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#1487824 - 30/01/2019 11:13 Re: Will we see 50 degrees celsius again in Australia [Re: TranslucidusW]
Knot Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 01/05/2014
Posts: 2624
Loc: Toronto N.S.W
@Blair

What happened to the raw thermometer data so those inclined can check the veracity of the conclusion in your paper on page 35 'No evidence was found of any significant systematic impact arising from the change from manual to automatic weather stations (other than that associated with site moves which often accompanied the changes)
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#1487828 - 30/01/2019 11:48 Re: Will we see 50 degrees celsius again in Australia [Re: Markus]
Eigerwand Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 28/05/2012
Posts: 398
Originally Posted By: Markus
It would be incredibly interesting to set up an AWS on the shores of Lake Eyre, or even one of those portable AWS's out on the lake when it is dry, during the hottest parts of the year. You'd have to think in the heatwaves we've had this year, multiple 50 degree days have occurred and maybe even 51+ degrees. I wonder what effect the salty whiteish surface would have on the temperature, whether it would reflect light up and under the AWS raising the temperature in the Stevenson screen, or whether the lake reflecting as a whole would push the temperature down a little, something I've sometimes wondered.


Well, if the Stevenson screen were painted black then perhaps the increased reflection would perhaps come into play? But thats why theyre white I guess haha.
Albedo through snow and ice acts to cool, a salt lake would be similar id imagine.

It is interesting to think about but I imagine undulating red sands on a still day would allow for more extreme heat than a wide open salt lake?

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#1487842 - 30/01/2019 12:56 Re: Will we see 50 degrees celsius again in Australia [Re: TranslucidusW]
Kino Online   content
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 10/08/2017
Posts: 3145
Loc: Wollongong, NSW, Aus
So, despite all the hype - we still didn't see a 50?

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#1487848 - 30/01/2019 13:45 Re: Will we see 50 degrees celsius again in Australia [Re: TranslucidusW]
StormCapture Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 19/12/2013
Posts: 1715
Loc: Uleybury
Yer 50 is the magic number that tends to avoid the AWS network despite a few near misses. Our network should be expanded but it is very hard giving how expensive the weather stations are, Even if it is just a Temperature staion only would be nice.
Another issue is getting to them as some would be in the middle of nowhere and roads will become an issue so there is another factor present. Helicopter anyone? poke

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#1487850 - 30/01/2019 13:49 Re: Will we see 50 degrees celsius again in Australia [Re: Markus]
StormCapture Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 19/12/2013
Posts: 1715
Loc: Uleybury
Originally Posted By: Markus
It would be incredibly interesting to set up an AWS on the shores of Lake Eyre, or even one of those portable AWS's out on the lake when it is dry, during the hottest parts of the year. You'd have to think in the heatwaves we've had this year, multiple 50 degree days have occurred and maybe even 51+ degrees. I wonder what effect the salty whiteish surface would have on the temperature, whether it would reflect light up and under the AWS raising the temperature in the Stevenson screen, or whether the lake reflecting as a whole would push the temperature down a little, something I've sometimes wondered.


Lake Eyre and surrounds will be a nice hotspot for a few and to test out that theory. Cook as well comes to mind for an automatic station. It is a smorgasboard on where some areas would be great to have an AWS to capture such data.
Mount Bryan is another especially come winters when a good polar blast hits.

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#1487855 - 30/01/2019 14:05 Re: Will we see 50 degrees celsius again in Australia [Re: TranslucidusW]
Markus Offline
Weatherzone Moderator

Registered: 02/12/2010
Posts: 2253
Loc: Clare, SA
Ah, for some season I had -80m altitude in my mind for lake eyer, but the lowest point is -12m, I must have been remembering death valleys low point.

In this case yeah, even 50 degrees this year would be dubious there.

The thing with lake eyers surface, and why I said it has a whiteish surface, is organic matter and sediment often coats much of the surface after flood events causing an array of varying colours from the air. Just a quick look at satellite shows it's quite dark in the north varying to pure white in patches in the south. Whether this greyish colour would absorb more energy than the red desert sands I'm not sure.

And in regards to the reflecting, i'm sure the white paint and wood structure of the screens insulates almost all of the sunlight energy from heating the box, but surely it couldn't be 100% effective. Or maybe it is, I dunno.

I think such remote stations are rarely pure white due to dust sticking from dusty rainfall events and dust storms. I was in Andamooka late last year and noticed the Stevenson screen despite being manually checked by a local shopkeeper had a thin layer of desert dust stuck to the top and to a lesser extent the sides. Once again how much of a difference this might make I don't know, could be very small but the box was noticeably darker than pure white.

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#1487947 - 30/01/2019 20:06 Re: Will we see 50 degrees celsius again in Australia [Re: Blair Trewin]
Jac0b Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 17/12/2018
Posts: 77
Originally Posted By: Blair Trewin
Originally Posted By: Jac0b
As far as I'm aware BOM takes one-second spot readings but doesn't average.

It would be very interesting to compare the old mercury and alcohol thermometers that were used before the late 1990's and the new AWS now.

Maybe have an AWS and an old style thermometer running parallel and do a comparison. That would be very useful.


Ask and you shall receive:

http://www.bom.gov.au/research/publications/researchreports/BRR-032.pdf

(Section 4 is the place to go).

Spoiler: no significant difference.


Thanks, that was a very interesting and insightful read.

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#1488214 - 31/01/2019 18:46 Re: Will we see 50 degrees celsius again in Australia [Re: TranslucidusW]
crikey Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 01/02/2011
Posts: 2839
Loc: Tweed Heads
I don't understand why these rogue automated max temps keep ,appearing. Here is another one to add to the automated global warming
50.3C
Warra, Tas
from weatherzone extremes this month?

scroll to botton of page
http://www.weatherzone.com.au/
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#1488232 - 31/01/2019 19:42 Re: Will we see 50 degrees celsius again in Australia [Re: crikey]
yep Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 04/07/2013
Posts: 455
Loc: Hobart
Originally Posted By: crikey
I don't understand why these rogue automated max temps keep ,appearing. Here is another one to add to the automated global warming
50.3C
Warra, Tas
from weatherzone extremes this month?

scroll to botton of page
http://www.weatherzone.com.au/


Its in the bushfire zone, if you go to the BoM page for the half-hourly observations you can see what may have happened. It took a while for it to come down after spiking and it happened late evening.
Obviously BoM has trigger warnings for readings like that and it won't be recognised as official.

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#1488236 - 31/01/2019 19:48 Re: Will we see 50 degrees celsius again in Australia [Re: TranslucidusW]
crikey Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 01/02/2011
Posts: 2839
Loc: Tweed Heads
thanks for that 'YEP' ., Let me know when the reading is removed and how long it takes to process. Interesting.
regards
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#1488246 - 31/01/2019 20:18 Re: Will we see 50 degrees celsius again in Australia [Re: crikey]
yep Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 04/07/2013
Posts: 455
Loc: Hobart
Originally Posted By: crikey
thanks for that 'YEP' ., Let me know when the reading is removed and how long it takes to process. Interesting.
regards


It looks like it wasn't recognised straight away when the daily observation table was updated shortly after 9am, for the maximums
http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/dwo/201901/html/IDCJDW7058.201901.shtml

I have a feeling weatherzone doesn't recognise these automated errors as BoM does.


Edited by yep (31/01/2019 20:21)

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#1488256 - 31/01/2019 20:57 Re: Will we see 50 degrees celsius again in Australia [Re: TranslucidusW]
Steve777 Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 20/10/2011
Posts: 4778
Loc: Artarmon (Sydney North Shore)
I recall back in 2013 during a heatwave and bushfires in Tasmania, the AWS at Dunally on Tasmania's East coast recorded the hottest record in Tasmania, Australia and the World (59.9 deg, possibly the upper limit of the device?) before it went offline as the fires approached.


Edited by Steve777 (31/01/2019 21:00)

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#1489238 - 05/02/2019 18:14 Re: Will we see 50 degrees celsius again in Australia [Re: TranslucidusW]
crikey Offline
Weatherzone Addict

Registered: 01/02/2011
Posts: 2839
Loc: Tweed Heads
Crikey > Yep...Here is another one YEP , if you could investigate on BOM climate data.
Highest Max ..Mardie 50.5 deg c. FEB 1998..?
In the pilbarra WA l believe
http://www.weatherzone.com.au/climate/station.jsp?lt=site&lc=5008
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#1489282 - 05/02/2019 21:00 Re: Will we see 50 degrees celsius again in Australia [Re: TranslucidusW]
teckert Offline
Weatherzone Moderator

Registered: 27/05/2001
Posts: 17642
Loc: NE suburbs, Adelaide, South Au...
Crikey, http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/averages/tables/cw_005008_All.shtml
it's the second highest official temp recorded in Australia.

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#1489286 - 05/02/2019 21:51 Re: Will we see 50 degrees celsius again in Australia [Re: TranslucidusW]
yep Offline
Weather Freak

Registered: 04/07/2013
Posts: 455
Loc: Hobart
The 50.5 at Mardie is on this page too:

http://www.bom.gov.au/cgi-bin/climate/extremes/monthly_extremes.cgi?period=%2Fcgi-bin%2Fclimate%2Fextremes%2Fmonthly_extremes.cgi&climtab=tmax_high&area=aus&year=2019&mon=2

Weatherzone lists -7.4c at Mt Wellington on February 19th 1994 as Australia's lowest temp for the month of February. This is way too low and obviously incorrect but it does appear in the daily summaries for that year for Mt Wellington, but not in the Extreme Low Temperature table for Tasmania/Australia

http://www.bom.gov.au/cgi-bin/climate/extremes/monthly_extremes.cgi?period=%2Fcgi-bin%2Fclimate%2Fextremes%2Fmonthly_extremes.cgi&climtab=tmin_low&area=tas&year=2019&mon=2


Edited by yep (05/02/2019 21:54)

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#1489291 - 05/02/2019 21:58 Re: Will we see 50 degrees celsius again in Australia [Re: yep]
Mcbobbings Online   content
Weather Freak

Registered: 22/06/2018
Posts: 81
Weatherzone temp records are inaccurate in many cases. It lists a -20c for Mt. Hotham in November. That is clearly incorrect.

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