2 of these leases can overlap each other, however companies can go into agreement's with each other and the government to basically enter into "share farm" agreements (not sure of the exact term of this), in which they can explore together on the one lease exchanging information...

The mining industry falls under the Mining Act, once again as far as I am aware, mining ATP's cannot overlap each other and basically work similar to the P & G act, however, mining and P & G ATP's can overlap each other, so that is why it is so common to have mining and gas companies basically drilling right next to each other...

Also once it comes to production Mining Lease's and Petroleum leases can also overlap each other, but 2 mining leases cannot overlap nor can 2 petroleum leases...

Hope this answers your question...


Edited by AzzaG (01/03/2011 21:59)
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#967644 - 01/03/2011 22:08 Re: Fraccing or Fracking - Natural Gas and your farm [Re: AzzaG]
AzzaG Offline
Cloud Gazer

Registered: 20/02/2011
Posts: 37
Loc: Central Queensland
Apologies, I have just turned to my books and have discovered mining ATP's can overlap eachother... But P & G ATP's cannot...

My apologies...
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#968110 - 02/03/2011 19:21 Re: Fraccing or Fracking - Natural Gas and your farm [Re: AzzaG]
sharky Offline
Cloud Gazer

Registered: 01/03/2011
Posts: 2
Loc: central queensland
Guys, why is it only QGC mentioned in the media,what are they doing different to all other energy company's.As far as i was aware they all had a bad rep,but QGC seem to be copping the brunt of it all.I'm interested in QGC,the reason i ask is i may have a job with them in the very near future,and having second thoughts about it.
cheers

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#968132 - 02/03/2011 20:37 Re: Fraccing or Fracking - Natural Gas and your farm [Re: sharky]
AzzaG Offline
Cloud Gazer

Registered: 20/02/2011
Posts: 37
Loc: Central Queensland
Sharky,

I believe the main reason QGC are coping all the flak is, they have the biggest leases in the more sensitive locations, like areas with high grade cropping and intensively farmed lands...

I know I knocked them a bit in a few of my earlier posts (if you read back) but i guess i probably should have elaborated a bit more... QGC used to be a pretty top notch company with the way they went about there business until British Gas brought them out a couple of years back, and ever since then they have basically been on a downward spiral, in particular the way the dealt with landholders... I am aware of a few good men who left after BG came in for the simple reason, they couldn't stand where the company was heading and their practices...

However that said, as much as the 4 corners story dis-agreed, they are slowly but surely getting better (they do have a long way to go though)... They have definitely starting to realise the error of there ways...

Yes no one really likes the gas industry, but the big thing is here "education, education, education" and up until now no companies have been any good at that (including the company i work for, Arrow Energy)... No one knows what is involved with gas extraction, to many people draw there conclusion's to its done exactly the same as the American Industry, its completely different, cheese and chalk...

Mate I would encourage you to take the job with QGC, it will really open your eyes to the real picture, and not all the propaganda people are throwing out, who realistically have no idea...
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Hoping for good weather everytime you go fishing is like waiting for the government to announce tax cuts... Its not going to happen

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#968174 - 02/03/2011 22:02 Re: Fraccing or Fracking - Natural Gas and your farm [Re: AzzaG]
sharky Offline
Cloud Gazer

Registered: 01/03/2011
Posts: 2
Loc: central queensland
Thanks Azza

Yes they do seem to have a few sensitive leases,this is what i was thinking.Most of the "noise" i keep hearing is coming from the rural residential type areas.Your average cocky with large property seems to be happy with the energy co's,they maintain the roads,new fencing,new water sources,generate income for him,etc etc.

Education is the key here.They admitted to me the standard is up here somewhere,but we are down here and learning as we go(lol what)

I was talking to a drilling inspector(derm) yesterday,would you believe they only have 4 inspectors in Qld.My opinion is,an inspector should be on site to oversee these operations to make sure it's done safely and to standards,just my 2 cent worth.

Being a relatively new resource in Aust,hopefully in decades to come we can look back on this and be proud that we didn't follow what the Yanks have done.Only time will tell.

Hope the job offer comes soon,already had interviews and medical the suspense is killing me...lol

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#972150 - 08/03/2011 23:41 Re: Fraccing or Fracking - Natural Gas and your farm [Re: sharky]
Sara B Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 30/01/2011
Posts: 318
Loc: Dugandan
Coal Seam Gas is the Devil - and noone is going to convince me otherwise.
Subsurface hydrology is generally poorly studied and understood, so how could it even be possible to predict the full range of impacts that CSG operations will have on our most productive agricultural regions (and soils, subsoils, aquifers, hydrology, drainage, connectivity). I am thinking beyond the short term profits and gains. It is not acceptable to risk damage or impact to the integrity of the landscape - specifically impacts to water quality. It is not acceptable to risk valuable ecosystem services - upon which we are dependant. The recent floods hit home to me just how important local and regional food production systems are, how important our farming communities are. We should act now to ensure a sustainable future. The environment is not a laboratory - I know of not one successfully rehabilitated minesite that has resumed its former function and capacity for agricultural land-use. The precautionary principle must be applied especially in the case of CSG - a technology that is as yet unproven and will bear with it unknown impacts!

oh and God help us if we ever do walk down the path of nuclear power generation- we will end up just like USA, shoddy dumpsites scattered all around the landscape, continual ups (contamination scares, spills, gas leaks, you name it - the mining industry is capable of it- lots of risk taking all the time) and to think of where the responsibilities will fall... I mean in my area local gov can't even keep the roads fixed in a serviceable condition, let alone regulate the management of toxic nuclear waste dumps or even ensure a safe transport route, no thanks, rather deal with coal dust and associated contaminants in the water supply. Personally I am hoping the Government will wake up and see the LIGHT - well photovoltaic that is.


Edited by bigwilly (20/03/2011 09:49)
Edit Reason: There is to be no swearing on the forums

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#975550 - 16/03/2011 23:42 Re: Fraccing or Fracking - Natural Gas and your farm [Re: Sara B]
AzzaG Offline
Cloud Gazer

Registered: 20/02/2011
Posts: 37
Loc: Central Queensland
Chunky,

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and yes you are right about sub-surface hydrology being poorly studied, however you will find most CSG companies employ ground water modelers, in fact Arrow have 5 permanent modelers employed ... I shall remind everyone, coal seam gas is "not" a new industry in Queensland, all the hype has begun since the approvals have started to be handed up by the government for the LNG projects on Curtis Island of Gladstone...

Companies have been producing gas in Queensland for about 20 years and exploring for close to 40 years, these include Origin(the eldest), Queensland Gas Company(Owned by British Gas), Arrow Energy (formerly CH4, now owned in a Joint Venture by Royal Dutch Shell and Petrochina) and Santos (yes there are more exploration companies, and more smaller ones but these at the main LNG players)... Here at Arrow we have had 500 wells producing 45 Tera Joules (45 Million Cubic Feet) of gas per day, for the past 11 years, and we have not seen a drop in the water table at all, even with the 30 odd mines that are in the area (which have massive de-watering bores emptying every water aquifer they come across between the coal seam and the surface, each mine will empty more water from the water table than our 500 wells will per year 10 fold, if not more)...

But oh well, i could talk all day, but at the end of it all, no one will take any notice of me, they will form there apparent more "educated" opinions... Meanwhile the Mining Industry is rubbing there hands together because there competition (CSG) is being smoke-screened by worthless scare-mongering, even though our footprint is 1 tenth of what there's is, talk to any landowner in the Bowen Basin and they will tell you they would take gas companies over mining any day if they had the choice...

People seem to think that the studies haven't been done, they have! Science tells us CSG has minimal to no effect on the water table what so ever, existing Gas Field's show little effect, and science has always been and will always remain just best guess anyway...
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#975707 - 17/03/2011 14:31 Re: Fraccing or Fracking - Natural Gas and your farm [Re: AzzaG]
Loopy Radar Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 05/10/2010
Posts: 880
Loc: Lismore NSW
quote AzzaG "..and yes you are right about sub-surface hydrology being poorly studied,..."
In your first sentence you negate your argument. And I don't for a minute think that CSG is going away. But the reality is most big companies do whatever the [censored] they need to do to keep expanding and increasing profits. What are future generations going to think about how we collectively raped the planet, which is the most appropriate term for how a couple of generations have gorged on most of it. Oh well,let's just leave it for our childrens childrens children can pay for any serious ramifications that happen to pop up down the track because the studies hadn't been done.
Sorry, but I'm in a cranky mood because I keep getting all these reasons to see what an arrogant 'enlightened' bunch of westerners we are. And I don't excuse myself for my own youthful arrogance fading with age. We have sold out to a political and economic system that defies physics, encourages greed, and destroys communities.
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#975740 - 17/03/2011 16:06 Re: Fraccing or Fracking - Natural Gas and your farm [Re: AzzaG]
mumso Offline
Cloud Gazer

Registered: 30/01/2011
Posts: 10
Loc: Taree, NSW
Originally Posted By: AzzaG

People seem to think that the studies haven't been done, they have! Science tells us CSG has minimal to no effect on the water table what so ever, existing Gas Field's show little effect, and science has always been and will always remain just best guess anyway...


Who are the scientists who say the above about CSG having "minimal to no effect on the water table"? What about the National Water Commission identifying a variety of risks and saying that cumulative impacts were not well understood?

Why would anyone in their right mind want to risk a problem with water by mining in the head waters of rivers or anywhere near river systems including underground aquifers?

Last year, JP Morgan, one of the world's biggest merchant banks produced a report which "raised serious questions about the reliability and safety of the $50 billion coal seam gas industry."

Their report "cited six key water concerns caused by industry, including a reduction in the water supply to towns and landowners, reduced quality" (of water), "gas migration to water bores and migration of salt".

Gas exploration licences are being granted without proper public consultaion. The most recent being in the Shoalhaven area where the local council weren't even consulted.

Australia is supposed to be a democracy. Why is there such an apparent attempt the get the mining done at all costs? Actually, the answer to that is in an earlier part of this post...There are $50 billion reasons not to consult the public. It seems that money talks and means more than ensuring our water is kept safe and pure.

Mining in any form should not be permitted to contaminate our water.

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#975874 - 17/03/2011 21:55 Re: Fraccing or Fracking - Natural Gas and your farm [Re: Loopy Radar]
Loopy Radar Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 05/10/2010
Posts: 880
Loc: Lismore NSW
Originally Posted By: Loopy Radar
quote AzzaG "..and yes you are right about sub-surface hydrology being poorly studied,..."
In your first sentence you negate your argument. And I don't for a minute think that CSG is going away. But the reality is most big companies do whatever the [censored] they need to do to keep expanding and increasing profits. What are future generations going to think about how we collectively raped the planet, which is the most appropriate term for how a couple of generations have gorged on most of it. Oh well,let's just leave it for our childrens childrens children can pay for any serious ramifications that happen to pop up down the track because the studies hadn't been done.
Sorry, but I'm in a cranky mood because I keep getting all these reasons to see what an arrogant 'enlightened' bunch of westerners we are. And I don't excuse myself for my own youthful arrogance fading with age. We have sold out to a political and economic system that defies physics, encourages greed, and destroys communities.


"People seem to think that the studies haven't been done, they have! Science tells us CSG has minimal to no effect on the water table what so ever,.."
and
"..and yes you are right about sub-surface hydrology being poorly studied,..."
Perhaps you should check the script first.
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#975921 - 17/03/2011 23:20 Re: Fraccing or Fracking - Natural Gas and your farm [Re: Loopy Radar]
AzzaG Offline
Cloud Gazer

Registered: 20/02/2011
Posts: 37
Loc: Central Queensland
Ok, i see how my words didn't really match up i did sound really stupid... So i will elaborate more for you all

1. I still say that sub surface hydrology has been poorly studied, especially by the government they have hardly studied it and i would support a halt on CSG to undertake a moratorium... However that said CSG companies are constantly undertaking studies, big studies were done by CSG companies and 3rd party companies before there Environmental Approvals were handed down for each LNG project... But the government to my knowledge never undertook there own individual study, which is definitely needed and i agree that they need to do there own... Now I know everyone is going CSG companies will twist everything there own way to get what they want... But i tell you now I worked with a lot of people heavily involved and in charge of these studies and not only are they some of the biggest hippies of have ever met (haha i seriously met one bloke who wouldn't even let me drive my vehicle off the road in case i crushed some special plant) but they are also some of the nicest and most genuine people I know, and for someone to suggest to me that these amazing people lean all that weight towards the CSG companies so that they get what they want, well I would find that offensive... But yes even though we have done these big studies i would still class sub surface hydrology as poorly studied outside of the CSG industry...

2. Ongoing study is needed, and you will find most companies have monitoring bores all over the place, looking for changes and drops in large underground streams and aquifers... Yes Mumso I am constantly hearing all these reports from important people stating the same things over and over again, so my question is what studies have they got to prove these major problems already exist, how many incidents in Australia can they come up with, have they done any ground water modeling before or know anything about it... Yes I saw the 4 corners story and if you read back through this thread I have already provided answers for all that you saw on there and if you have more questions please do not be afraid to ask... But I do support that constant ongoing study should always be undertaken by CSG companies as well as the government in this industry... Ohh i thought i might add that, the same water that CSG companies are bringing up from underground, is the exact same water mining companies have been pumping down river systems for 60 years... Most people don't realise that...

3. You are right the government are desperate for cash and they are handing out exploration license's like no tomorrow, if you knew the amount of exploration permits the QLD government handed out in a rush before they pushed through there own new laws you would be horrified... I for one wish there was no coal underground down in the Surat Basin, that area is such pristine farm land, and yes I wish the government would at least limit the amount of Authorities to Prospect they grant in those intensively farmed areas... I am not going to sit here and tell you that CSG companies and farming can co-exist in areas like around Roma, Cecil Plains and Dalby because the fact is in most cases they won't, but unfortunately we have a government desperate for whatever money they can get there hands on...

I am not going to argue any more points in this thread, people have made up there minds i can see that clearly and i don't hold that against you, this is a free country (well at least it is supposed to be)... But i beg you, if you have any questions please ask, do not just assume...
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#976009 - 18/03/2011 09:12 Re: Fraccing or Fracking - Natural Gas and your farm [Re: AzzaG]
Sara B Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 30/01/2011
Posts: 318
Loc: Dugandan
My main concerns re: CSG is the impact on Ecological integrity & Water quality. My concerns are not limited to CSG but extend to the impacts from all mining industry.
Yes everyone is entitled to their opinion and maybe the truth is somewhere inbetween. The point about a thread like this is that other people provide dialogue and challenge our own understanding - so thats a good thing - I think!
Interestingly enough, I don't disagree with some of the points that Azza has made - especially the point about coal mines dewatering coal seams and discharging into our rivers, yet another thing that I have never agreed with. I graduated back in 2004, suppose it doesn't seem that long ago but one of the key messages I took with me is that Dilution is not the Solution to Pollution. The whole practice surrounding our mining industry at large needs a shake-up because right now its just a free for all - and yes they (the CSG companies or other mining corporations) do invest significantly in environmental studies, management systems to ensure their operations reach compliance. But as you and others have touched upon - the government should be doing more research and studies and in my opinion, a particular focus needs to be on identifying the cumulative and long-term impact of all industry. Broadly speaking - it all needs to be weighed up at the landscape, regional and then local scale with consideration to ecological integrity, carrying capacity, finite resources (namely soil & water) and how this also impacts on food production. We must not forget about future generations and the responsibility that we carry as custodians of the earth.
One day The Government will need to grow some teeth, stand up against the big boys and say NO- it is enough - we won't give approval for land-use that is incompatible with core agricultural or food production areas. The mining industry needs to be constrained - it is not providing for a sustainable Future!


Edited by chunkyluxtrax (18/03/2011 09:17)

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#976389 - 19/03/2011 15:22 Re: Fraccing or Fracking - Natural Gas and your farm [Re: AzzaG]
mumso Offline
Cloud Gazer

Registered: 30/01/2011
Posts: 10
Loc: Taree, NSW
Thanks AzzaG, for saying you'll answer questions. Please can you tell me exactly what chemicals are used in the fraccing process?

Regarding your comment about the type of person who sometimes does a study on behalf of the CSG company; they may well be the nicest person who is environmentally savvy, however, they are EMPLOYED by the CSG company. The old saying is "Don't bite the hand that feeds you" and I think that it would apply in this case.

You also said that "the same water that CSG companies are bringing up from underground, is the exact same water mining companies have been pumping down river systems for 60 years..." Where did you get this information from?

Thanks Azzag.


Edited by mumso (19/03/2011 15:24)
Edit Reason: missed out word

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