Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive

Posted by: Simmosturf

Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 30/10/2009 21:31

Please no arguments about the validity of the stories either pro or con, just want to read as much as possible on the issue...

The Earth Cools, and Fight Over Warming Heats Up

Many Scientists Say Temperature Drop From Recent Record Highs Is a Blip, While a Few See a Trend; Inexact Climate Models

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125686509223717691.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_LEFTTopStories
Posted by: BOM99

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 30/10/2009 22:28

I am far from certain yet that any cooling has taken place. As far as I am concerned the jury is still out on that. Unfortunately we will have to waite possibly at least until 2020 before any cooling could be considered significant. One thing that is not being taken into account very well is the fact that the heating is far from even. Continents are warming more in the summer when a heating weather pattern takes place but still are able to reach the lows of winter when heating patterns are removed. I think that the extra warmth from CO2 may be far more volotile than the way models predict. It is far from a simple add 2deg to all temps and there is your result as most models seem to suggest.

Certainly here any cooling of 2007/8 has already been wiped out by 2009. And when you look at temps in continental Russia you still see very widespread + anomalies through the summer and early autumn and only brief spikes reaching normal winter lows.

Anyway as far as I can see the jury is out on any cooling, at this stage its no different to one mild day in a month of heat and nothing to get exited about.
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 30/10/2009 23:04

that,s not a news article? Please no arguments about the validity of the stories either pro or con, just want to read as much as possible on the issue...
What's the thread called?
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 30/10/2009 23:11

Here's an example,

Cold Facts on Global Warming
What is the contribution of anthropogenic carbon dioxide to global warming? This question has been the subject of many heated arguments, and a great deal of hysteria. In this article, we will consider a simple estimate based on well-accepted facts, that shows that the expected global temperature increase caused by doubling atmospheric carbon dioxide levels is bounded by an upper limit of 1.76±0.27 degrees Celsius. This result contrasts with the results of the IPCC's climate models, whose projections are shown to be unrealistically high. Even though global warming has become mostly an academic concern now that the climate has moved into a cooling phase [24], it's still important to understand what is and is not factual about the climate.
http://brneurosci.org/co2.html
Posted by: Anemoi

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 31/10/2009 01:04

How about videos
A self-proclaimed former AGW 'skeptic' and his amazing footage and commentary on the significant increase in glacier melting due to global warming.
Part of a global ice survey.
Excellent talk from an intelligent informed person, who has literally seen it for themselves.

Time-lapse proof of extreme ice loss
extreme ice loss

About this talk

Photographer James Balog shares new image sequences from the Extreme Ice Survey, a network of time-lapse cameras recording glaciers receding at an alarming rate, some of the most vivid evidence yet of climate change.
Posted by: mobihci

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 31/10/2009 01:54

oh is a TED show hehe. i can see this thread being locked quickly..

the glaciers percentage is an exact inverse of the AMO, gee who would have thought..
Posted by: mobihci

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 31/10/2009 01:58

Quote:
Originally posted by Simmosturf:
that,s not a news article? Please no arguments about the validity of the stories either pro or con, just want to read as much as possible on the issue...
What's the thread called?
there is no point to that. all we would see is spin. i think we shoud be open to discuss the science and not just the medias rubbish.
Posted by: Vlasta

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 31/10/2009 01:58

Anemoi
Most fascinating time lapse I have seen . But thats all that is . It doesnt proof anything . It only proofs that the author of that is an alarmist. Why he didnt go to that harbour in Alaska which was was bloged by advancing glacier and wiped out livehood of some fishermen ?
It woudnt suite his boss who grants him.
Simple question . Why the Fox and Franz Joseph glaciers are advancing , and the Tasman glacier is retreating ? All 3 have same accumulation zone !! If you work it out , then you must agree with me , that the author is missleading and should go to jail .
Posted by: mobihci

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 31/10/2009 02:25

http://www.tsaugust.org/Global_Warming_Articles_Pg2.htm#Warming

peer reviewed article from braithwaite-

http://ppg.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/26/1/76

Glaciers and Global Warming.

The retreat of some glaciers has been widely reported in the media. What has not been widely reported is that some glaciers are increasing in mass.

Within Europe,"Alpine glaciers are generally shrinking, Scandinavian glaciers are growing, and glaciers in the Caucasus are close to equilibrium for 1980-95." According to Dr. R. J. Braithwaite, (School of Geography, University of Manchester, England)

Temperatures undoubtedly affect glaciers. The question is: Are glaciers a proxy for the canaries that signaled danger in coal mines, in so far as global warming is concerned?

There are only 115 glaciers that have a five year record of mass balance data and only 42 that have a ten year data record.

In an analysis of mass balance in Arctic glaciers, it was found that the rate of loss of mass has decreased in the recent past, a period in which increasing amounts of CO2 should have resulted in faster loss of mass if there were a direct correlation between global warming, CO2 and loss of mass in glaciers.

Even more telling is that there are 160,000 glaciers in the world and only 67,000 (42%) have been inventoried to any extent. There are only slightly more than 200 for which mass balance data is available for one year or more (including the 115 mentioned above).

It is not possible for such a small (200) sample, not selected randomly, to provide a scientific basis for drawing any conclusions about the relationship between glaciers and global warming.

In addition the retreat of some glaciers can be attributed to a specific cause. For example, Mt Kilimanjaro has lost 80% of its glacier since 1912. Findings recently published by Nature indicate that the loss of forests on Kilimanjaro’s foothills has been the cause of the glaciers demise. The lack of humidity from the forests to replenish and sustain the glacier has resulted in the glacier melting under the equatorial sun. Furthermore, satellite temperature readings taken since 1979 show no increase in the temperature of the troposphere in the Kilimanjaro region.

January 25, 2004
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 31/10/2009 06:41

Oh ok then mobi, go for your life.
:wave: :wave: That was a good story.
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 31/10/2009 07:31

Vlasta,

The Tasman system and the Franz Fox systems are very different in nature, and about the only thing they have in common is high level snowfalls and a location in New Zealand.

The Tasman is a piedmont glacier, sustained by ice flow from lateral sources, especially the Hochstetter Icefall that descends from the Grand Plateau. In living memory some of these feeder sources have shrunk back from the piedmont trunk of the Tasman so that they contribute only melt water, not ice. The Tasman is now rotten with melt water from top to bottom and is disappearing into lakes. Until the core temperature falls below freezing this wasting will continue apace, as the healthy flows from those tributary glaciers that continue to contribute cannot replace the loss and the head neve around Tasman Saddle is on its own too small to nourish a glacier of its length.

The Fox and Franz are now individual ice streams, and very spectacular ones too. They benefit from the much higher precipitation on the west coast of the south island. The cycle of these glaciers is incredibly short, and they renew themselves in less than a decade. They exhibit short term advance and retreat cycles related directly to precipitation. By comparison some of the ice that has stangated on the bottom of the deepest parts of the Tasman has been found to be nearly as old as the current glaciation, that is, around 600 years.
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 31/10/2009 07:42

mobihci,


The empirical facts about temperate zone glaciers is that they are overwhelmingly wasting away. They have vanished into grasses, stones and remnant ice pools in West Papua. They have vanished or shrunk from much of South America in terms of extent, and this is also true of North America, Europe and the Himalayas. There were a few standouts, including alas only a tiny part of the European Scandinavian ice fields and on Mt Shasta in California, where we see a direct correlation with increased rainfall from lower level stations. The 'were' bit is sad but true. Last northern summer held out the promise of significant enduring snow pack at higher elevations in parts of the Tetons, Sierras and Cascades and it was all washed away between late August and late September.

I'm still hoping for some degree of positive growth from the last solar minimum but it doesn't look too good. The deep minimums of 1901 and 1913 did coincide with some stunning winters world wide, including massive snowfalls in Australia and the freezing solid of the Niagara Falls for example, yet the summers between those two minimums were incredibly balmy and completely wasted the brutal winters between them.
Posted by: Johnoo

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 31/10/2009 09:40

All very interesting but the way I see it this is another avenue/path in response AGW thread being closed last week by the mods, all I see is this thread heading up the same path again.
I'm suprised the mods haven't caught on yet
Posted by: Anemoi

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 31/10/2009 09:51

Quote:
Originally posted by Simmosturf:
that,s not a news article? Please no arguments about the validity of the stories either pro or con, just want to read as much as possible on the issue...
What's the thread called?
In regard to this topic, this forum is a complete joke.
Some people apparently aren't allowed to comment or add their perspective (according to Simmo), while others are?
Oh Vlasta, if it was a jailing offense to be ill-informed, wrong, ignorant or stupid.
Everyone, here and elsewhere, would be doing some time, at some time.
Ridiculous, arbitrary rules and unsubstantiated accusations reflect the weakness of arguments. Why the need to censor/inhibit/attack some peoples contributions, if not because the actual facts of the matter reflect badly on the argument you're trying to make?

bye
Posted by: Johnoo

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 31/10/2009 09:56

The last post validates my previous post its heading the same way infact its already started basically this thread is a branch from the other thread nothing has changed
Posted by: BOM99

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 31/10/2009 10:43

It is interesting that although models are in agreement that it must get warmer from extra CO2, just a question of how much, they show no agreement on rainfall from extra CO2.

Temperature projections for Australia from AGW
Rainfall projections for Australia from AGW

I think that rainfall will get more intense and sporadic in nature everywhere but overall slightly less rain inland and slightly more on the coast. So it may seem like overall there is still the same rainfall for Australia but the usefulness of the rain will be reduced because it is not falling evenly and often and higher temps will make it dry out faster.
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 31/10/2009 11:34

Johnoo,

In the spirit of the opening comments people seemed to have avoided the culture wars that occurred in the other thread. That is a positive. And there are interesting articles out there, whatever we think, or hope for.

I'm fascinated by glaciers, their variability, their natural history, their beauty and their terror, to steal a 'riff' from a well known poem, so discussing them is something of a passion whatever they reveal as science studies them more closely.

There is something special about the high mountains. The transition through the woods to the tree line, and from the tree line to the grass line, and on into the high thin air, until you reach the realm of the glaciers is a fine experience, but in many places, not one our grand children will know.
Posted by: mobihci

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 31/10/2009 12:34

Quote:
Originally posted by Ben Sandilands:
mobihci,


The empirical facts about temperate zone glaciers is that they are overwhelmingly wasting away. They have vanished into grasses, stones and remnant ice pools in West Papua. They have vanished or shrunk from much of South America in terms of extent, and this is also true of North America, Europe and the Himalayas. There were a few standouts, including alas only a tiny part of the European Scandinavian ice fields and on Mt Shasta in California, where we see a direct correlation with increased rainfall from lower level stations. The 'were' bit is sad but true. Last northern summer held out the promise of significant enduring snow pack at higher elevations in parts of the Tetons, Sierras and Cascades and it was all washed away between late August and late September.

I'm still hoping for some degree of positive growth from the last solar minimum but it doesn't look too good. The deep minimums of 1901 and 1913 did coincide with some stunning winters world wide, including massive snowfalls in Australia and the freezing solid of the Niagara Falls for example, yet the summers between those two minimums were incredibly balmy and completely wasted the brutal winters between them.
you paint a picture there ben, well lets look at the real picture-

http://www.letka13.sk/~jurinko/swiss_glaciers_vs_AMO.gif

so they are different than they were?
Posted by: Mike Hauber

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 31/10/2009 13:19

What is telling from that chart is during an AMO cool phase, which is going to effect Europe stronger than most places on the planet, half of the glaciers are still retreating (and half advancing). While AMO is postive nearly all of them are.
Posted by: Mike Hauber

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 31/10/2009 13:32

Quote:
Originally posted by snowmi:
It is interesting that although models are in agreement that it must get warmer from extra CO2, just a question of how much, they show no agreement on rainfall from extra CO2.

Temperature projections for Australia from AGW
Rainfall projections for Australia from AGW

I think that rainfall will get more intense and sporadic in nature everywhere but overall slightly less rain inland and slightly more on the coast. So it may seem like overall there is still the same rainfall for Australia but the usefulness of the rain will be reduced because it is not falling evenly and often and higher temps will make it dry out faster.
Keep in mind that same rainfall and higher temperatures is going to mean drier conditions due to increased evaporatinos.

In areas such as Brisbane where there is a good chance of no significant reduction in rainfall the trend towards heavier rain less often will be good for large dams such as Brisbane's urban water supply which rely on relatively rare heavy rain events.
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 31/10/2009 13:59

Tabulation of the fluctuations in terminal slope locations doesn't really give the full picture.

The thickness and length of the lower extent of glaciers in the European Alps have both reduced by considerable amounts since the 60s even though in good years (low summer melt or high winter snowfall) they record an advance. The net effect is consistent retreat in all the major glaciers, which being major, descend deeper into the valleys or down slope.

In some locations the upper reaches of glaciers have thickened, obviously because of higher precipitation, which in the case of snowfall, rises as the temperature rises to no more than about +2C. There can be snow accumulation above +2C but generally it is wet and dense snow, and unless it falls more or less year around at a high rate, will not effectively feed glaciers. (The New Guinea glaciers were a good example of this. They were truly temperate but once torrential snowfall was replaced by torrential rain they rapidly vanished.)

I think the only way to convince you of the difference would to actually visit the Alestch or
Mer de Glace glaciers where the downwasting at the edges, the lateral moraines, and the retreat of the terminal ice face especially in the case of the former is very obvious. The thinning of the Chamonix facing glaciers of Mt Blanc is so severe that we see transient crevasses that expose the bedrock, so that you observe disconnected sections of the likes of the Bossons Glacier sliding down slope separate from each other rather than as a continuous tongue. The depth of the ice is no longer thicker than the depth at which crevasses self seal. This has effectively cut off the original ascent route. On the Italian side the Innominata Route, which was somewhat extreme at the best of times, is now very hazardous because of the collapse of a hanging section of glacier.

However once you get above 13,000 feet or so there are no obvious signs of glacial retreat on the north or Chamonix side of the massif. It is as densely covered by ice as ever, which is what you also find above 9000 feet in the Mt Cook area.
Posted by: mobihci

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 31/10/2009 15:05

Quote:
Originally posted by Mike Hauber:
What is telling from that chart is during an AMO cool phase, which is going to effect Europe stronger than most places on the planet, half of the glaciers are still retreating (and half advancing). While AMO is postive nearly all of them are.
how is that different from early 1900s?
Posted by: mobihci

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 31/10/2009 15:18

so ben, what is it you believe? do you believe like mike that the fact that the glaciers were retreating in the early 1900s mean nothing? or that we should just ignore that and concentrate on the here and now? oh no wait, we should go and visit it! what on earth does that have to do with the science?? just like gore with his polar bear remark. there is no difference. heart strings v reality. ohh look at all the ice gone, who cares if it all happened before or all that ice wouldnt change sea levels one iota, lets just push on with the human induced global warming caused it...
Posted by: Natasha

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 31/10/2009 16:04

Its complex. I notice both sides feels passionate about this matter.

My cousin in Taipei said of the matter - can we prove beyond doubt that we humans are not having any effect on the climate.
If not then changing some our excesses (not need to's) would not hurt if we are thinking about how it could be for our grandkids & great grand kids.

I am more inclined to just sit on the fence here and observe the infomration and how people react.

But I do wonder (& this is offtopic) but surely the resources consumed by the human technology which are big fossil fuel users; will chomp up the non renewable resources then there wont be non renewable resources for our grand kids great grand kids.
I think we are pretty sure this is inevitable.

We all know that when the temperature soars nowadays the grid is hit super hard by the aircon use.
So there is your biggest consumer of fossil fuel.
My grandparents & even my parents as young adults & all before them managed OK without having buildings & transport air conditioned.

I think we have got soft and are spinning out if it gets over mid high twenties.
That makes us more vunerable imo & we will be sorry we got into this mess.
Anyway end of off topic

I can understand people being sceptical about this AGW thing as the corporates & government have turned it into a money spinner and the money spinner will not do anything to improve the situation
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 31/10/2009 16:19

mobihci,

The purpose of the thread is to discuss interesting articles, not query people about what they believe in, or feed some unrelated agenda. I have not suggested that because the glaciers were retreating by 1900 means anything more than that they were melting faster than they they could renew their ice mass.

Gore, or polar bears, or even drop bears don't seem particularly relevant to the discussion.
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 31/10/2009 16:38

Nice try with the mild and easy going topic Simmo, but it just ain't gonna work like that in practice!!!
Posted by: Rime

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 31/10/2009 17:46

Uhmm..wouldn't it be better if there was just one large AGW thread going so that we can talk about anything that is related to AGW??

The last AGW thread should be reopened or continued by starting a sequel to it. For as long as the weatherzone forums remain open, GW is always going to creep on here one way or another. It would be far easier to moderate it if there was one general AGW thread so everyone can have their say about any topic relating to AGW (provided it is not personal attacks, etc). It is now going to get very messy if everyone starts opening a new thread based on one topic relating to AGW.

:cheers:
Posted by: teckert

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 31/10/2009 18:35

We will keep this thread going for the time being. The mods are discussing the whole GW debate & how to manage it on the forums, so will have some sort of resolution on that in the next few days. In the meantime, keep on topic, debate it, but NO personal attacks will be tolerated.
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 31/10/2009 19:42

Just couldn't resist posting this one!

Gore Gone Wild: Predicts 220 Foot Sea Level Rise in 10 years

Plus Gore's prediction of 100 million refugees per metre of sea level rise.
With a 67 metre rise that is 6.7 billion refugees, ie; the Earth's entire current population, looking for a patch of dry land within ten years time.
Now maybe this is a mistranslation from Arabic as Gore reputedly said this in Dubai.
That is being checked.

And this whacko as Clinton's vice president, was just a heart beat away from the presidency of the most powerful nation on Earth.
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 31/10/2009 20:31

Is calling people 'whacko' on a weather forum acceptable? Is a 67 metre sea level rise as accurate as the recent graphed reporting of a 60 feet snow fall by Watts Up in a fictitiously blizzard bound USA?

Can we have a bit of consistency here please.
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 31/10/2009 20:58

Thanks BD but I feel futility is a pre-requisite to anything AGW. I love the debate but still it goes on that if the majority start to rule I.E. ( Global warming is good, but global cooling appears to be happening with all the evidence I have seen) then those who are on the governments tax grab get grumpy and chastise others, then the poor old thread gets closed.
I have posted this before but seems relevant..
I Was On the Global Warming Gravy Train
http://mises.org/story/2571
Posted by: Keith

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 31/10/2009 21:50

Probably not much point my saying anything about the way people seem to flare up over this issue, but if it were in Parliament the time allotted would have expired years ago..I think it's technically called 'the debate was talked out'.

Some people forget that there's no such thing as parliamentary privilege in a weather forum.
Posted by: Lindsay Smail

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 31/10/2009 22:00

It is vital for the health of the science to keep this thread open. There will always be extreme views on any side. My opinion, for what it is worth, is that no personal attacks or name-calling ought to be tolerated on any FORUM CONTRIBUTOR. Politicians, however, are in a different category. A politician is setting himself/herself up for criticism because of the nature of their business and because they themselves can use parliamentary privilege when it suits them. To call Gore a wacko is not the same, in my opinion, as calling one of our Forum Contributors a wacko. The only stipulation I would make would be to avoid swearing, simulated swearing, and normally-accepted offensive language, and this has been the policy since the start.
But the forum must be kept open. At least one other forum has recently been "recessed" or closed and another is now run by those who have shown themselves to be less-than-open-minded.
It gives proper balance to the discussion if all sides can continue to be heard, and that the moderators are willing to allow all sides without bullying or denigration.
Posted by: teckert

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 31/10/2009 22:13

Exactly right. Its not that hard to have a proper constructive debate without personal attacks. Yes you might not agree with what's being said, but you need to debate it with facts & info without criticising the person.
Enough said on that. It's impossible to have a weather forum without this debate, but you all know what happens if guidelines are not followed.
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/11/2009 07:12

I disagree about politicians being exempt from insults and slanders, however deserved, because such tags inevitably re-open the discussion to culture wars. They also expose the forum owners 'the publishers' and the contributors 'the authors' to the risk of defamation actions.

Most journalists are updated on defamation litigation on a semi regular basis. I have a feeling that a state of blissful unawareness of the law of defamation exists here, and of its original purpose, which is to establish (however imperfectly in real life) a principle of fairness and accountability in public comment.

What a politician says, or what is contained in a document tabled in an Australian parliament, or in court as testimony, examination or as an exhibit in an open hearing and not including in a publication ban constitutes a 'privileged document' or 'privileged statement.'

However while we are protected by privilege in quoting such documents, the authors of such documents or comments have the same rights as all Australians to sue for defamation if the claims made about them are not capable of claiming parliamentary or legal privilege and they can establish that what was untruly said about them was capable of damaging them. (I am paraphrasing pages and hours of briefings here). This includes stuff that is made up. A relevant recent case involves a famous Australian tennis player and a women's magazine that is alleged to have invented a story about his secret lover.

So, everybody, be careful.

The laws of defamation do not preclude open and spirited discussion. They do however carry risks for publishers and contributors if the material is malicious, and manifestly untrue or fictional.

There are dozens of costly out of court settlements involving web sites in Australia each year.

I suggest that the forum not tolerate personal attacks on any person on this forum. That doesn't affect robust criticism and analysis of what a scientists says, but claiming without evidence that someone is in the pay of shadowy forces, or engaged in murder or embezzlement had better be based on indisputable facts or 'privileged' information.
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/11/2009 07:31

British Launch Ad Campaign to Raise Fading Climate Concerns

"People see climate change as something far off. But they are prepared to act if they understand that it will affect their children," she told E&E. Flagging interest in climate change also poses a problem for the Obama administration in the United States. With little more than a month before the United States is expected to lead in international climate talks in Copenhagen, a recent poll by the Pew Research Center for the People & the Press shows only 35 percent of Americans see global warming as a serious problem, a drop of 9 percentage points since last year.

The British government's campaign, aimed at shoring up waning support, will also be in print, and will run until mid-November. It notes that some 40 percent of the climate-changing carbon dioxide emitted by Britons comes from housing and personal transport. It immediately drew more than 200 complaints to the advertising standards authority, the national watchdog for misleading advertising. The DECC spokeswoman said the bulk of the complaints were over the science cited in the ad.
http://www.nytimes.com/cwire/2009/10/30/...ng-c-28845.html
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/11/2009 07:40

It is encouraging to see that the UK ad campaign is drawing complaints. The science of anthropogenic global warming should be nourished by challenge as well as inquiry, not anointed as set in stone, at which point, it ceases to be scientific.

Who knows, maybe the focus will sharply return to the large scale liberation of fossilised carbon which is the fundamental concern.
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/11/2009 08:03

"According to the 2007 IPCC AR4 Methane has a “global warming potential” of 25 times that of CO2 over 100 years. Here’s a CH4 budget pie chart. Note that there are several sources where we can manage methane without affecting energy creation. Starting on Methane, rather than CO2, is an idea that I could get behind because it can be recycled and used for many things"
(quote from...
Methane
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/11/2009 09:05

That's a pretty good point I think. The issue that the scare merchants avoid (not you BD) is the short life of methane. While that breakdown, primarily from sunlight, does yield carbon compounds, the very high contribution of comparatively smaller amounts of methane to the 'greenhouse effect' is thus transitory.

If I was a farmer I'd be emphasising the fossil carbon issue as the core issue, not farting livestock.

Methane can greatly enhance clean combustion cycles too, or so the position papers have claimed for some time. One project that the CSIRO was involved in concerned the sequestration of carbon dioxide from coal burning back to the lower depths of coal seams in Poland where copious quantities of methane were trapped at a depth too great for the coal to be mined manually or by robots.

The carbon dioxide pumped down to those levels was forcing the methane out of the geological prison in which it was held allowing it to be burned on the surface and in theory help pay for the added cost of the sequestration and produce an overall system wide output of energy that was releasing significantly less carbon dioxide than before.

OK, that was the theory. Full commercial practicability is some time off, but the principle is interesting and encouraging.

I notice there were reports last week saying clean coal was 20 years away in the future. Great news. Most of the coal burning power plants in Australia will be due for renewal, AGW or not, for practical reasons in the 2025-2045 period, and bringing proven clean burn technology into play in their replacements would seem to me to be comparatively painless if not more profitable than is the case for coal fired power generation today.

There are technological solutions out there. The universally attractive ones are those that make economic sense irrespective of the validity or otherwise of AGW.
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/11/2009 11:58

An article from Pielke Snr\'s blog, Climate Science with links to the "Science" papers on the gross energy inefficiency of that great AGW mitigation icon, Bio-fuels.

And another article on the pitfalls of placing any reliance on that other beloved technology of the warmista activists, the fossil fuel energy replacement technology, wind power, from "Master Resource", "Industrial Wind Technology":

And something that is eminently sensible from an energy saving and energy cost benefit , roof tiles that change colour from black to white according to the temperature.
From ; Physorg.com, "Color-changing roof tiles absorb heat in winter, reflect it in summer"
Posted by: Surly Bond

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/11/2009 12:18

Quote:
Originally posted by ROM:


And something that is eminently sensible from an energy saving and energy cost benefit , roof tiles that change colour from black to white according to the temperature.
You won't sell them in this decade, ROM. laugh
Charcoal grey is the ONLY roof colour in fashion.
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/11/2009 13:04

ROM,

If you want to make the extreme warmistas choke with rage, and I gather that you would, point them at what the aerospace sector is doing about algal fuels.

Algal is what comes after 'bio'. In 2006 the scientific consensus at a Sydney Green Skies conference was that algal grown octanes could get to the testing phase by 2020 as a blend. They were in fact tested in a twin engined jet in early 2009, which included throttling down and then re-opening the engine running on the partially algal sourced blend at altitude.

Algal is important in that it is not climate or sunlight dependant. It can be grown in tanks. It doesn't displace agriculture or food production.

And not only does it not release fossil carbon, but in some of the pathways being investigated, it consumes it. Synergies between algal farms and the excess carbon dioxide of power plants are under study, some of it significantly backed by the fossil fuel interests too.

It is true that there are prodigious hurdles to be overcome. That's something that our species seems to be good at. It is true that ultimate success isn't assured, but all the signs are very good at this stage. The replacement of fossil refined fuels with algal liquid fuels of similar characteristics for all surface and air transport would have profound consequences for the integrity of fuel supply and head off the issue of peak oil for those that believe in such.

It would also head off the political opportunism that blights the entire issue of AGW. None of us here seem to be in favour of political or economic engineering to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. I am certain the public agree too.

Time scale? It was 2050 last year. The mood of the sector is swinging around more toward 2025 for the proving up of the fuels and processes that would produce energy equivalence by volume with aviation grade kerosene, requiring no modification of existing engine and airframe designs, and the rapidly growing replacement of fossil sourced kerosene from 2030.

Meanwhile, I'm hoping for deep snowdrifts in Copenhagen in December. While I agree with the science concerning AGW I don't think I'm alone in despising its exploitation by those promoting potentially disastrous social and economic interventions.
Posted by: adon

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/11/2009 13:42

Well I reckon I give this thread another 7-8 pages before it's closed. Already some comments starting to creep in there and won't be long... Pity because this thread could have been OK for reading if there were no comments posted on people's thoughts. If people could post a link and an explanation of the thread and no comments this could go for a while.

Pity really. This debate obviously needs to happen but because this is a censored forum, it will never be able to carry on freely. People are too emotionally connected to this for some reason. Don't know whether this is because of pride, real fear(I doubt), or "digital bravery" that people get on the soap box and let loose on others. I would think that if this debate was held face to face, the language and posturing would be subdued somewhat.

Unfortunalty I see a lot of people on either side being sucked into a propaganda war over who intrests matter more. ATM pro AGW camp is winning but the anti is fighting back. There are good ideas on boths sides and I dare say that many of these ideas would be put into aciton if they were taken away from the climate debate and others would standout as not viable.

I was listening to the radio the other day while a man was talking about energy production in scandanavia, what he said would make perfect sence in most times without having to justify it by putting it in the AGW corner. Basically in the country where this is in place(sorry I can't remember) it is illegal to dump rubbish into landfill. It must be sorted and incinerated to produce power or recycled. He was picturing all the major towns, cities having these waste burning power plants and even smaller towns that can use farming residues and garden clippings to power our grid.

To me, this makes sence as it kills two birds with the one stone, reducing/stopping land fill and lowering dependance on fuels to power our grid. It should not have to be done in the name of climate change and it's fickle claims. It should be done for pure efficiency. If our changes to power and waste managment were centred about waste minimisation and getting the most our of resouces we use, we would get a lot more stuff in that makes sence. Having a tax(ETS is a hidden tax) to justify such things as wind power and solar makes it clear that more development to make them cheaper. I am not against these things but they have to compete to be viable.

Also building efficient houses should be encouraged buy lower fees and less paperwork. These things can done without having put them into the AGW corner and the political fight that comes with it. Nobody would argue that it would be better to dump rubbish into a hole and roll it till it's flat. Nobody would say it is a bad thing to build an energy effient house. or to drive an efficient car.

However people must also take a good hard look at their lives and see if they actually NEED all the have. A family in innercity Melbourne has no NEED for a diesel 4x4 period. Even if they like to go out camping every once in a while. There is opportunity to hire an offroader for the times when you NEED them otherwise use a smaller efficent car. Same goes for people who only use their car to commute to work. Why have a powerful car capable of travelling all the way to Mildura on a tank. Why not use an electric car that could quite easily get you there and back on a charge? These cars should be cheap to register and cheaper to buy. Just because you may do a long trip every so often, doens't mean you have to have it. People in larger places can hire things so why not? The money you would save on fuel and running costs would more than pay for the odd hire of a vehical to get you away from the big smoke.

I know this os also off topic but it seems that many of the changes coule be common sence if they were implemented on thier own instead of bunched up with some very dodgy stuff that could do some real damage to our economy and way of life.
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/11/2009 14:06

I wrote up quite extensively on Algal oil and the Algal oil technologies at least a year or more ago in the a former and discontinued AGW thread.
[ Discontinued for the same reasons the current AGW thread is in suspension! ]

Algal oil is the real possibility in the energy stakes as it allows the continued use far into the future of the heritage and current technology piston engines.
Our major planetary mobile power sources consists of piston engine technologies of all types so as we have seen on a couple of occasions in the last couple of decades, any disruption to the supply of fuels that are specific to the piston engine leads to a great disruption of our transport systems and consequently to our society and our industry.

Something similar to Algal oil is an essential as historically it will take possibly at least a century before piston technology as a type of mobile power generation source will be phased out even if we began to do so as of now.

And there is absolutely no sign that anybody is as yet trying to enforce the abolition of piston engines, although with the AGW movement, anything is on the cards!

And for anybody wishing to follow up on the history of Algal Oil or Algal Biodiesel research [ "Algal Biodiesel" sounds far more impressive than just plain "oil"! ] here is a very extensive and detailed read entitled;
A Look Back at the U.S. Department of Energy’s Aquatic Species Program: Biodiesel from Algae

It was from the US Dept of Energy "Algal Oil" publications that I got most of my info from some three or four years ago.
Posted by: adon

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/11/2009 14:24

Yeah I remember looking into it years ago. Great idea and doesn't tie up food producing land to produce fuel. Much higher yield per square meter and contant produciton due to a very short lifespan of the algae. Only things that were slowing it down was figuring out how to efficiantly harvest/process it.

Found a good clip on it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ih-DLurcZA
Posted by: Mike Hauber

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/11/2009 14:48

Accelerating ice loss from Antarctica and Greenland

Greenland:


Antarctica:
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/11/2009 15:01

Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/11/2009 15:07

"The two authors of the study have an explanation of the context of their findings at RC (guest post): http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/arc...m-into-context/

Grumbine also has an informative post, and rightly highlights that
“there is more than one way for the Antarctic to lose mass.” (http://moregrumbinescience.blogspot.com/2009/10/antarctic-snow-and-ice.html) Note that Tedesco (one of the study’s authors) responded as follows (presumably via email) on Grumbine’s blog (2nd comment):

“Let me also catch the opportunity to mention that the results of our work have been extremely simplified and not all results have been reported on many blogs. In the paper we do report the lowest melt in the 30-year satellite record this past austral summer but we also examine the causality of the low melt and find that it is related to the belt of westerly winds that encircles Antarctica. These winds are expected to weaken as the ozone hole is projected to recover significantly during the next 25 years and, as a consequence, we expect that temperature increases over Antarctica will become stronger and more widespread.

We also note that our results do not contradict recently published results on surface temperature trends over Antarctica: the time period used for those studies extends back to the 1950’s, well beyond 1980, and the largest temperature increases are found during winter and spring rather than summer, and are generally limited to West Antarctica and the Antarctic Peninsula.”
(Source Bart Verheggen post on WUWT)
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/11/2009 15:29

In actual fact Mike I would be glad to see the Antarctic temps start to rise as they are a little already, as it is a clear sign of global cooling setting in as per Svensmark Cosmic ray theory, as the rest of the world cools due to higher albedo of low clouds, the Antactic warms as the low cloud albedo is less than that of the huge white ice and snow areas of the Antarctic. So bring on the Antarctic warming please, so we can cool down a bit more!
Posted by: Flying Binghi (2)

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/11/2009 15:30

To balance those 'news' reports, i guess a 'its all happened before' article is required -

"Discussions on the Viking settlements on Greenland are seen from time to time on WUWT, and its is often in the context of the Medieval Warm Period. While this article from the University of Alberta is a few years old, I thought I’d provide it for our readers interest..." http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/10/26/on-the-vikings-and-greenland/
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 02/11/2009 07:19

Why an Emissions Trading
Scheme (ETS) is not necessary

http://www.climatesceptics.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/PPP-printing-version.pdf
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 02/11/2009 07:54

As tropical storms ebb, climate debate kicks in
Slow hurricane season for U.S. was the same across the globe, scientists say

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/6697013.html
Posted by: Mike Hauber

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 02/11/2009 08:33

Another month of rainfall statistics:



Probably slightly drier than average, but not bad for an el nino.
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 02/11/2009 09:22

Sorry Mike, but I fail to see what that has to do with the thread topic? confused
Posted by: Mike Hauber

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 02/11/2009 09:46

AGW predicts a reduction in rainfall for the southern parts of Australia.

Monitoring rainfall is relevant to the accuracy of these predictions.

Its also relevant to predictions from some such as yourself that its all just natural cycles and that we should be seeing wet weather sometime soon as these cycles change.
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 02/11/2009 10:22

As I said Mike, I fail to see what your post has to do with the thread topic. It is not a news article.......and I hope we are not getting down to one month for AGW proof eek , maybe we could take each week and day as proof of warming or cooling or dry or wet! :wave: This does not match at all with your past statements on the shortness of periods!
Posted by: Mike Hauber

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 02/11/2009 10:38

And here is last 30 days global temperature patterns:



And the circulation patterns:



A persisent high pressure circulation in SE Pacific has pushed cooler air from Antarctica towards South America. Persistent southerlies have pushed cooler air from the Arctic into USA, and persisetn low pressure in NE Atlantic has pushed warm air into the Arctic
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 02/11/2009 10:44

Looks like normality, Mike, with odd warm and cool bits everywhere, again proves nothing really. If you want to post world monthly stats I suggest you start another thread then we can all discuss the worlds last month weather, which may prove of some interest, but this thread does not seem the place for these posts imo...don't know what others think? Just seems to clutter up this news post thread with info that is best put eleswhere in its own thread again imo.
Posted by: Long Road Home

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 02/11/2009 10:47

That map would belong in a global obs thread or something. I dont see what it has to do with AGW though confused
Posted by: Flying Binghi (2)

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 02/11/2009 12:58

LOL, while Mike has the thread diverted with rainfall records... seems some have taken a two way bet on the future Oz rainfall...pg93, Garnaut Climate Change Review, covering precipitation models for Oz...apparently some models say a rain reduction, some models say a rain increase... smile


.
Posted by: Flying Binghi (2)

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 02/11/2009 13:06

While i'm on the IPCC based Garnaut report. An interesting news report via WUWT -

"...the warming estimates produced by the IPCC’s twenty-something climate models are little more than educated guesses. It verges on scientific malpractice that politicians and the media continue to portray the models as accurate in this regard, without any objections from the scientists who should know better."

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/11/01/spencer-on-ipcc-admission-on-climate-feedbacks/#more-12365
Posted by: Long Road Home

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 02/11/2009 13:59

Just for interest sake, i read a research summary from the CSIRO saying that only a 1-2c increase in the sydney basin in the next 50 years would significantly increase the frequency and intensity of hailstorms..
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 02/11/2009 16:06

I think Mike's posting corrects the inaccurate early snow claims on Watts Up, especially the mythic 60 foot snow fall on October 13 and accompanying ice hockey stick (snow depth graph) posted on that site.

The veracity of news items ought to be discussed, as for example the relevant criticisms that media articles often incorrectly endorse the accuracy of models when in fact they are only educated guesses as pointed out in FB (2)'s most recent reference back to the brilliant but not infallible Watts Up site.
Posted by: Mike Hauber

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 02/11/2009 16:45

The models have been as accurate as the scientists state they should be. They correctly predicted warming 30 years ago. The warming has been less than predicted. However every scienctific discussion on climate sensitivity to CO2 nominates an error range of about +/- 50% for the warming rate, and the rate of warming experience has been higher than the lower range of such an error estimate.

Has the media specifically endorsed the accuracy of models? Or is it more of a case where they have avoided the issue of uncertainty?

A headline of 'scientists warn we may be experience temperatures up to 10 degrrees higher' is certainly more exciting and punchier than 'Scientists warn we will experience temperatures between 1 and 10 degrees higher depending on climate sensitivity and depending on whether you are in a fast heating spot or not'.

The first headline is factually correct, but leaves out the boring bits to be misleading to those who don't think too hard about what is being said.
Posted by: Mike Hauber

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 02/11/2009 17:03

Quote:
Originally posted by Ben Sandilands:
especially the mythic 60 foot snow fall on October 13 and accompanying ice hockey stick (snow depth graph) posted on that site.
Did you actually find any evidence that this snowfall was mythic? Hunting down the article, the chart is labelled as 'maximum snow depth'. so presumably 60 foot accumulated at the bottom of a cliff would qualify.

The Watts article fails to point out that in a warming world the moisture content of the atmosphere will increase. This means that where snow falls it will probably fall deeper. I would expect that with a warming world we should be seeing heavier snow falls in a smaller area.

Here is a chart showing the decling trend in snow cover for the northern hemisphere:

Posted by: mobihci

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 02/11/2009 18:05

ooo, look, its another inverted AMO picture again, and starting in the mid 60s no less!

ben,
that 60 foot snow thing on wuwt was from here-

http://www.nohrsc.noaa.gov/nsa/index.html?region=National&year=2009&month=10&day=13&units=e

i suggest if you or anyone has a question about how the data is applied, then ask them. obviously wuwt was just using this site graphing for the change in this maximum over the past decade or so. it means little to me, but probably means a lot to the weather/snow buffs in america.
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 02/11/2009 19:02

http://rogerpielkejr.blogspot.com/2009/11/australian-government-allegedly.html
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 02/11/2009 19:33

Mike,

It describes the site as being in open forest if you click through to the location. This is nonsensical. 60 feet is one third the way to initiating glacial movement in standing snow.

BD,

Roger does a great job in that post. While it isn't about the science of greenhouse gas emissions, it is about the freedom for contrary voices to be heard, which seems to me even more important when the language is studious and measured.

There is an ABC version of the story here:

ABC on CSIRO censorship claims

Note, this is a mainstream media story, indicating that the Australian media doesn't ignore those who sing out of tune. It also appears to be a very fair story, although it doesn't stray from its criticism of carbon trading into the topic at hand, which is whether the science is valid and so forth.
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 02/11/2009 19:34

Jo Nova has been posting some angry articles on the money trail that is associated with Rudd's proposed forcible mandating of an ETS.
And the analysis is that like Enron who was the biggest lobbyist for carbon credits at Kyoto, the big australian and international banks are lining up to get their ugly snouts deep into the CO2 mitigation financial trough which will be forcibly and amply filled with the compulsory government mandated largesse from the unfortunate public's pockets.

As the saying goes, if you want the truth follow the money trail!
So from Jo Nova's blog;
"Banks want us to trade carbon" &
"Hopes for carbon hub in jeopardy"
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 02/11/2009 21:59

World leaders accused of myopia over climate change deal

Senior officials and negotiators increasingly gloomy about the prospects for a global warming deal next month


http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/nov/01/climate-change-world-leaders-accused
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 02/11/2009 22:04

Follow the science on climate change

As next month’s Copenhagen conference approaches, politicians should not be distracted by the apparently growing volume of sceptical voices challenging the need for global action against climate change. Some of the sceptics may have scientific backgrounds but they are not in the mainstream of contemporary climate research. The real experts – hundreds of scientists worldwide who are examining the link between climate and carbon dioxide emissions – have no doubt that man-made global warming is a real crisis that must be addressed urgently.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ec04319c-c703-11de-bb6f-00144feab49a.html?nclick_check=1
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 02/11/2009 22:22

From Dr. Roy Spencer who is head of the Uni of Alabama's Advanced Microwave Scanning Radiometer [ UAH AMSR-E] which is regarded as arguably the most reliable and accurate source of global temperatures but which as yet only has a data base of global temps a decade or so long.
One of the great arguments in the AGW debate is the fact that the IPCC modelers have assumed that all the climate feedbacks are positive, ie; they simply continue to reinforce events in an ever increasing and ever more unstable system, something that in the 4 plus billion years of the Earth's geological history has never occurred before.
If it had then neither we nor any life on what would be left of the the planet would still be around.
Some negative feedbacks are inherently necessary to ensure stability in any system but the existence of negative feedbacks are just simply ignored by the IPCC's modellers.

A quote from the IPCC's report and Dr Spencer\'s comments on this quote and a quick analysis of the IPCC's modeller's attitudes to feedbacks.

Quote;
“A number of diagnostic tests have been proposed…but few of them have been applied to a majority of the models currently in use. Moreover, it is not yet clear which tests are critical for constraining future projections (of warming). Consequently, a set of model metrics that might be used to narrow the range of plausible climate change feedbacks and climate sensitivity has yet to be developed.”
Posted by: Mike Hauber

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 02/11/2009 23:18

The models don't assume feedbacks are positive. Models calculate the physical processes involved in climate (with approximations of course), and the feedbacks are a result of the model and not an assumption fed into the moel.

Anyone who claims otherwise knows nothing about how climate models work, or is just plain dishonest.
Posted by: Flying Binghi (2)

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 03/11/2009 03:42

"...Current climate models appear insufficiently reliable to properly account for natural and anthropogenic contributions to past climate change, much less project future climate..."

"... You can do physics without climatology, but you can’t do climatology without physics..."

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/11/02/16...imate-position/
Posted by: Mike Hauber

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 03/11/2009 07:52

Quote:
Originally posted by Flying Binghi (2):
"...Current climate models appear insufficiently reliable to properly account for natural and anthropogenic contributions to past climate change, much less project future climate..."

"... You can do physics without climatology, but you can’t do climatology without physics..."

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/11/02/16...imate-position/
A statement signed by 160 physicists out of a body that has 47,000 members. How much weight should should we be putting on the opinion of a small minority group within a science discipline other than climatology?

Because obviously you can do physics without [having to understand anything about] climatology.
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 03/11/2009 10:38

And a correction has been made to Gore's forecast sea level rises made in a speech in Dubai.
Gore was reported as forecasting a sea level rise of 67 metres if the North Pole was to melt.
Gore apparently forecast a sea level rise of 6.7 metres so the mistake is apparently due to a mistranslation of his speech.

More here from "The American Thinker" blog.
Posted by: Flying Binghi (2)

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 03/11/2009 13:15

Quote:
A statement signed by 160 physicists out of a body that has 47,000 members. How much weight should should we be putting on the opinion of a small minority group within a science discipline other than climatology?

Because obviously you can do physics without [having to understand anything about] climatology.
"...You have recently received a letter from the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS), purporting to convey a “consensus” of the scientific community that immediate and drastic action is needed to avert a climatic catastrophe..."

"...We know of no evidence that any of the “leaders” of the scientific community who signed the letter to you ever asked their memberships for their opinions, before claiming to represent them on this important matter..."

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/11/02/16...imate-position/


"A CSIRO economist whose research criticising emissions trading schemes was banned from publication said last night he had been subjected to harassment by the senior agency management..."

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,26297102-2702,00.html


"I HEAR on the scientific grapevine that CSIRO’s biggest problem when providing formal advice to the federal Government on the matter of climate change is to say nothing that can be interpreted as giving aid and comfort to the army of irresponsible sceptics out there who are doubtful about the dreadful consequences of global warming..."

http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/l...oisoned_by_fear

............. smile
Posted by: Mike Hauber

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 03/11/2009 16:57

Anyone who wants to dig further into the hockey stick controversy may want to check out the delayed oscillator blog, which is quite technical and evidently written by an expert in the field (according to Deep Climate)
Posted by: Flying Binghi (2)

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 03/11/2009 18:58

"Weather observatories in Australia, dating back 100 years or more, show cities getting hotter as they get bigger; but country towns have generally not been warming up. Some have actually been cooling down..."

http://www.newsweekly.com.au/articles/2009oct31_c.html
Posted by: Lindsay Smail

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 03/11/2009 21:46

Agreed FlyingB2. I can't understand why the UHI debate continues since the effect has been so well understood for years. You only have to read Harvey Stern's report on Melbourne's temps, or the one (author forgotten) on Victorian towns over 10,000 population, or even look at some of the Stevenson Screens used in USA, Europe, Russia, or their siting anomalies, and so on, to see that VERY MANY currently used and reporting weather stations are totally unreliable. And for anyone to claim the readings from those stations are "standardised", "moderated" or sanitised is disingenuous. The media will still report "Melbourne's highest temperature this century or whatever" without telling their audience that the raw data has been subject to UHI influences, namely that it was recorded in the middle of the CBD surrounded by heat-producing and retaining infrastructure.
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 03/11/2009 22:14

Lindsay, maybe this is a very good example of what you are saying, complete with graphs and etc.

Melbourne\'s Historic Weather Station
by Anthony Watts on October 23rd, 2007
Posted by: Arnost

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 04/11/2009 01:23

Not really on topic - but interesting nevertheless.

Mr. Gore is poised to become the world’s first "carbon billionaire"? (from New York Times )

Whilst I give credit to Al for putting his money where his mouth is, I just can't get that flat feeling that ultimately it's nothing but " rent seeking " at it's highest art form...

For example the type of companies that will make Al rich are ones producing "smart meters" (as per NYT article linked above). How? Because the government will throw money at them... Rent-seeking at it\'s best!

And if it's legislated that these HAVE to replace the current (and perfectly functional normal - dumb?) meters, then this will further impose a useless economic cost... And the benefits of these:

Quote:
The system provides a wide range of advanced features, including the ability to remotely turn power on or off to a customer, read usage information from a meter, detect a service outage, detect the unauthorized use of electricity, change the maximum amount of electricity that a customer can demand at any time; and remotely change the meter's billing plan from credit to prepay as well as from flat-rate to multi-tariff.
from wiki

I just can't wait till the power company's software has control of these "advanced features" - I can imagine that I'll be in the middle of a complex post at 1 am when the algore-rithm decides that I can't be up that late (based on statistics which show that people go to bed well before this time) and turns the power off... mad making me lose an hour's worth of work. mad mad LOL

I'll then have to phone-up a call centre in India and plead to get the power on - only to be advised that the computer program is always right and I must be dreaming this as statistically I'm asleep... laugh and in anycase, the cost of arguing this burning up satellite time means that I have exceeded my carbon allocation and so have to be without power until the end of the month - Want to buy more carbon credits - No? Good bye! :doh:
Posted by: Mike Hauber

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 04/11/2009 08:44

Quote:
Originally posted by Lindsay Smail:
Agreed FlyingB2. I can't understand why the UHI debate continues since the effect has been so well understood for years.
Of course the UHI has been understood as a issue for years, which is why ground temperature measurements are corrected for UHI before a global average is calculated.

And the satellite measurements which should not be affected by UHI agree quite closely with the ground measurements (after correction), so the corrections are obviously working.
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 04/11/2009 09:19

Which Phil Jones [ of HADCRU ] who wrote the one letter to Nature in about 1990 that the IPCC has based their calculations for UHI corrections on, has recently admitted in another article that, based on his very recent Chinese data from rapidly expanding cities, his original calculated corrections for the UHI effects were far too low.
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 05/11/2009 14:31

A paper from Dr. Arnd Bernaerts, "Past Arctic Warming Also Created by Currents" on Jeff Id's blog, "the Air Vent" and also repeated on WUWT.

Dr. Bernaerts outlines how the current flows from the North Atlantic are affecting the amount of ice in the Arctic sea.
Posted by: TranslucidusW

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 05/11/2009 16:35

It had to happen . . . and according to this forum's rules there is to be no religious debate???

Perhaps an exception can be made if we behave

It’s official – climate change beliefs now have religious equality status
4 11 2009

While I’ve been avoiding posting on this topic for quite some time, when a UK court makes a ruling like this, and the UK Telegraph makes a headline like the one below, it becomes hard to ignore. We live in interesting times.


Saint_Gore

From the UK Telegraph:

Climate change belief given same legal status as religion

An executive has won the right to sue his employer on the basis that he was unfairly dismissed for his green views after a judge ruled that environmentalism had the same weight in law as religious and philosophical beliefs.

excerpts:



In a landmark ruling, Mr Justice Michael Burton said that “a belief in man-made climate change … is capable, if genuinely held, of being a philosophical belief for the purpose of the 2003 Religion and Belief Regulations”.

The ruling could open the door for employees to sue their companies for failing to account for their green lifestyles, such as providing recycling facilities or offering low-carbon travel.



John Bowers QC, representing Grainger, had argued that adherence to climate change theory was “a scientific view rather than a philosophical one”, because “philosophy deals with matters that are not capable of scientific proof.”

That argument has now been dismissed by Mr Justice Burton, who last year ruled that the environmental documentary An Inconvenient Truth by Al Gore was political and partisan.

The decision allows the tribunal to go ahead, but more importantly sets a precedent for how environmental beliefs are regarded in English law.

from here
Posted by: Flying Binghi (2)

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 05/11/2009 17:28

LOL, yes, it had to happen - the Algorian god.

Back to when Gore was a god in training...

(sundry extracts) "...In the history of the global-warming movement, no scientist is more revered than Roger Revelle of Scripps Institution of Oceanography, Harvard University and University of California San Diego. He was the co-author of the seminal 1957 paper that demonstrated that fossil fuels had increased carbon-dioxide levels in the air...

...Roger Revelle's most consequential act, however, may have come in his role as a teacher, during the 1960s at Harvard. Dr. Revelle inspired a young student named Al Gore...

...Gore thought of Dr. Revelle as his mentor and referred to him frequently,...

...Gore's warmth for Dr. Revelle cooled, however, when it became clear that he had misunderstood his former professor...

...Dr. Revelle was quietly warning against taking any drastic action...

...In a July 14, 1988, letter to Congressman Jim Bates, he (Revelle)wrote that: "Most scientists familiar with the subject are not yet willing to bet that the climate this year is the result of 'greenhouse warming.' As you very well know, climate is highly variable from year to year, and the causes of these variations are not at all well understood...

...with Al Gore running for vice-president in the 1992 presidential election, the inconsistency between Gore's pronouncements -- he claimed that the "science was settled" then, too -- and those of his mentor became national news. Gore responded with a withering attack, leading to claims that Dr. Revelle had become senile...

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/story.html?id=58e0c50c-1631-46ca-8719-778c0973526e





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Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 05/11/2009 18:21

While agreeing with Flying Binghi (2) about the inanities in the reports he refers to, it disappoints me that in so many issues, not just this, public debate tends to vanish into side show alley, rather than look at the core questions.

I can't point to polling on this, but within my own contacts those who work diligently on the science tend to choke on the overlay of opportunism and misinformation that is generated about it from various quarters. Gore means nothing to these people.
Posted by: Keith

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 05/11/2009 18:42

Well, if this fits the discussion, Al Gore on a TV interview now wants us all to stop eating red meat..the same view as (I can't remember his name) some Indian guy who I think is/was the head of a major climate institution/body/think tank or whatever (his name started with R).

The implication of course is that, to parody a phrase, 'flatulence will get you nowhere'.
Posted by: Flying Binghi (2)

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 05/11/2009 21:24

Quote:
...Al Gore on a TV interview now wants us all to stop eating red meat..


LOL, ah wonder what 'grazier' Ben Sandilands thinks of that idea... wink
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 05/11/2009 21:36

I wonder if this is the article???

Why Is Al Gore Still Eating Meat?
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,571727,00.html
Posted by: Vlasta

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 05/11/2009 21:41

Not sure whether there was sarcasm but did you mean this guy ?
http://rkpachauri.org/
When Iam down and need some lift and laugh I listen to him or Al Gore or similar clauns.
At least if they come up with something new . All same story every time 6deg warming 7 meters or so sea level raise and so on . God help the world !!
Forgot to add that the guy reminds me film Planet of apes
Posted by: Keith

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 05/11/2009 21:46

Vlasta that would have been the fellow I was thinking of. I had thought his last name began with 'R' but it was his first. I haven't checked further..I've had a long day and simply can't be bothered with this type of buffoonery right now.

I can only say that it gives a new meaning to the phrase 'Holy Cow'.
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 05/11/2009 23:52

Wind turbines and solar panels aka Photo Voltaics [ PV's ] are supposed to be the great new sources of renewable energy under the Rudd government.

Here is an extract from the blog, Master Resource, on the German experience and in particular, the costs to the German economy of subsidising the wind turbine and P V / solar panel renewable power generation technologies and the miserable amount of power generation that actually results from these grossly over hyped "renewable" power generatation technologies.

Quote:
First, renewable power is a net drain on Germany’s economy:

The German feeder tariff subsidizes solar photovoltaics (PVs) at a rate of 59¢ per kWh. That is “more than eight times higher than the wholesale electricity price at the power exchange and more than four times the feed-in tariff paid for electricity produced by on-shore wind turbines.”
“Even on-shore wind, widely regarded as a mature technology, requires feed-in tariffs that exceed the per-kWh cost of conventional electricity by up to 300% to remain competitive.”
Germany has the second-largest installed wind capacity in the world, “behind the United States,” and the largest installed PV capacity in the world. However, installed capacity is not the same as production or contribution, and “by 2008 the estimated share of wind power in Germany’s electricity production was 6.3% . . . The amount produced by solar photovoltaics was a negligible 0.6% despite being the most subsidized renewable energy, with a net cost of about 8.4 Bn € (US 12.4 Bn) for 2008.”
“The total net cost of subsidizing electricity production by PV modules is estimated to reach 53.3 Bn € (US $73.2 Bn) for those modules installed between 2000 and 2010. . . .wind power subsidies may total 20.5 Bn € (US $28.1 Bn) for wind converters installed between 2000 and 2020.”
The key facts bear repeating. Germany is on course to subsidize solar power to the tune of $73.2 billion from 200o through 2010, yet solar provides a paltry 0.6% of the country’s electricity.

Even as a carbon-reduction strategy, wind and solar power are uneconomic, RWI reports:

“Given the net cost of 41.82 Cents/kWh for PV modules installed in 2008, and assuming that PV displaces conventional electricity generated from a mixture of gas and hard coal, abatement costs are as high as 716 € (US $1,050) per tonne [of carbon dioxide].”
“Using the same assumptions and a net cost for wind of 3.10 Cents/kWh, the abatement cost is approximately 54 € (US $80) [per tonne CO2]. While cheaper than PV, this cost is still nearly double the ceiling of the cost of a per-ton permit under Europe’s cap-and-trade scheme.”
Carbon permits are trading at 13.4 € per ton. “Hence, the cost from emission reductions as determined by the market is about 53 times cheaper than employing PV and 4 times cheaper than using wind power.”
Germany’s “increased use of renewable energy technologies generally attains no additional emission reductions beyond those achieved by ETS [European Trading System] alone. In fact, since establishment of the ETS in 2005, the EEG’s net climate effect has been equal to zero.”
Again, the key facts merit repeating. The per-ton cost of reducing emissions via wind warms is four times the going rate of carbon credits. PVs reduce emissions at a cost as high as $1,050 per ton – 53 times more expensive than carbon permits traded at current prices.
The net effect on emissions is zero.


We have heard a good deal about the American experience with wind and solar technologies but it is also very good to get an idea on just what the Europeans have experienced and in particular just how much these so called renewable power generation technologies have actually cost their tax payers and just what the tax payers have got in return.
Spain, on a national basis, has the highest percentage of renewable power generation in Europe.
Spain also has the highest unemployment rate in Europe of 18% and this despite the constant spin by politicians and the green groups everywhere that installing renewable energy increases employment.
The American, German, Danish and etc experiences all point to greater unemployment due to higher taxes to subsidise the renewable energy sectors and the massive increases in energy costs that force many industries out of business.
Posted by: Arnoldnut

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 06/11/2009 06:17

I don't feel guilty. I grabbed one of Rudds nearly free systems ....saw it as part of my missing super.
2.5 kWatt system pays me back at 60c a kWatt/Hr with the new meter ....but I pay 19c and 16c /kW in.
I know the returns are silly but not why I grabbed it. The system Kev and I installed is battery capable ....and if the proverbial hits the fan and the grid goes down ....I can switch the PVs from grid to battery and that ain't bad.
Thanks again Kev smile
I think only one other forum member took up the offer ...or maybe many aren't saying. I'm still interested to hear of how others found the 'install' ..I had a good experience but I believe others weren't so lucky.

The local Bridgewater array/experiment went bust by the way frown
No wonder when the paper gets it so wrong .....the arrays at Bridgewater were about reflectors..not PVs as shown in the story ....no wonder no one understand whats happening.
The whole business was centred making low tech reflectors 'locally' and quickly and using a high temp cell as the focal point of the system ....smart I thought as we need local manufacture which was the bulk of the work. and cwas planned to be the manufacturing business here .....but misinformation plagued them by the look of it.
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 06/11/2009 07:14

FB (2) Not happy Jan would be a 'family friendly' summary of my thoughts.
Posted by: Helen

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 06/11/2009 07:38

Likewise, I don't feel guilty about wind turbines going up here. At least in the interim it has created good employment for locals who would otherwise be unemployed and struggling... and the construction companies pay far better than what my husband earned as a security officer for a government institution (doubled his take home pay in fact).
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 06/11/2009 11:09

I haven't read through this "the Air Vent" blog "Invisible Elephants" post as yet but it looks like there is some very interesting historical global temp data predating the Hadley 1850's data discussed in this post.

A clickable map for some further historical temperature data can also be found at the "Climate reason" blog site here

As I have previously posted, one of the best historical web sites for a run down on 5000 years of weather through history or at least weather through the history of the British Isles and how that weather and the natural climate changes have affected the outcomes of much of our history, then the Booty/ metindex website put together by a british meteorologists is one of the best sites I have come across.
Just have a few hours to spare if you are into history and weather and want to browse through this site.
Posted by: TranslucidusW

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 06/11/2009 17:47

We put down a $2500 deposit on a NU-Energy 1Kw Solar PV system in April.

It was installed about 3 weeks ago and I love watching our meter (still the old one) go backwards.

The system is paid for under the old Govt scheme and we will only pay for the new dual meter ($400 in a few weeks time). We also get the deposit refunded (soon I hope).

NU-Energy get the Energy Credits (That's how they pay for the free installation).

So far it has produce 120Kwh and the Meter has incremented 80Kwh so we will be billed for 80KWh out of 200KWh - most chuffed.

In SA the metering is such that only when the old meter would have been going in reverse (ie Electricity TO the grid above instantaneous use) is the outgoing meter registering/increasing.

When total instantaneous use is greater than Solar then the Incoming meter increments by the difference.

This means we are NOT paid the higher rate for the Total produce - only for the excess not used instantaneously.

This means it is better not using appliances during the day as much as possible, to maximise the produced KWh metering. Washing, Drying, TV, Computer etc to be used more when the sun is down.

Apparently only 1 or 2 states meter outgoing and incoming totally separately and in total. (ie ALL SOlar is rebated at 60c/KWh or whatever and ALL incoming at 17c/KWh)

Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 06/11/2009 22:46

Climate change skeptics 'reckless gamblers.
PRIME Minister Kevin Rudd has launched a stinging attack on opposition climate change sceptics, a month out from the Copenhagen summit.

In a lengthy address to Sydney's Lowy Institute today, Mr Rudd declared the sceptics to be gamblers who were betting their grandchildren's future away.

"These do-nothing climate change sceptics are prepared to destroy our children's future," Mr Rudd said.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,26313328-29277,00.html
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 07/11/2009 07:11

I think our esteemed leaders and representatives should engage more with the actual science than colourful debating points. This addiction to slogans really obscures the issues.
Posted by: SBT

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 07/11/2009 13:36

Read my signature.
Posted by: Severely Tall

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 07/11/2009 20:11

I think an interesting question here looking at the governmental approach is whether the prospective gains in any way match the time and effort in establishing the ETS. I tend to be of the opinion that it is driven by ulterior motives and won't actually change anything. The biggest mistake in this debate is suggesting there are 2 sides: I would argue there are probably 5.
1. Those who do not believe any kind of warming is occuring.
2. Those who believe warming is occuring but anthropogenic contributions have not caused it.
3. Those who just think the world is going on its natural merry old way but is currently in a warming cycle.
4. Those who believe that the planet is warming and that anthropogenic causes are partly to blame.
5. Those who believe that is all Mankinds fault.

Unfortunately group 5 are construed as being part of a combined group 4 and 5, and are generally the radically opinioned enviromentalists who believe that the only way to save the planet is to revert to a pre-civilised world. I think part of the problem is that these individuals seem to grab many of the headlines, blaming everything on climate change, when in fact other things are at stake. What really seems to be the consensus of the scientific community as I have read is somewhere between 3-4, probably slightly closer to 4. The world appears to be warming and action is required IF we are to blame either partly or fully. When it comes to the response of implementing an ETS which will:
A) Penalise farmers eventually in dropping their profits which are already drought stricken.
B) Subsidise the worst polluters in coal-fired powerplants and fund 'Clean' Coal technologies which according to sources in the US are not even possible for at least 20 years on a powerplant scale.
C) Hurt the cost of produce, fuel and the like.
D) Employ more economists to work out the costs....which is rather ironic given these parties seem to be the strongest supporters of the scheme....vested interest?

My personal opinion is in that consensus, the ETS is not the answer whether we are or are not to blame. If the money spent subsidising the polluters and the economists was used on R+D and actually doing something effective rather than implementing a tax we would be far better off. Maybe the best course of action would be to wait for emphatic evidence (which already exists but probably needs to be verified and extended) that we are contributing to this problem, but during that period work on developing alternate power resources to support our country, which will eventually need to look at moving on from the inefficiences of coal soon anyway. That money into R+D could yield a solution meaning no Carbon input and no fossil fuel shortages in the future....sooner or later we need to decide what we are going to do when our resources begin to fail...and will be wasted on pencil pushers otherwise.

Maybe we just need to step back and realise there are hardliners and then there is reality to both sides of this debate. I would be interested to know whether the stance of greenies on the pro-AGW side contributes to the opinion of those who oppose it.
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 08/11/2009 07:16

Well put ST.

As to your last question, the mere presence of so called greenies in any issues enrages many people,polarises views, and generally disrupts any effort to engage with the issues at all. Inarticulate rage is a very interesting and somewhat alarming phenomenon in society, and can be found in other situations not involving so called green views. It is a political dimension I think is impossible to discuss here, even though it is of great interest to political scientists.

But to put in another way in a fairly loose analogy. I've only ever been to one Celtic v Rangers soccer game in the UK, back in the 60s. Damn scary. The stadium was chokka with two groups who didn't believe the other had any right to exist. This 'dynamic' which amounts at times to undiluted hatred can be found in this debate too. And it doesn't inform anything, nor contribute to understanding and action.

There is also one other characteristic, in political science terms, of this phenomenon, which is issue attachment. The presence of the 'greens' (or tree huggers etc) sees them stigmatised as also representing other socially contentious issues, so that the popular 'debate' about AGW can lead to those who support it being associated with a huge range of other issues that also enrage their opponents, and of course, illogical though this may be, it sure poisons the air.

For what it is worth, many of the self professed greens I meet are as ignorant of the science involved as are their opponents. We end up with AGW being the proxy for a host of all sorts of disagreements which I refrain from listing here, and no light gets thrown on AGW at all.


I agree strongly with your view about an ETS. However if, big if, clean coal was sustainable etc in 20 years time the timing in terms of the need to replace 'worn out' current generation coal stations would be almost perfect.

Like all machines involving heat, pressure and corrosion, coal or gas burning power stations have finite lifetimes beyond which rectification becomes uneconomic compared to demolition and replacement. The very walls of the furnaces and the innards of the heat transfer assemblies undergo phase changes, and become brittle, inefficient and dangerous. If, hypothetically, all coal and gas burning stations were to be replaced in the course of their economic cycles by clean technology by 2050 the AGW issues would disappear, irrespective of whether the science was right or wrong.
Posted by: Ijay

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 08/11/2009 09:03

Good posts ST and Ben.
On ST's scale I'm probably about 3.3 and I concur with the comments on the pain an ETS will inflict on ordinary folk.

What I really want to say at the moment is that for the first time in my life the nations Prime Minister has really offended me. His rant at the Lowy Inst. recently seemed to be a huge dummy spit because he is not getting what he wants (poor fella). To dump on those who do not agree with his desired course of action and condemn them saying they do not care about their children and the children of others is very poor and probably politically stupid.

I certainly do not want him to race to Copenhagen and make commitments on my behalf with which I don't agree!
Posted by: aerology

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 08/11/2009 11:35

I would have to say I hold an opinion at about 2.8, I see the peak of the warming around 1998 and subsequent decline since, a problem for the argument for CO2 causes alone.

From the results of study of Planetary alignments effects on the weather over the past 30 years. I would much rather blame the conjunction of Neptune and Uranus occurring in Northern Mid summer, back in 1993 as bringing in an increase of tropical air, every time the Earth passed them in July, by 2001 the separation of their effects was discernible, once they were passed by the Earth, more than 15 days apart. Now in 2009 they are a full month apart in their influence and the effects no longer seem to be combining to create increased spikes of temperatures globally.

With the decreased solar sunspots from a minimum that will probably last into a slow / low output cycle 24, people should be able to see that the temperatures are a natural system driven by solar output, and planetary interactions, with the global weather patterns, and not just the smoke from man's brush fires.

I just retired from being a CNC machinist for the air scrubbing devision of a major coal powered power plant manufacture, and they have made great advances in reducing the emissions from the new plants they install now, and about 75% of the work we did for the past 6 years was to retrofit older power plants to fit the newer codes, with greatly reduced emissions.

I would like to say that clean coal technology is alive and well, and is usually adopted into the systems as they under go their frequent 6 -12 months overhaul of the support systems for the coal preparation and burning components.

These parts, by design are expected to be inspected monthly, repairs made as needed, and one of the 4 to 6 boiler/burner interfaces per operation to be shutdown and checked, for wear and parts replacement, in the spring and fall, as standard operation.

I personally support sustainable farming, and organic gardening for the bulk of personal food supplies, and think getting off of the grid is a good idea. Too old to start over again, so retro fits are the way to go in my opinion, and conversions to EFFICENT alternate sources of energy, including clean coal(@about 8 cents US per kilowatt production cost) the way of the future.

Not fore see able now, in the direction they are going with food conversion to fuel ideas, personal PV augment, and shared wind and tidal power applications, may be helpful but conservation of current power sources is paramount.
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 08/11/2009 12:21

I think most would fit in 2 to 4 from those I talk with on the land.
And yes Aero the effects of the low cyle 24 are yet to be really felt yet with
the lag through the oceans to come.
I would welcome any environmentally friendly approach that cuts pollutions of
any sort, but I don't really view CO2 as one of the pollutants, or at best it
has to be a low priority below any other chemical concoctions, poisons that abound.
R & D research needs to be put into agriculture, fishing, and better use of water,
and more natural development & use of pest treatments that abound in natures cupboards,
and cleaner technology brought in at a sensible rate that we can easily handle and not go broke
and increase the rate of poverty worldwide, as the main R & D priorities imo.
The rain forests and other forecasts need to be protected well and better use made
of the land we use for food, which includes the R & D help and more ecological
tree-bush areas and bands to help bee and birds and native animals and insects
to breed to help pollination and control pests better and help erosion and to help
local rainfall and lessen temperature extremes and extra frosts and better shelter belts for stock.

Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 08/11/2009 21:56

Climate sceptics persist against Turnbull
CLIMATE change sceptics in the Liberal Party will not be silenced despite Opposition Leader Malcolm Turnbull's contention there is ''overwhelming support … right across the board'' within party ranks for a carbon trading scheme.

The sceptics dominated debate on climate change in a meeting of the Victorian division of the Liberal Party yesterday.

One rank-and-file Liberal member was given rousing applause when he said global warming was a natural phenomenon and the theory that human activity had caused it was ''absolute rubbish''.

Another speaker said those proposing action on climate change were working towards creating a ''world government'', while a third said any engagement on the issue would signal that the Liberals had ''raised the white flag''.

http://www.theage.com.au/environment/cli...91107-i2vs.html
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 08/11/2009 22:05

Climate change is all about power

On November 6, The Market Oracle posted Robert Murphy's lengthy article, "Freaking Out over Global Warming," a review of Steven Levitt and Stephen Dubner's book Super Freakonomics

The whole argument in the book and in the review seems to be centered on the science and economics of climate change.

Unfortunately, climate change isn't about science. Climate change quit being about science almost from the beginning.

Climate change is about raw, naked, unabashed political power.

Climate change isn't, and has never been, about economics either.

http://www.examiner.com/x-1449-Dallas-Libertarian-Examiner~y2009m11d7-Climate-change-is-all-about-power



Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 08/11/2009 22:16

Al Gore Appeals to "Collective Will" to Solve Climate Change

According to critics, for Al Gore, “going green” is not just a slogan for saving the world, it is a description of his bank account.

But the green guru doesn’t like people noticing the fact that regardless of whether or not temperatures are rising, Gore’s bank balance has shot straight for the stratosphere.The Telegraph.co.uk reports that "since he quit mainstream politics, Mr Gore’s personal fortune has risen from £1.2 million [$2 million] to an estimated £60 million [$100 million]."

http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/...-climate-change
Posted by: davidg

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 08/11/2009 22:39

Some excellent posts, id put myself at about 3.1. The general feel of the above posts, regardless of ones veiw on AGW, is that it would be a hell of a lot easier and a lot less heated if we could **ss off the idiots, hangers-on and opportunists and just get on the with the research (by which i mean the actual climate research scientists). The likes of Al Gore and various bodies such as the IPCC only cloud the issue as far as i can tell and politicise it. If there is a sure fire way to get no-where fast its to politicise an issue. If we cant all agree on the science i think its important that we can all identify that as an issue thats almost as important as the science itself. Trouble is the majority of the general public dont want to hear about the science they just want to know how it might effect them, therefore commercial networks are much more likely to talk up "extreme weather events" and "heatwaves" as this is what the veiwing public wants to hear. Kind of frustrating really.
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 08/11/2009 23:15

Most certainly frustrating D. ABC & SBS ( Government owned ) needs to be sacked for the garbage that they put forth.
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 09/11/2009 08:03

Good Letter in Queensland Country Life (14/10/09)

Bob Beatty writes


AS global warming hysteria rises to a crescendo ahead of the Liberal Party meeting this weekend I would like to add just two words: ‘Henry’s Law’ for those who have forgotten more chemistry than they were ever taught.
Wikipedia relates: “In chemistry, Henry’s law is one of the gas laws, formulated by William Henry in 1803.”
It states: “At a constant temperature, the amount of a given gas dissolved in a given type and volume of liquid is directly proportional to the partial pressure of that gas in equilibrium with that liquid – an equivalent way of stating the law is that the solubility of a gas in a liquid at a particular temperature is proportional to the pressure of that gas above the liquid.”
The science fact is that the atmospheric level of CO2 is always in balance with the sea temperature as postulated by William Henry two centuries ago. It does not matter how much CO2 is pumped into the air, it will always find an equilibrium concentration as a function of the sea temperature.
In other words, if the sea temperature rises, so will the atmospheric concentration of CO2 – regardless of whether any extra CO2 has been produced on Earth. Similarly the CO2 concentration in air will fall when the sea temperature falls – regardless of the amount of CO2 produced on earth.
This happens because CO2 entering the sea forms into the aqueous, then bicarbonate and then carbonate radicals. To come back from the bicarbonate state the sea temperature would have to rise above 50 deg C and to about 700 deg C for the carbonate to disassociate. This leaves only the aqueous component of CO2 in the sea available for re-release to the atmosphere. This component’s concentration is solely dependent on sea temperature and the atmospheric partial pressure of CO2.
It is therefore fair to say that CO2 is very, very, very, soluble in sea water. The last two ‘verys’ form into a one-way street capturing CO2 forever and a day – a bottomless pit if you like. The sea will never get super saturated with CO2, because the bicarbonate and carbonate ions have myriad end uses in the oceans most of which end up as calcium carbonate or free carbon. Of all the problems facing this world CO2 is not one of them.
I am surprised from all the discussion held on this subject no one I have come across has focussed on the solubility aspects of CO2. This is completely fundamental to the whole global warming debate. – Bob Beatty, Camira.
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 09/11/2009 09:12

The above is very interesting Simmo and I have never seen this chemical side of the debate discussed anywhere in the blogs or in any papers.

Tie the above in with the .2 of a cubic kilometre [ 200 million cubic metres ] of sea water per person on the planet [ 1.3 million cubic kilometres of sea water / 6.7 billion population. ] equivalent to a cube of sea water that is very close to 600 metres on each side for each person on earth and you start to see the utter stupidity of the claims of acidifying the oceans and the incredible size of the planetary CO2 sink or even a CO2 source under different ocean temperature conditions.
And the amount of heat energy that has to be altered in the oceans for any perceptible change in the total global temperatures and not just in the small amount of heat energy that is in the atmosphere.
The total amount of atmospheric heat energy is equalled by the amount of heat energy in the top 2.6 metres of the world's oceans.
Posted by: Severely Tall

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 09/11/2009 12:03

The above both neglect the other factors in the balance or the true solubility arguments (which are actually a very complex equilibrium and very much temperature dependant in all aspects..basically the end result regardless of the above being increases in ocean temperature, particularly in the lower levels will lead to a release of CO2 and lower the suspendable markedly). In the previous thread I spent some time outlining why this was the case. Acidifying the oceans is not a big step here really....it only takes a very small swing to change the equilibrium state...and corals as well as other species sensitive to pH changes will suffer greatly under even minute changes...relative and not absolute acidity is the point here (again a 4 vs 5 difference). Thats why it doesnt appear in Blogs, as it is a null argument...Henry's law is only one aspect in the solubility game and only applies to certain situations.
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 09/11/2009 17:40

Liberal MP rubbishes human link to climate change

Federal Liberal MP Dennis Jensen says the cause of climate change is still in dispute and has attacked environmentalists as "anti-democratic alarmists".

Dr Jensen, who has spoken out previously on the issue, has also called for the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) to be disbanded.

His comments come as the Coalition struggles with internal division on climate change policy.

In a speech to open the Australian Environment Foundation's annual conference in Canberra today, Dr Jensen said the question of whether climate change was caused by human activity was still up for debate.

"It will come as no surprise that I am sceptical on the anthropogenic component of climate change," he said.

"Climate change is real - the liability of humans in questionable."

Dr Jensen criticised the climate change science and accused the environmental movement of wanting to overthrow democracy.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/10/20/2719004.htm
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 09/11/2009 17:48


Petition against signing the Copenhagen climate treaty
Add your voice. Protect Australia's sovereignty and taxpayers' money by completing the petition below.


http://www.corybernardi.com/
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 09/11/2009 18:02


Gore Gone Wild: Predicts 220 Foot Sea Level Rise in 10 years


http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2009/10/gore_gone_wild_predicts_220_fo.html
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 10/11/2009 06:25

Simmosturf,

Did you not correct this report in the earlier version of this thread? In the last week the media has carried several reports pointing out that in Australia net sea level rises are in the sub millimetre per year range. It was responsible reporting, and if you visit the ABC News archives...yes, the dreaded and wicked ABC...the WA edition carried a remarkably sane and erudite account of the research.

I am beginning to worry that this thread may be threatened by an outback of sensible and scholarly reporting....and not before time either.
Posted by: Arnoldnut

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 10/11/2009 07:08

Arnost quote '
And if it's legislated that these HAVE to replace the current (and perfectly functional normal - dumb?) meters, then this will further impose a useless economic cost. '


I have a 'dumb' meter .....but it is a clockwork one that does register and respond to power returning to the grid from my PVs on the roof but doesn't credit my account at 60c /kW but only at the 16/19c price.

I have told the power company authority I DON"T want one of the smart meters ...if you amortise the cost of the meters against the gains to all concerned, there is no gains for australia at all.
Hotch potch installation of these meters is ridiculous and I've asked that they show me that this is not the case before they install my meter.
I've payed for my meter already ..but I'm prepared to wait for a blanket instal rather than waste /burn carbon/ just to install one meter in amongst hundreds of 'dumb' ones.

Sorry but using up any chance of carbon gains by installing fancy meters with these PV instals is quite ridiculous and quite cancels out the gains of the install of the PVs in the first place.

I'm just asking them to NOT instal the smart meter at this time ..the meter we have works fine just doesn't send numbers back for people to make policical milage from.
Posted by: Keith

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 10/11/2009 10:08

Originally Posted By: Ben Sandilands
Simmosturf,

Did you not correct this report in the earlier version of this thread? In the last week the media has carried several reports pointing out that in Australia net sea level rises are in the sub millimetre per year range. It was responsible reporting, and if you visit the ABC News archives...yes, the dreaded and wicked ABC...the WA edition carried a remarkably sane and erudite account of the research.

I am beginning to worry that this thread may be threatened by an outback of sensible and scholarly reporting....and not before time either.


It's not much use in the archives when it isn't (in my view) consistent with the station's wider mainstream reporting on the topic. Most of us don't have the time to be going into all the archived reporting of every newspaper in the country. We expect to rely on what we do hear as balanced, even if it's balanced sensationalism.

I'm not going to get into a media/ABC bashing discussion as I'm not here to 'bash' the media. However I will be critical of any who in my view can't be trusted to provide to the public, a balanced view of both sides of this debate. One only has to have watched the ABC's kangaroo court that, after the screening of the 'anti-AGW' video (I forget its name now), staged a panel of 7 people for discussion of it, of which 5 were more or less ardent 'pro-AGW' supporters. The minority didn't stand a chance. When I went to school 5 and 2 weren't equal, and they still aren't, as far as I know. In fact it made me wonder why those 2 people ever bothered to be involved in the first place. Surely they knew they'd be outflanked in spite of their qualifications to comment.

For what my views might be worth in these forums nowadays, in a lot of political-type issues the ABC doesn't meet that criterion.
Posted by: Arnost

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 10/11/2009 11:46

Quote:
In the last week the media has carried several reports pointing out that in Australia net sea level rises are in the sub millimetre per year range. It was responsible reporting, and if you visit the ABC News archives...


I’ve been looking into to this a bit…

The Australian (and the BBC for that matter) articles cite the "latest" BoM National Tidal Centre report as "June" - which is interesting as the September monthly report has just been released. I don’t have any idea as to why except that maybe there was no space for it until now, or that it will have more traction closer to Copenhagen.

The thing that then caught my attention was the difference in the trend between the East and West coasts of Australia – next to nothing on the East but 8.6mm / yr out west. And I am not sure that Dr John Church’s explanation for the difference (lack of barometric adjustment / continental rebound) is a full explanation.

If you look at figure 11 in the reports(s) linked above – basically raw data (I think) there does appear to be a difference in the trends. But what becomes clear when the seasonal signals and trends are removed – see at figure 12 in the report(s) linked above - which shows the sea level anomalies over the last 20 years that is adjusted, you will see that the sea levels off the West coast of Australia respond more to ENSO than the East coast. And I just don't see an 8.6mm / yr trend there if you discount the response to ENSO. I think that the 8.6mm / yr claim is a statistical artifice and a consequence of starting the trend in the 90's when the sea levels dipped during the "large" El Niño’s predominant then. If you began the trend analysis for West Coast of Australia say in 1999/2000 - you'd get a serious decrease to now...

Now I’m not sure whether the ENSO effect is a direct sea level rise/dip as a consequence of the movement of water across the Pacific, (or more likely in my opinion) a consequence of barometric effects (i.e. predominant highs / lows in the area), but it is interesting nevertheless and is I feel a better explanation for the difference in trends between the coasts (and it is actually so mentioned in the reports).

As to continental rising more in the East, there is no isostatic rebound as Australia was not covered in ice during the Pleistocene, and as it is in the middle of a large continental plate, I feel that any rises will be negligible or equivalent between the coasts. I am happy to be corrected though.

Oh, and I hope you are being facetious when you suggest that the WA ABC article was: “remarkably sane and erudite account of the research”.

Link to Australian Baseline Sea Level Monitoring Project – the South Pacific reports are also very interesting to have a browse through and see the huge impact of ENSO on the sea levels on the islands in the equatorial west Pacific…

cheers
Posted by: Arnost

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 10/11/2009 13:46

A new instalment / TV doco on the hockey stick wars. This also appeared on WUWT - but here's a link to the transcript from the Finnish TV station where it is to screen. An interesting read focussing on the recent kerfuffle on Yamal and Korttajärvi proxy / reconstructions.

Money quote: "MOT asked for an interview with the director of the Finnish meteorological institute, Dr. Petteri Taalas, who is sympathetic to the IPCC's main line. He refused."

cheers
Posted by: Mike Hauber

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 10/11/2009 13:54

Originally Posted By: Arnost

The thing that then caught my attention was the difference in the trend between the East and West coasts of Australia – next to nothing on the East but 8.6mm / yr out west. And I am not sure that Dr John Church’s explanation for the difference (lack of barometric adjustment / continental rebound) is a full explanation.


I think John Church's explanation is for difference between the observed sea level change in the east and the global average of 3.4 mm/year. There is probably a separate reason for why west coast sea levels are rising at over 8mm a year, which is over twice the global average.

Originally Posted By: Arnost

As to continental rising more in the East, there is no isostatic rebound as Australia was not covered in ice during the Pleistocene, and as it is in the middle of a large continental plate, I feel that any rises will be negligible or equivalent between the coasts. I am happy to be corrected though.


A bit of google hunting hasn't turned up much. There is this media release discussing research into the possibility of the Indo-Australian plate breaking up due to stresses. Also consider the fact that Darwin and Newcastle have quakes from time to time so the continent is probably not totally static.

The northwest corner of the Indo-Australia plate is being subducted underneath Indonesia. I would guess that the North Western Australia coast line may be close enough to this subduction zone to be subsiding a little and so increase the sea level rise there. See here for a few details
Posted by: mobihci

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 10/11/2009 14:04

this is another look at the regions sea levels-

http://nzclimatescience.net/images/PDFs/spsl3.pdf
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 10/11/2009 14:04

Simmosturf,

Everything goes into the archives after a day or so.

Mike,

The Newcastle series of earthquakes since European settlement and records of them began is troubling. We are drawing close to the time when on past behaviour another quake, one hopes a minor one only, is likely to occur.
Posted by: Arnost

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 10/11/2009 14:13

Quote:
I think John Church's explanation is for difference between the observed sea level change in the east and the global average of 3.4 mm/year.

Agree – probably the case… Nevertheless, I feel that the newspaper reports (and tacitly John Church) did not provide the most sensible explanation. And I think that’s poor.

ENSO is singled out specifically in the NTC reports – and the 97/98 event stands out like shag on a rock. From the report:
Quote:
Observed trends in sea level include natural variability, for example, events such as El Niño and effects due to many other atmospheric, oceanographic and geological processes.


Still reckon it’s a statistical artifice.
Posted by: TranslucidusW

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 10/11/2009 20:37

On October 14, Lord Christopher Monckton gave a presentation in St. Paul, MN on the subject of global warming.

Click this to view (video)
Posted by: Seina

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 10/11/2009 21:38

To be honest, I couldn't care less about the pros and cons for and against AGW, because at the end of the day, if neither "side" has sufficient and concrete scientific evidence to back up what they say, they would be wasting their time debating and probably know they're doing it simply to get the attention, fuelling the fire...which, in my humble opinion, speaks words.

And no, I don't have a news article to present, because even if I did, what's seems interesting to me might not be of interest to others, hence my questioning of the title of this thread.
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 10/11/2009 23:26

Climate-Change Panic Down Under
Tough economic times have a way of clarifying political priorities and forcing people to distinguish among needs, wishes—and fantasies. So you might think a politician as canny as Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd would know better than to blame his country's new-found skepticism about the risks of global warming on something other than an evil conspiracy.

In a speech in Sydney on Friday, Mr. Rudd claimed "climate-change skeptics, the climate-change deniers, the opponents of climate-change action are active in every country." The prime minister then linked this global conspiracy to "vested interests" bent on "slowing and if possible destroying the momentum towards a global deal on climate change."

Mr. Rudd went on to attack, by name, "the vocal group of conservatives who do not accept the scientific consensus"; opposition leader Malcolm Turnbull, who has questioned the wisdom of taxing the most productive sectors of Australia's economy during the downturn; and "world government conspiracy theorists" who worry about devolving tax-and-spend powers to unaccountable United Nations bureaucrats.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704402404574525031879821944.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
Posted by: roves

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 11/11/2009 09:37

Mr Rudd is showing his true colours now, just pathetic how he turns when someone disagrees with him or what he wants. I will go as far as saying the longer he is at the top the bigger mess Australia will be in. DONT sell out this country.
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 11/11/2009 10:22

From Science Daily ; "Antarctica Glacier Retreat Creates New...Climate Change"

Sorry folks but I am starting to laugh every time I see a new article on some new aspect of the climate and the unbelievably complex interactions involving weather systems, the immensely complex biological interactions between the Earth's biota, the ever changing climate and the so called green house gases and then there is still the role of the oceans in all their immense and extraordinarily complex effects on our global climate.

When I read articles like that one headlined above, the claims from the warmistas that give the strong impression that the Earth's climate is clearly understood and that there is a very simple solution to fixing the global climate in one fixed and ongoing perpetual state by just simply eliminating a tiny percentage of a very minor atmospheric gas is just laughable in the extreme.

Nobody really has much idea yet on the true complexity of our global climate despite repeated claims to the contrary that give the impression that the climate is fully understood by the "climate scientists" and that it is all cut and dried on the future devastation of the global climate unless" we do something now!"

And my laughter is at the pure naivete of the more fanatical AGW believers, none here fortunately, in believing that in the overall scheme of things, a tiny minute increase in just one very minor essential to life gas will create immense disruption to life on earth and is forecast by some more fanatical believers to almost lead to the destruction of life on Earth.
Posted by: Vlasta

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 12/11/2009 00:59

Its in the human nature to proof tobe important as most of climate scientists think they are. Then they make one more stupid prediction after another. Perfect example 2007 "arctic meltdown" Every dumbo wanted to get on the wagon arctic free of ice in 2013 as soon as possible , and now they have changed their predictions .

I have a very good crystal ball , it tells me

In time the "deniers" will be honored for their courage to speak out and hopefully save the world from deceit coming out of the leading scientists , who think that climatology is just a fat cow.
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 12/11/2009 06:52

In time those who stuck to their work as researchers under fire will be recognised, irrespective of what the verdict is based on the work that they do.

It is a pity to see terms like 'dumbos' and other expressions of personal vilification appear here, and I suggest that the moderators moderate, and stick to their commitment concerning personal attacks.

All personal attacks.
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 12/11/2009 07:14

http://bobtisdale.blogspot.com/2009/11/global-temperatures-this-decade-will-be.html

A small part of Bobs article appears below...At a quick read it is very well researched and excellent article...very well done. It appears well worth a detailed read for all.

"GLOBAL TEMPERATURES THIS DECADE WILL BE THE WARMEST ON RECORD

It became apparent a number of years ago that the current decade, the 2000s, would have the highest surface temperature since the start of the instrument temperature record. Prior to now, the record decade for Global Surface Temperature Anomalies, Global Lower Troposphere Temperature (TLT) Anomalies, and Global Sea Surface Temperature (SST) anomalies had been the 1990s. Table 1 shows the average 1990s and 2000s (to date) temperature anomalies furnished by different suppliers, and the difference between the two decades. And with the end of this decade drawing near, one should expect to hear of this new record time and time again. There are those who will exploit this in the next few months and in the years to come. Those parties will, of course, blame anthropogenic greenhouse gases for the rise.

THOSE WHO TRUMPET THE ELEVATED TEMPERATURES WILL FAIL TO ACKNOWLEDGE THE NON-LINEAR RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE EL NINO-SOUTHERN OSCILLATION (ENSO) AND GLOBAL TEMPERATURES

There have been a number of recent research papers that have illustrated a linear relationship between El Nino-Southern Oscillation (ENSO) and global temperature. These papers contradict what is clearly visible in the instrument temperature record, and that is, that the relationship between ENSO and global temperature is non-linear. In a comparison of global temperatures and natural variables, the researchers scale one of the ENSO indices, and after adjusting for other natural variables such as solar irradiance and volcanic aerosols, the researchers claim the difference between those natural variables and global temperatures must be caused by the increase in anthropogenic greenhouse gases. A simplified example of these comparisons is shown in Figure 1; it compares global SST anomalies and scaled NINO3.4 SST anomalies, one of the ENSO indices. It also shows their linear trends. I’ve excluded volcanic aerosol and solar adjustments to simplify the illustration. Note how the Global SST anomaly trend is increasing while the NINO3.4 SST anomaly trend is decreasing. As noted earlier, there are those who would like you to believe that the difference in those trends is caused by anthropogenic greenhouse gases.

THOSE WHO TRUMPET THE ELEVATED TEMPERATURES WILL FAIL TO ACKNOWLEDGE THE NON-LINEAR RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE EL NINO-SOUTHERN OSCILLATION (ENSO) AND GLOBAL TEMPERATURES

There have been a number of recent research papers that have illustrated a linear relationship between El Nino-Southern Oscillation (ENSO) and global temperature. These papers contradict what is clearly visible in the instrument temperature record, and that is, that the relationship between ENSO and global temperature is non-linear. In a comparison of global temperatures and natural variables, the researchers scale one of the ENSO indices, and after adjusting for other natural variables such as solar irradiance and volcanic aerosols, the researchers claim the difference between those natural variables and global temperatures must be caused by the increase in anthropogenic greenhouse gases. A simplified example of these comparisons is shown in Figure 1; it compares global SST anomalies and scaled NINO3.4 SST anomalies, one of the ENSO indices. It also shows their linear trends. I’ve excluded volcanic aerosol and solar adjustments to simplify the illustration. Note how the Global SST anomaly trend is increasing while the NINO3.4 SST anomaly trend is decreasing. As noted earlier, there are those who would like you to believe that the difference in those trends is caused by anthropogenic greenhouse gases......(much missed out and many excellent graphs not included here...well worth the full read for sure imo)

CLOSING

There is little doubt that the decade of the 2000s will have higher land surface, sea surface, and lower troposphere temperature anomalies than the 1990s. There will be those who will wrongly attribute the rise from decade to decade to anthropogenic greenhouse gases, when it is very apparent that the actual cause is the lingering effects of the 1997/98 El Nino event. Attempts will be made to contradict the obvious by those who fail to acknowledge or comprehend the multiyear aftereffects of significant traditional El Nino events. They will present numerous unfounded arguments. Here are a few that have been tried.

Argument 1: The short-term global warming of El Nino events are countered by the short-term global cooling of the La Nina events that follow them.

What The Instrument Temperature Record Shows: That’s true for only parts of the globe and for some El Nino events. It is not true, however, for the SST anomalies of the East Indian and West Pacific Oceans and for the TLT anomalies of the Mid-To-High Latitudes of the Northern Hemisphere. Refer to Figures 4 and 8. The effects of the 1986/87/88 and the 1997/98 El Nino lingered through the La Nina events that followed them in those datasets. This created the appearance of gradual rises in global SST and TLT anomalies.

Argument 2: Global warming caused by anthropogenic greenhouse gases is responsible for the increase in the number of major El Nino events since 1975. (This argument is normally made by someone referring to an ENSO Index that starts in 1950.)

What The Instrument Temperature Record Shows: There are multidecadal variations in the frequency and magnitude of ENSO events. This can be seen by smoothing the NINO3.4 SST anomalies from 1870 to 2009 with a 121-month filter. Refer to Figure 13. During epochs when the frequency and magnitude of El Nino events outweigh the frequency and magnitude of La Nina events, global temperatures rise. And during epochs when the frequency and magnitude of La Nina events outweigh the frequency and magnitude of El Nino events, global temperatures drop.

Argument 3: El Nino events don’t create heat.

What The Instrument Temperature Record Shows: During El Nino events, warm water that had been stored below the surface of the western tropical Pacific (in the Pacific Warm Pool) sloshes to the east and rises to the surface. Tropical Pacific SST anomalies increase in response. In this way, more heat than normal is released from the tropical Pacific to the atmosphere. But El Nino events not only release heat into the atmosphere, they also shift atmospheric circulation patterns (Hadley and Walker Circulation, surface winds, cloud cover). These shifts in the circulation patterns and cloud cover cause surface temperatures and OHC outside of the tropical Pacific to rise.

It is important to note that the vast majority of the warm water that sloshes east during the El Nino had been stored below the surface before the El Nino. While below the surface (to depths of 300 meters) it was not included in the instrument temperature record. But during the El Nino, that warm water has been relocated to the surface and is included in the surface temperature record. So, El Nino events relocate warm water from an area that was not included in the calculation of global temperature to the surface where it is included.

Argument 4: Climate models used by the IPCC reproduce these El Nino-induced step changes.

What The Climate Models Show: Most of the climate models (GCMs) used by the IPCC in AR4 for hindcasting 20th Century climate do not bother to model ENSO. Those that make the effort do not model it well. The frequency, magnitudes, linear trends, and multiyear aftereffects of those models do not match the surface temperature record. The step changes that exist in the instrument temperature record, which are the bases for the much of the rises in global temperatures, do not exist in the model outputs of the 20th century.

If and when GCMs can reproduce the past frequency and magnitude of ENSO events, if and when GCMs can reproduce the multiyear aftereffects of ENSO events, which are these El Nino-induced step changes (including the ones that also appear in the OHC records), then GCMs may have some predictive value. At present they cannot reproduce ENSO or its multiyear aftereffects. At present they have no value.

This failure of GCMs to properly account for the multiyear impacts of major El Nino events (and other natural variables such as the North Atlantic Oscillation) can be seen in a graph of the actual rise in global OHC versus the projected rise forecast by GISS, Figure 14. The GCM used by GISS based its projection on the rise in Ocean Heat Content during the 1990s, assuming the trend would continue at that pace. But during the 1990s, the vast majority of the rise in OHC was caused by the combined effects of ENSO and the North Atlantic Oscillation, and these are natural variables that the GISS GCM did not model. Since 2003, Global Ocean Heat Content has been relatively flat, while the GISS projection reaches to unrealized levels."

Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 12/11/2009 07:58

Much appreciated BD. It is always good to read articles that are well researched even if many may argue some or all of the conclusions. Without debate there is less progress, perhaps even no progress.
Posted by: Arnost

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 12/11/2009 09:57

Quote:
In time those who stuck to their work as researchers under fire will be recognised, irrespective of what the verdict is based on the work that they do.

It is a pity to see terms like 'dumbos' and other expressions of personal vilification appear here, and I suggest that the moderators moderate, and stick to their commitment concerning personal attacks.


I actually support that... there is no need for derigatory comments (incl. third parties). Show the evidence - if it stacks up, there is no need to vilify - that will take care of itself.
Posted by: Mike Hauber

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 12/11/2009 10:31

After a minority group of agitators petitioned for a change to the American Physics Society's statement on climate change, the Society decided it would be a good idea to review their statement, which now stands as:

Emissions of greenhouse gases from human activities are changing the atmosphere in ways that affect the Earth's climate. Greenhouse gases include carbon dioxide as well as methane, nitrous oxide and other gases. They are emitted from fossil fuel combustion and a range of industrial and agricultural processes.

The evidence is incontrovertible: Global warming is occurring. If no mitigating actions are taken, significant disruptions in the Earth’s physical and ecological systems, social systems, security and human health are likely to occur. We must reduce emissions of greenhouse gases beginning now.

Because the complexity of the climate makes accurate prediction difficult, the APS urges an enhanced effort to understand the effects of human activity on the Earth’s climate, and to provide the technological options for meeting the climate challenge in the near and longer terms. The APS also urges governments, universities, national laboratories and its membership to support policies and actions that will reduce the emission of greenhouse gases.

Link to Rabbett Run Post
Posted by: Rime

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 12/11/2009 14:01

I just found this 'tongue in cheek' post on Andrew Bolt's blog.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Feel free to add your name to this letter in comments below:

Dear Mr Rudd,

I am an Australian who respects reason and evidence, and who wants this nation to prosper - and not squander its wealth.

On Friday I heard you say there is now a group of ”opponents of climate change action ... active in every country” that is “powerful enough to threaten a deal on global climate change both in Copenhagen and beyond”.

I would like to join this group. Can you please tell me where I can enrol?

Signed....

UPDATE

Professor Ian Plimer - in London for the debate that warmist George Monbiot chickened out of - joins this fast growing list below. So do engineers, scientists, academics and one of the candidates in the Higgins by-election (signature 600 or so - and no, it’s not the Liberal). So does Jo Nova, the science communicator who wrote the excellent Skeptics Handbook. Pass this letter on to your friends. Sign them up!

UPDATE 2

I explain to Alan Jones the absurdities in Rudd’s speech which prompted this request that he supply the conspiracy’s address. (Link fixed. Go to highlights panel.)

Tell Rudd you want this address, too. Sign up!

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andre...bal_conspiracy/
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The post has only been up for a few hours and already there is over 1000 comments. It illustrates that not everyone is getting sucked in by the media/political spin regarding this whole issue and the more that politicians are driving it home, the more skeptical the people are becoming.
Posted by: Shultzy

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 12/11/2009 14:19

Very, very interesting Rime. I never knew there were so many GW skeptics out there!

It's interesting that there are so many ex-scientists and such (people who should know the inside scoop) that are coming out of their shell and starting to attack GW...
Posted by: Mike Hauber

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 12/11/2009 15:19

Have you ever noticed that whenver climate skeptics try and point to the weight of numbers it is always 'thousands of people have signed this petition'. Out of all the millions of people who are eligible to sign such a petition.

However us warmers can quickly dig out a poll such as '69% of people think climate change is serious enough to justify a reduction in emissions greater than 50%' article. Or 97% of climate scientists who publish regularly believe humans are causing the planet to warm up. Blog Post

Climate skeptics will of course complain that these polls are biased in one way or another, but they will never point to their own poll of 'X% believe climate change is not caused by humans', because the skeptics are a noisy minority and 'thousands of signatures on a petition' is the only way they can spin their numbers to try and look significant.
Posted by: Keith

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 12/11/2009 15:57

Alan Jones and Andrew Bolt have a lot of 'enemies' out there (Mr Rudd included, it seems), who brand them as anything from (insert insult here) to 'rabid right'. But they are capable of defending themselves.

I find it hard to accept that if the contents of their discussion are factual, Mr Rudd hasn't put the brakes on his determination to see it through.

Is this because he is a politician not wanting his government to lose power? Or is this just 'the cryptic and the elliptic' (G K Chesterton) being applied by Alan and Andrew?

In the matter of 'what about the vote of the Australian people', I suppose the answer is that Mr Rudd was elected on a mandate to reverse 'global warming', meaning he can implement that any way he sees fit. But my objection to that is that responsibility to the electorate doesn't imply paying money to foreign bodies who in this case appear more motivated by wealth redistribution than the amelioration of global warming. It's this wealth thing that I find disturbing, not because the rich are just as guilty of greed but rather that it's not the answer, for the reason that I set out in the following paragraph. Instead of addressing the real problem of human greed, the UN and its offshoots resort to punishment by taking this 'Robin Hood' approach. Unless of course it's all untrue, which we don't know, do we, because, according to Jones and Bolt, neither the PM or Mr Turnbull have seen the draft agreement. And I guess it is only a draft, but we still ought to know what's in it.

The other thing is that, if we are to be handing money over, if we are to be 'fined', how can the recipients be trusted with it when Mr Rudd should know that overseas aid historically given has been repeatedly squandered corruptly by the politicians who are supposed to ensure it reaches those who need it?

This incessant repetition of the mantra 'we must act now' is sheer psychological propaganda. The use of the gerund in that statement implies hardline dogmatism bordering on religious insanity..which is what much of the propagation of this is anyway.

I trust this is all relevant to the topic..I think it is. If there is a conspiracy operating here, and I hope I'm wrong, then stop the world, I want to get off.
Posted by: Rime

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 12/11/2009 16:03

Originally Posted By: Mike Hauber
Have you ever noticed that whenver climate skeptics try and point to the weight of numbers it is always 'thousands of people have signed this petition'. Out of all the millions of people who are eligible to sign such a petition.

However us warmers can quickly dig out a poll such as '69% of people think climate change is serious enough to justify a reduction in emissions greater than 50%' article. Or 97% of climate scientists who publish regularly believe humans are causing the planet to warm up. Blog Post

Climate skeptics will of course complain that these polls are biased in one way or another, but they will never point to their own poll of 'X% believe climate change is not caused by humans', because the skeptics are a noisy minority and 'thousands of signatures on a petition' is the only way they can spin their numbers to try and look significant.


That is the problem with these so called polls. They say 70% (which I strongly doubt anyway) of people see Climate Change as serious, but how many of them have looked at the issue beyond the political hype and media hysteria. The ETS is all about a new tax without creating any benefit to the Climate even if the AGW theory is correct. Add on top of this that the government is looking at signing a UN treaty that will require us to pay $7 billion a year which could end up in the hands of China, Pakistan and the like! It is a con job through and through.

Spell out the truth behind the whole issue and then run a poll. I very strongly doubt you will get the 69%.
Posted by: Vlasta

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 12/11/2009 16:19

Mike
How would you and 97% of climate scientists know , that there is global warming ?

From GISS , hadcru , noaa and satelite readings.
Why is it that I know NOAA's surface station dont meet even their own requirments.
Their own graph sugests adjustments of 0.3 this century
Hadcru - the dog ate the data
GISS ( wont waste time on Hansen)
Even satelite data are not 100%

Ben , you can consider yourself lucky to be here , for your constant attacks in the past.
Calling somebody dumbo , whacko, etc is not an offence. Matter of fact its a constraint, in this case.
Google "holocost deniers" and you will know who is gonna be sued . Yes it is the mighty IPCC chairman him self.
Posted by: Flying Binghi (2)

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 12/11/2009 16:50


Quote:
After a minority group of agitators petitioned for a change to the American Physics Society's statement on climate change, the Society decided it would be a good idea to review their statement


"The American Physical Society (APS) is elated that APS Fellow John P. Holdren, an international expert on energy and climate change, has been confirmed as President Obama's director of the Office of Science and Technology Policy..."http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2009-03/aps-aac032309.php

Wonder if the APS president gets a Harvard job for her support ? ...although, in the past she has complained about government directing just what science research will be funded...now there's an interesting line of research - see where the funding comes from for the lumanaries of the APS review panel.... wink





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Posted by: Rime

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 12/11/2009 17:25

Originally Posted By: Vlasta

Ben , you can consider yourself lucky to be here , for your constant attacks in the past.
Calling somebody dumbo , whacko, etc is not an offence. Matter of fact its a constraint, in this case.
Google "holocost deniers" and you will know who is gonna be sued . Yes it is the mighty IPCC chairman him self.



I don't know about Ben, but I find that the use of the term 'dumbo' is offensive to all elephants. poke
Posted by: Mike Hauber

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 12/11/2009 17:34

Originally Posted By: Vlasta
Mike
How would you and 97% of climate scientists know , that there is global warming ?



If the world is not warming then why are there so many posts on Watts Up With That trying to explain that the warming is really due to natural cycles?
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 12/11/2009 17:46

There is a sharp contrast between the rest of Weatherzone and this thread when it comes to discussing various topics. I'd prefer to read the papers than attacks on the authors of the papers or their possible relationship to conspiracies real or imagined.

I do think it is important to challenge the science, indeed even to challenge whether the science is accurately quoted or summarised.

It is a bit subtle, but there is a difference between the need to make people think, and telling them what to think, and unfortunately both sides of this topic occasionally overlook that distinction.
Posted by: teckert

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 12/11/2009 17:48

Ok guys. Please back on track. You know the guidelines - critique the ideas not the person.
Posted by: windyrob

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 12/11/2009 18:02

Originally Posted By: Mike Hauber
Originally Posted By: Vlasta
Mike
How would you and 97% of climate scientists know , that there is global warming ?



If the world is not warming then why are there so many posts on Watts Up With That trying to explain that the warming is really due to natural cycles?

Lol Mike!
There clearly was warming from 1980 till now, and there clearly was cooling from about 03 till recently. (I'm being generous and not counting the 98 nino)
As for what caused the warming (from 1980), that would clearly be the 4% reduction in low cloud cover which corresponds to 0.3deg of warming, which would seem to be about 80% by eyeball!
Posted by: Arnost

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 12/11/2009 18:29

Quote:
Have you ever noticed that whenver climate skeptics try and point to the weight of numbers it is always 'thousands of people have signed this petition'. Out of all the millions of people who are eligible to sign such a petition.


Its probably a function of people being aware of the petition in the first place... Let's face it, the fact that Corey Bernardi, Barnaby Joyce and Andrew Bolt have pettitions running on this is nowhere to be seen in the MSM. If people don't come to sites like this where it just happens to be mentioned... No one will know about it.

That's a fact. For the last week:

Google NEWS search on "Petition ETS CPRS" returns nothing
Google NEWS search on "Petition CPRS"Returns a petition FOR the CPRS from the green left weekly
Google NEWS search on "Petition ETS" returns one item - the Barnaby Joyce petiton mentioned in a snippet in the Weekly Times.

And that's it.

Contrast that with the publicity for the 350.org Day. Google NEWS search for "350.org day" Literally hundreds of news items before and after.

To put it into perspective: No publicity - thousands of signatures. Massive publicity - a couple of hundred people (with probably half in the picture sticky beak tourists):

(Oh yes - out of the millions that knew about is and could come).

Which one is more significant?


cheers
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 12/11/2009 22:22

Plenty here folks, go mad

http://climatedebatedaily.com/
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 12/11/2009 22:27

Heres one for you Mike,

Number of Americans who believe in climate change drops, survey shows

Only 57% of Americans feel that the planet's atmosphere is warming, a fall from 77% two years ago


http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/oct/22/climate-change-us-pew-survey
Posted by: Vlasta

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 12/11/2009 23:06

Originally Posted By: windyrob
Originally Posted By: Mike Hauber
Originally Posted By: Vlasta
Mike
How would you and 97% of climate scientists know , that there is global warming ?



If the world is not warming then why are there so many posts on Watts Up With That trying to explain that the warming is really due to natural cycles?

Lol Mike!
There clearly was warming from 1980 till now, and there clearly was cooling from about 03 till recently. (I'm being generous and not counting the 98 nino)
As for what caused the warming (from 1980), that would clearly be the 4% reduction in low cloud cover which corresponds to 0.3deg of warming, which would seem to be about 80% by eyeball!


Yes there has been reduction in high cloud cover that partialy answers your question
I will try to be more specific this time . I have been trying to work out why the sceptics using ammunition as you descibed Mike. When I read some of the Plimers arguments I laughed . He is a sceptic we dont need to have.
Most scientists who are sceptics of AGW are out of work or retired.

Base for GISS and Hadcru anomoly is taken from those years when scientists thought an ice age was imminent so they needed proof and adjusted temps a bit lower ( 0.1-0.2) . Give it the 0.3 of "warming" ten years back or so till now and numbers add up. Then we see those graphs of catastrophic warming .
Every graph wee see or a scientist is using for his work is based on Hansen and the dog ate my data. NOAA is using for me uknown reason base period 1900 or so - 2006.
Nobody ever thought those graphs can be wrong ? Of course they did . Time will tell how long GISS and others will be able to get away with it . My crystal ball tells me a lot of ppl will be descredited and in jail .
Of topic completely . I won my work cover claim after 4 years . Reason ? . I never said a lie. If those guys will go in front of a jugde , it wont be hard to make a verdict
Posted by: Mike Hauber

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 13/11/2009 08:24

The UAH temperature measurement which is calculated by a climate skeptic, shows only 20% less warming then GISS. And most of that is due to warmer tempertures in UAH prior to 1992 when an instrument change was made. Since then UAH and GISS have had basiclly the same warming trend. Hansen's data and code is available to all - the criticisms is that it is confusing and not documented well enough. That is it was written by a tinkering scientists who never imagined that the code would be subject to detailed scrutiny.

In contrast Watts and his surface station project repeatedly claim to have proven the temperature record is worthless. He promised an analysis of this data when the survey was complete. The survey has been complete for months now, but no analysis. The reason why - the analysis of stations that are classified as good according to his survey shows exactly the same trend as the entire data set, and so he will not publish an analysis, and he will not retract his claim, but says the comparison is unfair because the complete data set is 'adjusted'. But that is exactly the point of the 'adjustment' - to correct for biases caused by UHI, and the comparison to the 'adjusted' figures simply proves that the adjustments are doing exactly what they are supposed to.

Accusation of corruption against climate scientists on temperature measurement issues is blatant hypocrosy in an issue where millions of lifes are at risk. It is as blatantly immoral as quacks in Africa accusing scientists of fudging medical data so they can sell AIDs cures that don't work.
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 13/11/2009 09:13

As I posted not so long ago, Mike, even Phil Jones has admitted that his original low UHI correction numbers that are used by the IPCC were too low.
Jones has recently used data from the urbanisation of China's rapidly expanding cities as the basis for his admission.
In the light of Jones refusal to release any data, algorithms or calculations on how his conclusions were reached, it makes the real scientific value of any of Jones work of little more value than that of the claims of an astrologer.

Perhaps if I were you, I would also take some care before just denigrating and slagging off Anthony Watts work on the US Surface station network even before he has released any papers and before you really have the slightest idea on what is in those papers.
At least we will be able to examine Watt's full calculations and data base unlike Jones, Briffa, Mann, Steig and etc and etc of that branch of the AGW astrologers.
You might just find that you have made a judgement about Watts, prior to the release of his data, that is little more than the rantings of any number of the more fixated warmistas who seem to leap to all sorts of conclusions about the perfidy of the skeptics.

And is your attitude rather coloured as unlike most of your pro AGW blogs, you can post your about your beliefs in AGW in Anthony Watts blog without censorship but I notice that your pro AGW arguments seem to regularly get shot down by the numerous highly qualified posters on Watt's site.
Posted by: Mike Hauber

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 13/11/2009 11:40

Phil works on HADCRUT, so any errors he made correcting for UHI do not affect GISS or UAH.

And where exactly did he admit that the UHI corrections were too low? The closest I can find is this paper which measures a UHI effect in China. Has anyone actually compared the UHI effect he measured with the UHI corrections included in HADCRUT or GISS? If no corrections were made for UHI then China is 2% of the world's area, and this error would introduce a false warming trend of 0.016 degrees per century.

Is this the best science behind the allegations that the temperature record is flawed and that climate scientists are crooks and should be put in jail??

And I am amused by your faith that Watts will eventually actually publish the data and make the results and calculations available. As GISS already has done, and Watts has had plenty of time to do, but has not as of yet done so.
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 13/11/2009 12:07

We may argue back and forth but ultimately the planet and perhaps the the sun as well will have the final say and all of our own personal beliefs will be proven right, wrong or just of no consequence to the overall scheme of things.
And there will be many who believe they are of high standing and who thought that they were going to remake the world in the image that they were beholden too, who will discover to their horror that their twisting of the truths will come back to haunt them.

I will respect those who are completely open with all their calculations and data which their peers from all disciplines can analyse without restrictions.
I do not trust in the least those who say "Trust me".
The world has just been brought to the edge of a massive financial disaster by just those types of people who said "trust me".
And we are going the same way with the completely unnecessary imposition of massive financial impost on our society to "mitigate" the so called carbon problem, not on the basis of falsifiable science, but on the basis of the word of a few individuals in the climate science world who have refused to release their data and who like the financial" wizards" of a couple of years ago are saying and demanding "trust me".
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 13/11/2009 17:37

The Economic Uses of Al Gore - Holman Jenkins JR, Wall Street Journal
Thursday, November 12th 2009, 1:52 PM EST

Last spring Tennessee Republican Rep. Marsha Blackburn asked Al Gore during a House hearing if his investments in green energy meant he would benefit personally from cap and trade.

"If you believe that the reason I have been working on this issue for 30 years is because of greed, you don't know me," Mr. Gore responded (and, yes, according to two reporters present, he sighed).

Mr. Gore is quite right that his arguments should be judged on their merits, not on his investments. He's wrong to think his investments are irrelevant, and, even more, that sincerity is dispositive of anything. Sincerity is no substitute for disinterestedness.

Here are a couple questions: When so much of his position and prestige are invested in a predicted climate crisis, is Mr. Gore likely to be open to contrary evidence? Is he likely to be particularly fastidious about whether proposed steps will actually have an effect on global warming if they also happen to benefit his investments?

http://climaterealists.com/index.php?id=4351
Posted by: BOM99

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 13/11/2009 19:39

I watched an interview with Al Gore on the ABC about a week or two ago and was suprised just how logicaly, calmly, down to earth and inteligently he spoke. He also realises that our excesive meat eating diet is also a problem for the environment, but he is not recomending we stop eating meat, just cut down a little. He understands all the problems with trying to cut down on CO2 output and the various things that can be done. In his response why a carbon trading scheme and not a carbon tax, the answer is quite obvious that all countries have different tax systems whereas a trading scheme can be implemented globaly like the markets, its the only thing that works accross borders. However the best approach is both a trading scheme and a carbon tax. He understands well that you should not put all your eggs in one basket and try many systems and methods including various forms of alternate energy.

Pumping carbon underground is one of the least desirable solutions of all, that is agreed to by Al Gore and many other scientists. For a start you need to burn an extra 30% coal to get the carbon underground which is a huge and criminal waste of energy. Coal has huge value in the chemical industry, plastics, drugs, technology and to just burn it all at an even greater rate for the sake of energy that is gone in a second is just plain stupidity and shortsightedness. Coal could be pulled appart into its components including clean gas for energy and give far better value.
Posted by: Petros

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 13/11/2009 21:09

Originally Posted By: snowmi
Coal has huge value in the chemical industry, plastics, drugs, technology and to just burn it all at an even greater rate for the sake of energy that is gone in a second is just plain stupidity and shortsightedness. Coal could be pulled appart into its components including clean gas for energy and give far better value.


Yet we in Australia are moving towards burn gas for the sake of energy. Vastly worse, a highly value added product placed into a less-than desirably effecient machine to create electricity, which is used mostly for (a less efficient means of...) - heating.
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 14/11/2009 11:05

Australian PM Rudd warns skeptics 'are too 'dangerous to ignore' and are 'holding the world to ransom' -- Climate Depot Responds

'Yes, we plead guilty to promoting 'inaction' -- 'Skeptics will proudly celebrate the collapse of Copenhagen Treaty'

Climate Depot Editorial

Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd spewed out a rhetorical barrage on climate skeptics worldwide. See: Australian PM warns skeptics 'are too 'dangerous to ignore' and are 'holding the world to ransom' – November 6, 2009. Also see: here and here for more coverage of Rudd's speech.

Climate Depot has undertaken a point by point rebuttal to Rudd's claims. The full text of Rudd's speech is available here.

Rudd Claim: Skeptics are “powerful enough to threaten a deal on global climate change both in Copenhagen and beyond.”

Climate Depot Response: Yes, skepticism, the foundation of science, is and always has been strong enough to derail lavishly funded and politically motivated science based on wildly speculative climate model “predictions” and distortions of past climate records. A “scientifically meaningless” domestic carbon trading or international treaties will not impact global climate in any detectable ways, but will have huge human impacts.




http://climatedepot.com/a/3689/Australia...re-holding-the-
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 14/11/2009 11:09

The unreasoning fearmongers

A few months ago, NSW Premier Nathan Rees labelled those sceptical about the climate change science as akin to Nazi appeasers in the 1930s. Last week at the Lowy Institute Prime Minister Kevin Rudd said that those same people are fear mongering, gambling with their children’s future. It’s a powerful allegation, full of emotion. It is also dishonest.

To be curious about the state of science, to ask questions of the orthodoxy, to suggest that we not rush ahead of other countries in a way that will punish the Australian economy is the antithesis of fear-mongering. It says let’s draw breath, put aside the wild hyperbole, ignore the growing group think, the cheap symbolism and think rationally about climate change. Those who predict the end of the world, those such as Al Gore who tell us sea levels will rise by six metres in by 2100, those such as Tim Flannery who say it’s now or never, telling us we have about 20 years to act on climate change or else place our future at risk of apocalyptic droughts, floods, war and famine. Here are the fear-mongers.


http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/janetalbrechtsen/index.php/theaustralian/comments/
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 14/11/2009 11:15

CSIRO moves to put gag on scientists
THE CSIRO has sought to secretly close a loophole that allows scientists to publish research and comment in their private capacity about politically sensitive issues.

Earlier this year, senior scientists used the loophole to give evidence to a Senate inquiry criticising the Rudd government's emissions targets. While the CSIRO has denied it has reviewed or changed its public comment policy, a confidential memo leaked to The Australian reveals the policy has been reviewed at the highest levels.

It is understood the memo was sent by three staff members on June 9, after they learned CSIRO chief executive Megan Clark and head of communications John Curran were reviewing the policy.

Sent to Dr Curran, the memo evaluated options for change, including the "risks" of preventing scientists from speaking out in their personal capacity. The memo warned CSIRO would receive "negative feedback" and leaks to the media if it tried to eliminate the "pressure valve" option of allowing scientists to speak out on contentious issues in their personal capacity.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nat...f-1225795565498
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 14/11/2009 11:24

Sign the Petition


http://www.barnabyjoyce.com.au/Issues/Petition/tabid/99/Default.aspx
Posted by: roves

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 14/11/2009 12:38

Petition proudly signed.
Posted by: Ijay

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 14/11/2009 13:19

Originally Posted By: roves
Petition proudly signed.


By me too.
Posted by: Lindsay Smail

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 14/11/2009 18:34

When a country's PM publicly berates those scientists who, for sound and logical reasons, don't follow his directions, something rings loud alarm bells within me. The man is becoming dangerously out of control.
Posted by: Anemoi

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 14/11/2009 21:32

Greenland ice cap melting faster than ever
http://www.bristol.ac.uk/news/2009/6659.html
12 November 2009

Satellite observations and a state-of-the art regional atmospheric model have independently confirmed that the Greenland ice sheet is loosing mass at an accelerating rate, reports a new study in Science.
This mass loss is equally distributed between increased iceberg production, driven by acceleration of Greenland’s fast-flowing outlet glaciers, and increased meltwater production at the ice sheet surface. Recent warm summers further accelerated the mass loss to 273 Gt per year (1 Gt is the mass of 1 cubic kilometre of water), in the period 2006-2008, which represents 0.75 mm of global sea level rise per year.

Professor Jonathan Bamber from the University of Bristol and an author on the paper said: “It is clear from these results that mass loss from Greenland has been accelerating since the late 1990s and the underlying causes suggest this trend is likely to continue in the near future. We have produced agreement between two totally independent estimates, giving us a lot of confidence in the numbers and our inferences about the processes”.

The Greenland ice sheet contains enough water to cause a global sea level rise of seven metres. Since 2000, the ice sheet has lost about 1500 Gt in total, representing on average a global sea level rise of about half a millimetre per year, or 5 mm since 2000.

At the same time that surface melting started to increase around 1996, snowfall on the ice sheet also increased at approximately the same rate, masking surface mass losses for nearly a decade. Moreover, a significant part of the additional meltwater refroze in the cold snowpack that covers the ice sheet. Without these moderating effects, post-1996 Greenland mass loss would have been double the amount of mass loss observed now.

Article
Partitioning Recent Greenland Mass Loss
Posted by: BOM99

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 14/11/2009 21:50

Interesting that the American Physical Society is openly questioning AGW and want their official position on AGW changed to one of cautious doubt. They see the late 20th Century warming to still fall within tolerance of natural climate change.
http://www.aps.org/publications/apsnews/200910/climate.cfm
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 14/11/2009 22:50

As renewable energy and hydrogen powered vehicles are being touted as one of the solutions to reducing the so called carbon problem, this article from the Uni of Tennessee about the generation of hydrogen from Algae using sunlight as the prime energy source for the conversion could be of considerable interest.
Found on Eureka Alert 12th Nov.
An explanatory image can also be found in the short article

Extracts from the Eureka Alert article below;

University of Tennessee at Knoxville
UT Knoxville and ORNL researchers turn algae into high-temperature hydrogen source

Platinum-catalyzed photosynthetic process creates high-yield sustainable source of hydrogen

KNOXVILLE -- In the quest to make hydrogen as a clean alternative fuel source, researchers have been stymied about how to create usable hydrogen that is clean and sustainable without relying on an intensive, high-energy process that outweighs the benefits of not using petroleum to power vehicles./

The team, led by Barry Bruce, a professor of biochemistry and cellular and molecular biology at UT Knoxville, found that the inner machinery of photosynthesis can be isolated from certain algae and, when coupled with a platinum catalyst, is able to produce a steady supply of hydrogen when exposed to light.

The findings are outlined in this week's issue of the journal Nature Nanotechnology./

"Biofuel as many people think of it now -- harvesting plants and converting their woody material into sugars which get distilled into combustible liquids -- probably cannot replace gasoline as a major source of fuel," said Bruce. "We found that our process is more direct and has the potential to create a much larger quantity of fuel using much less energy, which has a wide range of benefits."

A major benefit of Bruce's method is that it cuts out two key middlemen in the process of using plants' solar conversion abilities. The first middle man is the time required for a plant to capture solar energy, grow and reproduce, then die and eventually become fossil fuel. The second middle man is energy, in this case the substantial amount of energy required to cultivate, harvest and process plant material into biofuel. Bypassing these two options and directly using the plant or algae's built-in solar system to create clean fuel can be a major step forward.

Other scientists have studied the possibility of using photosynthesis as a hydrogen source, but have not yet found a way to make the reaction occur efficiently at the high temperatures that would exist in a large system designed to harness sunlight.

Bruce and his colleagues found that by starting with a thermophilic blue-green algae, which favors warmer temperatures, they could sustain the reaction at temperatures as high as 55 degrees C, or 131 degrees F. That is roughly the temperature in arid deserts with high solar irradiation, where the process would be most productive. They also found the process was more than 10 times more efficient as the temperature increased./
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 15/11/2009 09:00

Let's be consistent. The articles criticising the pressure on scientists from the government seeking to muzzle dissent are as much a cause for concern as other articles attacking scientists for daring to suggest AGW is real when the wise farmers and people in the street know better.

The truth is that scoundrels to the left, and scoundrels to the right, there remains under fire from both directions, an extensive body of research that currently suggests in compelling manner that the A in AGW is significant. Short of banning the research and 're-educating the scientists' this isn't going to change, nor are the impacts on our lives.
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 15/11/2009 10:42

Interesting interview with Ian Plimer


http://www.4bc.com.au/displayPopUpPlayerAction.action?&url=http://media.mytalk.com.au/4bc/podcasts/ianplimer.mp3


http://www.4bc.com.au/climate
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 15/11/2009 20:52

And here's another for you to peruse Mike!!!!

British voters unsure on climate change
LONDON, Nov. 14 (UPI) -- Fewer than half of British voters believe human activity is responsible for global warming, a poll released Saturday by The Times of London said.

Only 41 percent of those surveyed said they think climate change is underway and human activity is to blame, while 32 percent said they were unsure. Another 15 percent say the world is not getting warmer, while 8 percent said climate change is environmentalist propaganda.

Conservative voters are less likely to say human activity is responsible for climate change, with 38 percent agreeing compared with 45 percent of Labor voters and 47 percent of Liberal Democrats.

Doubt about climate change is a problem for the Labor government, which plans to seek tax increases to pay for cuts in British emissions of greenhouse gases. The government has goals of a 34 percent reduction by 2020 and 80 percent by 2050.

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/Internationa...26221258251028/
Posted by: Vlasta

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 16/11/2009 00:10

Originally Posted By: Mike Hauber
The UAH temperature measurement which is calculated by a climate skeptic, shows only 20% less warming then GISS. And most of that is due to warmer tempertures in UAH prior to 1992 when an instrument change was made. Since then UAH and GISS have had basiclly the same warming trend. Hansen's data and code is available to all - the criticisms is that it is confusing and not documented well enough. That is it was written by a tinkering scientists who never imagined that the code would be subject to detailed scrutiny.


In contrast Watts and his surface station project repeatedly claim to have proven the temperature record is worthless. He promised an analysis of this data when the survey was complete. The survey has been complete for months now, but no analysis. The reason why - the analysis of stations that are classified as good according to his survey shows exactly the same trend as the entire data set, and so he will not publish an analysis, and he will not retract his claim, but says the comparison is unfair because the complete data set is 'adjusted'. But that is exactly the point of the 'adjustment' - to correct for biases caused by UHI, and the comparison to the 'adjusted' figures simply proves that the adjustments are doing exactly what they are supposed to.

Accusation of corruption against climate scientists on temperature measurement issues is blatant hypocrosy in an issue where millions of lifes are at risk. It is as blatantly immoral as quacks in Africa accusing scientists of fudging medical data so they can sell AIDs cures that don't work.

I didnt forget Mike smile
I wouldnt call R Spencer a sceptic , just a scientist who has diffrent beliefs. One thing I dont understand ( or he doesnt want to say yet) why there isnt a UHA graph which shows all temperatures from the first channel to the last one .
I mean if you combine them , there would be no or little warming in entire atmosphere.Currently what we see is only channel 5 ( dont shoot me down now , but I think its about 3000m),
On link I will post later you can see a lot of graphs , even A Watts is metioned and the heavyweights P Jones , NCDC and more .
I did read your explanation to adjustments .
What adjustment would you recomend for just one of many similar in US ? thats on page 6 . Imagine someone is having a hamburger in winter and letting engine running 10m from the station ( I completely omiting fact , that passing cars generate heat as well)
Siply UHI adjustments are not big enough.

Best for last, NOAA has stopped adjusting UHI completely .
See the graph 'change after removal of UHI'
I would love to see a graph of stations around the world which are clearly in the midle of nowhere , how much warming there is . Probably none or very little .
And as you say about accusation and corruption about climate scientists on temperatures. I hope God will be lenient for their wrong beliefs

here is the link
http://icecap.us/images/uploads/NOAAMAY.pdf

Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 16/11/2009 07:47

REUTERS;
World leaders back delay to final climate deal

SINGAPORE (Reuters) - U.S. President Barack Obama and other world leaders Sunday supported delaying a legally binding climate pact until 2010 or even later, under a compromise deal for next month's Copenhagen summit.

"Given the time factor and the situation of individual countries we must, in the coming weeks, focus on what is possible and not let ourselves be distracted by what is not possible," Danish Prime Minister Lars Lokke Rasmussen told the leaders.
Posted by: Mike Hauber

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 16/11/2009 10:36

Originally Posted By: Simmosturf
And here's another for you to peruse Mike!!!!

British voters unsure on climate change
LONDON, Nov. 14 (UPI) -- Fewer than half of British voters believe human activity is responsible for global warming, a poll released Saturday by The Times of London said.

Only 41 percent of those surveyed said they think climate change is underway and human activity is to blame, while 32 percent said they were unsure. Another 15 percent say the world is not getting warmer, while 8 percent said climate change is environmentalist propaganda.

Conservative voters are less likely to say human activity is responsible for climate change, with 38 percent agreeing compared with 45 percent of Labor voters and 47 percent of Liberal Democrats.

Doubt about climate change is a problem for the Labor government, which plans to seek tax increases to pay for cuts in British emissions of greenhouse gases. The government has goals of a 34 percent reduction by 2020 and 80 percent by 2050.

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/Internationa...26221258251028/


The original topic was petitions from scientists, and how such petitions are represented as being a significant number of scientists, when in reality it is only a tiny percentage of scientists that reject climate change. I'm still confident that I'm correct on that point, even if I am a little suprised that you found a survey showing less than 50% support among the public for climate change. At least the numbers that think the world is not warming, or that climate change is environmentalist propoganda are small enough to label those groups as 'fringe'.
Posted by: Mike Hauber

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 16/11/2009 11:31

An interesting early study on the link between Co2 and warming. Interesting to note that even in 1938 scientists had enough of a handle on Co2 warming to note that the warming in the Arctic during that period was probably more than could be explained by Co2 alone.

Link
Posted by: Arnost

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 16/11/2009 18:21

The CLOUD experiment at CERN looks like it will happen.

CLOUD has finished its assembly phase
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 16/11/2009 20:00

Quite remarkable just how little comment there is on collapse of the Copenhagen climate conference by the MSM such as the warmista propoganda organisations like the BBC or even the ABC.
Especially considering the buildup that Copenhagen was getting.
Now the lack of any thing of any substance from Copenhagen has moved further upstream to the APEC conference in Singapore.

From the BBC ;
Quote:
Apec leaders drop climate target

Leaders remain split on specifying targets
World leaders meeting in Singapore have said it will not be possible to reach a climate change deal ahead of next month's UN conference in Denmark.
After a two-day Asia-Pacific summit, they vowed to work towards an "ambitious outcome" in Copenhagen.
But the group dropped a target to halve greenhouse gas emissions by 2050, which was outlined in an earlier draft.
Leaders also vowed to pursue a new strategy for growth after the world's worst economic crisis in decades.


There is also quite a sudden shift in the subjects of the news reporting from the MSM at Singapore; ie; Iran, Strategic Arms reduction with Russia, Chinese trade disputes and etc and the big elephant in the room, the Global Financial Crisis and the clean up that will takes years to get back to a more balanced financial system.
Then maybe Obama and his advisers might just be a tad concerned as are the Europeans that their economies are still running on empty and that almost all of the entire claimed recovery is from Governments spending tax payers money at a fantastically lavish rate.
Private enterprise apparently so far has refused to be involved in any big way in the recovery.

Shades of crash of 1929 and then the Recovery and then the real crash that came in 1932 and almost destroyed the advanced economies of the world of that time.
And those who lived through those Great Depression times were forever scarred.

Maybe, just maybe there is the odd political leader heaving a very private and very huge sigh of relief that Copenhagen has fallen over and he / she will not have to answer to their constituents but can also blame the lack of any further progress on the nefarious foreigners who refused to co-operate at Copenhagen.
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 17/11/2009 06:19

ROM,

Stories about the debacle appear high on the lists of 'most read stories' and are prominently displayed. Which papers or radio broadcasts are ignoring it?

And there is no need to reference Obama. Nor venture incredible summations about the GFC, such as your observation that private industry is not being involved in the recovery. Perhaps you jest.

By introducing judgements about the financial and political situation you are dragging this thread into the areas of social or cultural preferences that cannot be logically connected to the science of AGW.

Maybe attention in the media will now shift to the hard issues involved in the science which is poorly understood by all sides in the popular debate. Less clowns,fewer carpetbaggers and one might hope more serious research and investment in dealing with this human assisted disequilibrium might be the result.
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 17/11/2009 07:04

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/11/16/monckton-climate-change-video-goes-viral/#more-12871
Here is Monckton's speech(s) on Copenhagen. I have not even seen myself yet as I am very busy,
but will look later today when I have time...And don't blame me for the contents, I am just posting a speech
I did not write it, & I don't even know what is in it yet...Just thought that all may be interested
to see and it is topical.
Posted by: Severely Tall

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 17/11/2009 07:31

Heres an interesting little piece which has some information about certain "references" claimed to be in contradiction to AGW which has been circulating:
http://greenfyre.wordpress.com/2009/11/15/450-more-lies-from-the-climate-change-deniers/

While I don't agree with his lumping of people into a category of denialism (see my earlier post) and perhaps is a little nasty with the terms he raises some rather important point about the quality of "scientific" material being referenced by sites such as 'Watts up with That?'
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 17/11/2009 10:55

A lot of you may already know that CERN's CLOUD experiment is about to fire up.

For more info, "The Register"

The CLOUD experiment is to verify or otherwise, Svensmark's theory's that the level of galactic cosmic rays striking the Earth's upper atmosphere is the prime candidate for the changes in global cloud cover.
The theory being that cloud formation is triggered when the products or debris of the cosmic ray collisions high in the Earth's atmosphere filter down to the lower levels and then act as nuclei which triggers water droplet formation which then goes on condense into larger droplets which in turn form clouds.
Clouds, particularly lower atmosphere clouds have a high albedo or reflecting ability which reflects a lot of solar energy back into space which in turn means less absorption of the solar heat energy by the land and oceans and so clouds have an overall cooling effect.
Some heat is also trapped beneath clouds but the high albedo of clouds outweighs this heat trapping effect.

It is believed and has been modelled that as little as 2% or 3% change in global cloud cover can account for all of the global temperature changes.
Svensmark postulates that as the solar magnetic fields decline during a solar minimum and so far this is exactly what is continuing to happen with sunspots, the end results of solar magnetic field activity, predicted to be almost undetectable by 2015 if the current magnetic field fall off continues, then greater numbers of galactic origin cosmic rays will penetrate deeper into the solar system with more hits on the Earth's atmosphere resulting in significantly more resulting cloud cover and the resulting cooling of global temperatures.
The Finnish Oulu cosmic ray measuring station results verify that the level of galactic cosmic rays are steadily increasing as the solar magnetic field continues it's decline.

The converse is also true.
For the last 4 or 5 solar cycles up until the end of cycle 23, the sun has probably had the highest levels of activity for many centuries and consequently a very strong magnetic field which has deflected galactic origin cosmic rays away from the solar system.
With a lower level of cosmic rays striking our upper atmosphere and less nuclei for cloud droplet condensation therefore less global cloud cover, more solar energy was allowed to penetrate to the global surface and was absorbed by the land and ocean surfaces.
This would account for the rising global temperatures of the last 50 years.

With the sun seemingly now heading toards a completely unforecast long minimum in activity the situation of global warming may well be reversed into a long term cooling which current global temperatures and anomalies seem to be indicating is possibly already occurring.

CERN has sufficient faith in Svenmark's theories that it is prepared to devote considerable resources to check the validity of the theory.
If Svensmark's theories are proven then the very simplistic arguments for global warming based solely on some very suspect modeling of the global climate which modeling in turn is based solely on the positive feedbacks from a very minor essential to life gas CO2 as the one and prime culprit for any global warming, will essentially be null and void.
Posted by: Arnost

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 17/11/2009 11:32

This is one of the stories that I'm following. We all know that (esp. the Victorian) power generators are in deep trouble if the ETS is passed. Rob Gottleibsen explains.
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 17/11/2009 13:21

To add to Arnost's comments, a visit to Business Spectator, at bussinessspectator.com.au will provide detailed and clinical commentary by various authors on why the ETS is bad without a single attempt at dragging unrelated issues into frame. However it provides nearly zero reporting or analysis of the science. The site is an economics and business resource, not a science forum.

Disclosure: I contribute to Crikey.com.au which some stakeholders in common with those in Business Spectator.
Posted by: Beltane

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 17/11/2009 14:05

An interesting report from one of the current oldest life forms:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18161-climate-change-gives-ancient-trees-growth-spurt.html
Posted by: Arnost

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 17/11/2009 15:53

Place holder - Link to pdf of above article:
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2009/11/13/0903029106.full.pdf+html
Posted by: windyrob

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 17/11/2009 16:40

Originally Posted By: Severely Tall
Heres an interesting little piece which has some information about certain "references" claimed to be in contradiction to AGW which has been circulating:
http://greenfyre.wordpress.com/2009/11/15/450-more-lies-from-the-climate-change-deniers/

While I don't agree with his lumping of people into a category of denialism (see my earlier post) and perhaps is a little nasty with the terms he raises some rather important point about the quality of "scientific" material being referenced by sites such as 'Watts up with That?'

LOL ST!
That crazy dude refutes those papers by saying "Real climate comments prove their wrong"
I'll happily let others decide the scientific validity of real climate for themselves.
That being said i'm not a fan of insulting commentary on either side.
One of my fav sites is climate skeptic because the author seems to keep a cool and professional manner.

I consider his article titled " The Plug " a must read for everyone, as it exposes the tricks modellers use to create accurate hindcasts while using an impossibly high feedback factors.
Cheers
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 18/11/2009 07:44

Climate Sceptics TV ad campaign will be starting next Wed or Thursday. They will be viewable in Qld, NSW, ACT and Vic up till 23rd Nov before the ETS vote. If they inspire you and you want to see more go to air in a few weeks time, please feel free to donate towards TV ad campaign. (donate online or with a cheque to PO box 721, Mt Gambier SA 5290)
The executive of our group sees TV as the "high ground" (in battle terms) and to win a war is easiest done by winning the battle in the "high ground" (e.g. where the battle is visible to the most people).

http://www.climatesceptics.com.au/
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 18/11/2009 12:38

Academic rejects Murray carbon claims

A Newcastle University professor says his research shows it is a myth carbon emissions are causing higher temperatures, blamed for the Murray-Darling catchment drying up.

Newcastle University Associate Professor Stewart Franks is the author of a paper due to be published in the American journal Geophysical Research Letters.

He says his research has found elevated temperatures in the Murray-Darling catchment are caused by a combination of natural factors associated with drought and not carbon emissions.

He also questions theories on evaporation.

"The claims that have been made are that higher temperatures have led to higher evaporation," he said.

"Our studies have shown that clearly isn't the case and in fact the claim that higher temperatures cause higher evaporation is actually against the known physics of evaporation."

Professor Franks says claims about increased evaporation rates and climate change impacts on the Murray-Darling Basin are entirely false.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/11/18/2746110.htm
Posted by: Arnost

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 18/11/2009 14:22

Originally Posted By: Beltane
An interesting report from one of the current oldest life forms:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18161-climate-change-gives-ancient-trees-growth-spurt.html


The paper's findings are that the western bristlecone pines recent growth has markedly increased — ring widths have been higher than in previous decades. Real Climate now has a post on this.
Quote:
Because of their longevity and growth at high elevations (where the growth of trees is generally known to be limited by temperature) bristlecone pines have been of particular interest to dendroclimatologists.

Quote:
...ecological studies carried out at treeline sites all over the world show that temperature imposes a critical limitation on the ability of trees to produce new tissue...

Quote:
The recent increase in ring widths is seen in trees at the upper forest border at sites hundreds of km away (even when the treelines there were at lower elevations)—but not in trees below the upper forest border. Below the zone closest to treeline, wide rings are formed in cool, wet years, and narrow rings in warm, dry years, and trees from this lower zone do not show the 20th century growth surge...

Quote:
Salzer et al’s study shows that there is no significant difference in their results when the data are divided into two classes—strip bark and non-strip-bark cases –when the raw unstandardized data are compared. So that particular issue has apparently had people barking up the wrong tree…

hmmm...

But I want to pick up on the wide rings are formed in cool, wet years, and narrow rings in warm, dry years (my italics). There are two other combinations cool, dry years, and wet, warm years. What happens to tree rings then – and esp. at the treeline? I spent hours last night trawling through bits and pieces on this – nothing conclusive (maybe will post up the links etc later). But…
Previous research has looked into millennial trends in precipitation using just these proxies. For example from Graumlich et al, (at least in 1995) it seems well established that foxtails and bristlecones respond to precipitation. The comments at Real Climate crow that there was no MWP – however from Graumlich et al, there was a drought in the area - maybe this is a factor…?

Analysis of the recent precipitation in western US shows that there has been an increase over the last 50 years (at least to 1998) see for example Karl et al. I have found three COOP stations in the White Mountains which (unfortunately) have data only for 25 years to 1980’s (but I know there is a University research station there and I’m hoping to get actual temps and precipitation data.

The study shows in glorious detail the divergence problem in modern dendochronology as the temperatures in the sample area (Calif / Nevada border) have not increased substantially in the latter part of last century allowing explanation for the 20th Century surge. From LaDochy et al

LaDochy also suggests that:
Quote:
Strong correlations between temperatures and Pacific sea surface temperatures (SSTs) particularly Pacific Decadal Oscillation (PDO) values, also account for temperature variability throughout the state.


Still digging – but comments welcome.

Sources:
Graumlich et al: “Multimillennial records of climatic variation in the Sierra Nevada inferred from tree rings” LJ Graumlich, AH Lloyd, MK Hughes in Bulletin of the Ecological Society of America Jun 1995 (see middle article here)
Karl et al: “Secular Trends of Precipitation Amount, Frequency, and Intensity in the United States” Thomas R. Karl and Richard W. Knight in the Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society back in October 1998 (see here
LaDochy et al: “[i]Recent California climate variability: spatial and temporal patterns in temperature trends[i]”. LaDochy, S., Medina, R. and Patzert, W. 2007. Climate Research 33: 159-169. (no link – but see [url= http://ncwatch.typepad.com/media/2007/11/index.html]here[/url]).
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 19/11/2009 09:02

Not exactly climate but more weather orientated but with possibly some quite interesting connotations for the future of the Climate Change / AGW ideology.

Everybody who has even given a moments thought to this will know that what we personally are experiencing at the moment has a profound effect on what we believe is the situation elsewhere as well.
It takes a lot of effort when we are being heavily influenced by local weather conditions, particularly the more extreme weather conditions, to adopt an impartial and very wide over all view of weather and climate events in other areas around the world.
Politicians, despite the many doubts to the contrary are supposedly human and experience the same emotions as us far more humble members of the proletariat.

So Joseph D' Aleo's forecasts of "Stratospheric Warming Beginning – if it...US and Europe" could have some very big if unintended consequences for the Copenhagen conference starting on the 6th December.
If the intense cold period over Europe as forecast in D'Aleo's article eventuates, the personal experiences of the politicians and immense numbers of NGO's and UN bureaucratic parasitic hanger on's may well influence the outcomes of Copenhagen in subtle ways that will take some time to recognise.
Even more so if the cold weather conditions shuts down some of Europe's transport systems and / or airline flight systems.

Yes! we live in interesting times.
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 19/11/2009 10:31

"Russian ship carrying tourists is stuck in Antarctic ice"

Umm! But this is getting into our southern summer and that ice is supposed to be receding and melting and global temps are supposed to be rising so how come the Russian's who are arguably the most experienced operators of Ice Breakers in the world get caught well into the floating icepack in the Antarctic and in mid November at that?
Maybe they just no longer have any experience in Ice Breaking as all that Arctic Ice north of Russia is apparently fast disappearing if you want to believe some of the propaganda floating around here and elsewhere.
Posted by: Bobman

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 19/11/2009 11:00

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/world-t...o-1225799613986

Quote:
THE world is spinning toward a catastrophic worst case climate change scenario with temperatures now certain to rise by 6 degrees by the end of the century.

That's the view of a leading international team of scientists who yesterday predicted the change in climate would now certainly have irreversible consequences rendering large parts of the globe inhabitable.

The scenario was first made public by the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change in 2007 but then it was made only as a worst case scenario.

But according to Professor Corinne Le Quere from the British Antarctic Survey and East Anglia University, that worst case was now all but inevitable.

"We're at the top of the IPCC scenario," she told Nature Geoscience.

Her study - backed by 31 top researchers from seven countries including Australia involved in the Global Carbon Project - found there had been a 29 per cent rise in global CO2 emissions from fossil fuels between 2000 and 2008, with an annual increase of 3 per cent compared with 1 per cent the previous eight years.

Start of sidebar. Skip to end of sidebar.

End of sidebar. Return to start of sidebar.

She said there was no doubt carbon dioxide emissions from transport and industry and deforestation were squarely to blame for warming the atmosphere which would be 6 per cent higher around the world including near the poles; the EU had hoped to keep the rise to 2 per cent.

Prof Le Quere said next month's UN climate conference in Copenhagen had to come out with a clear and decisive global policy to stabilize temperatures.

"If the agreement is too weak or the commitments not respected, it is not 2.5 degrees or 3 degrees we will get it's 5 degrees or 6 degrees, that is the path we're on," she said.

Scientists have found there was now significant evidence to show for the first time the Earth's natural ability to absorb man-made carbon dioxide released into the air had failed.

Both the US and China, the world's biggest carbon emitters, have pledged to strike an accord for emission-reduction targets for rich nations.
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 19/11/2009 11:04

Now it is...Fight climate change with condoms!!!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/18/fight-climate-change-with_n_361936.html
Posted by: Rime

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 19/11/2009 12:23

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

'Women shoulder burden of climate change'

WOMEN are more vulnerable to climate change than men and will continue to bear the brunt of extreme weather conditions unless more is done to educate and empower them, a report has found.
The State of World Population 2009 report, released by the United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA) today, says women have been overlooked in discussions on how to combat rising seas, drought and melting glaciers.

Full article:
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,26370531-5003402,00.html
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

This is truly deserving of the 'dumbo' insults. poke
Posted by: Vlasta

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 19/11/2009 13:17

I enjoy reading what mums and dads have to say to those prediction of 6C warming. As they have absolutly no time to read no more but one alarmist's article per month. No wonder they believe it as we should trust our scientists.
As teckert said in the other thread , one cant change others beliefs, no matter how wrong they are
Posted by: SBT

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 19/11/2009 15:24

http://www.news.com.au/business/story/0,27753,26371745-31037,00.html another slant by Australias leading GW Skeptic, tend to agree with him actually.

Ooh we can't use nuclear power because it is bad yet on the other hand we haven't any viable other methods of creating power which is sustainable. Rock and a hard place secenario.
Posted by: Grant

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 19/11/2009 15:46

Originally Posted By: Simmosturf
Academic rejects Murray carbon claims

A Newcastle University professor says his research shows it is a myth carbon emissions are causing higher temperatures, blamed for the Murray-Darling catchment drying up.

Newcastle University Associate Professor Stewart Franks is the author of a paper due to be published in the American journal Geophysical Research Letters.

He says his research has found elevated temperatures in the Murray-Darling catchment are caused by a combination of natural factors associated with drought and not carbon emissions.

He also questions theories on evaporation.

"The claims that have been made are that higher temperatures have led to higher evaporation," he said.

"Our studies have shown that clearly isn't the case and in fact the claim that higher temperatures cause higher evaporation is actually against the known physics of evaporation."

Professor Franks says claims about increased evaporation rates and climate change impacts on the Murray-Darling Basin are entirely false.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/11/18/2746110.htm


Just a slight addition to this story as found in our local paper The Herald today.

Quote:
"During the drought, when soil moisture is low, less of the sun's radiant energy goes into evaporation and more goes into the heating of the atmosphere, which causes higher temperatures," Professor Franks said.


Sounds feasible to me! If the full article goes up I will post it along with the link.
Posted by: Arnost

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 19/11/2009 18:36

Quote:
Latest research has shown that emissions of CO2 will need to be reduced close to zero by the end of this century if a rise in the mean global temperature beyond 2 °C is to be avoided. A temperature rise of no more than 2 °C is widely acknowledged as the ‘safe’ level to avoid dangerous climate change.

...

This research, revealed at ‘ENSEMBLES – A changing climate in Europe’ symposium at the Met Office in Exeter, is the culmination of five years of research from 66 institutes across Europe, led by the Met Office Hadley Centre and funded by the European Commission.


Met Office News release
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 20/11/2009 10:05

"Published in the October 2009 issue of “Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society” (BAMS), a new survey indicates that a significant number of professional meteorologists doubt that manmade sources of greenhouse gases are the cause of global warming. The survey was vetted by an advi­sory board of climate experts, including representatives from NOAA, the NWS, UCAR, the Environmental Protection Agency, the Pew Center for Global Climate Change, and many members of the AMS.

Meteorologists’ climate change survey results:
· When asked about the UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change’s (IPCC) statement that “Most of the warming since 1950 is very likely human-induced,” a full 50% either disagreed or strongly disagreed. 25% were neutral and only 24% said they agreed or strongly agreed;
· 52% of the meteorologists disagreed with the statement that “Global climate models are reliable in their projections for a warming of the planet.” Only 19% agreed with the statement;
· Almost a third of respondents agreed (19%) or strongly agreed (10%) that “global warm­ing is a scam”;
· When the meteorologists were asked to identify the “greatest obstacle to reporting on climate change,” their top answer (41%) was “too much scientific uncertainty.”
http://www.examiner.com/x-3089-LA-Ecopolitics-Examiner~y2009m11d19-Meteorologists-Climate-Change-Survey
Posted by: ant

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 20/11/2009 10:51

Story in the fairfax press today about massive water loss in teh Murray/Darling basin.. not just surface water, but groundwater.
http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/rethinking...?skin=text-only
Posted by: marakai

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 20/11/2009 13:35

this could be intertesting.


November 19, 2009
AGW Cat is out of the bag -- CRU has been hacked

Russ Steele

This just in from Anthony Watts at Watts Up With That:

Breaking News Story: Hadley CRU has apparently been hacked – hundreds of files released.

The details on this are still sketchy, we’ll probably never know what went on. But it appears that Hadley Climate Research Unit has been hacked and many many files have been released by the hacker or person unknown.

An unknown person put postings on some climate skeptic websites that advertsied an FTP file on a Russian FTP server, here is the message that was placed on the Air Vent today:

We feel that climate science is, in the current situation, too important to be kept under wraps.

We hereby release a random selection of correspondence, code, and documents.

The file was large, about 61 megabytes, containing hundreds of files.
It contained data, code, and emails from Phil Jones at CRU to and from many people.

I’ve seen the file, it appears to be genuine and from CRU. Others who have seen it concur- it appears genuine. There are so many files it appears unlikely that it is a hoax. The effort would be too great.

http://ncwatch.typepad.com/media/2009/11/agw-cat-is-out-of-the-bag-cru-has-been-hacked.html
Posted by: Vlasta

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 20/11/2009 14:53

I have been following the CRU saga since it begun.
P. Jones

I wont give you the data coz you try to find there is something wrong with it
Then
I dont have the data coz my dog ate them


I think the storm will be bigger than in a tea cup .
Also heard that CRU is going private (unconfirmed)
If that happens one wont find a car park attendant job in whole England LOL

Iam sure that someone will even find the poo
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 20/11/2009 16:42

The skeptic blog world [ WUWT & Climate Audit plus, plus! ] is going ballistic over the release of some 61 megabytes of e-mails and information from the innards of HADCRU.
The veracity of this information still has to be checked but there are probably hundreds of down loads of these files currently taking place so that the files will be gone over with a very fine tooth comb by some very switched on individuals and i suspect some very switched on climate scientists who just may be compromised and will be cleaning the path for a quick exit via the back door or just maybe saying to themselves; Just what I expected but they shut me up so I'm going to take my chance and fix these guys but good.

Some of the e-mails between members of the Team that have so far been published reveal just plain blatant frauds in doctoring information.
Much, much more will come out of this hacker's or whistle blower's release and it is starting to appear from a number of e-mails released so far that in many cases where manipulation of the data was carried out to enhance the case for AGW, Jones, Mann, Briffa, Schmidt and etc and etc of the Team, show themselves to be of very doubtful personal scientific integrity.

There is quite a debate on the probable source that released these files.
It could be Russian hackers or a strong likely hood is that a disgruntled employee or a whistle blower who has just finally got sick of the type of activities that passed for science at HADCRU decided to pull the pin and blow the whole thing wide open.

And apparently the AGW touting Real Climate run by Gavin Schmidt is dead for the last few hours.
There might be a very, very long moderation queue at RC but no worries, Jones has volunteered in the past to help Schmidt to keep the more obnoxious questions and questioners from asking some un-needed probing questions.



There is also a possible shift about to be revealed to the world where the emphasis on CO2 as the big culprit in Global Warming will be quietly sidelined and a set of new nasties will appear on the climate change horizon that will, we will be excitedly informed by a carefully co-ordinated press campaign, are far more potent global warmers than CO2 and have nasty names like fluorine associated with them with all the connotations that implies;
Quote:
chemicals such as chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs), hydrofluorocarbons (HFCs), perfluorocarbons (PFCs), and sulfur and nitrogen fluorides stood out in their warming potential because of their efficiency to trap radiation in the atmospheric window.

More from " Science Daily".

This sort of switch when trouble brews for the promoters of an environmental product that the public will no longer swallow is quite typical of the switch strategies followed by George Soros's somewhat notorious Fenton Communications that specialises in organising propaganda strategies for a very wide array of radical green cults.
Soros doesn't take kindly to the idea that multi millions of dollars will cease flowing into his coffers by way of his interests in carbon trading companies so he adopts a new strategy that is intended to frighten the herd even more and the dollars will just keep coming as he gets in on the ground floor with the forecast of the world's largest traded commodity in 2015 being Hot Air aka Carbon Trading
Posted by: Rime

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 20/11/2009 18:41

Hi ROM,

I have just been reading about these supposedly hacked documents of the Hadley CRU that are now on the web. It does appear that the ZIP file containing all these documents is no longer available for download.

If the information is true, then it is very damning and it exposes some of the worse cases of unethical science to date. However, tread carefully as it could all be a prank.

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/11/19/br...files-released/

http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=7801#comments

http://rankexploits.com/musings/2009/real-files-or-fake/
Posted by: BOM99

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 20/11/2009 18:46

Might be worth posting this link here as well.....

http://www.nsf.gov/news/news_summ.jsp?cntn_id=115905&WT.mc_id=USNSF_51

Its not just Australia breaking records
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 20/11/2009 19:14

Yep! a constant refrain Rime, tread lightly and a fully justified attitude but the WUWT commentariat got more and more positive that it is the genuine article as they had time to do a bit of preliminary analysis and a bit of confirmatory info came in from science contacts who had business with HADCRU.

OK, now completely off topic!
As there are some very smart and savvy techo orientated guys on this forum, here is the backdoor web page portal for a real ongoing insiders look at the operations of the CERN LHC collider.
Apparently the web sites at CERN are very mixed up so a very keen amateur watcher of the LHC [ Large Hadron Collider ] called Chris Stephens has created a LHC portal .
Even a couple of divisions of the LHC have linked to this portal as the easiest way to get around the CERN sites.
In the information stakes the portal apparently is way ahead of the usual MSM simplistic guff that is handed out in the press releases.
That fabulous diagram on the opening page is a simulation of the detection of a Black Hole in the ATLAS detector.
Posted by: marakai

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 20/11/2009 19:23

Originally Posted By: Rime
Hi ROM,

I have just been reading about these supposedly hacked documents of the Hadley CRU that are now on the web. It does appear that the ZIP file containing all these documents is no longer available for download.

If the information is true, then it is very damning and it exposes some of the worse cases of unethical science to date. However, tread carefully as it could all be a prank.

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/11/19/br...files-released/

http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=7801#comments

http://rankexploits.com/musings/2009/real-files-or-fake/



I found a link to it and downloaded it, some interesting reading

heres a little taste.

Michael Mann wrote:

Kevin, that's an interesting point. As the plot from Gavin I sent shows, we can easily
account for the observed surface cooling in terms of the natural variability seen in
the CMIP3 ensemble (i.e. the observed cold dip falls well within it). So in that sense,
we can "explain" it. But this raises the interesting question, is there something going
on here w/ the energy & radiation budget which is inconsistent with the modes of
internal variability that leads to similar temporary cooling periods within the models.
I'm not sure that this has been addressed--has it?

m

On Oct 14, 2009, at 10:17 AM, Kevin Trenberth wrote:

Hi Tom
How come you do not agree with a statement that says we are no where close to knowing where
energy is going or whether clouds are changing to make the planet brighter. We are not
close to balancing the energy budget. The fact that we can not account for what is
happening in the climate system makes any consideration of geoengineering quite hopeless as
we will never be able to tell if it is successful or not! It is a travesty!
Kevin
Tom Wigley wrote:

Dear all,

At the risk of overload, here are some notes of mine on the recent

lack of warming. I look at this in two ways. The first is to look at

the difference between the observed and expected anthropogenic trend relative to the pdf
for unforced variability. The second is to remove ENSO, volcanoes and TSI variations
from the observed data.

Both methods show that what we are seeing is not unusual. The second

method leaves a significant warming over the past decade.

These sums complement Kevin's energy work.

Kevin says ... "The fact is that we can't account for the lack of warming at the moment
and it is a travesty that we can't". I do not

agree with this.

wether it real or not time will tell, a lot of work went into it if it is fake.
Posted by: Vlasta

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 20/11/2009 19:45

Fake or not . Lets start new thread.
ROM ? marakai? Just give it a proper topic . Not the dog ate the data , nor end of CRU lol. So moderators are happy
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 21/11/2009 06:51

Climate Change Gasbags Want to Shame You

In the New Scientist magazine, the writers argue that your personal carbon footprint should be made public because knowledge of your misdeeds might change your ways. They ask: "Would you want your neighbors, friends or colleagues to think of you as a free rider, harming the environment while benefiting from the restraint of others?"

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,575726,00.html
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 21/11/2009 14:41

Terra Daily is carrying this story on oceanic carbon uptakes.

Fairly unsettling reading. Neveretheless, perhaps the reduced ice coverage in the arctic seas will moderate the issue by exposing more cold water to the atmosphere and picking up some of the carbon load. Or not! Terra Daily: Oceanic carbon uptake may be slowing
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 21/11/2009 15:10

As there have been a number of posts and some carefully selected graphs on this forum about how Global Warming is continuing it's ever upward trend and how any slow down is well within the parameters set by the IPCC [ a claimed trend that is just a little suspect to say the very least in view of the last few days developments ] and how wrong and really ignorant the Skeptics are to claim that the warming has stopped, here is another viewpoint from the centre of the global warming beliefs, Europe, including comments from a highly regarded European climate scientist, Mojib Latif.

From the German "Spiegel Online International"

"Climatologists Baffled by Global Warming Time-Out"

Quote:

Otherwise, however, not much is happening with global warming at the moment. The Earth's average temperatures have stopped climbing since the beginning of the millennium, and it even looks as though global warming could come to a standstill this year.


Quote:

The planet's temperature curve rose sharply for almost 30 years, as global temperatures increased by an average of 0.7 degrees Celsius (1.25 degrees Fahrenheit) from the 1970s to the late 1990s. "At present, however, the warming is taking a break," confirms meteorologist Mojib Latif of the Leibniz Institute of Marine Sciences in the northern German city of Kiel. Latif, one of Germany's best-known climatologists, says that the temperature curve has reached a plateau. "There can be no argument about that," he says. "We have to face that fact."

Even though the temperature standstill probably has no effect on the long-term warming trend, it does raise doubts about the predictive value of climate models, and it is also a political issue.


Meanwhile CO2 levels quietly continue their upward climb.
And the solar activity quietly continues to decline !

Which one do you think might have the biggest influence on the Global Climate?
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 21/11/2009 20:20

Turn the heater of on a frosty night ROM and you get a cold morning...
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 22/11/2009 05:54

It was recounted to me by an atmospheric scientist a week ago that in the last year or so the rate at which carbon dioxide levels in the atmosphere are rising has in fact slowed. By a small but significant amount.

He appeared perplexed by the efforts the more rabid AGW supporters have gone to to down play the significance of this, when it his view it is clear evidence of a direct link between industrial emissions and atmospheric concentrations in that total manufacturing use of fossil carbon releasing power has fallen, and proxy indicators of surface and air transport use such as toll road collections and total air passenger numbers have been in retreat for well over a year.

It is though the desire to continue to frighten people has overtaken the opportunity to inform, and make a direct connection with the consumption of fossil fuels.

The articles that concerned him were about the 'carbon budget'. I didn't clip any, however the fine print is apparently not what either the denier camp nor the scare-the-hell-out-of-everyone camps might wish to highlight.

In my view this is a reminder that at the extremes of the debate the investment some people have made in misinformation is apparently too precious for them to consider the implications of a dip in carbon accumulation occurring at the same time as an economic downturn.
Posted by: aerology

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 22/11/2009 07:47

It's a sad thing when in the heat of the emotional side of this debate, real data is overlooked, by both sides who are already commented, by belief,anchored by inertia, constantly defending old ideas, at the cost of improving the total understanding by incorporating the real new data as it comes in, leaving the whole topic mired in the emotional muck slinging slop.

I would rather incorporate new data, and ideas, into the mix and come up with real solutions to the complexity of the global emissions interactions, with the rest of the driving forces, behind the weather and climate changes that are always in control. Open minded applied logic works for me, leave the emotional content to the bed room.
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 22/11/2009 07:53

Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 22/11/2009 08:19

This article appears to touch on the reduced rate of carbon dioxide increase.

Corbis News re carbon rate reduction

This is I think the critical quote:The bulk of this rise in emissions can be attributed to the burning of fossil fuels such as coal, oil and gas. Fossil fuel emissions have risen by 29% since 2000, and 41% since 1990, the reference year for the Kyoto Protocol. Furthermore, while CO2 emissions from fossil fuels rose by just 1% per year during the 1990s, they rose by an average of 3.6% per year between 2000 and 2007.

The economic crisis helped to slow the rise in emissions; in 2008, they 'only' increased by 2%. Nevertheless, the researchers warn, 'emissions continued to track the average of the most carbon-intensive family of scenarios put forward by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change'.

Looking at expected changes in gross domestic product (GDP), the team expects emissions for 2009 to fall back to 2007 levels, before rising again in 2011.

So what is driving this rise in emissions? A major culprit is coal, which has now overtaken oil as the dominant fossil fuel emission source. Coal was responsible for 40% of all fossil fuel CO2 emissions in 2008, compared to 37% for the period from 1990 to 2000. In contrast, oil's contribution to total fossil fuel emissions fell from a high of 41% during the 1990s to 36% in 2008.
END QUOTE.

The critical point that is buried in the text is that for the first time in many decades the rate at which CO2 is accumulating has slowed. Of course if the link is correctly attributed to fossil fuel burning, it will rise again as the global economic crisis passes.

And if that doesn't happen then we have to go looking for another explanation, and significant revision of the science of AGW might accelerate.

The article betrays a conscious effort to avoid suggesting that the risk of AGW is lessening even though the reasons would validate the prime platform of AGW science, which is the excessive combustion of fossil fuels.
Posted by: mobihci

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 22/11/2009 14:34

nobody can say how much co2 has gone up or down due to humans over the last 50 years let alone one single year. seeing the claim somewhere means more than the claim itself.
Posted by: Keith

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 22/11/2009 15:41

It's all to do with this falsification doctrine. Because you can't falsify something doesn't mean a thing. I said a fair bit about this somewhere here recently. Man isn't guilty until he can legally be proved otherwise. Science isn't exempt from this process.

As for CO2, you would have to have some way of tagging every single one of those countless billions of molecules to see which ones came from fuel burning. Impossible and ridiculous, but that's what I think it would take.
Posted by: Flying Binghi (2)

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 22/11/2009 16:55

Interesting write up in Newsweek. Some extracts -

…”A major climatic change would force economic and social adjustments on a worldwide scale,” warns a recent report by the National Academy of Sciences

… The longer the planners delay, the more difficult will they find it to cope with climate change once the results become grim reality.

Climatologists are pessimistic that political leaders will take any positive action to compensate for the climatic change, or even to allay its effects…

…There are ominous signs that the Earth’s weather patterns have begun to change dramatically and that these changes may portend a drastic…

…To scientists, these seemingly disparate incidents represent the advance signs of fundamental changes in the world’s weather…
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 23/11/2009 06:01

Keith,

Funny you should say that. The thorium and synthetic chemical traces that accompany some forms of fossil fuel release are amenable to closer scrutiny and measurements as the 'forensic' capabilities of atmospheric research improve. The next decade of environmental research is going to be very interesting. Should we ban this research now, or have it slap us in the face? Are there some things we shouldn't know?
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 23/11/2009 07:04

British climate expert 'cheered' by Aussie's death

COMPUTER hackers have broken into Britain's leading climate science research centre, making public thousands of private emails between top climate change scientists.

The messages – more than 2000 emails and 3000 documents – lay bare bitter disagreements about the cause of climate change.

In one email, the head of Britain's Climatic Research Unit, Phil Jones, says he is "cheered" by news of the sudden death of a prominent Australian climate sceptic, John L. Daly, who died of a heart attack at his Launceston home in 2004.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,26386792-401,00.html
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 23/11/2009 07:25

That is an appalling reflection on Phil Jones. Does it tell us anything about the actual science, No.

Does it allow us to ascribe virtue to one side of the argument and evil to the other, No.

This is the tabloid newspaper approach to climate change. Anything but the reality of the research.
Posted by: Keith

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 23/11/2009 07:56

Originally Posted By: Ben Sandilands
Keith,

Funny you should say that. The thorium and synthetic chemical traces that accompany some forms of fossil fuel release are amenable to closer scrutiny and measurements as the 'forensic' capabilities of atmospheric research improve. The next decade of environmental research is going to be very interesting. Should we ban this research now, or have it slap us in the face? Are there some things we shouldn't know?




Ben I wouldn't have a clue about what else is emitted. I was simply referring to trying to 'tag' CO2, not to the need of ongoing research as such.
Posted by: Keith

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 23/11/2009 08:00

Originally Posted By: Ben Sandilands
That is an appalling reflection on Phil Jones. Does it tell us anything about the actual science, No.

Does it allow us to ascribe virtue to one side of the argument and evil to the other, No.

This is the tabloid newspaper approach to climate change. Anything but the reality of the research.


It says nothing about the science. It says a lot about academic arrogance. It matters little whether John Daly was a scientist or not, nobody has the right to go around saying things like that, especially when the poor man is dead and can't defend himself. Scientists aren't exempt from professional courtesy and discretion. If it reflects poorly on Jones then he deserves it, in my view.
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 23/11/2009 08:14

Keith,

I agree with your comments about Phil Jones. He appears deserving of the criticism. But it has nothing to do with the science, and everything to do with personality failings that are uniformly distributed so far as anyone can see throughout the population.

By highlighting Jones's glee at the death of another human being the post implies vice or badness on one side of the debate, and not the other, without even adding a word to the discussion of the science.

In my 'real' life this reminds me of the current fixation with the semi unclad photos of the 'hero' pilot that sunk a medivac flight at Norfolk Island last Wednesday night because he didn't load enough fuel to divert to an alternate airport yet flew knowingly into bad weather conditions. Those reports cast no light whatsoever on the public safety issues that have now arisen over the conduct of that flight. Jones's nastiness doesn't change the issues concerning atmospheric concentrations of carbon dioxide.
Posted by: Keith

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 23/11/2009 08:49

Fair enough Ben, you are referring to the post itself rather than the quote it contains, it seems. But bear in mind that one doesn't have to necessarily agree with the comment in order to post a reference to it. Simmo was only quoting Jones, but is probably the best person to comment on what he was intending to achieve. We all like to draw attention to articles that we think advance our position, and this is a thread as much on articles as the science itself. So in that context I think Simmo's post is relevant...a bit hard to seperate one aspect from the other.
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 23/11/2009 09:05

I have to confess I would truly like to see AGW overturned. I'm not cheering for it at all. The research leaves me in despair. But ever since Graeme Pearman gave me a cover story interview for The Bulletin on May 3, 1988 I have sensed nothing but foreboding as to where we were heading, and that was before the terminology of global warming had come together and eventually seeped into our daily lives.

We can and must end the anthropogenic distortions (I believe) with innovation and new energy technologies, not fee generating emissions trading scams, and not through the agendas of the social engineers.

So if Simmo and BD and ROM and others can overturn the crushing weight of the actual science I'll be thrilled. At best, solar fluctuations can give us some space, but so far, nature has disappointed.

Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 23/11/2009 11:22

the actual science is that CO2 causes a small temp increase from now on. The rest of the "science" on CO2 feedbacks is unproven and hypothetical an full of if's and buts, Ben. It is all unproven and does not cope with the vast and complex nature of the ocean,atmosphere, gases, albedo-clouds solar, ocean-atmosphere-magnetic-cosmic ray, ocean-land, deforestation, change of land use, etc complex exchanges and interchanges that go on...It is therefore not a good idea to go for one small angle that may not be correct and magnify it above all the others. We have so much more yet to learn...Lets put our attention to research into all these other effects, not just one ie CO2. All this spending & effort & mucking around with AGW, if put into better research & channels could have improved agriculture & productivity fourfold, and helped mankind improve there lot a great deal, and helped return vast land areas to a more productive state with nature belts, etc, & made agriculture more efficient by a "working with nature not against philosophy. And thereby, whatever occurs ahead with climate we would cope much better..instead all I see are a huge wate of funds, research and time into a mainly futile excercise (better energy techniques & uses are the only benefit that is coming out of this, most of the rest of AGW is mainly waste of money, time and effort as I see it...The attemps at cutting back of CO2 will achieve nothing or very little at all and likely fail anyway...For what to "solve" at problem that is unproven and very very likely does not even exist!)
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 23/11/2009 11:42

There is no crushing weight of [ AGW ] Science.
Every science research project / paper/ study/ you name it, has to start with certain well proven assumptions.
No, repeat, NO research / researcher starts his / her research in a vacuum.

ALL recent and current research into the changes in the Global Climate temperatures rely on four global temperature data analyzing organisations, CRU and GISS for the analysis of ground station and historical proxy based temperature data and UAH and RSS for the [ more accurate but very recent ] satellite based temperature data.

The CRU data at least is now known to be heavily compromised so any research that uses CRU based temperature and proxy data as a part of it's basic initial premise from which the research started, is now suspect.

Fix CRU and GISS so that their data analysis is totally transparent and completely open to any researcher to check and verify and ensure that both CRU, GISS, UAH and RSS are above ANY suspicion whatsoever and totally open and transparent and then let's see which way the research falls.

It is as simple as that!

And for another view on what has happened from another really major figure in the climate research world, head of the UAH satellite research team, Dr Roy Spencer
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 23/11/2009 12:00

But, don't worry it is "getting much worser and quicker than predicted with much fear and panic and gloom & doom" is still the urgent message!!!

"Warming's impacts sped up, worsened since Kyoto
By SETH BORENSTEIN (AP) – 7 hours ago

"WASHINGTON — Since the 1997 international accord to fight global warming, climate change has worsened and accelerated — beyond some of the grimmest of warnings made back then.""

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hjrkevVWHdM8rWorsC2E8mUvBPzgD9C4NKU80
Posted by: SBT

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 23/11/2009 12:08

PANIC the water is rising. Quick don the MK1 new and improved 8 metre high stilts.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,26386881-23109,00.html Antartic ice shelf will add 5m of height to current sea level or maybe not "Consistent with earlier findings based on different methods, they found that West Antarctica dumped, on average, about 132 billion tonnes of ice into the sea each year, give or take 26 billion tonnes." Only to be further told that "The margin for error, they cautioned, is almost as large as the estimate, meaning ice loss could be a little as a few billion tonnes or more than 100." Phew glad they managed to clear that up.

Idiot reporters and non sensical reports = misinformation on a grand scale.
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 23/11/2009 12:32

Sir Boab,

If you ask the nuclear power station question again in the comparatively near future the answer will be 'one.'
Posted by: Flying Binghi (2)

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 23/11/2009 12:40

Quote:
And for another view on what has happened from another really major figure in the climate research world, head of the UAH satellite research team, Dr Roy Spencer


From Dr Roy Spencer's comments about Climategate -

"...Year after year, the evidence keeps mounting that most climate research now being funded is for the purpose of supporting the IPCC’s politics, not to find out how nature works. The ‘data spin’ is increasingly difficult to ignore or to explain away as just sloppy science. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck…"

http://www.drroyspencer.com/
Posted by: Keith

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 23/11/2009 12:52

I don't know how correct this is, but in a recent 2GB broadcast (which I listened to online), Alan Jones quoted the sealevels at Fort Denison on Sydney Harbour, hadn't really changed in 200 years. That wasn't his opinion; he was quoting someone in the science.

Makes me think, if that's correct, where are the experts getting all this rising sealevel stuff from? Or more to the point, why are the fluctuations that do occur, being touted as evidence when Sydney is in absolutely no danger of being swamped from Manly to the Harbour Bridge?

This is why (amongst other reasons) I don't subscribe to the fear and panic. Too many of us are getting ourselves frightened for nothing and being made so by a very infant science whose strongest possible tenets are based largely on circumstantial, selective evidence which, as BD just said, is not confined to man made emissions and the like.

The issue of alternative energy, as distinct from the production of energy, while very valid, shouldn't be tied in with GW. It muddies debate on the latter, something that I think is exactly what the extremists are wanting.
Posted by: SBT

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 23/11/2009 14:33

Well said Keith.

There is a niche for so called renewable energy or I should more correctly say alternative energy sources like solar, geothermal, tidal, wave and wind and yes they shouldn't be tied to the apron strings of global warming and the bulldust carbon credits scheme/tax but should be an entirely seperate program and maybe people would take a more detailed interest in them.
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 23/11/2009 17:21

Keith, try the Australian blog of Warwick Hughes "Errors in IPCC Climate Science". and here is a recent post of his on
"How reliable are Australian Govt claims about rising sea levels ?"

Warwick as I understand it is a former researcher with the BOM and is somewhat disillusioned with the way they operate.
He also has a certain notoriety as the climate researcher who wrote to Phil Jones of the CRU with a request for some climate information to do some research on.
Jones replied with the now somewhat famous quote amongst climate researchers and amongst scientists of all discplines;
"Why should I give you any data when all you will do is to find fault with it and tear it apart.? [ not exact phraseology but close! ]

This of course is the very antitheses of how climate science and science in general should and in some disciplines does operate.
It really does show up the arrogant attitude of the CRU Team towards other climate researchers
Posted by: Keith

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 23/11/2009 18:18

ROM, thanks for the link. Not being an expert I don't know how valid this is but having read the article, a couple of things come to mind; the influence of tropical cyclones on the ocean's temperature (and therefore its CO2 absorption capacity..more relevant generally than sealevels I guess) but probably far more significantly, the geology of the islands themselves.

And I just had a thought..what about Venice? It's built on a swamp. As far as I know it hasn't been evacuated, nor its artworks.Nor, for that matter, the Netherlands.
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 24/11/2009 06:13

Lots of evidence here...


450 Peer-Reviewed Papers Supporting Skepticism of "Man-Made" Global Warming


http://www.populartechnology.net/2009/10/peer-reviewed-papers-supporting.html
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 24/11/2009 06:19

Climate Change - religion getting into your life even if you don't believe it

We are starting to see how much this climate change hysteria is going to affect your life.

Premier Bligh’s husband Greg Withers is the bureaucrat (assistant director-general) who’s in charge of the state government’s Office of Climate Change.

If you want a hint about how much the madness is going to get into every little bit of your life, read this form.

Anyone who has a property for sale in Queensland form 1 January next year will have to fill in this form.

I can’t bring myself to give you a summary of this form – every single bit of the tightly formatted document reeks of interference in your life.

You’ll have to calculate your greenhouse gas emissions. You’ll have to sign a declaration that you’re aware that it’s an offence to give false or misleading information on the form.

Sustainability declaration

http://media.mytalk.com.au/stuff/declaration.pdf


http://www.4bc.com.au/blogs/michael-smit...91113-idww.html
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 24/11/2009 06:38

CSIRO 'gagging climate debate'
CSIRO managers are narrowly interpreting the agency's charter to effectively ban scientists from publishing any critique of emissions trading schemes, in a decision that has sparked alarm among the organisation's climate change experts.

The move comes amid a crackdown by the CSIRO on public comments by scientists in their personal capacity.

The organisation began rolling out a new public comment policy three weeks ago that limits what scientists can say publicly about issues within their area of expertise.

The new policy forbids scientists from making comments, even in their private capacity, if the remarks might affect "public confidence in CSIRO as a trusted adviser". If such a perception could arise, scientists are required to discuss the issue with their supervisor to "effectively manage risks".

Scientists told The Australian yesterday the vague wording of the policy meant they would be forced to seek permission before making any public comments, even if the comments were not associated with the CSIRO.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/hea...f-1225794500655
Posted by: Keith

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 24/11/2009 07:19

We've become a nation led by an army of zealots whose steps go 'left, left, left, left..'

Where's the Russian violinist when you need him...

Yaputcha Leftleggin...
Posted by: Keith

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 24/11/2009 07:24

Originally Posted By: Simmosturf
Lots of evidence here...


450 Peer-Reviewed Papers Supporting Skepticism of "Man-Made" Global Warming


http://www.populartechnology.net/2009/10/peer-reviewed-papers-supporting.html


Some of those papers may require a subscription in order to read their full content (and not just the abstracts), such as Wiley Publishing.
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 24/11/2009 08:56

"The Australian" this morning.

"Hot and Bothered" and "Opinion" http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion Take your choice!
Posted by: petethemoskeet

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 24/11/2009 11:17

Just heard on the radio that the coalition has passed the amended ETS.Bl**dy useless lot they are
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 24/11/2009 14:43

Longer November heatwave 130 years ago
Brett Dutschke, Tuesday November 24, 2009 - 12:57 EDT

The most recent heatwave was record-breaking for many areas, but in November 1878 a heatwave lasted almost twice as long, according to weatherzone.com.au.

Nearly all inland areas of New South Wales and South Australia and surrounding areas of Victoria, Queensland and the Northern Territory have had at least eight days of extreme heat, record-breaking for November.

But in some inland towns, records were not broken.

Inland weather stations which have measured temperature for the last 131 years or longer show that there was a November heatwave which lasted about two weeks.

http://www.weatherzone.com.au/news/longer-november-heatwave-130-years-ago/13156
Posted by: teckert

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 24/11/2009 15:21

Any records back then would have to be very dubious, if not completely inaccurate! I wouldnt even use them in comparison to records collected post 1900's...
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 24/11/2009 15:48

But it doesn't seem to work both ways hey mate?
Posted by: teckert

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 24/11/2009 16:01

What do you mean? What other way? Please refer to Blair's post here: http://forum.weatherzone.com.au/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=799446#Post799446

Anyway, this discussion is not exactly on topic anyway.
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 24/11/2009 20:58

OOPS! Cross talk. See Arnost's post in IPCC scientists Hacked
Posted by: marakai

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 25/11/2009 00:26

Lovely story on lateline tonight.

Quote:
JENNIFER MACEY: Professor Nathan Bindoff says the new research shows that region is more sensitive to a changing climate than previously thought.

And he says the 2007 IPCC report has underestimated the extent of future sea level rise caused by thinning ice in Antarctica.

NATHAN BINDOFF: And as we actually observe Antarctica literally shrinking in front of us, we understand that our estimates of that 22 centimetres from the ice sheets, Antarctica and a Greenland is almost certainly an underestimate.

And so the new numbers that people are extrapolating from these measurements, so it is a bit of an extrapolation, that what they're saying is that there could be something like a metre to 1.5 metres for all of the contributions to sea level by 2100.

MARK COLVIN: Professor Nathan Bindoff from the Antarctic Cooperative Research Centre in Hobart ending that report by Jennifer Macey.


http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2009/s2751232.htm


And all extrapolating but ignoring the fact that the earth is actually cooling, and their models are based on the Best that the IPCC has to offer.
Posted by: Flying Binghi (2)

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 25/11/2009 05:30

The leading global warming skeptic in Congress says he will ask for an investigation into allegations that some scientists have purposely overstated the data supporting the theory of man-made climate change.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,576488,00.html
Posted by: Flying Binghi (2)

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 25/11/2009 05:42

"What this bloke has demonstrated is that he has no ability to lead us to an election. He is hopeless"

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,26398172-421,00.html

Got me wondering if Turnbulls only goal is to get the ETS in then leave....
Posted by: Keith

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 25/11/2009 06:46

This article in this morning's Sydney Morning Herald:

http://www.smh.com.au/technology/technol...91124-jd0l.html

Hardly surprising, given that paper's leanings.
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 25/11/2009 07:06

Marakai,

Whatever the consequences, there were some very unusual episodes of mild weather in the main mass of Antarctica last winter. I'm not saying it will validate one view or the other, but I am saying SOMETHING we haven't seen before in the century of southern polar exploration. For me the canary in the mine shaft is likely to be the state of the blue ice runway that serves Casey and adjacent bases. I'm looking forward to seeing some official observational reviews of the past year, considering how cold the previous 'summer' was in some parts and how mild the winter was by comparison.
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 25/11/2009 07:24

At last, proof the science of global warming is a scam

The leaked climate emails are a problem, but only a vast conspiracy would justify the sceptics, writes George Monbiot.

It's no use pretending this isn't a major blow. The emails extracted by a hacker from the climatic research unit at the University of East Anglia could scarcely be more damaging. I am now convinced they are genuine, and I'm dismayed and deeply shaken by them.

Yes, the messages were obtained illegally. Yes, all of us say things in emails that would be excruciating if made public. Yes, some of the comments have been taken out of context. But there are some messages that require no spin to make them look bad. There appears to be evidence of attempts to prevent scientific data from being made public.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/a...91124-jga0.html
Posted by: marakai

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 25/11/2009 07:39

Originally Posted By: Ben Sandilands
Marakai,

Whatever the consequences, there were some very unusual episodes of mild weather in the main mass of Antarctica last winter. I'm not saying it will validate one view or the other, but I am saying SOMETHING we haven't seen before in the century of southern polar exploration. For me the canary in the mine shaft is likely to be the state of the blue ice runway that serves Casey and adjacent bases. I'm looking forward to seeing some official observational reviews of the past year, considering how cold the previous 'summer' was in some parts and how mild the winter was by comparison.



30 yrs of sat data is all they have.Anything outside that is conjecture.
Posted by: marakai

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 25/11/2009 09:07

Quote:
Let me tell you why the press is blacking out the Climategate story:

In a nutshell, Climategate is a destroyer of world-views. As someone who has always maintained that the AGW hype was a matter of politicians and grifters seizing an opportunity to use unsettled science as a means of getting filthy rich while imposing harsh measures against human freedom, I am very familiar with the world-view of the alarmists. Whenever I wrote about the “hoo-hah” of AGW (and particularly of Al Gore’s stupendous, international fake-out and hypocrisy), my email would load up with people telling me I was “a stupid hick,” unschooled in scientific method (just like Al Gore) and therefore unentitled to opine on anything, so I should just “shut up” and “go away” and of course, I was a “nazi.” These emails occasionally ended with a diatribe against George W. Bush for good measure, and suggested he and I were both “criminals” against humanity. One person even accused me of being Barbara Bush, in disguise.

All of that was standard-issue hate, but nowhere as amusing as the occasional “Sinner, fry in hell” emails I will get from a Jack Chicker, so I stopped reading them long ago.

But I also had a journalist I admired, and who I still consider a friend, privately and gently suggest that if I doubted the truth about AGW then I was as deluded (and perhaps as evil) as a “holocaust denier.”

Yes. The left went that far. The press went that far. They embraced this unsettled science, this unproven theory, with a fervor of moral righteousness; to dispute AGW was to be a bad and stupid person, even if were a dissenting scientist.

To question the point of “environmentally sound” lightbulbs that give bad light and create a dangerous and toxic risk when they break was to “not get the point,” which was that the planet was “dying” thanks to Hanukkah candles and incandescent lightbulbs.

To suggest that large-numbers of privileged people flying scores of private planes to exotic locals, gorging themselves on fine fare while deciding how the common folk ought to live, in order to “save” the planet from AGW was bizarre, wasteful and hypocritical in an era of video-conferencing, was to be sniffed at as “insipid.” Didn’t one understand the power of the Gore Indulgence carbon-offset? Just pay some money to the man with the absolute moral authority on all things green, and your sins are covered. Somewhere, a tree is planted.

The scam of AGW was permitted to gain the foothold it did, because of George W. Bush.


http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/theanchoress/2009/11/24/climategate-implosion-is-bushs-fault/
Posted by: Keith

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 25/11/2009 09:09

Monbiot appears to be against the skeptics. Have I misread his article? I don't quite follow what he's trying to say.
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 25/11/2009 11:17

Keith,

Monbiot is nobody's tool. Neither the deniers and protagonists. He is rational, thus managing to variously infuriate both sides as much as he gives them moments of comfort.
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 25/11/2009 11:20

There is a lay person's guide to Antarctic and Arctic polar ice losses (and gains) on the Australian Antarctic Division site.



AAD paper on polar ice losses

If I can get a word in edgeways on Crikey today, given events in Canbra, this will be referenced in a story about the iceberg breakout fast closing in on the SE corner of the south island of NZ.

The document doesn't support any of the screaming headlines on either extreme of the debate. But it is well written, and authoritative, and (gasp) penned by scientists.
Posted by: Keith

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 25/11/2009 17:29

Don't expect the media to relinquish its view of AGW as a news spinner. Eddie McGuire is right this minute hosting a game show in which one of the contestants is a 'carbon accountant'.

I know it's for ratings and contemporaneity with the world at large but blind Freddie should be able to see through this ploy.
Posted by: adon

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 25/11/2009 18:00

Carbon accountant eh??? One of the thousands of green jobs we keep hearing about. A pen pusher making money from pollution. No gain for the planet there just the start of the middlemen who are the only ones to actually profit from an ETS.
Posted by: Keith

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 25/11/2009 18:59

Certainly came as a shock to me, Adon. A whole new breed of accountancy.

Though not formally qualified, I spent my whole working life doing legal auditing work. I must be getting more and more redundant with every passing day.

Suprisingly, David Bellamy was on ACA tonight..the guy the BBC kicked out because of his 'denialism'.
Posted by: Flying Binghi (2)

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 25/11/2009 19:07

Quote:
...The document doesn't support any of the screaming headlines on either extreme of the debate. But it is well written, and authoritative...


Ben Sandilands, i had a read through the research you referenced. The first paragraph gives me a very good idea of what the 'results' that this "well written and authoritive" research will show. Yet again we have a foregone result from a totaly bias report -

"...The position analyses 'Polar ice sheets and climate change' and 'Changes to Antarctic sea ice' explore the main types of polar ice – ice sheets and sea ice – and their response to climate change in both the northern and southern hemispheres...."...blah, blah, blah...

Having a look see ah find -

"...Another major gap concerns what is happening at the bed of the ice sheets – how they react with liquid water at the base, what role water may have in sliding processes, and the role of gravels and slurry at the base. We now know there is a lot of liquid water under the ice sheets, but we don't really know how changes in this may affect the ice flow..."

Wheres the mention of under ice volcanic effects ???...wheres the mention of earth quake effects ??? i see we've had a few undersea earth quakes in the last few years - remember the odd 100,000 or so killed in the Indonesian tsunami for example? apparently that tsunami were caused by a mere metre of undeersea earth movement....wonder what would happen with a mere metre of earth movement under an ice sheet based on gravels and slurry ??? ....maybe it would look like ice shedding off a wing when ya hit the boots...

A little back up to just how little these researchers know, recently under the Arctic, we had the largest known undersea volcanic explosion in known history....apparently no body knew at the time, scientists discovered it after the event...wow

I seem to recall these Antarctic researchers were going to look at the volcanic effects before they finished their research...no mention in the article...were the results inconvenient perhaps ?.........
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 25/11/2009 19:34

This BBC item really gives everybody a great deal of confidence in the UN and that the demands for the immense amounts of annual compensatory climate change finance from the developed country's tax payers to the developing countries at Copenhagen will be of great benefit to those developing countries.

But then Pigs Might Fly!
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 25/11/2009 20:45

FB,

The study of volcanism on Antarctica is fairly well documented. I can't recall any of it being linked to climate change, only plate tectonics. One of the things that strikes you about Antarctica is the incredible time scales. This is a land of ice, the glacier wastes have buried most of it during glacials and interglacials alike. Volcanoes, and even several sites which offer evidence of significant meteorite impacts, are like pimples that appear on the face of this seemingly eternal continent of ice. There is really not a huge amount of direct evidence of volcanism in anything remotely close to the present, notwithstanding Erebus, which is active, and the Vinson area, which shows signs of ancient volcanism.

One of the criticisms we make of AGW proponents is their trying to see everything through the prism of climate change. Why criticise people for NOT doing this?

But I had a feeling, as I indicated in Crikey today, that the strong voices at the extremes of the debate would dislike the referenced paper, because it is rational, fair, and makes no outrageous claims.

I should also point out that it reflects a view in sections of our scientific community that their work is being misused by both extremes of the debate.

Just because they don't support the end-of-the-world scenarios of the warmistas, or the imminent pole-to-pole ice age scenarios of the 'coldistas' is no reason for attacking them.

Incidentally the largest undersea explosion in history in the arctic story has gone very quiet because it didn't happen. Another internet myth that comes and goes, like the aerial survey that found 30 feet thick sea ice between Iceland and Greenland, which was also a fabrication. There was a survey, in fact many, but there was no 30 feet thick sea ice, any more than there was a 60 foot snowfall in America in October.
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 25/11/2009 21:00

Keith,

Bellamy's fatal error was to publish stories claiming that NZ's glaciers were advancing when in fact all of them were in obvious retreat. He seemed to think nobody would complain.

(The upper portions of many of its glaciers are thickening because of increased snowfall, but the snowline has risen, meaning the lower expanses of its glaciers are melting and retreating, and in many instances of smaller glaciers, disappearing, because the snow accumulation line is now higher than they are.)
Posted by: Keith

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 25/11/2009 21:18

Well, they weren't interviewing him on his relationship with the BBC. It was more to do with his denial of the 'A' part of 'AGW'. He says it's all cyclical. No doubt that motivated whatever he said that the BBC didn't like.

And besides, doesn't it give the impression that the BBC is acting with a certain amount of authority it doesn't have, or is it just that they like to quote the opinions of scientists whose views lean in the same direction?

Not that I'm here to defend Bellamy anyway, I haven't followed the history of the whole affair. My point is that I think the BBC is in the same league as the GW scientists when they start throwing their weight at anybody who dares stand up to them. It's a bit like the comments of certain people in this discussion who share the same point of view.
Posted by: adon

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 25/11/2009 21:24

Originally Posted By: Keith
Certainly came as a shock to me, Adon. A whole new breed of accountancy.

Though not formally qualified, I spent my whole working life doing legal auditing work. I must be getting more and more redundant with every passing day.

Suprisingly, David Bellamy was on ACA tonight..the guy the BBC kicked out because of his 'denialism'.



Should go them for discrimination..... world's first court case over climatism
Posted by: Flying Binghi (2)

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 26/11/2009 02:58

Quote:
The study of volcanism on Antarctica is fairly well documented. I can't recall any of it being linked to climate change


Nobody said it were linked - as the researchers said near a year ago, they would have to check on the volcanic/earth quake activity under the ice to ensure the study's integrity
...apparently there has been no checks, or, perhaps the results have proven 'inconvenient' IMO, not knowing what earthquake activity is happening under an ice mass 'floating' on a slush/gravel base the research is incomplete, at best - nonsense.


Quote:
Incidentally the largest undersea explosion in history in the arctic story has gone very quiet because it didn't happen. Another internet myth that comes and goes


Ben, ya best show us where it has been shown to be fabricated. I've had a quick look to see if it has been debunked, though this is the best i could find -

(A note for reading the link; if a metre of sea floor movement several miles down off Indonesia can send a tidal wave for hundreds of miles, what happens to a floating ice mass above a Krakatoa ?)

http://mises.org/Community/blogs/tokyoto...ce-melting.aspx



Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 26/11/2009 06:34

It doesn't matter what happens to a floating ice mass, or anything else above a volcanic eruption, unless one has the misfortune to be in one's villa in Pompeii at the time.

The relationship of tsunami and earthquakes to the fate of the Antarctic ice cap has with respect nothing to do with anthropogenic climate change. The ice masses are up to five kilometres thick and so dense the lower few kilometres are technically a rock that resembles granite in density and rigidity.

There is evidence recounted in Ted Bryant's book Tsunami, the underrated hazard, to a massive tsunami that travelled so far inland over the ice mass around 4000 years ago that the source can only be ascribed to a comet or giant meteor impact in the sea adjacent to the affected areas. And there is also evidence of volcanic ash deposits in some parts of the continent that no one has so far been able to relate to the site of an eruption on or near Antarctica. It may have been a submarine eruption like those we see in modern times around Samoa, but so far, we have the fingerprints of the suspect, but not an address.
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 26/11/2009 07:33

The voices of climate change sceptics
Thinktanks, lords and shock jocks are just some of the dissenters in the climate change debate

The furore over the climate scientists' emails has given an unexpected boost to global warming sceptics on both sides of the Atlantic, but none outside that small circle believe the affair will divert governments, businesses or communities from seeking a low-carbon future.

The affair lifted the launch, announced in The Times, of a new "high-powered" think tank on climate change by Lord Nigel Lawson, the former Conservative Chancellor and current global warming critic. He denies he is a climate change sceptic, but is "sceptical" about the policy response. He found the perfect platform to promote his Global Warming Policy Foundation while also calling for an independent inquiry into the content of the emails.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/nov/24/voices-of-climate-change-denial
Posted by: Keith

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 26/11/2009 08:04

Channel 9's Today Show has just run a brief interview with someone advocating the side of AGW. She was put on the spot when confronted with the lack of evidence (not for warming, but the 'A' aspect). What does she respond? Firstly, she asked the interviewer if he was a skeptic...the usual automatic, insinuating assumption that these people make about others. Then followed '..well, I assume', and 'I believe that...' and the usual mantras of 'have to act now' and all that other stuff related to 'saving the planet'...as if that's the science.

Funny how science and 'beliefs' are compatible when it suits.
Posted by: Arnost

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 26/11/2009 10:33

Placeholder

In press paper re smoothing of the mid 20C temps
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 26/11/2009 21:32

Alan's Lord Monckton interview goes global
Following a phenomenal worldwide response to Alan Jones's interview with Lord Monckton regarding the potential implications of the Copenhagen Climate Treaty, Alan has replayed the interview in its entirety.


http://www.2gb.com/index2.php?option=com_newsmanager&task=view&id=5149
Posted by: marakai

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 26/11/2009 22:13

This is getting ridiculous, is this for real? It's from Janet Albrechtsen blog from the Australian, This week is freaking me out, the libs go into meltdown, Climategate, now this.

Quote:
Now read the 181-page draft treaty. It is impossible to fully understand the convoluted UN verbiage. Yet even those incomprehensible clauses point to some nasty surprises that no politician has told us about. For example, Monckton says the drafters want this new world government to have control over once free markets: the financial and trading markets of nation-states. “The sheer ambition of this new world government is enormous right from the start; that’s even before it starts accreting powers to itself in the way that these entities inevitably always do,” he says.

The reason for that power grab is clear enough from the draft treaty. Clause after complicated clause sets out the requirement that developed countries such as Australia pay their “adaptation debt” to developing countries. Clause 33 on page 39 says that by 2020 the scale of financial flows to support adaptation in developing countries must be at least $US67 billion ($73bn), or in the range of $US70bn to $US140bn a year.

How developed countries will pay is far from clear. The draft text sets out various alternatives, including Option 7 on page 135, which provides for “a (global) levy of 2 per cent on international financial market (monetary) transactions to Annex I Parties”. This means industrialised countries such as Australia, if we sign.

Monckton’s warning to Americans that “in the next few weeks, unless you stop it, your President will sign your freedom, your democracy and your prosperity away forever” is colourful. But no more colourful than the language used by those who preach about the perils of climate change and the virtues of a hard-hitting Copenhagen treaty.

Put aside Monckton’s comments. Ask yourself this: why has our government failed to explain the possible text of a treaty it wants Australia to sign? There has been no address from any Rudd minister to explain the draft treaty. No 3000-word essay from the thoughtful PM. No speech in parliament. No interview. No press release. Nothing.

Presumably the hard-working Climate Change Minister Penny Wong has read the 181-page draft text. Presumably our central control and command PM has been briefed about the draft text. In Germany a few months ago, Kevin Rudd complained about the lack of “detailed programmatic specificity” going into the Copenhagen talks. Yet the draft text provides much detailed specificity about obligations on developed nations to transfer millions of dollars to developing countries under formulas to be set down by an unelected body. So why the silence? Are they hiding the details of this deal from us because most of the polls now suggest that action on climate change is becoming politically unpalatable?


http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/j...openhagen_plot/
Posted by: Rime

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 26/11/2009 22:47

..and this from our very own CSIRO.

Quote:

CSIRO scientist to be punished over emissions trading scheme paper

THE CSIRO will punish one of its scientists after he published a paper on climate change that criticised the Government's emissions trading scheme.
It has accused Dr Clive Spash of breaching protocol by releasing the paper before it was vetted by the peak science body.

"These breaches of fundamental CSIRO standards will be dealt with through appropriate line management," CSIRO boss Megan Clark wrote in a letter to Federal Science Minister Kim Carr.

But facing accusations of censorship, it has released the paper officially - stressing it is not linked to the CSIRO in any way.

Dr Spash accused his employer of gagging him after it refused to formally release his report under the CSIRO banner earlier this month.

The paper, The Brave New World of Carbon Trading, is critical of cap and trade systems - like the one the Government is introducing - as well as the compensation given to industry.
He recommends a direct tax on carbon.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,26406542-29277,00.html
Posted by: Arnost

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 27/11/2009 00:21

This is getting ridiculous, is this for real?

Yes. Brave New World we are about to enter... Eh?
Posted by: Severely Tall

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 27/11/2009 00:45

As Garnaut said....if we decide to bring forward an ETS with all these compensatory gestures such that it becomes impotent...we would be better off with a carbon tax.

The ridiculous show by the liberals shows why they will probably remain fractured and unable to win government for a number of years...simply put there is no obvious leader who crosses the divide between liberalism and conservatism. This debate has come down to one of the religious and conservative sides of the party opposing this bill for all the wrong reasons(for not having enough compensation doing too much etc)....(and amusingly gaining my support despite this)...the scheme which Turnbull has negotiated is poor and achieves nothing...and is really just a further cost without achievement. Politically..if Rudd really wanted to play hardball here he would say ok you guys can't make a deal, we are going to go ahead as we originally planned, if you defy it Ill take it to double dissolution...and shatter the liberal party properly. The only reason Rudd persists is his own vanity in showing Australia to be a "leader" and 'proactive' simply so he can have his place in history. Politically he is missing a chance in one fell swoop destroy the unity of the liberals.

Arnost I have to agree....the whole situation is becoming a bit surreal.
Posted by: marakai

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 27/11/2009 01:12

Originally Posted By: Arnost
This is getting ridiculous, is this for real?

Yes. Brave New World we are about to enter... Eh?


Scary new World is more like it M8, I knew this sort of stuff was out there on the conspiracy fringe of AGW, The NWO etc, I guess you could call me a skeptic (GASP) of it tho.
But it is actually there in black and white...I thank (whoever Atheists dont pray to)(HACKERS) that this has emerged, there must be so many people hiding under blankets in the corner at the moment with their worlds disintegrating before them, It's no wonder some on this forum have become so SHRILL in their responses.
A bit like a personal 2012 in their very own minds.
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 27/11/2009 05:27

It is even stranger when the protests that come from the beneficiaries of the scheme, notably big coal, resemble those of Brere Rabbit pleading with the fox not to be thrown into the briar patch.

I wonder what they will say if they don't get their ETS.
Posted by: Keith

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 27/11/2009 06:22

Turnbull's now stolen a page or two from the lefties with a stream of verbage about the liberals not wanting to be seen as 'skeptics and do-nothings'. If he's going to run with that sort of 'Ruddism' Why doesn't he resign and run for a Labor Party seat?
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 27/11/2009 09:34

From ; The Australian

China plans to raise imports of natural gas

This of course is just as expected from "unprecedented global cooling!" shocked crazy

Quote:
Natural-gas demand has soared in recent weeks due to low temperatures, rain and unusually early snowfall since the start of November. That has triggered severe tight supplies of gas - widely used for heating and cooking - in cities from Wuhan in central China to Chongqing in the west to Nanjing near the east coast.

Some Chinese cities have already started curtailing gas supplies to certain businesses. The government of Hangzhou, a city of more than six million people west of Shanghai, stopped natural-gas supplies to entertainment businesses this past weekend, and reduced supplies to hotels, office buildings and shopping malls by 20 per cent, the state-run Xinhua news agency said.
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 27/11/2009 10:06

I couldn't go past this one for a real good laugh.
It refers to the American financial situation but right now is as applicable to the Australian political situation and the ongoing saga of corruption by the CRU revealed in the Climate Gate files.

"We do live in interesting times. Don't die now, you really need to see how all this plays out."
Posted by: Cheers

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 27/11/2009 12:17

Originally Posted By: Keith
Turnbull's now stolen a page or two from the lefties with a stream of verbage about the liberals not wanting to be seen as 'skeptics and do-nothings'. If he's going to run with that sort of 'Ruddism' Why doesn't he resign and run for a Labor Party seat?

Since Keith" Wilson Tuckey" is allowed to use politics on this topic so will I.
I now have alot more respect for Turnbull for standing up to the likes of these extreme right wing conservatives on the ETS.
You really have to question the intelligence of these extreme right wing conservatives(half the Liberal party & all the Nats"NUTTERS" party)
These extreme right wing of the Liberal party are just stuck up' stuffy nosed wallys who think they have a God given right to rule.
The Nats"NUTTERS" party are just Country hicks.
You would have to question the intelligence of people who vote for these pollies.
Some of you might be upset by this but so be it.
Posted by: Rime

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 27/11/2009 12:29

Wow. That has got to be one of the best examples of trolling that I have seen on any forum for a long time.
Posted by: KevD

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 27/11/2009 12:46

...Trying not to smile...

I think we'd better leave the politics there please smile

Cheers

Kev
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 27/11/2009 12:55

Hey Kev, you had better watch where you use that "Cheers" sign off! laugh
Posted by: Cheers

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 27/11/2009 12:55

Originally Posted By: Black Nor'easter
...Trying not to smile...

I think we'd better leave the politics there please smile

Cheers

Kev

No problem as long as this applies to everyone,including Keith
Posted by: KevD

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 27/11/2009 13:05

Yep - same for everyone...Got to admit you've lost me on the 'cheers' there ROM...Heading off to Google 'cheers' in case there are some undertones that have completely escaped me blush

Any more chat on this by PM please guys or we'll all get in trouble for taking the thread too far off topic smile
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 27/11/2009 13:13

Tickled me; grin
You just might get mistaken for the political posting "Cheers" in the post above yours !!
Posted by: Keith

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 27/11/2009 14:19

Originally Posted By: Cheers
Since Keith" Wilson Tuckey" ...


Not quite. He's a lot older than me.

Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 27/11/2009 15:58

From a post on WUWT.

"Melbourne 11 am Friday 27 Nov. A quick poll has indicated the Australian public are 81% against Emission Trading Tax and 7% are in favour. Yet we have both main political parties pushing for it. What is the modern definition of democracy?"

Anybody got any verification of these numbers?
Posted by: marakai

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 27/11/2009 16:13

Looks like the climate has changed for the ETS.
Posted by: Arnost

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 27/11/2009 16:46

"Melbourne 11 am Friday 27 Nov. A quick poll has indicated the Australian public are 81% against Emission Trading Tax and 7% are in favour. Yet we have both main political parties pushing for it. What is the modern definition of democracy?"

Anybody got any verification of these numbers?


Had a look for any type of poll in the media that asks the simple question: "Do you approve of the ETS as it stands?" Y/N or similar. Of course nothing - all the polls are about the leadership and who to support... Sometimes I wonder about our media...
Posted by: Rime

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 27/11/2009 17:05

Originally Posted By: Arnost
"Melbourne 11 am Friday 27 Nov. A quick poll has indicated the Australian public are 81% against Emission Trading Tax and 7% are in favour. Yet we have both main political parties pushing for it. What is the modern definition of democracy?"

Anybody got any verification of these numbers?


Had a look for any type of poll in the media that asks the simple question: "Do you approve of the ETS as it stands?" Y/N or similar. Of course nothing - all the polls are about the leadership and who to support... Sometimes I wonder about our media...


I have seen a lot of online polls with similar results, even higher. Some of them around the 90 - 95% mark. You have to take any online polls with a grain of salt though. They can easily be hijacked by those who only want to push the poll meter in a certain direction.

It is interesting though with all the polls. It seems that all the extensive polls that have been conducted by media outlets will never ask the simple black and white question. They tend to muddy the questions with something that is a gray area. It is blatantly obvious though that the media are trying to side step the issue. It is like they are too afraid to reveal the true sentiment of what the public is feeling in case it puts a dint in their egos or bursts their agendas.
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 27/11/2009 19:07

And now for a change of pace; From the National Post, an interesting analysis.

How zealotry came to pervert climate science
Posted by: Arnost

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 28/11/2009 02:01

Originally Posted By: Arnost
"Melbourne 11 am Friday 27 Nov. A quick poll has indicated the Australian public are 81% against Emission Trading Tax and 7% are in favour. Yet we have both main political parties pushing for it. What is the modern definition of democracy?"

Anybody got any verification of these numbers?


Had a look for any type of poll in the media that asks the simple question: "Do you approve of the ETS as it stands?" Y/N or similar. Of course nothing - all the polls are about the leadership and who to support... Sometimes I wonder about our media...


I just came across this poll in the Daily Telly:


Even though it does not explicitly poll whether the CPRS is good or not and is somewhat slanted, (for example if I had to fairly answer the question I would vote yes), and then if the Libs are doing their own polling and it's showing the same, then it is no wonder that they can change their stance (and why Labor is not hammering them on it and forcing a vote)

Out of intrest, here is a poll that was done on the CPRS a bit before "Climategate"... Global Warming and CPRS Polling. The interesting thing is that even then the shifts toward "disapprove" in the Lib camp were marked.
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 28/11/2009 06:28

Somehow I think (or fear) that carriage of the issues the public should vote on will pass to the personalities, meaning people who might resolutely oppose the current ETS legislation might not ever, remotely, think of supporting candidates that hold social or cultural views they disapprove of. Cuts every which way you can think of too. The risks for all parties are very, very high in this sort of situation.

As a result, the science will be less than one percent of any election called in say, March, and Rudd's ETS, which isn't much different from Howard's ETS, will go along for the ride, doing nothing of any value whatsoever beyond delivering tax breaks for polluters from whomever wins.
Posted by: Cheers

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 28/11/2009 12:44

Originally Posted By: Keith
Originally Posted By: Cheers
Since Keith" Wilson Tuckey" ...


Not quite. He's a lot older than me.


I was definitely not thinking of his age,Keith
Posted by: Flying Binghi (2)

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 28/11/2009 17:12

Heres some 'news'

"...Malcolm Turnbull, leader of The Australian Opposition has been announced as the outstanding winner of the coveted Order of the Banker.

Victor Mosely, the chairman of the Bankers Awards committee, announced the win this evening, in anticipation of the passing of the Australian Emissions Trading Scheme. “This man has done more than anyone to improve future banking profits world wide”. When pointed out that it was merely an Australian scheme, Mosely replied, that “in the fraught lead up to Copenhagen he has done what no one else could, he’s given us hope.”

Carbon trading in 2008 was a $126 billion market. The CFTC in the United States was forecasting a trillion dollar market by 2012. More than ever, banks need help with their balance sheets, and nothing else will expand the power of financial houses as fast as carbon trading will....."



note, article satire. Full article via -
http://joannenova.com.au/2009/11/turnbull-awarded-order-of-the-bankers-prize-for-2009/
Posted by: marakai

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 28/11/2009 20:40


Satellites to monitor countries for climate change under Gordon Brown plan
An international satellite monitoring system to check countries comply with new climate change targets was proposed by Gordon Brown last night as a way of binding developing nations into a new deal on the environment.

Snip

Ahead of the UN-sponsored climate change conference in the Danish capital, Mr Brown proposed a £10 billion rich-world fund - to which Britain would contribute £800 million - to give incentives to developing countries to halt deforestation, develop low-carbon energy sources and prepare for the effects of a warmer climate.

To police the new deal satellites would monitor countries, like Papua New Guinea, Guyana and Indonesia, responsible for deforestation. Any country found not to be abiding by the deal would have their funding halted.

But some countries, not least China, are likely to be very wary of allowing international satellites to spy on their country.

The fund would cover the years 2010-12 and deliver funds to poorer states on a “payment by results” system, under which those which showed they were taking action to halt climate change would receive more cash.

Mr Brown added: “The deal would make sure that some of the poorest countries, who are most affected by climate change... can get help so they can mitigate climate change and adopt and make the changes that are necessary.”

Mr Brown will present his ideas to world leaders at the Copenhagen summit. He is confident that Barack Obama will endorse it, despite the American President only attending for a short period at the beginning rather than the end of the gathering.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/environ...Brown-plan.html
Posted by: Flying Binghi (2)

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 28/11/2009 21:05

Quote:
Britain would contribute £800 million


And i thought Britain was bankrupt.... but wait, theres the carbon scam funds.

If the dingbats get the carbon trading/tax scam up it wont be long before they max out the card so to speak and will need further funds to fund the never ending dingbat ideas people like Brown propose.
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 28/11/2009 21:43

I guess I am having real problems believing the unbelievable and astounding arrogance and ignorance of Brown.

Using satellites to gather information and intelligence is one thing but using satellites and then being so unbelievably arrogant that you imagine that you are so utterly righteous and so superior that you have the right to instruct other sovereign peoples and nations on what they can do and can't do, money or no money, is another thing altogether.

I really wonder what Brown's reaction will be when somebody like Iran, Zimbabwe, Russia, Syria, Somali or some other nation tells Brown, as a leader of a very wealthy developed nation to get his CO2 levels down or else bend over!

If Brown tries that arrogant stunt on Australia, I just hope our Labour government is not so supine and piss weak that they would fall for this but Rudd, being Rudd [ or Turncoat ] would probably bend over and say Yes Sir, it's all in a good cause, Yes sir!!



And the poms are finally starting to get fairly het up about the stinking heap of dung in their front garden.

The Telegraph;

Some of the comments from scientists of other disciplines are very interesting but you have to wade through a lot of BS in the comments to find the real interesting bits.
And there were a couple of members [ around 11 in the Team ] of the Team who tried to put the brakes on the entry of extremely rigid and radical personal ideologies into the CRU research that led to the deliberate and complete corruption of the data and research and came in the end to dominate the whole of the CRU "scientific" output and public statements.
Posted by: marakai

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 28/11/2009 22:08

It is unbelievable isn't it?. What is also astounding is the complete turnaround in the attitude of the people attending Copenhagen, just a week ago the feeling was that it would be a flop and that no agreement would be reached.
Bring in Climategate and all of a sudden heads are popping up everywhere with a change of heart, a nice big surge of climate doom scenarios in the MSM and Even the Queen attending CHOGOM to urge an agreement... my reading on it all is that they want it all sorted and installed before the hacked/leaked codes filter down to the general populations.
Posted by: mobihci

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 28/11/2009 23:57

does anyone have a link to this newspoll poll mentioned here?-

http://news.theage.com.au/breaking-news-...91128-jxbs.html

i cant find it on their site, and it seems to me to be very wrong.
Posted by: marakai

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 29/11/2009 00:03

Yeah I searched their page for ETS under latest polls


Quote:
search results 1 to 0 of 0

Sorry. There were no results found for your query.


http://www.newspoll.com.au/

strange huh
Posted by: marakai

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 29/11/2009 00:10

I found it, it's from 22/09/09

http://www.newspoll.com.au/cgi-bin/polli...ile&page=Search

Great piece of journalism that one.



Most Coalition voters back ETS: Newspoll
November 28, 2009 - 7:39AM
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It's been revealed that the Coalition faces an electoral wipeout at next year's federal election if the rebels led by Tony Abbott and Nick Minchin succeed in blocking the government's climate change legislation.

The Coalition could lose at least 20 of its metropolitan seats, including those of its leader Malcolm Turnbull, Treasury spokesman Joe Hockey and climate change critics Kevin Andrews and Andrew Robb, according to an analysis of Newspoll results, The Weekend Australian reports.

According to the analysis, support for the government's emissions trading scheme legislation is overwhelming among Coalition voters in metropolitan areas. Newspoll shows that 63 per cent of Coalition voters in the cities believe the government's bill should be passed, while only 28 per cent think it should be opposed.

If one in 10 of those voters changed sides because of a Coalition decision to block action on climate change, it would cost the Liberal Party the 20 metropolitan seats that it holds with margins of less than 6.5 per cent.

Senior party officials say the research shows a triumph by climate change sceptics would be "the death of the party".

Newspoll chief executive Martin O'Shannessy says the most worrying finding for the Coalition is that its voters aged 18 to 34 favour the government's legislation by a margin of almost five to one.

The Newspoll analysis shows that Coalition seats are not safe in rural areas either. A clear, though much smaller, majority is also in favour of the government's bill.

In rural seats, Newspoll found that 41 per cent of Coalition voters were opposed to the government's emissions trading scheme bill while 50 per cent were in favour.

http://news.theage.com.au/breaking-news-...91128-jxbs.html



Posted by: marakai

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 29/11/2009 00:46

One thing is encouraging tho this from the 23rd


Originally Posted By: marakai
Aus results Google Results 1 - 10 of about 207 for climategate. (0.23 seconds).

Web results Google Results 1 - 10 of about 78,600 for climategate. (0.07 seconds).


Most of the MSM have posted the expected minimal amount of info on the story, and have stayed true to their Red camouflaged in Green roots.



This from tonight


AUS Results 1 - 10 of about 8,740 for climategate. (0.35 seconds)


WEB Results 1 - 10 of about 11,600,000 for climategate. (0.15 seconds)



Not a bad increase for five days

The word is still getting out in spite of the reluctance of the MSM.

The only thing in our local rag today was a liftout section on
climate change
MANKINDS LAST CHANCE: Why humanity needs the Copenhagen climate Summit to Work.

Something for the dunny just in case (not for reading tho).
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 29/11/2009 07:31

Al Gore fuels climate change skeptics with cover of new book

Former vice president Al Gore has always been one of the more divisive figures in the debate about manmade climate change. As one of the most visible people sounding the alarm on climate change, he is quick to come under fire. His new book “Our Choice: A Plan to Solve the Climate Crisis” provides plenty of ammunition for global warming skeptics without them having to read even the first page


http://www.examiner.com/x-25061-Climate-Change-Examiner~y2009m11d20-Al-Gore-fuels-climate-change-skeptics-with-cover-of-new-book?cid=exrss-Climate-Change-Examiner
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 30/11/2009 06:50


Climate change denier Nick Griffin to represent EU at Copenhagen

BNP leader who believes climate change activists are 'cranks' will be member of European parliament's delegation






http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/nov/29/nick-griffin-bnp-copenhagen-summit
Posted by: adon

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 30/11/2009 11:02

Originally Posted By: marakai
One thing is encouraging tho this from the 23rd


Originally Posted By: marakai
Aus results Google Results 1 - 10 of about 207 for climategate. (0.23 seconds).

Web results Google Results 1 - 10 of about 78,600 for climategate. (0.07 seconds).


Most of the MSM have posted the expected minimal amount of info on the story, and have stayed true to their Red camouflaged in Green roots.



This from tonight


AUS Results 1 - 10 of about 8,740 for climategate. (0.35 seconds)


WEB Results 1 - 10 of about 11,600,000 for climategate. (0.15 seconds)



Not a bad increase for five days

The word is still getting out in spite of the reluctance of the MSM.

The only thing in our local rag today was a liftout section on
climate change
MANKINDS LAST CHANCE: Why humanity needs the Copenhagen climate Summit to Work.

Something for the dunny just in case (not for reading tho).


Now up to 13.1 million in a search this morning
Posted by: SBT

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 30/11/2009 11:46

ROFLMAO at the cover, hurricanes all over the place and not only has an entire state dissapeared (Newfoundland as pointed out in another forum) but with all that hurricane activity the contry is turning into a desert. Go figure? Where is all the rain falling from the hurricanes then? Hmm a hurricane without any rain is a ......? Wind storm maybe?
Posted by: Arnost

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 30/11/2009 12:55

jet-vapour-clouds-warming-planet-says-british-met-office
Posted by: adon

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 30/11/2009 14:00

Interesting Arnost. Wonder if they could get the aircraft to fly in a way to spread the cirrus more uniformally. Maybe they could get them to fly over areas forcast to be hot during the day. And over areas forecast to be cold at night! HEHEHE Amazing though that the article has more about cooling than heating yet the warming line makes the headline. Wonder how many thousands who just glance at the headlines thing that jets are cooking us???

I also seem to remember a similar experiment carried out in the US after 9/11. It was not reviewed very well. Why the difference to this one???
Posted by: Arnost

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 30/11/2009 14:07

I did think about the post 9/11 contrail study... There if you think about it then (if indeed cirrus both reflects incomming and traps / reflects outgoing radiation) the effect will be balanced during the day, but as there is no incomming radiation at night, only serve to trap the olr - basically raising the minimum temps...

I seem to recall some studies that looked at both max and mins and found the mins increasing faster than the maxes.

I have not had time to look for the study and only relying on the article - maybe later tonight. But still something else to keep an eye on / at the back of the mind.
Posted by: adon

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 30/11/2009 16:38

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEiLgbBGKVk

Not really news but funny anyway
Posted by: Flying Binghi (2)

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/12/2009 00:49

Oh well....after all the fuss, looks like we got what some commentators are calling a three horse race.

Dunno what sort of a race we gonna get.

To be humane to terminally ill Thoroughbred 'horse' Turnbull we probably should get the 'vet' to put him down.

CO2 sucking horse Hockey on closer examination appears to be a gelded ass...

All we be left with is horse Abbott. Horse Abbott appears to be of Aussie stock horse breed...don't look as good or run as fast as some, can have some bad habits, though, well suited to a bit of hard work when the going gets tough.

Interesting race it will be.....
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/12/2009 06:18

If you look for a consensus view on jet contrails it comes down to net cooling, that is, deflection on incoming radiation in sunlight, partially offset at night by increased thermal opacity. However contrails are transient, and what is modelled is never what is observed as the effects of dispersal by winds or even the motion of other jets comes into play.

The critical variable seems to be atmospheric humidity, without which contrails can't form on the fine soot ejected from modern engines. (This is quite different from the very early designs, which injected methanol/water into the atmosphere, and generated very dense contrails.)

The soot factor in jets is set to fall drastically in the newest power units, and there are for example, various images which show A380s and 777s in the vicinity of older jets at cruise altitude, much larger jets producing notably thinner contrails despite their increased size.

The experimental fuel blends in particular gas-to-liquid types further lower the soot factor. And algal fuels produce no soot, and will use no fossil sourced carbon.

The history of efficiency in current jet engine designs had nothing to do with AGW, and is 100% the result of pressure to come up with engines that are cheaper to run.
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/12/2009 08:07

Michael Mann first of climate change scientists to be investigated

The fallout from the Climategate event continues as one of its primary participants, Dr. Michael Mann, is to be investigated by his employer, Penn State University. Among the more than one thousand emails released on the Internet, Mann featured prominently in many of them oftentimes making rather controversial comments.

Mann serves as the director of the Earth System Science Center at Penn State and has long been one of the more controversial figures in the debate about manmade climate change. He is the author of the infamous ‘hockey stick’ graph which was used by Al Gore in “An Inconvenient Truth” but later was proven to be inaccurate.

http://www.examiner.com/x-25061-Climate-Change-Examiner~y2009m11d29-Michael-Mann-first-of-climate-change-scientists-to-be-investigated
Posted by: Keith

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/12/2009 09:52

Breaking news:

Hockey eliminated. Tony Abbott is the new Opposition leader.
Posted by: petethemoskeet

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/12/2009 10:11

Yeah goodbye ETS thank god
Posted by: adon

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/12/2009 10:20

Holy Hell! Well this will throw a cat in the pigeon cage! Bet this will trigger an election now. He will be smashed at the polls. Worldwide headlines will follow now.
Posted by: Cheers

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/12/2009 10:36

The Libs are gone for the next 2+ terms.
The Libs have just become a party of the 1950s.
The ETS is not gone just yet.There will be a DD.
The Labor party will win the next election with a big increase in the number of seats.
I have a great deal more respect for Turnbull.
I have NO respect for the likes of Abbort,etc.
I have NO respect for people who vote for the likes of these extreme right wing low lifes.
Posted by: petethemoskeet

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/12/2009 11:07

Cheers what makes you think the Labor party will win a DD with an increased majority.I think you'll find a vast majority of voters will not vote for a party that advocates for the ETS.A lot of people are beginning to see that it's purely another tax.
Posted by: Cheers

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/12/2009 11:35

Originally Posted By: petethemoskeet
Cheers what makes you think the Labor party will win a DD with an increased majority.I think you'll find a vast majority of voters will not vote for a party that advocates for the ETS.A lot of people are beginning to see that it's purely another tax.

I know that you are wrong.
The Labor will win on a number of factors,ETC.
1-ETS,the majority of the population agree that something needs to be done about climate change.
2-Work NO choices will be back on the agender aswell as other Howard policys
3-The extreme right wing (god on their side)zelots are dangerous & the majority people realise this.
4-The majority of the population don't like Abbort,etc & what they stand for.
Posted by: adon

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/12/2009 11:42

A pole taken on the weekend showed that the great majority of voters do not understand the details of an ETS and a majority want it to be deferred until they see what the rest of the world will do. I think that if a DD election does come, this will obviously be the number 1 issue and I think a lot of damage could be done to Krudd if he went ahead. Yes they would still win but I think the margin could be closer than you think Cheers. People do not like voting early. That would hurt him. There are a lot of other things that could hurt him too and all of this would be used against him.

The only reason why this has come to a head the way it has is the haste in which this was pushed. If the Labor party had done the right thing and let this VERY important bill be investigated and tested. Things maybe very different if Krudd was patient and not more focussed on grandstanding and his future ambitions

The game is now up and he will not have his little dream of being a trail blaser. He has the opportunity to now do this properly and consult with the people and truely get the best deal for us. He may have been blasing a trail to destruction
Posted by: MillthorpeSnow

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/12/2009 13:34

Interesting stance on a previous issue from a politician adamant there is no AGW.

from http://www.theaustralian.com.au/politics...f-1225805535960

*************************************************************

THERE must be something in the acronym ETS that makes leading climate change sceptic Nick Minchin see red.

In the mid 1990s, the letters ETS stood for environmental tobacco smoke or passive smoking, as evidence around the world increasingly linked side-stream smoke to lung cancers in non-smokers and respiratory illnesses in children. Medical scientists and health professionals lobbied for tougher anti-smoking laws.

They came to Canberra armed with research that rang alarm bells for the majority of the 1995 Senate committee investigating the cost of tobacco-related illnesses. The majority report favoured a raft of regulatory measures to reduce smoking in the community.

Two Liberal dissenters, Senator Minchin and the former West Australian senator Sue Knowles, opposed many of the recommendations, claiming the tobacco industry was over-regulated.

But Senator Minchin went further, distancing himself from scientific facts that are now accepted as medical orthodoxy.

"Senator Minchin wishes to record his dissent from the committee's statements that it believes cigarettes are addictive and that passive smoking causes a number of adverse health effects for non-smokers," the committee's minority report says. "Senator Minchin believes these claims (the harmful effects of passive smoking) are not yet conclusively proved. . . there is insufficient evidence to link passive smoking with a range of adverse health effects."

To support his claims, Senator Minchin drew on a study commissioned by the Tobacco Institute of Australia that "concluded the data did not support a causal relationship between exposure to environmental tobacco smoke (ETS) and lung cancer or heart disease in adults".

Senator Minchin's stance flew in the face of voluminous reports by the US Surgeon-General, the US Environmental Protection Agency and the Australian National Health and Medical Research Council, documenting nicotine's addictive hook and the serious health risks for people exposed to secondary cigarette smoke. Even the US and British tobacco companies acknowledged the health hazards from passive smoking in internal corporate research documents from the 1970s, obtained by the US congress and placed on the public record in 1995.

Simon Chapman, professor of public health at Sydney University, who appeared before the Senate committee, yesterday recalled other witnesses reeling with disbelief at Senator Minchin's "troglodyte" views.

"It was like going into a timewarp, because the case against the tobacco industry was so well-established by then," Professor Chapman said. "Minchin represented the far end of antipathy towards any intervention in the tobacco industry."
Posted by: SBT

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/12/2009 13:56

Simon Chapman, professor of public health at Sydney University, who appeared before the Senate committee, yesterday recalled other witnesses reeling with disbelief at Senator Minchin's "troglodyte" views.

Well some of it must have been adopted by the government because in the case of a veteran attempting to get passive smoking accepted as a disability caused by his or her military service they must be exposed for "no less than X,000 hours (broken up into not less than 8 hour days or 20 pack years) (20 smokes per day or a rate of 50g of tobacco products per 2 days x 365 = 1 pack year) to cigarette smoke of a density such that it is visbile to the naked eye in an enclosed space." If a fan was in operation in the room then the claim will get thrown out from lack of evidence. Just another example of the two faced farcical government which on one hand tells us quite rightly that smoking kills, causes heart disease, renal failure, etc and on the other refuses to believe a veteran that even though they didn't smoke the only way they could have got a smoking related disease is via passive smoking.

Is it any wonder that I treat them with contempt when they try to tell me about climate change being caused by humans? Jesus I hope a ceiling fan isn't taken into account or it will blow their theory out of the water too.
Posted by: Severely Tall

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/12/2009 13:56

Its time Rudd showed his Cahones...Australia needs an election to decide whether affirmative action on climate change is required...in effect the election could come down to whether people believe or do not in the concept....finally an issue which truly splits the two parties. I tend to lean towards the side of action...even if it is just a cautionary action...but I wish they would use an appropriate method rather than a dopey ETS. In effect I would like to see an election over the best way to act whether it be an ETS or something else rather than coming down to believers and non-believers.
Posted by: adon

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/12/2009 14:40

OK ST well I aprach this from a different angle. I think AGW is crap and therefore I would vote against the ETS and therefor the Govt(would anyway even if ETS not an issue). However I think that an effort to shift our energy production away from fossil fuels is a good idea. Also more efficient housing and water saving etc. Moving away from fossil fuels(esp oil) but it is more along the lines of national security and self reliance

Thing is that the ETS and all that comes with it is the deal breaker for me. I know that it will not make any difference at all there therefor there is no reason to pay tax on something that will make no difference. Even Ms Wong cannot say how much of an effect this will have. We don't know what the rest of the world will do and there is yet another reason to sit back and wait.

Then you factor in that the data that has been used to "prove" our impending doom had been diddled and played with. Then the original data thown out. This just screams scam to me and makes me even more suspicious of this new religion in our midst.

A DD election would leave the door open for some very dirty laundry to step out of the closet and I thing Krudd would be wary of this. Even if this election does come, It will change nothing as this will not be sorted by Copenhagen so the "rush" is over. He cannot puff out his chest to the world and pretend he is more important than he really is. I tend to think this will not result in an election. This would allow the opposition to air ads about climategate and flood the people with doubts along with many other things that have annoyed the people. Let us not forget that they have gone from a healthy surplus to a record debt in record time and this wpould hurt him badly.
Posted by: Keith

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/12/2009 14:43

Is Copenhagen binding on us if the ETS is deferred?
Posted by: adon

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/12/2009 14:51

Well the US bill is also stuck in it's senate and will not be passed(if it is) until next year. China is only saying it will try to slow emissions growth and Europe are in la la land. This will most likley end up another Kyoto.
Posted by: adon

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/12/2009 15:10

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424...ections_opinion

Snip:
Consider the case of Phil Jones, the director of the CRU and the man at the heart of climategate. According to one of the documents hacked from his center, between 2000 and 2006 Mr. Jones was the recipient (or co-recipient) of some $19 million worth of research grants, a sixfold increase over what he'd been awarded in the 1990s.


Snip:
Thus, the European Commission's most recent appropriation for climate research comes to nearly $3 billion, and that's not counting funds from the EU's member governments. In the U.S., the House intends to spend $1.3 billion on NASA's climate efforts, $400 million on NOAA's, and another $300 million for the National Science Foundation. The states also have a piece of the action, with California—apparently not feeling bankrupt enough—devoting $600 million to their own climate initiative. In Australia, alarmists have their own Department of Climate Change at their funding disposal.


Snip:
And all this is only a fraction of the $94 billion that HSBC Bank estimates has been spent globally this year on what it calls "green stimulus"—largely ethanol and other alternative energy schemes—of the kind from which Al Gore and his partners at Kleiner Perkins hope to profit handsomely.


Now compare this to the "skeptic side"

Snip:
Last year, ExxonMobil donated $7 million to a grab-bag of public policy institutes, including the Aspen Institute, the Asia Society and Transparency International. It also gave a combined $125,000 to the Heritage Institute and the National Center for Policy Analysis, two conservative think tanks that have offered dissenting views on what until recently was called—without irony—the climate change "consensus."

WOW seems like the wrong side being attacked for being in the pockets of intresr groups
Posted by: Arnost

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/12/2009 15:18

Severly Tall:
Quote:
In effect I would like to see an election over the best way to act whether it be an ETS or something else rather than coming down to believers and non-believers.


I sort of agree with that… however, you will need to get the media on side. Nowhere did I see a poll ask the very sensible question: “do you support the CPRS legislation as it currently stands?” All polls were along the line do you support the climate change realists or the deniers – which does not provide a good feel of voter’s real sentiments.

The ETS/CPRS is pretty much well a transfer of wealth by way of a new tax from the Australian middle class the top end corporates and the welfare dependent - with some spill-over to third world nations. (Plus waste through the funding of a huge bureaucracy required to manage this and the investment banks take.) And of course for little or no benefit vis-à-vis reduction in CO2 emissions.

A realistic platform for an election would be to provide options that actually address the issue – but without the economic impacts. It would also have to be reversible. An ETS / CPRS once entrenched would be very difficult to unwind.

So what are the solutions? There are two options immediately apparent: A pigouvian tax on CO2 or an increase in GST with proceeds (in both cases) directly channelled to renewable / alternate energy investment. At the same time you put a policy where you propose to cut through the green tape and replacing coal power with nuclear until such times as the renewable / alternates are on line and economically viable. (I would favour the increase in GST as there is no need for additional bureaucracy etc but probably a harder sell…)

Which brings me to the why you need the media on side. Without getting a referendum type question (Go nuclear y/n) and getting a true mandate to get this, there is no way that this can get up. And Labor will not put the (CPRS/ETS y/n) question to a referendum. Without a clear answer to this, you can not move forward with more sensible and effective solutions…
Posted by: adon

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/12/2009 15:47

That's where the true green idealists got sucked into this. Politics was never going to actually go full steam for fixing a global problem. Early on, they smelt the scent of massive tax dollars in this stuff and they went for it. Ask anybody for their ideas to reduce emissions and only MPs and bankers or traders will say cap and trade. Most will take the green line of solar, wind and walking. By bringing politics into the fight has shifted the focus from alternatives to tax. Pity really, the real fight has been lost in the smoke and haze of political war.

There is no easy way to get change and this should be a lesson that politics is not the answer. Instead of getting something in place that would actually lower co2 content that would best suit all players will now be lost in politics and egos. You will not see a good clean fight on this as there are far too many other factors effecting are in play. Even if a referendum on this were held, and no other factors were in it, egos of the people who thought up this scheme would be out to keep their heads out of the dung and those opposing them would be out to discredit them. An independant body(just about impossible these days) would have to word the question so not to allow prevocative words to be usd and the real guts of the issue.
Posted by: davidg

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/12/2009 17:18

Originally Posted By: Severely Tall
Its time Rudd showed his Cahones...Australia needs an election to decide whether affirmative action on climate change is required...in effect the election could come down to whether people believe or do not in the concept....finally an issue which truly splits the two parties. I tend to lean towards the side of action...even if it is just a cautionary action...but I wish they would use an appropriate method rather than a dopey ETS. In effect I would like to see an election over the best way to act whether it be an ETS or something else rather than coming down to believers and non-believers.


Yeah good call ST. I think its important to focus on re-newable/cleaner energy technologies regardless of AWG and its associated political weight. I think the ETS system wont even acheive the very objectives set in place for it i.e. a statistically significant reduction in C02 emissions, promotoion of renewable technologies.

It would not be in the interests of those running and trading within the scheme to promote "green energy" technologies. This would only reduce the amount of capital outlayed by companies under the new scheme and mean smaller returns for these so called C02 accountants or C02 Brokers. The cost of setting entirely new systems in place for the generation of energy and the manufacture of consumer products would be far greater than simply paying for the priviledge to pollute, so i see little incentive for industry to "clean up its act". I fail to see the governments incentive for promoting more renewable technologies as this would mean a reduction in the amount of tax received from any such scheme. Overall there is no real incentive for the developement and promotion of supposed "green industries" and with so many exceptions being made for heavy polluters such as coal and oil companies, C02 emissions will not be headed.
Posted by: marakai

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/12/2009 18:22

What does all this have to do with climate catastrophe? The answer brings us to a scandal that is, in my opinion, considerably greater than that implied in the hacked emails from the Climate Research Unit (though perhaps not as bad as their destruction of raw data): namely the suggestion that the very existence of warming or of the greenhouse effect is tantamount to catastrophe. This is the grossest of "bait and switch" scams. It is only such a scam that lends importance to the machinations in the emails designed to nudge temperatures a few tenths of a degree.

The notion that complex climate "catastrophes" are simply a matter of the response of a single number, GATA, to a single forcing, CO2 (or solar forcing for that matter), represents a gigantic step backward in the science of climate. Many disasters associated with warming are simply normal occurrences whose existence is falsely claimed to be evidence of warming. And all these examples involve phenomena that are dependent on the confluence of many factors.

Our perceptions of nature are similarly dragged back centuries so that the normal occasional occurrences of open water in summer over the North Pole, droughts, floods, hurricanes, sea-level variations, etc. are all taken as omens, portending doom due to our sinful ways (as epitomized by our carbon footprint). All of these phenomena depend on the confluence of multiple factors as well.

Consider the following example. Suppose that I leave a box on the floor, and my wife trips on it, falling against my son, who is carrying a carton of eggs, which then fall and break. Our present approach to emissions would be analogous to deciding that the best way to prevent the breakage of eggs would be to outlaw leaving boxes on the floor. The chief difference is that in the case of atmospheric CO2 and climate catastrophe, the chain of inference is longer and less plausible than in my example.

Mr. Lindzen is professor of meteorology at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703939404574567423917025400.html
Posted by: marakai

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/12/2009 19:42

?
Posted by: marakai

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/12/2009 19:43

?
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/12/2009 20:12

A double dissolution onn the ETS would be interesting indeed...A coaltion vote winner imo, Labour would do poorly on that one, again imo and from what I hear and see!
Posted by: Keith

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/12/2009 20:35

I suppose the main reason a double dissolution could ensue is that technically a blocking of the legislation would be withholding of Supply. But I can't see any government going to the polls purely on this economic aspect. To do so would mean that Mr Rudd would be admitting to the people that the ETS is a form of tax, playing right into what Abbott has been saying. He (Mr Rudd) would therefore have to have a far better reason than taking that sort of a risk. He would succeed better if it were part of the 2010-2011 Budget. He couldn't justify a double dissolution on the grounds of the opinions of either GW supporters or deniers, nor those of scientists in either camp. It would be unconstitutional. If the Liberals dilly-dally around too long however, by deferring and holding up the legislation, they just might end up with the ETS in the next Budget. If that is blocked, then we'd see the risk of a snap poll in around 12 months' time.
Posted by: adon

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/12/2009 22:07

By the sounds of it, the bill will be blocked as the greens are saying they would not back a deferral and same goes for the nats. So I suspect that it would be goin to a vote soon. However we may see Labour switch and defer to give them time to do as you say Kieth. If(IMO when) Copenhagen fails it would play right into the hands of Abbott and this would justify his position but after that if the science(climategate) goes badly for AGW then this would make a DD election void. And Abbott would have a field day on it. If the summit goes OK and the scandal is brushed under the carpet(likley IMO) then Rudd will have a field day on Abbott. Very interesting times ahead and nothing they can do about it. Waiting IMO is the best thing to do for both sides.

But we all seem to agree on one thing.... an ETS will not do anything but make a "great big money-go-round"(quoting Abbott) and traders and banks will be the only ones doing well out of it apart from the Govt.

The only reason for this push was to grandstand and now that has failed there is no need to rush in and a better way can be found that does not damage us so badly. Whether our pig headed little leader sees this is another matter entirely. But it will be played out GST style if it goes to a DD election that's for sure. We all know how Hewson went in that little disaster now don't we....
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/12/2009 22:53

The good ship Copenhagen is on the rocks.
The crew will continue to make a lot of loud noise.
The passengers will tell everybody what a good time they are having and then slink off with their mates to bitch and whine about the unspeakables down the corridor.
The green spuikers will trample everybody with their spin on the this time only special offers never to be repeated buy now 10%
off your carbon trades.
The bankers will be shouting everybody at the bar as the good ship Copenhagen slowly slides ever deeper into the bottomless slime.

Times of India;
Copenhagen conference: India, China plan joint exit.

Finis! Kaput!
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 02/12/2009 06:21

As I suggested some time back, the science issues have been totally submerged by politics and culture wars.

The issue attachment factor is in play again. If you support the science of greenhouse gas exacerbation by the released of fossil sourced carbon you are automatically slandered as supporting a whole range of other issues, or even, gasp, being a tree hugger or Volvo driver, or whatever.

This nonsense will now clog the debate to a standstill.

It will not change the need for new energy technology and continued research. But it will bring glee to those that are anti-science, and believe that 'ordinary' citizens like themselves don't need no science to know wot's right.
Posted by: Arnost

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 02/12/2009 08:50

And who's fault is that Ben? Let me answer - it's the media's...

We depended on the media to be the watchdog and it's failed
us badly. They have not asked the right questions in what seems like on purpose.

Science will survive - it's the MSM that has signed it's own death warrant.
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 02/12/2009 10:08

Arnost,

There is much to criticise in the media coverage of these issue. And I've often joined in those criticisms.

However there is also a school of criticism which I think reflects anger at the media not telling people things that support particular views or agendas, something not unknown to either extremes either.

We occasionally see posts here quoting a media report yet saying in effect why doesn't the media draw attention to the contents of the report.

You can often find coverage to suit your views, often quite different views, between the covers of the same publication. Or you can be disturbed by reports that are either infuriatingly neutral or balanced. Or just poorly written, or clearly inaccurate in some particular detail.

I think one of the most useful features of the on-line media services is that the source material can be linked in the report, allowing critical comparison with the interpretation and also providing for further reading.
Posted by: Arnost

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 02/12/2009 15:45

Because excess CO2 dissolves in the ocean—causing it to “acidify” — researchers have been concerned about the ability of certain organisms to maintain the strength of their shells.

Interesting article on this:

http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=7545&tid=282&cid=63809&ct=162

Data & observation trumps theory...?
Posted by: SBT

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 02/12/2009 17:00

But surely all the added fresh water from the melting polar ice caps/glaciers etc flowing intoi the ocean and causing sea level rises would negate the increase in CO2 and there by nullify any added absorbion of said C02?



(Do you know that was so easy to type even with my tounge so firmly planted in my cheek it wasn't funny?) grin
Posted by: Arnost

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 02/12/2009 17:43

LOL smile
Posted by: marakai

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 02/12/2009 18:40

This is an interesting read, from mark halle and UNEP




SNIP
The environment should compete with religion as the
only compelling, value-based narrative available to
humanity. To do that, however, it will have to make
itself relevant well beyond the world of those already
concerned with the environment, including very
prominently its own formal constituency. Indeed,
unless UNEP succeeds in recasting the debate, it is
highly likely that the economic community will do
it—badly, and on its own terms. It is already
happening in the field of climate change.
The world will be driven by the decisions made by
investors and consumers. UNEP must work out who
best influences investment decisions and address
them; it must identify what influences consumer
choice, and focus on influencing that.

http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/113009_IISDreport.pdf
Posted by: marakai

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 02/12/2009 21:08

LMAO

Or as Marc Hendrickx puts it:

This frenzied response has spawned a new type of Climate Alarmist: the Climate Dementor...Similarly Climate Dementors are not only determined to scare us witless about an imagined impending climate catastrophe, they also want to suck all the joy and happiness out of our lives in the process.

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/


Remind you of anyone?
Posted by: Anemoi

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 02/12/2009 22:39


Understanding the reality of the ecological systems upon which all life depends counts for something.


Everything's dried up and communities begin to crack
November 28, 2009
Everything's dried up

‘‘The fairest thing would’ve been to let [the river] run till everyone’s out’’ ... Rod Middleton rescues a sheep bogged in mud on his property near Lake Cargelligo.

‘‘The fairest thing would’ve been to let [the river] run till everyone’s out’’ ... Rod Middleton rescues a sheep bogged in mud on his property near Lake Cargelligo. Photo: Wolter Peeters

River flows are being cut, and many will go without, writes Josephine Tovey.

FISH lie belly-up on the cracked bed of Lake Cargelligo. Like the lake it is built around, the town is drying out.

Lake Cargelligo, a settlement of 1300 in the geographical heart of NSW, was once a holiday haven for swimmers and waterskiers. Now empty shops line the street and even the post office is for sale.
Posted by: SBT

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 02/12/2009 23:35

Realising that drought is the normal weather condition in Australia and that rainfall above the average is the abnormal event.

Get rid of your European thinking about agriculture in Australia, learn to work with the land and the prevailing condions and not expend untold wealth, human effort and misery trying to change the unchangable. When farmers/consumers and politicians in Australia can accomplish that, the land and country will flourish and not just survive.
Posted by: marakai

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 02/12/2009 23:52

Originally Posted By: Anemoi

Understanding the reality of the ecological systems upon which all life depends counts for something.


Everything's dried up and communities begin to crack
November 28, 2009
Everything's dried up

‘‘The fairest thing would’ve been to let [the river] run till everyone’s out’’ ... Rod Middleton rescues a sheep bogged in mud on his property near Lake Cargelligo.

‘‘The fairest thing would’ve been to let [the river] run till everyone’s out’’ ... Rod Middleton rescues a sheep bogged in mud on his property near Lake Cargelligo. Photo: Wolter Peeters

River flows are being cut, and many will go without, writes Josephine Tovey.

FISH lie belly-up on the cracked bed of Lake Cargelligo. Like the lake it is built around, the town is drying out.

Lake Cargelligo, a settlement of 1300 in the geographical heart of NSW, was once a holiday haven for swimmers and waterskiers. Now empty shops line the street and even the post office is for sale.



Australia's Geological history is a history of drought and flood Anemoi, how do think that lake Eyre formed or turned to a salt pan? Why is the centre of Aus covered in red dirt?

Answer: Climate change which happened way before the concept of the wheel let alone Co2. If you dont understand that then I recommend you do some research on the reality of the Australian ecological systems.
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 03/12/2009 06:33

Climate change and global warming have more to do with politics than science

The problem with the global warming debate is that there never really has been a debate … until now.

Think back to when you first heard about global warming. For many people, global warming first became a significant issue when former Vice-president Al Gore released the documentary An Inconvenient Truth. In large part as a result of Al Gore’s film, environmentalists everywhere were quick to declare an end to the debate over global warming before such a debate even began.

The fact that many scientists have disputed claims over man-caused global warming seems not to matter to environmentalists or liberal politicians with a “green” agenda. The media for the most part have also been advocates for Al Gore and the global warming movement— frequently hyping scientific data supporting the left wing agenda while ignoring any data to the contrary.

http://www.examiner.com/x-28541-Kissimmee-Conservative-Examiner~y2009m12d1-Climate-change-and-global-warming-have-more-to-do-with-politics-than-science
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 03/12/2009 06:36

"I love a sunburnt country, a land of sweeping plains, of ragged mountain ranges, of droughts and flooding rains," runs a famous poem. You ever heard of this poem anemoi???

My Country (1908)

The love of field and coppice,
Of green and shaded lanes.
Of ordered woods and gardens
Is running in your veins,
Strong love of grey-blue distance
Brown streams and soft dim skies
I know but cannot share it,
My love is otherwise.

I love a sunburnt country,
A land of sweeping plains,
Of ragged mountain ranges,
Of droughts and flooding rains.
I love her far horizons,
I love her jewel-sea,
Her beauty and her terror -
The wide brown land for me!


A stark white ring-barked forest
All tragic to the moon,
The sapphire-misted mountains,
The hot gold hush of noon.
Green tangle of the brushes,
Where lithe lianas coil,
And orchids deck the tree-tops
And ferns the warm dark soil.

Core of my heart, my country!
Her pitiless blue sky,
When sick at heart, around us,
We see the cattle die- gather,

But then the grey clouds
And we can bless again
The drumming of an army,
The steady, soaking rain.

Core of my heart, my country!
Land of the Rainbow Gold,
For flood and fire and famine,
She pays us back threefold-

Over the thirsty paddocks,
Watch, after many days,
The filmy veil of greenness
That thickens as we gaze.

An opal-hearted country,
A wilful, lavish land-
All you who have not loved her,
You will not understand-
Though earth holds many splendours,
Wherever I may die,
I know to what brown country
My homing thoughts will fly.

Dorothea Mackellar
Posted by: Anemoi

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 03/12/2009 10:54

I have little doubt at all that humans have contributed significantly to climate change (locally and globally), through CO2(and other greenhouse gas) emissions, land clearance and degradation.

So some of you reckon you knew these folks and their communties and towns would be stuffed because, well, that is just the way Australia is eh?

Again completely no-evidence of any real sort to support a thesis for it being part of a 'natural cycle', nor any valid explanation for what might forcing things to be drier and hotter... hottest november ever recorded for NSW and Vic?

Here's something else from the other side of the world to chew on as well.

Heatwave puts Moscow's white Christmas on hold
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/12/03/2760470.htm
Posted 2 hours 16 minutes ago

There is no dreaming of a white Christmas in Russia's capital yet, as record temperatures in Moscow ward off any sign of snow.

The calendar may show winter has arrived, but the thermometer in Moscow indicates otherwise.

The city's weather has been melting records, with a maximum temperature on Wednesday afternoon of 8.5 degrees Celsius. That's 1.4C higher than the previous record set in 1898.

And there may be more record highs on the way.

Alexey Lyakhov, the director of the city's weather bureau, has told the ABC the temperature could reach 9C on Thursday.

Usually at this time of the year, he says, the average is -6.1C.

Alexey Lyakhov forecasts that chillier weather - and maybe some snow - will hit Moscow in a couple of days.
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 03/12/2009 10:58

http://www.dailyexpress.co.uk/posts/view/143573
That should stir up both sides!

Meanwhile the temps go up and down, as normal, all over the world, cold an hot, wet and dry, cycles continue, nothing new under the sun!
Posted by: SBT

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 03/12/2009 13:43

http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/cli...0-1225806539742 seems the CSIRO are not above self censoring reports that cast the present government in a less than favourable light.
Posted by: SBT

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 03/12/2009 14:07

Weather records are broken every day. Highest, lowest, tempratures, most or least amount of rain strongest wind gusts to dust storms etc. Ice breaks of the ice shelf yet larger snow falls are occuring in other areas.

Its called weather and it is dynamic. If it wasn't we wouldn't exist in our present form nor would our crops grow, the planet wouldn't continue to evolve and this forum wouldn't exist.

I doubt very much that humans have had anywhere near as much influence on todays weather that you seem to think. But that is just my opnion. Consensus by shonky scientists, influenced by the greed of governments/banks/business do not, in my humble opinion, make it a fact nor does it make it the truth. But like I said it is just my opinion.
Posted by: Canberra's Weather

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 03/12/2009 14:13

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=979182

Are they finally waking up to the fact that the whole approach is flawed? You can't keep going on making "compromises", it simply won't work.
Posted by: Anemoi

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 03/12/2009 14:24

Hundreds of heat records are not broken everyday, or every year.
Again more apparently completely unsubstantiated excuses and speculation instead any real knowledge...
It's the cycles, man, whatever they are, we can't explain, but it'll do for an excuse?

It is completley false and deceitful to suggest that, given that 8 out of 10 of the hottest years ever recorded by humans have been in this currently short century, things are just the same as ever.

This is not about data or models, or opinionated armchair experts versus people who actually do real scientific research.
This about real people, places, dying rivers and land.

Something else to chew on, this time for Qlders
How would you feel about 8hrs backup water supply for your town/community.
Tomorrow morning, it could all be gone.

Still funny?

............................

Warning hits home in town bearing brunt of big dry
COSIMA MARRINER
December 3, 2009
warning-hits-home-in-town-bearing-brunt-of-big-dry

JENNIFER Tunley got a shock when news broke that her town of Dalby, in Queensland's Darling Downs, had just eight hours' supply of water left this week.

''We hadn't heard how drastic our water situation was until now,'' Mrs Tunley said. ''There was a bit of panic.''

Dalby council's warning that the rich agricultural area was in danger of running dry was a stark reminder that much of Australia remains in the grip of severe drought. Western townships have yet to receive the drought-breaking rains that have fallen along the eastern seaboard.

''A lot of people in the big cities don't think about what's happening out in the back paddock,'' Dalby Mayor Ray Brown said. ''As soon as you hit that big hill on the other side of the Great Dividing Range, it's dry. We're the head waters of the Murray-Darling system, and there's no water in the Murray-Darling.''

With the Condamine River nearly dry and rainfall half the annual average, Dalby is relying on treated water from underground bores. But the town's desalination plant can only supply 4.5 million litres a day, compared with the 6 million litres used in a recent heatwave.

Ten consecutive days of temperatures above 35 degrees nearly left the town's reservoir dry this week. As supply rapidly dwindled, the council was monitoring the situation hourly, and preparing to ban all water use outside the home.

''If people continue to use that [amount of water], we could get to the stage where there won't be any water left,'' Mr Brown said. He said it was impossible to bring in enough water to satisfy the demands of a population of 12,000.
...
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 03/12/2009 15:09

Strange that some here have forgotten the claims of a bitter US winter (60 feet of snow on October 16) and the 30 feet of sea ice survey in the Arctic earlier this year.

But here's an interesting article, which we might wilfully head line as James Hansen backs Tony Abbott (!)

James Hansen slams Copenhagen

Hansen tries to keep the focus on the issue of fossil carbon release, not non-science that is wheeled out from either side of the debate. Of course those who dare to stick to core science issues tend to get their heads kicked.
Posted by: Keith

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 03/12/2009 16:27

So too, did the several thousand scientists who dissented from IPCC, if I recall correctly, and not just their heads either.
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 03/12/2009 17:00


Keith is right I think about those who dissented from the IPCC, although those ranks include those who regard to threat to the environment as either more or less serious than the threat that the IPCC presents to truth in science.

There is a need to decouple or unhook dislike of the IPCC from views as to where the science is taking us. There are some, in fact I spoke to several only last week, who are acutely aware of the dangers of excessive releases of fossilised carbon but furious about the behaviour of the IPCC.

They feel really pressured. On one hand they have to deal with 'supporters' who say the issues are so settled there really is no need for the science (including some in the IPCC) and on the other hand fend off ingrained deniers who hate or despise the science for what it is telling them. They are thus trapped between two sets of closed minds.
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 03/12/2009 18:58

While I agree with Jim Hansens statement on Copenhagen failing, I don't agree with much else...
And I like the little added advertisemnt at the bottom!!!
"James Hansen's book Storms of My Grandchildren is published by Bloomsbury, £18.99:"
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 03/12/2009 19:45

http://themigrantmind.blogspot.com/2009/10/1880-1930-hot-1950-2000-cold-extreme.html
Just posting this, take it or leave it!
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 03/12/2009 20:43

UK climate scientist to temporarily step down

LONDON (AP) -- Britain's University of East Anglia says the director of its prestigious Climatic Research Unit is stepping down pending an investigation into allegations that he overstated the case for man-made climate change.

The university says Phil Jones will relinquish his position until the completion of an independent review into allegations that he worked to alter the way in which global temperature data was presented.

The allegations were made after more than a decade of correspondence between leading British and U.S. scientists were posted to the Web following the security breach last month.

The e-mails were seized upon by some skeptics of man-made climate change as proof that scientists are manipulating the data about its extent.

http://www.technologyreview.com/wire/24047/?nlid=2569
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 03/12/2009 21:02

Anemoi, Here's evidence from a renowned scientist with evidence that CO2 doesn't cause warming. And the human records are nothing to rely on re history, 150 years is a 1/2 blink of an eye in even human history. What excuse will you use when the real cooling set's in (heaven forbid), but maybe, just maybe, you could be swayed to be more flexible in your approach??


Climate change 'sceptic' Ian Plimer argues CO2 is not causing global warming

Professor Ian Plimer, a geologist from Adelaide University, argues that a recent rise in temperature around the world is caused by solar cycles and other "extra terrestrial" forces.

He said carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, widely blamed for global warming, is a natural phenomenon caused by volcanoes erupting.
"We cannot stop carbon emissions because most of them come from volcanoes," he said. "It is a normal element cycled around in the earth and my science, which is looking back in time, is saying we have had a planet that has been a green, warm wet planet 80 per cent of the time. We have had huge climate change in the past and to think the very slight variations we measure today are the result of our life - we really have to put ice blocks in our drinks."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthne...al-warming.html
Posted by: Flying Binghi (2)

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 03/12/2009 22:14

Quote:
Something else to chew on, this time for Qlders
How would you feel about 8hrs backup water supply for your town/community.
Tomorrow morning, it could all be gone...

...With the Condamine River nearly dry and rainfall half the annual average, Dalby is relying on treated water from underground bores. But the town's desalination plant can only supply 4.5 million litres a day, compared with the 6 million litres used in a recent heatwave.

Ten consecutive days of temperatures above 35 degrees nearly left the town's reservoir dry this week. As supply rapidly dwindled, the council was monitoring the situation hourly, and preparing to ban all water use outside the home.

''If people continue to use that [amount of water], we could get to the stage where there won't be any water left,'' Mr Brown said. He said it was impossible to bring in enough water to satisfy the demands of a population of 12,000.



Do the sums on that one.... 6,000,000 litres used in one day by 12,000 people... equals 500 litres per person. .....Hmmm, ah wonder if that new ethanol plant at Dalby got anything to do with things....

Anemoi, can i suggest to you that droughts and global warming hysterics have nothing to do with Dalby's water woes.

Sounds to me that somebody not been increasing the towns water supplies to match the increasing population and industry growth. That global warming thingy is a good catch all for for diverting attention from some poor planning.



.
Posted by: marakai

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 03/12/2009 22:19

Is a Warm climate better for us than a Cold one?


They found that mortality was lowest at 14.3-17.3°C in north Finland but at 22.7-25.7°C in Athens. Mean annual heat related mortalities were 304 (95% confidence interval 126 to 482) in North Finland, 445 (59 to 831) in Athens, and 40 (13 to 68) in London. Cold related mortalities were 2457 (1130 to 3786), 2533 (965 to 4101), and 3129 (2319 to 3939) respectively in these regions. Generally - there are from ~5-15X more deaths due to Cold, than due to Warm Events. Populations in Europe have adjusted successfully to mean summer temperatures ranging from 13.5°C to 24.1°C, and can be expected to adjust to global warming predicted for the next half century with little sustained increase in heat related mortality. Active measures to accelerate adjustment to hot weather could minimise temporary rises in heat related mortality, and measures to maintain protection against cold in winter could permit substantial reductions in overall mortality as temperatures rise. A similar study of eleven large cities in the eastern USAshowed that current and recent days' temperatures were the weather components most strongly predictive of mortality. Mortality risk generally decreased as temperature increased from the coldest days to a specific threshold temperature, which varied by latitude. Above these 'local' thresholds mortality risk increased as temperature increased - a typical U-Shaped Stress Response found in most species.


http://sharpgary.org/Warm%20Vs%20Cold%20Deaths.html
Posted by: marakai

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 03/12/2009 22:40

And another

We are all aware that the Forces of Darkness have concocted a range of apocalyptic visions
of the future, and have used those visions to try to force us to have cold showers, amongst
other things. As it turns out, my climate prediction is even more apocalyptic, and more
immediate, than those of the Forces of Darkness.
Let’s look at the effect on Canadian grain production, as an example. My work, first
published in Energy and Environment last year, predicts a two degree decline in annual
average temperature for the mid-latitudes, equating to the experience of the Dalton
Minimum.
Figure 8 is a map of the Spring Wheat areas of the Canadian Prairies. It conforms to the
area in which the July daily average temperature is in the range of 16 to 20 degrees
centigrade. A two degree decline in temperature will halve the growing area, with
production going from 22 million tonnes per annum to perhaps 10 million tonnes per
annum. Similar effects can be expected through Russia and into northern Europe.
In theological terms, the global warming belief system is a reversion to animism. It is like
the Old Testament story of Moses going out into the desert and coming back to find the
Israelites worshipping a golden calf. We on the rational side of science know to worship a
higher god – the Sun. I, for one, examine its auguries on a daily basis, specifically looking
for the first sunspot of Solar Cycle 24. If Solar Cycle 23 was a normal cycle, 10.7 years
long, then we would have seen the first sunspot of Solar Cycle 24, at a high latitude and
with reversed polarity, in January 2006 and solar minimum would have been in January
2007.
http://74.125.153.132/search?q=cache:VWxySplNYnoJ:www.lavoisier.com.au/articles/greenhouse-science/solar-cycles/ArchibaldLavoisierAGM.pdf+crop+production+warm+versus+cold&cd=8&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au&client=firefox-a

But in the interest of Balance there is this.

The impact of El Niño-southern oscillation (ENSO) on Indian foodgrain production was analysed for the period 1950-99. The inverse relationship between sea-surface temperature (SST) anomalies from June to August (JJA) over the NINO3 sector of the tropical Pacific Ocean and Indian foodgrain production anomalies (r = -0.50) was significant at the 1% level. During the warm ENSO phase, the total foodgrain production frequently decreased (12 out of 13 years) by I to 15%. In 10 out of 13 cold ENSO-phase years, the total foodgrain production increased from normal. The relationship between the SST-based NINO3 ENSO index and the Kharif season (June-September) foodgrain production anomalies (r = -0.52) was greater than for the Rabi season (October-February) foodgrain production (r = -0.27). The ENSO impact on rice production was greatest among the individual crops. The average drop in rice (Kharif season crop) production during a warm ENSO-phase year was 3.4 million tonnes (7%). In a cold ENSO-phase year the average production increase was 1.3 million tones (3%). Wheat (Rabi season crop) production was also influenced by ENSO, as it depends on the carryover soil water storage from the Kharif season. Sorghum and chickpea production are not significantly influenced by ENSO extremes. Inter-annual fluctuation of the gross value of Indian foodgrain production was very large, reducing up to US$2183 million in a warm ENSO year and increasing up to US$1251 million in a cold ENSO year. On average, a warm ENSO year costs US$773 million and a cold ENSO year had a financial gain of US$437 million from normal. The cumulative probability distributions of foodgrain production anomalies during cold and warm ENSO phases are shifted positively or negatively, relative to the neutral distribution. The warm ENSO forcing significantly (1% level) reduced the probability of above-average production. The cold ENSO forcing moderately increased the above-average foodgrain production over the neutral ENSO phase (5% level). A simple conditional probability forecast based on annual and JJA NINO3 SST predicted the category of foodgrain production in 11 of the 14 years. The results demonstrated that the relationship between NINO3 ENSO index and foodgrain production could be used for agricultural applications and policy decisions on food security for the rapidly growing population in India.

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=14520050

So not necessarily whats good for the Goose etc.
Posted by: aerology

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 04/12/2009 03:58


If we start with the studies of what works in climate forecasting, the Milankavitch cycles, and expand on what has turned out to be true about solar cycles according to Theodor Landscheidt, ( the only one to correctly forecast the long solar minimum we are passing through). The evidence points to the natural variability factors as being the effects of the rotation or the galaxy and the swirl imparted to the local area of the spiral arm we seem to reside in (Milankavich), and by the inertial dampening of the planets effects on the barycenter of the solar system, moves the sun's center of mass around as it tries to stay magnetically and gravitationally centered in the swirling magnetic fields, plasma, and dust clouds, and other stars joining us in this dance to the celestial music as it were.

(Landscheidt) Found the driving forces of the Inertial dampening of the system and defined it to the point of predictability, it only seems that that the next steps would be to analyze the effects of the interactions of the Inner planets, which have a rhythmic pattern to their orbital relationships, and their relations to the weather patterns they share. Most good discoveries come from the individuals who seek the truth with out consideration for the limited vision of the thundering herd mentality.

With climategate we have seen the latest stampede, of hurried angst ridden, fear mongering, driving of the ignorant sheep of the world away from the truth and into the pens. By the politically minded "think they know what the rest of us need crowd," that are controlling the funds, research orientation, and imposing their goals upon the process, to achieve profits as they see fit, to stay in power.

I have quietly undertaken the study of the relationships between the interactions of the Sun's magnetic fields borne on the solar wind, and it's interactions with the Earth's weather patterns to the point I have found the cyclic patterns of the shorter decadeal durations, that show up as the natural background variances in the climate RAW data sets. Starting with the history of research into planetary motions and the Lunar declination,(the Earth / Moon system's response to the rotation of the magnetic poles of the sun. In order to find a natural analog to the patterns in the weather there were several things I had to consider.

The results of the analog cyclic pattern I discovered repeat with in a complex pattern of Inner planet harmonics, and outer planet longer term interferences that come round to the 172 year pattern Landscheidt discovered, so this is just the shorter period set of variables, that further define the limits, of the natural variables needed to be considered, along side the CO2 hypothesis, as the longer term/period parents (Milankivich and Landscheidt cycles) of these driving forces are valid. It would be in error if they were not considered and calculated into the filtering of the swings in the climate data, for forecasting longer terms into the future.

A sample of the cyclic pattern found in the meteorological database is presented as a composite of the past three cycles composited together and plotted onto maps for a 5 year period starting in 2008, and running to January of 2014, on a rough draft website I use to further define the shifts in the pattern from the past three to the current cycle, to continue learning about the details of the interactions.

http://www.aerology.com

The building of Stonehenge at the end of the last ice age, was done as the weather in the area was changing from tundra, to grasses and shrubs, in waves from the El nino effects at the time.

They began a study of the relationship between the Solar and Lunar declinational movement timing, found the lunar 18.6 year Mn minimum/maximum declinational cycle, the 19 year Metonic cycle where the moon is at the same phase and maximum declination on the same date every 19 years, and the 6585 day Saris cycle of eclipses.

From combining the annual seasonal effects of apparent solar declination, and the short term effects of the Lunar declinational movement. The Incas and Mayans understood repeating weather patterns well enough to build a thriving culture, that supported a much larger population, than the area currently barely supports in poverty.

Then along came the Conquistadors, that were assumed to be the gods foretold in prophecy, who took over and killed off the high priests and the learned class (because the Catholic priests with them were convinced, they were idolaters and heretics.) so all were lost that understood how the “Pagan religion†was able to grow that much food with little problems, by the timing of celebrations and festivals that the people partook of, in a joyous and productive mood.

The Mayan stone masons who were busy carving out the next stone block to carve another 300 years of calendar upon, were put to work mining gold to export back to Spain. So with the next stone block unfinished, and in the rough, still in the quarry the Mayan calendar comes to an end in 2012.

Most of the population of the area was either killed in battles, or worked to death, while on cocaine to minimize food consumption, and mined gold for export by the false gods.

At home in Europe the Spanish inquisition sought to wipe out the fund of knowledge, (that went underground) about the interactions of the Solar and Lunar declinational movements and other sidereal stellar influences on people, and things in the natural world. As the result of mass killings, and book burnings much knowledge, and data history was lost.

Nicolas Copernicus, (19, February 1473 - 24 May 1543) and Nostradamus, (21 December, 1503 - 2 July 1566) Were around at about the same time and may have collaborated in person, or through a net work of underground friends. To give Nostradamus the idea to convert the data sets of past history sorted by geocentric astrology locations and positions, to a Heliocentric data base from which he drew his famous quatrains. There are many references to late night calculations, aside observations that may have given him his accuracy. Then along came Galileo Galilie , (15, February, 1564 - 8 January, 1642) with proof, that round moons circled round planets.

With the advent of good fast cheap computers, I was able to look at data sets ( although with considerably less coverage due to centuries of suppression,) and sort for Planetary and Lunar influences, and found that the Lunar declinational component, of the orbital movements, of the Moon, was responsible for the driving, of the Rossby Wave patterns, in sync with the lunar declinational tidal forces at work in the atmosphere.

How does this all work you ask? Well there is a magnetic field that surrounds the sun, and magnetic fields, that are invested in the body of the Galaxy. These large scale standing fields, interact to produce fluctuations in the strength of the fields felt upon the Earth as it moves in it's orbit.

The poles of the Earth are tilted to the axis of the solar system ~23 ½ degrees, giving us the changing seasons. The sun on the other hand is different it's axis of rotation is vertical, but the magnet poles are tilted ~12 degrees, so as it rotates on an average of 27.325 day period, the polarity of the magnetic fields felt via the solar wind, shifts from the result of the orientation determined by the position of the rotating magnetic poles of the sun.

The inner core of the moon has frozen, the outer core of the Earth is still molten, and a concentration of the magnetically permeable materials that make up the earth. These pulses of alternating North then South magnetic field shifts has been going on since before the Earth condensed into a planet and then was later struck by a Mars sized object (so the current theory goes), that splashed off most of the crust.

Most returned to the Earth, some was lost into interplanetary space, and some condensed into the moon. Somewhere in the process the center of mass of the moon gravitated toward the surface that faces the Earth, before it froze, causing that denser side to always face the Earth.

It is not the center of mass of the Earth that scribes the orbital path of the Earth about the sun but the center of mass of the composite Earth / moon barycenter that lies about 1,200 kilometers off of the center of mass of the Earth, always positioned between the center of the earth and the center of the Moon. So as the Moon rotates around the earth to create the lunar light phases, the center of mass of the earth goes from inside to out side, around the common barycenter. As the Moon moves North / South in it's declination, the center of mass of the earth goes the opposite direction to counter balance, around their common barycenter that scribes the smooth ellipse of the orbit around the sun. So really the Earth makes 13 loops like a strung out spring every year.

The magnetic impulses in the solar wind has driven the Moon / Earth into the declinational dance that creates the tides in phase in the atmosphere, because of the pendulum type movement the Moon hangs at the extremes of declination almost three days with in a couple of degrees then makes a fast sweep across the equator at up to 7 to 9 degrees per day. At these culminations of declination movement the polarity of the solar wind peaks and reverses, causing a surge in the reversal of the ion flux generated as a result. Because of the combination of both peak of Meridian flow surge in the atmosphere, and reversal of ion charge gradient globally occurs at the same time like clock work most severe weather occurs at these times.

Because of the semi boundary conditions caused by mountain ranges, the Rockies, Andes, Urals, Alps, Himalayas, that resulted in topographical forcing into a four fold pattern of types of Jet stream patterns, I had to use not a 27.325 day period but a 109.3 day period to synchronize the lunar declinational patterns into the data to get clearer repeatability than the same data set filtered by Lunar phase alone.

There is a pattern of 6554 days where in the inner planets, Mars, Earth, Venus, and Mercury, make an even number of orbital revolutions, and return to almost the same relative position to the star field.

By adding 4 days to this period I get 6558 days the time it takes the Moon to have 240 declinational cycles of 27.325 days, so that by using 6558 days as a synchronization period I get the lunar Declination angle, lunar phase, perigee / apogee cycle, and the relative positions of the inner planets to align from the past three (6558 day) cycles well enough that the average of the temperatures, and the totals of the precipitations give a picture of the repeating pattern, from the last three to forecast the next almost 18 year long string of weather related events, with a better accuracy than the forecast available for three to five days from NOW from conventional NWS / NOAA sources.

So by looking at the periods of declinational movement and the four fold pattern of Rossby wave propagation, while maintaining the inner planet synchronization. I get all of these influences in sync to look almost the same, as the current conditions, even to periods of hail, and tornado production.

When the outer planets are added into the mix, they are out of phase in regard to the inner planet / Lunar patterns, and their influences are not in Sync with these background patterns. There are lines of magnetic force that connect each planet to the sun, and these revolve around with the planets naturally.

As the Earth's orbit takes it between these outer planets and the sun (at Synodic conjunctions), the increase in magnetic fields carried via the solar wind, (to effect this outer planet coupling) is felt upon the Earth's magnetosphere, and results in a temporary increase in the pole to equator charge gradient then a discharge back to ambient levels (about a two week long up then down cycle time), how this interferes or combines with the "usual lunar / inner planet patterns" is determined by whether it is in, or out of phase with the background patterns.

During normal charge cycles more moisture is driven into the atmosphere carrying positive Ions, along the ITCZ, and in discharge cycle phases waves of free electrons, and negative ions are sent down from the poles into the mid-latitudes. Charge cycles inhibit precipitation amounts and discharge cycles produce increased precipitation amounts along existing frontal boundaries, due to changes in residual ion charge differences between the air masses.

There is a seasonal increase in magnetic fields coupled from the center of out galaxy to the sun that peaks in mid June (summer solstice), and then decreases till winter solstice. As the magnetic charging cycle associated with this build up in Northern hemisphere Spring, it brings on a bias for surges of positive ionized air masses, that produces surges of tornadoes in phase with the lunar declinational culminations, and other severe weather, will also be enhanced by Synod conjunctions with outer planets, by the same increases of positively charged ions. The closer the timing of the conjunction to a peak lunar culmination the sharper the spike of production, like cracking a whip.

During discharge phases from summer solstice through fall in general, tropical storms manifest as large scale discharge patterns to ring the moisture, heat, and excess ions out of the tropical air masses. Outer planets conjunctions at these times help to build moisture reserves in the atmosphere, during their ion charge contribution, and enhance storms to category 4 and 5 levels when in phase with their discharge phase influences. So to say that the planets have no real influence on the world in general, is the same as to totally disregard how much the weather, effects how people live and survive.

I think that the influences felt at the surface, are just changes in the back ground stimuli, and not strongly controlling enough to lose free will, when we chose to interact with the total spectrum of stimuli that surrounds us at any particular moment. The 18+ year long repeating pattern is long enough that the other conditions surrounding a person have changed, via plant growth, soil changes, age, or location on the surface of the earth, since the last cycle.

On the ground, all plants that have roots in the soil share soil ions and nutrients, via microbial sharing, fungal predation, and companion plants that support each other. The organic matter from past growth that gives up valuable nutrients as it decays, and adds texture to the soil for better aeration and moisture penetration, form a mat of interacting processes, that breath life into the environment.
Posted by: Severely Tall

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 04/12/2009 16:52

Quote:
Anemoi, Here's evidence from a renowned scientist with evidence that CO2 doesn't cause warming. And the human records are nothing to rely on re history, 150 years is a 1/2 blink of an eye in even human history. What excuse will you use when the real cooling set's in (heaven forbid), but maybe, just maybe, you could be swayed to be more flexible in your approach??


Climate change 'sceptic' Ian Plimer argues CO2 is not causing global warming

Professor Ian Plimer, a geologist from Adelaide University, argues that a recent rise in temperature around the world is caused by solar cycles and other "extra terrestrial" forces.

He said carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, widely blamed for global warming, is a natural phenomenon caused by volcanoes erupting.
"We cannot stop carbon emissions because most of them come from volcanoes," he said. "It is a normal element cycled around in the earth and my science, which is looking back in time, is saying we have had a planet that has been a green, warm wet planet 80 per cent of the time. We have had huge climate change in the past and to think the very slight variations we measure today are the result of our life - we really have to put ice blocks in our drinks."


Thats right...Aliens cause global warming...now I remember where Plimer is coming from.
The problem with this argument as outlined numerous times is that it cannot be volcanic CO2 as the isotopic signature is wrong....Plimer was actually foolish enough to try and dig his way out of that hole by inventing new carbon converting criteria...and now has changed his tack to describe cosmic forces....Aliens will be next. And amusingly nothing said there in that snippet suggests anything different from what has been comprehensively debunked.

Get a new scientist who actually has some scientific credibility in this area left rather than a money grubbing individual like Plimer.
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 04/12/2009 20:05

What ST, one that works for the IPCC?? Yeh right
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 04/12/2009 20:28

"Talk about your global warming . . . When an estimated 16,500 delegates, activists and reporters descend upon Copenhagen Monday for the United Nations Climate Change Conference, a lot of hot air will follow.

The U.N. estimates the 12-day conference will create 40,584 tons of carbon dioxide equivalents, roughly the same amount as the carbon emissions of Morocco in 2006.

Those greenhouse gas emissions are comprised of two parts: international travel and local emissions from hotels and transportation venues. Organizers will also reportedly lay 900 kilometers of computer cable and 50,000 square miles of carpet, along with more than 200,000 meals to be served and 200,000 cups of coffee.

The conference will leave an enormous carbon footprint, says Patrick Michaels, senior fellow for environmental studies at the Cato Institute, a libertarian think tank in Washington.

“It will be huge,” Michaels said of the environmental toll. “Where is video conferencing when we need it? An equally important question is what will be accomplished here?”

Approximately 140 aircraft carrying world leaders, heads of state and VIPs will land in Copenhagen, the U.N. estimates — although 95 percent of departures from Copenhagen Airport will be “green departures,” which allow airplanes to climb continuously to their optimal operating level, enabling them to reach planned routes sooner than usual. The result, according to the U.N., is saved time, fuel and carbon emissions.

But Michaels wonders why attendees, particularly those in Europe, can't ride the rails into Copenhagen.

“That’s the way I get to New York,” Michaels said. “There’s nothing new here. There’s always been a lot of hypocrisy amongst the climate change political community.

"Prince Charles goes around the world in a private jet, telling everyone else they need to ration their carbon dioxide. Please.”

Herb London, president of the Hudson Institute, a Washington-based think tank, acknowledged the “level of hypocrisy” regarding the conference and its emissions, but he said living in modernity mandates some sort of measurable carbon footprint. The question, he said, is if the carbon footprint left behind is desirable and efficient.

“It is ironic that you’ll have all these pronouncements made and very little action,” London told FoxNews.com. “What are [China and India] going to do? So what are we talking about here?”

To minimize the conference’s carbon footprint, the U.N. says the main venue, The Bella Center, aims to reach a 20 percent reduction in carbon dioxide emissions. To reach that goal, delegates have been urged to use public transportation to the site, to drink water from the tap instead of plastic bottles, and to minimize paper waste. Hotel owners have been asked to offer rooms that have been certified as environment-friendly.

Despite those efforts, Michaels said he expects little if any firm proposals to come out of the conference, which aims to produce a new treaty to replace the Kyoto Protocol, which expires in 2012.

“It will not produce a concrete agreement on climate change, meaning a universally-accepted international agreement with targets and timetables,” Michaels said. “It will, however, produce a statement that there’s been a breakthrough even though there will not have been.”"

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,579071,00.html
Posted by: mobihci

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 04/12/2009 20:48

Originally Posted By: Anemoi
Hundreds of heat records are not broken everyday, or every year.
Again more apparently completely unsubstantiated excuses and speculation instead any real knowledge...
It's the cycles, man, whatever they are, we can't explain, but it'll do for an excuse?

It is completley false and deceitful to suggest that, given that 8 out of 10 of the hottest years ever recorded by humans have been in this currently short century, things are just the same as ever.

This is not about data or models, or opinionated armchair experts versus people who actually do real scientific research.
This about real people, places, dying rivers and land.

Something else to chew on, this time for Qlders
How would you feel about 8hrs backup water supply for your town/community.
Tomorrow morning, it could all be gone.

Still funny?

............................

Warning hits home in town bearing brunt of big dry
COSIMA MARRINER
December 3, 2009
warning-hits-home-in-town-bearing-brunt-of-big-dry

JENNIFER Tunley got a shock when news broke that her town of Dalby, in Queensland's Darling Downs, had just eight hours' supply of water left this week.

''We hadn't heard how drastic our water situation was until now,'' Mrs Tunley said. ''There was a bit of panic.''

Dalby council's warning that the rich agricultural area was in danger of running dry was a stark reminder that much of Australia remains in the grip of severe drought. Western townships have yet to receive the drought-breaking rains that have fallen along the eastern seaboard.

''A lot of people in the big cities don't think about what's happening out in the back paddock,'' Dalby Mayor Ray Brown said. ''As soon as you hit that big hill on the other side of the Great Dividing Range, it's dry. We're the head waters of the Murray-Darling system, and there's no water in the Murray-Darling.''

With the Condamine River nearly dry and rainfall half the annual average, Dalby is relying on treated water from underground bores. But the town's desalination plant can only supply 4.5 million litres a day, compared with the 6 million litres used in a recent heatwave.

Ten consecutive days of temperatures above 35 degrees nearly left the town's reservoir dry this week. As supply rapidly dwindled, the council was monitoring the situation hourly, and preparing to ban all water use outside the home.

''If people continue to use that [amount of water], we could get to the stage where there won't be any water left,'' Mr Brown said. He said it was impossible to bring in enough water to satisfy the demands of a population of 12,000.
...



well lets have a look at dalby-

temp-



rain-



of course that station is now closed and one 2k away now takes record, rainfall figures are still running fairly average.



the point is that it is the council/governments fault that the town is not ready for what it HAS experienced in the past, and the easy cop out for politicians and the like is to wheel out the global warming cannon. exactly the same thing happened with this water recycling pipeline, they left the construction of a new dam so long in SE QLD that the population which has doubled since the last major dam was built was running out of drinking water. so what do the state government do? wheel out the this is the worst drought rubbish and con the public into spending over a BILLION dollars to put in a pipeline that is barely used today. now we lose our new dam and have to rely on a water supply that has catchments that in no way can EVER fill the dam without huge flooding events, or of course spend billions on desal plants that chew power like its going out of style.

pathetic, everything is going backwards!

dalby is a fine example, the ethanol plant using 1 million litres a day.. http://www.dbrl.com.au/

green power at work!

as for records, well with so many stations and such a short period of time recorded, in many cases it is less than 50 years so what is a 50 year record (cold or hot) meant to mean to anybody? unless of course you believe that somehow every possible state of climate can be achieved within a 50 year period of time, but history and longer term stations proves this isnt the case.
Posted by: Arnost

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 05/12/2009 00:22

Great post!

It is oh so unfortunate that the PO is closed. You don't get a sense of conitinuity...



I spliced the PO and the airport data together to see a fuller picture. Now whilst it appears that there is a decrease in rainfall and an increase in temps, there is ample precedent for it not be out of the ordinary.

Bottom line is that (as almost everywhere) the powers that be have not invested in infrastructure to cope with increasing populations and hence there is too much pressure on environmental flows (esp as you say where there is another / new drain on it...)

cheers
Posted by: marakai

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 05/12/2009 01:35

Some interesting statistics on the MSM coverage of climate Gate, Ya just gotta wonder why .


SNIP
This provides a measure in respect of one subject, but allows no comparison with other issues. Thus, as an experiment, I started trawling around, taking the stats on other issues in the news. To make the figures comparable, I then worked out the ratios of web pages to news pages reported.

On that basis, Tiger Woods delivered 22,500,000 web and 46,025 news pages, giving ratio of 489. That is the "Tiger Woods Index" (TWI) against which I chose to measure a raft of other issues.

"Climategate" was the next obvious choice and that produced 28,400,000 on the web page search, compared with 2,930 news items, delivering a ratio of 9,693. Using the TWI as a comparator, the public in general are more interested in "Climategate" than Tiger Woods, by a factor of nearly 20 times.

Applying the "ratio analysis" (doesn't that sound grand!) to ten current issues, including the two already mentioned, an arbitrary list emerged, ranked by importance to the general public, against media interest. This is as follows:

1. Climategate: 28,400,000 - 2,930 = 9693
2. Afghanistan: 143,000,000 - 154,145 = 928
3. Obama: 202,000,000 - 252,583 = 800
4. Tiger Woods: 22,500,000 - 46,025 = 489
5. Gordon Brown: 12,300,000 - 37,021 = 332
6. Climate change: 22,200,000 - 68,419 = 324
7. Sally Bercow: 25,000 – 86 = 290
8. David Cameron: 545,000 – 4837 = 113
9. Meredith Kercher: 261,000 - 3,471 = 75
10. Chilcot Inquiry: 125,000 - 4,350 = 29

SNIP


http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2009/12/tiger-woods-index.html
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 05/12/2009 07:22

Global Warming Skeptics Target NASA

Global Warming

An American researcher is threatening to sue NASA over its alleged distortion of climate change data. This follows revelations that scientists at a British university have changed or destroyed similar information.

Christopher Horner, a senior fellow at the Competitive Enterprise Institute, believes NASA manipulated temperature information to support its claim that the present decade is the warmest on record: "They don't want to admit the trend. It's cooling and they're trying not to say that.... When you talk about temperatures this decade and compare them to 1885, where were we measuring the temperature in 1885?"

Despite the escalating controversy over climate change data since the British e-mail story broke 13 days ago, the major broadcast networks have not covered it on their morning or evening news shows according to Media Research Center, even with President Obama heading to a climate change summit in Copenhagen next week.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,579269,00.html
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 05/12/2009 09:49

The Saturday Australian this morning has quite a few articles on AGW , the scam and the opinions of a number of commentators.
One of those short articles shows just how little mention, particularly when compared to the USA and other countries, the CRU debacle has had in the Australian media with a particular swipe at the ABC for openly stating that they will refuse to even mention the CRU debacle.

The whole media reeks of deliberate advocacy of a now unsustainable position on AGW.
Even more amazing is the almost total absence in the media of any analysis or explanation of Rudd's proposed ETS and the economic and social effects that such an ETS would have on Australia's entire economic, social and governmental structures.
The media's complete failure here is obvious by the overwhelming numbers who when polled admit that they do not have any idea on how the ETS would actually work or how it would directly and indirectly affect them and their lifestyles.
The media have been at best, full blown advocates and apologists for a massive unexplained and the unknown socially and economically disruptive change in our entire national system of taxing and government and bureaucratic interference in our private lives.

The message to the more inquiring of the public, don't ever trust the media again as we now know that the Australian media will not provide a fair and comprehensive coverage of any happening or event and will apparently deliberately distort or even avoid any mention of events that do not move in the direction that their advocacy and agenda has dictated.

It is only the constant pressure from the bloggers that have forced some of, not all of the media to start some limited coverage of the CRU climate scam and the potential fallout from that scam.

Here are some of the items from both the previous editions of The Australian and The Weekend Australian which at least, today has quite a number of articles on the ETS, CRU and carbon trading.

Editorial; Realistic, rational Copenhagen

Hacked climate emails 'ignored'

Saudis rain on summit's parade; The Saudi's like India have basically pulled the pin on any action on the so called mitigation of carbon.

Scientists jump on the carbon gravy train

WSJ; Big Costs Are Hurdle to Climate Pact

Change in climate as Rudd starts from scratch

India commits to carbon cuts

There are a number of other articles in The Weekend Australian with a climate theme. One of those which I can't find on The Australian's web site is by Nils Axel Morner, the retired world recognised sea level expert who again rubbishes the claims that rising sea levels will submerge the Maldive Islands.
Nils Axel Morner suggests that from his research the Maldives will see possibly a 20 cm rise in sea levels by 2100.

So much for all the hype and extremist alarmism, the "moral panic" as it has been called, the use of by which the warming alarmists and environmental groups continue to wield their power over our lives.
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 05/12/2009 10:48

And since I am on the theme of the media's reaction to Climate Gate, this Youtube video via WUWT is from the American CBC news network.
As has been pointed out now in an increasing number of posts and as Rex Murphy in this above CBC editorial also points out, Phil Jones claims that the basic data on which the whole of CRU's claims of anthropogenic global warming / climate change are based, have been deleted and destroyed.
This therefore makes any claims that the climate is warming from man made influences completely null and void as it is now impossible to even check the basic data to see if there has been faults, errors, manipulation and corruption and plain stuff ups in the data and in the calculations arising by using that basic data.
Posted by: Keith

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 05/12/2009 10:54

As if NASA would admit to anything when the President of the US, himself a supporter of the whole thing, is going to Copenhagen. NASA's heads of staff would probably lose their jobs.
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 05/12/2009 12:12

Is this is somehow related in the scam? The same thing happens in Wangaratta also...


Bureau investigates ‘incorrect’ rainfall
SHANNON CRANE
05 Dec, 2009 11:32 AM
THE Bureau of Meteorology is investigating claims of incorrect rainfall figures at its Albury airport weather station after reports of higher recordings across the city.

East Albury retiree Tony Opie alerted the bureau to the difference after recording an extra 80mm of rain at his home at the Murray Gardens Retirement Estate, less than 3km from the airport.

Mr Opie measured 530mm between January and the end of November, while the bureau collected just 450mm during the same period.

“I’ve got two or three other friends who keep them (rainfall figures) and they’re all about 530mm as well,” he said.

“And I spoke to the bureau people in Wagga and compared each month’s reading and, generally, every month my readings were higher than theirs.

“If there was one big difference just for one month then yes, OK, but every month it’s about 10 per cent out.

http://www.bordermail.com.au/news/local/...ll/1696621.aspx
Posted by: mobihci

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 05/12/2009 12:46

probably something covering the area or something like that, but bom data does seem fairly robust to me. i believe the data itself is not the problem here, it is the cherry picking by the analysts that enter politics into the data.

eg here- http://www.warwickhughes.com/blog/?p=317

"Jones et al 1986 looked at 86 Australian stations and rejected 46 (25 Short term – 21 long term). Of the 40 they used 27 were short term and 13 long term. Of the long term there were 5 large cities.
The 27 short term stations were mostly only quoted from 1951 onward – regardless of what data was available. It just so happens that the years just post WWII were not prominently warm in Australia so an “automatic” warming trend was reinforced into the CRU Australian component.
Here are 11 examples where Jones et al systematically truncated pre-1951 data or ignored more rural data around many small town Australian stations."
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 05/12/2009 22:34

David Jones = big time AGW believer and I have tangled with him both on a personal basis and on this forum in the past.
He gets a [ dis-] honorable mention in the CRU e-mails when he agrees in an e-mail to Phil Jones of CRU to withhold data from Steve McIntyre of Climate Audit.

David Jones to CRU Jones e-mails have not yet been released but may just be one of some thousands more e-mails and the critical heavily corrupted code which proves everything and which the releaser of the mails implied may yet be released.
He / she / they might just be biding their time to see how the first release pans out or that next file might just be a very handy bargaining chip if they ever catch up with the releaser of the mails.

http://www.eastangliaemails.com/search.php

Quote:
Tuesday, 19 June 2007 07:21:57 : Filename: 1182255717.txt

1. Think I've managed to persuade UEA to ignore all further FOIA
requests if the people have anything to do with Climate Audit.
2. Had an email from David Jones of BMRC, Melbourne. He said
they are ignoring anybody who has dealings with CA, as there are
threads on it about Australian sites.
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 05/12/2009 22:53

From right in the heart of the Copenhagen conference! The timing is superb! From Denmark;
Parliamentary Speaker: Climate debate derailed?
Posted by: ColdFront

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 05/12/2009 23:22

I wonder what lengths "denialists" would go to to cover up GW? Afterall ,some of the biggest industries are oil and coal. We are talking trillions of dollars.

As I have already said, I don't have an opinion either way on global warming (recorded history isn't long enough) , however the icpp email scandal is marvellously timed to disrupt the Copenhagen meet. Coincidence? Are the emails being manipulated or deliberately misused and out of context?

Just how far would big business go to do exactly what it claims the GW lobbyists have done? I suspect a long ,long ,long, long way.

Food for thought.
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 05/12/2009 23:59

Umm! CRU were getting a lot of money from those nasty big oil companies and were aiming to get even more and that was way back in 2000 let alone what they have got from those same nasty big oil companies since.

Wednesday, 5 July 2000 12:31:00 : Filename: 962818260.txt

Quote:
From: "Mick Kelly"
To: m.hulme@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
Subject: Shell
Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 13:31:00 +0100
Reply-to: m.kelly@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
Cc: t.oriordan@xxxxxxxxx.xxx, t.o'riordan@xxxxxxxxx.xxx

Mike
Had a very good meeting with Shell yesterday. Only a minor part of the
agenda, but I expect they will accept an invitation to act as a strategic
partner and will contribute to a studentship fund though under certain
conditions. I now have to wait for the top-level soundings at their end
after the meeting to result in a response. We, however, have to discuss
asap what a strategic partnership means, what a studentship fund is, etc,
etc. By email? In person?
I hear that Shell's name came up at the TC meeting. I'm ccing this to Tim
who I think was involved in that discussion so all concerned know not to
make an independent approach at this stage without consulting me!
I'm talking to Shell International's climate change team but this approach
will do equally for the new foundation as it's only one step or so off
Shell's equivalent of a board level.
I do know a little about the Fdn and
what kind of projects they are looking for. It could be relevant for the
new building, incidentally,
though opinions are mixed as to whether it's
within the remit.
Regards
Mick
______________________________________________


And; Thursday, 24 February 2000 16:37:30 : Filename: 951431850.txt


Quote:
From: John Shepherd
To: Mike Hulme
Subject: Re: BGS, Esso,[ Exxon] & CV for Tyndall bid
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 17:37:30 +0000

Mike

BGS are now on board, so please leave them in the text : I have drafted a
letter for David Falvey to sign and sent it. I hope we shall get it back in
time...

The Esso (Exxon-Mobil) situation is still promising, but they're having to
get clearance from HQ in the USA (my best contact retired (with cancer)
just a few weeks ago, so we've had to work around the new CE, to whom all
this is news...). They know the deadline and will do their best for us.

Finally, my short informal CV is attached, as requested.

Hope the drafting is coming together well.

John
Attachment Converted: "c:eudoraattachJGS_CV_informal.doc


And etc ; Exxon[ ESSO], Shell and etc!
Posted by: mobihci

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 06/12/2009 01:56

Originally Posted By: ColdFront
I wonder what lengths "denialists" would go to to cover up GW? Afterall ,some of the biggest industries are oil and coal. We are talking trillions of dollars.

As I have already said, I don't have an opinion either way on global warming (recorded history isn't long enough) , however the icpp email scandal is marvellously timed to disrupt the Copenhagen meet. Coincidence? Are the emails being manipulated or deliberately misused and out of context?

Just how far would big business go to do exactly what it claims the GW lobbyists have done? I suspect a long ,long ,long, long way.

Food for thought.


the timing was obvious, it doesnt need to be mentioned. we know they timed it for best effect and so they should. what is also obvious is that a lot of the emails dont need context to be understood and to try and spin them away is exactly what they were exposing about the culture. ie protecting such rubbish shows clearly how deep the corruption really is within the field.

for someone outside the field to protect/answer for these emails shows how well they built the church and trained their preachers. that sort of faith or fundamental thinking will ever be garnered by 'big business'. it will just never happen. people dont trust banks,oil companies etc etc, yet they trust government funded research with a level of faith not seen outside of religion. breaking that trust is something not understood in the science era, big business has taken over the research and that big business is government. we should treat government funded research as we treat oil funded research, both have vested interest in their own research.
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 06/12/2009 07:20

U.N. Panel to Probe Claims on Manipulating Climate Data

The head of a United Nations panel said it will investigate claims that scientists manipulated data about global warming, days before climate-change talks in Copenhagen.

Rajendra Pachauri, head of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, told the BBC the allegations were serious. "We certainly don't want to brush anything under the carpet," he said.

The controversy arose from the release of thousands of emails, between scientists at the University of East Anglia's Climatic Research Unit and their peers around the world, which suggested attempts to suppress or manipulate data.

Climate-change skeptics have seized on the correspondence, saying they showed researchers exaggerated the case for man-made global warming.

In the U.S., congressional Republicans, who had called for investigations in the wake of the email controversy, pounced on the U.N. announcement Friday.

House and Senate Republicans argued that the Obama administration's climate-change efforts should now be reconsidered because the Environmental Protection Agency uses reports from the U.N. climate-change panel to support the regulation of greenhouse-gas emissions. The IPCC's reports often extensively cite data provided by the University of East Anglia's climate unit.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125997765265677671.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 06/12/2009 10:45

From the weather is not climate department.

I now think the enviro and warmista alarmists with their running dogs in the financial industry to use the old communist term, can just about kiss their hopes of getting American's on board the carbon trading scam at Copenhagen permanently goodbye.

A huge snow storm has just swept across central USA and according to the weather forecasters another major snow storm with severe freezing conditions is due to sweep across most of the USA early this coming week and still another storm may be sweeping down from the north later in the week as well.

The alarmists have played to the hilt every hot or dry or "unusual" or severe short term weather system as being direct evidence of disastrous global warming in the offing.
Now with Climate Gate, the rapidly expanding perceptions of the public are that they have been thoroughly conned by the alarmists and their constant habit of playing every more extreme weather phenomenon as a sign of future oncoming climate disasters.

The onset of unexpected extreme low temperatures and severe freezing conditions across so much of the USA, the one nation that is capable of completely changing the whole climate debate, will be seen by a vast number of Americans as the death knell of the climate warming alarmist movement.
The alarmist's methods may well be on the way back to haunting them as a lot of the public will just as likely see the onset of severe winter weather conditions that have not been matched for many years past as just as indicative of global cooling as any short term severe storm weather conditions were touted as evidence of global warming.
At the very least the American public are likely to see these severe cold outbreaks as evidence of the the complete collapse of a fraud that has led to the global warming claims.

It is weather not climate that is occurring across the USA but the perceptions of people are very closely linked to what they are personally experiencing and they are currently very bloody cold!
And over the next week or so that will be the message from the American people to their senators and congressmen, taking us down the path of signing away our sovereignty over the claims of global warming at Copenhagen will be at your severe peril!
Posted by: Keith

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 06/12/2009 12:19

To me this summit is the equivalent of the Treaty of Versailles (1918) except that this time they think they can carve up the world's (read the so-called 'rich nations') money. I think that's what the main intention is of the conference, using GW as a 'lever'. It's the same logic as saying 'Apes have hairy chests, Aristotle had a hairy chest, therefore Aristotle was an ape'. That is, 'the first world countries are richer than the rest, they cause global warming through their pollution etc etc therefore let's take their money so they can't do such abominable things to the planet' (read God). In fact Versailles had the same purpose: shut Germany's war-making capacity down. It didn't work. The reality is that nothing is going to stop the rich being greedy, because the problem resides within them; greedy, polluting etc practices are only the outward evidence. I think it used to be called 'human nature'. Nowadays that's politically incorrect, and that helps us to turn a blind eye to the mess. I don't dispute the responsibility of helping poorer nations, but this isn't the way. Why do we still have poverty after thousands of years of human existence? No wonder we never get anywhere.

Let's not forget too, that a lot of people in the so-called rich countries are themselves honest, decent people who help the poor when they can, and that taxing them will make that harder to do. That means the poor are poorer and all it does is make things worse.

Do these people who support Copenhagen ever stop and think what their idealism is really doing? I don't think they do.
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 07/12/2009 21:22

You really do have to wonder at the absolute bloody minded hypocrisy of all those who are "attending" the Copenhagen Climate conference.
This is the arrogant, elitist rabble and I am being very, very polite, who are going to SAVE the world from all of us sinful citizens who will have to be forced to give up our small comforts for a life of austerity so that this arrogant elitist rabble can claim they have "saved" the world.
While SAVING the world, they are going to make sure they enjoy the fruits of that world to the absolute maximum and from reports so far, apparently intend to do so in scenes of disgraceful and dissolute dissipation.

And saving the world from what! Well nobody seems to know anymore!

From the Telegraph; Copenhagen climate summit: 1,200 limos, 140 private planes and caviar wedges
Posted by: marakai

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 07/12/2009 21:55

What I cant believe is the absolute deafening silence on this subject in the MSM, and the fact that if you do hear anything it is a whitewash.
Scandal what scandal? just a few e-mails. Skeptics are using this to try and derail Copenhagen.

No analysis, no unbiased reporting, no facts, no nothing. It's almost like it isnt even there.

Tiger Woods and Cannibalistic polar bears (due to climate change, no more AGW anymore) are the diet the population is being fed.

I just cant believe it.
Posted by: marakai

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 08/12/2009 01:26

The largest ever UN climate summit opened in Copenhagen on Monday with the head of the UN's Nobel winning panel of environmental scientists accusing vested quarters of not being ready to face the reality of threats of wide-ranging nature of changes in climate.

Attacking the so-called 'climategate' affair as a bid to undermine the capability of his organisation, Rajendra Pachauri said at the opening ceremony that those who had hacked into the e-mails of top climate scientists were out to discredit the scientific assessment made of threats to the climate.

But the climategate affair rocked the conference with some countries calling for an international probe into the affair, especially accusations that scientists had distorted data to dramatise the threat of global warming.

The Saudi Arabian negotiator Mohammed al-Sabban said that climate science had been "shaken" by the leaked emails.

"The level of trust is definitely shaken, now that we are about to conclude an agreement that...is going to mean sacrifices for our economies."

However, Pachauri stoutly defended his organisation, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, saying, "Giving the wide-ranging nature of change of that is likely to be taken in hand, some naturally find it inconvenient to accept its inevitability."

http://business.rediff.com/report/2009/dec/07/pachauri-attacks-the-climategate-affair.htm
Posted by: jdh

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 08/12/2009 05:07

I love this thread, its way cheaper than the comedy channel!!
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 08/12/2009 09:02

Hows that big snow storm and blizzard going in your patch, jdh?.
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 08/12/2009 12:51

"This is bad news for the Cameron team: the PoliticsHome website has just released an opinion poll showing that nearly three quarters of Conservative voters believe that the issue of climate change is exaggerated by the media. And so do a majority (51 per cent) of all voters. What is more, fully 46 per cent of all voters feel that it is given too high a priority by government. (The figure for Conservative voters on that question is no less than 56 per cent.)

So perhaps making global warming the iconic symbol of Tory modernisation was not such a great idea? This may be very damaging indeed: it could be one of the factors that is convincing many Tory and potentially-Tory voters that the party is more concerned with being fashionable (in Leftwing terms) than it is with addressing their real concerns."
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/janetd...ge-exaggerated/
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 08/12/2009 19:06

An interesting and very relevant take on the Climate Gate e-mails from Dr Roy Spencer, head of UAH's AMSR satellite data organisation, one of the two satellite global temperature data centres.

Quote:
What If Climategate was Cancergate?
December 6th, 2009
Senator Barbara Boxer has said that the e-mails supposedly stolen from a computer at the Climatic Research Unit in the UK should lead to prosecution of the hacker who did it. This rather obvious attempt to divert attention from the content of the emails, to the manner in which the e-mails were obtained, led my wife to make an interesting observation.

What if the intercepted emails uncovered medical researchers discussing the fudging and hiding of cancer research data, and trying to interfere with the peer review process to prevent other medical researchers from getting published? There would be outrage from all across the political spectrum. Scientists behaving badly while the health of people was at stake would not be defended by anyone.

So why should it be any different with Climategate? Unnecessary restrictions on (or price increases for) energy use could needlessly kill millions of people who are already poverty stricken. Cancer research affects many of us, but energy costs affect ALL of us.
Posted by: Mike Hauber

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 08/12/2009 19:35

And if some cancer researchers found some data showing that some out of many health studies had been fudged, and the tobaco cancer lobby industry jumped on this to try and imply that the science behind the link between tobaco and cancer was fake, would anyone expect the cancer deniers to be treated with anything other than the contempt they deserve?

Energy costs may affect all of us, but when you consider how many people know someone with cancer, cancer comes pretty close.

Energy costs are a minor inconvenience. Cancer kills. If climate change destroys our agricultural productivity then climate change will kill.

Holocust denial never killed anyone. How many will climate change denial kill?
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 08/12/2009 19:40

I think that anybody who doubts that the surface temperature data is being heavily manipulated, not just homogenised, by the GHCN,GISS and CRU should read the latest WUWT article by Willis Eschenbach on the way in which the historical Darwin,[ Northern Territory ] temperatures have been grossly changed from the original raw data.

The Smoking Gun At Darwin Zero
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 08/12/2009 20:30

That darwin data is a real eye-opener to the apparent extent of temperature alterations and adjustments that go one! It is so far from the original that I am quite flabbergasted! It is worse than we thought!
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 08/12/2009 20:33

The Totalities of Copenhagen

'I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." Is it not obvious that the vision of apocalypse as it was revealed to Saint John of Patmos was, in fact, global warming?

Here's a partial rundown of some of the ills seriously attributed to climate change: prostitution in the Philippines (along with greater rates of HIV infection); higher suicide rates in Italy; the 1993 "Black Hawk Down" battle in Somalia; an increase in strokes and heart disease in China; wars in the Middle East; a larger pool of potential recruits to terrorism; harm to indigenous peoples and "biocultural diversity."

All this, of course, on top of the Maldives sinking under the waves, millions of climate refugees, a half-dozen Katrina-type events every year and so on and on—a long parade of horrors animating the policy ambitions of the politicians, scientists, climate mandarins and entrepreneurs now gathered at a U.N. summit in Copenhagen. Never mind that none of these scenarios has any basis in some kind of observable reality (sea levels around the Maldives have been stable for decades), or that the chain of causation linking climate change to sundry disasters is usually of a meaningless six-degrees-of-separation variety.

Still, the really interesting question is less about the facts than it is about the psychology. Last week, I suggested that funding flows had much to do with climate alarmism. But deeper things are at work as well.

One of those things, I suspect, is what I would call the totalitarian impulse. This is not to say that global warming true believers are closet Stalinists. But their intellectual methods are instructively similar. Consider:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB20001424052748703558004574582541677434628.html
Posted by: mammatus mistress

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 08/12/2009 20:53

Directly quoting a right wing Murdoch blog without attribution is misleading.

As for the blog itself : this right wing fascination and delusion that attempts to stall global warming or move to greener sources of energy are somehow a totalitarian plot to reduce the world to a pre-industrial age are simply laughable.
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 08/12/2009 21:12

Posted by: Mike Hauber

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 08/12/2009 21:16

Originally Posted By: ROM
I think that anybody who doubts that the surface temperature data is being heavily manipulated, not just homogenised, by the GHCN,GISS and CRU should read the latest WUWT article by Willis Eschenbach on the way in which the historical Darwin,[ Northern Territory ] temperatures have been grossly changed from the original raw data.

The Smoking Gun At Darwin Zero


And GISS avoids this problem data by excluding it. GISS data and algorithms are open. When did the skeptics last have an actual criticism of GISS other than 'it makes lots of adjustments'. And no the Smith guy who does averages of raw data to calculate something totally different to what GISS calculates does not count.
Posted by: roves

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 08/12/2009 22:08

No comment Mike other then to type that interesting. Who ever cooked the data to look like that should be put in jail, that is just disgusting.
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 08/12/2009 22:56

Somehow Mike I would far more trust, based on a number of comments elsewhere, the highly regarded E.M. Smith's figures and conclusions and Willis Eschenbach's analysis and conclusions than just accepting your opinion which I gather is probably based on only a fraction of the analytical experience of Smith and Eschenbach and which is expressed on a somewhat low profile blog here in Australia.
[ Deleted; I may be in trouble again even though it was polite! ]
Besides, continuing to belittle well regarded people who are considerably more skilled than yourself in analytical procedures does you no real favours in the long run.

In any case all of this debate will make very little difference in the end for a number of reasons.
When all the BS from Copenhagen is over and done with and the situation has settled back to the usual agitated normality the world will just get on as per normal.
The polls both in the key USA and now in the UK are showing a steady and continuing swing towards increasing skepticsm of the claims of Anthropogenic Global Warming, ie; AGW as distinct from Global Warming; ie; GW.
Fewer and fewer of the population are accepting of the claims that global warming is caused by mankind with something like over 50% of the population now having serious doubts or just flatly disbelieving that mankind is the cause of global warming or climate change.
Increasing numbers of the public are increasingly believing that GW and climate change are just a natural occurring climate phenomena and are not caused by mankind.
This is what a number of the polls are showing.
Argue if you wish but that is the data.

Now toss in the severe cold winter snow and blizzard outbreaks across large parts of the USA with apparently more to come and a lot of perceptions are going to be changed even more about Global Warming and climate change.

Then there are the astonishing excesses of Copenhagen which will turn a lot of people, ie; fence sitters off global warming as well as they will see it as a mighty scam for a particular group of the elitists high livers.

Now to help the sense of just what a scam this whole global warming is turning out to be, the American EPA in a fit of mindless stupidity has declared the essential to life gas, CO2 a noxious gas to be heavily regulated.
When the American public are hit with increasing costs plus extraordinary intrusions into their personal and business lives, I suspect that all hell will break loose in the USA, particularly with the mid term congressional elections coming up in 2010.
Obama even with another two years of his presidency to go, could well be a one term president.

Furthermore, the EPA will be hit with a huge number of lawsuits forcing them to justify their actions and decisions in gazetting CO2 as a noxious gas and those law suits will force the EPA to provide the science that provides the basis and justification for their actions.
That of course forces GISS, the GHCN and CRU if it is till around to provide ALL of their data and algorithms to support the EPA's actions.
The lawyers will see to that!

Failure by the EPA to provide the full scientific basis to the satisfaction of the judges will nullify the whole EPA case against CO2 and that would and possibly will create an almighty back lash from every direction.
And the politicians of the EPA are not going to let GISS, the GHCN or CRU off the hook if they fall foul of the lawsuits but will either get the complete data and computations to back their actions or will blame the scientists of GISS and etc for their predicament if that data is not available, has been "deleted" or most probably fails totally in it's truthfulness and cannot be verified.

And of course in view of the EPA's declaration of CO2 as a noxious gas, the the skeptical American politicians will invariably hold a heavy hitting senatorial and congressional inquiry into all aspects of the EPA and the science on which the EPA's decision is based and that of course entails investigating the deepest entrails of GISS, GHCN and CRU with who knows what may be revealed.
Even more so if the EPA's actions as seems to be likely, lead to massive job losses in a lot of America's most basic industries which underpin their massive industrial capacity.
It is highly likely that as the job losses mount there will be a huge back lash against the EPA and the global warming alarmists and greens and enviromentals who have brought this EPA decision on.

And if the UK also now goes down the same path as the American's and the indications from the polls are that this is the case, then they also will and already are rejecting the alarmists and the AGW.
The poms are just getting sick of the whole AGW/ climate change propaganda barrage that is constantly being thrown at them.
They are sick of great swarms of extremely ugly wind turbines springing up everywhere across some of the most scenic parts of the UK, knowing that as taxpayers they are paying a fortune in subsidies to the wind turbine scammers.
They know that sometime in the very near future that there will be long periods of massive power cuts as the worn out and obsolete power stations have to be taken off line, due to the radical greens and enviros and the the craven english politicians failing to make provision for new power plants or obstructing at every turn the companies that were prepared to build those plants.
When the UK goes, then sooner or later Europe will eventually follow.

As the polls are indicating, somewhere, sometime the dam will break and the numbers will be such that no politician who wants to keep his or her seat will be able to or want to protect the scammers who led them, the politicians down the garden path with their manipulation and corruption of the climate data and the public's perceptions, all to ensure the continuation of their power and influence and using a false and manipulative ideology to do so.
Posted by: Arnost

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 08/12/2009 23:42

Mike:
Quote:
And GISS avoids this problem data by excluding it.


What makes you say they exclude Darwin Data?
Posted by: marakai

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 08/12/2009 23:54

From the post and link above

Quote:
but GISS use the GHCN raw data as the starting point for their analysis.


you do have to wonder.
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 09/12/2009 02:27

It is not the starting point we are worried about...It is the end point!
From the posts on the Darwin frightening case, at least many other stations are involved in these fictional adjustments also, if not the lot!
Posted by: marakai

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 09/12/2009 02:41

No BD only nine in total of the 200 plus, that is all that is included...

Go figure???
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 09/12/2009 07:15

I suppose this is we mere mortals fault also


Summer snow predicted for the Alps

It might officially be summer, but in Victoria, the weather is anything but predictable.

There has been good rainfall across the state today.

But it is expected to be followed by a cold snap later in the week which could bring snow to parts of north-east Victoria.

Forecaster Terry Ryan of the Weather Bureau says the colder weather will arrive on Thursday night, and it snow is expected down to 1500 metres in the Alps.

"Pretty cold air, down to zero or minus one in minimum temps up there," he said.

"Eventually getting up to six or seven degrees in the daytime on Friday."

He said the cold weather is unusual at this time of year, but it does happen ever so often in December.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/12/08/2765169.htm
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 09/12/2009 07:23

Copenhagen conference in 'disarray'

TALKS at the United Nations climate change conference in Copenhagen have broken down over leaked documents indicating that wealthier nations would be given more power in future climate change negotiations.

The documents seem to allow a handful of rich countries to have larger emissions and more control over future talks within a "circle of commitment" and have enraged delegates from developing countries.

The US, UK, and Denmark are among the countries included in the so-called "Danish text."

The document also sets unequal limits on per capita carbon emissions for developed and developing countries in 2050; meaning that people in rich countries would be permitted to emit nearly twice as much under the proposals.

http://www.news.com.au/world/copenhagen-conference-in-disarray/story-e6frfkyi-1225808437312
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 09/12/2009 08:36

From the Weather, not Climate department ??? via The Drudge report


Dangerous Blizzard Lashes Plains, Midwest

Fierce snowstorm gains strength after hitting West
USA severe weather Warnings

After this lot had hit you and somebody told you that global warming was a real danger to the planet, what would your reaction be?

To get an idea of the scale of this storm relative to Australia which is almost equal in area to continental USA, the area that is forecast to cop the snow and blizzards if placed on a map of Australia would roughly cover an area bounded by say Lake Eyre then NW to the rock at Uluru in the NT and then NE up to the SW corner of the Gulf of Carpentaria and across to Nomanton on the SE corner of the Gulf.
Plus some snow storms right up the Cape.
Then place the whole of NSW and southern Queensland under rain as well.
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 09/12/2009 08:59

Summer snow on the Australian and Tasmanian alps has been recorded since observations began. And yes, it is December in America and it is cold. As it should be.

More to the point, I was doing something unrelated for George and Paul on 2UE this morning and their preceding item was about NASA revising the data and declaring that 1998 was not the hottest year on record, and that of the top 10 warmest years on record in the US, 1934 was the warmest and that a further three out of the ten also occurred in the '30s.

I think media awareness of distorted data is growing apace. This is good. Whether media awareness of the actual science is keeping up is another matter. Those who have distorted or skewed the data to make a better case are in the same category as those who had 60 feet snow falls in the US in October, and a 30 feet thick cover of Arctic sea ice between Iceland and Greenland last spring, or had snow ploughs struggling to keep up in the US during the fall. (December maybe, October this year, definitely not.)

All of these fabrications and exaggerations deserve to be rubbished, irrespective of which side the argument was responsible for the fictions involved.
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 09/12/2009 09:03

And now it seems that the Alaskan temperatures have received a similar going over to the Darwin temperatures.
The analytically inclined guys are just starting to get their teeth into the GHCN and GISS temperature data and even scratching the surface is revealing some very large boils on the backside of global warming.
This is really starting to stink!

The Air Vent with a post by Dr Richard Keen, Uni of Colorado; Alaska Bodged Too
Posted by: Keith

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 09/12/2009 09:22

Ben, what the actual science is, has become submerged in the politics of the issue. The trouble is that even without the politics, it all comes back to this endless round of argument and counter-argument based on probability (that if we 'don't act' the planet will perish), whose real definition seems to depend on the world view of the person(s) making those arguments. So if one tries to strip out the politics it just comes charging right back in again. Science will always be science, but not in the GW debate. I think it was always politically motivated, and science has only been used as a tool in that process, not the other way around.

My own view is that the planet isn't going to perish, nor humanity with it. But it's impossible to get anywhere, especially (and very disappointingly) of late in these forums.
Posted by: mammatus mistress

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 09/12/2009 11:41

Originally Posted By: Simmosturf
...post removed as personal attack...

Commonly expressed ideas on this forum that AGW is some kind of totalitarian plot or linked to arcane academic fields like post-modernism are extreme and border on irresponsible.
They are hardly scientific.
Whatever happens in Copenhagen will happen under the sovereign interests and structures of member nations.
In Australia's case: a liberal democracy.
That will not change as a result of any talks in Copenhagen.
Now can we come back to the issues at hand.
http://www.smh.com.au/environment/climat...91208-khqv.html
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 09/12/2009 12:53

Keith,

We have that frustration in common, indeed with others on these pages.

The shrillness of the messages associated with the popular debate are more than annoying. My own view is that when the data if not the broader debate is restored there will remain identifiable and significant contributions to climate change from processes initiated by the excessive release of fossilised carbon. The debate may thus cool down even if the planet doesn't, and reason and innovation may overcome the impulse to socially engineer both the science and the solutions.

Then again, I may be dreaming.
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 09/12/2009 13:02

Analysts of all sorts are just starting to get into having a good look at the global temperature data and some very big issues on the significant [ and deliberate ?] manipulation of data are starting to appear.
With the revelations on the corrupted Darwin temperature data in the GHCN, Joanne Nova has had a look at a number of stations across the top end of Australia and into the north of WA.
She really reinforces the impression that the Darwin data has been severely manipulated to create supposed temperature trends that are well outside of any normal and accepted adjustments or homogenisation's and are into the realm of temperature trends that are pure fantasy.

Smoking Guns Across Australia: Where’s the warming? Looking at 16 other locations.
Posted by: Mike Hauber

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 09/12/2009 20:14

Interesting about the Darwin trend. Looking up raw BOM values shows a clear increasing trend for Darwin Airport since 1941 (link)

The other significant record for Darwin is the post office, which ends in 1940, and has a decreasing trend, mostly before 1910. (link)

The post office record ends significantly warmer than the airport record trend starts, which is evidence that the airport location is cooler than the previous post office record.

What is also interesting is the GHCN record for 'Darwin Airport'. This record has 5 stations. The first seems to correspond to the post office, however ends in 1985 and includes the step down in data after the change to the airport location (link)

The second station would seem to correspond to the airport station, and starts in 1940. However there is a significant step down around 1990 which is not in evidence for the BOM record which shows a continued rise through the 90s and 00s. (link)

The other three GHCN stations appear to be shortened versions of the airport record.

This is then interpreted by GISS as an overall decreasing trend since 1960 (GISS throws away the earlier data).

It appears that GHCN have included an error in their station data which inadvertantly attributes data from both airport and post office to one station, and has also spliced recent data from an unknown (to me) source into the airport record. This has contributed to difficulties for the algorithms that calculate the appropriate adjustments for this data, and has contributed to a false cooling trend in GISS.

So much for the smoking gun that proves that climate scientists are always adjusting the data for warming....
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 10/12/2009 07:03

I'm now waiting for this incredible and so far unexplained atmospheric effect to be associated with global warming or Copenhagen, and which I posted on my blog this morning. (Shameless plug, but enjoy the pictures if nothing else.)

Million see unexplained lights over northern Norway
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 10/12/2009 10:06

More from The Australian this morning.
Also check "opinion" in the heading bar.
There are also a number of other climate related articles as well.

Thank heavens cap and trade is dead by Gary Johns, a former minister in the Hawke Government.

And a very precautionary article very relevant to what is happening right now in Copenhagen, on what happens when you give enormous power to one mega UN agency.
In this example the UNAIDS agency.

Lobbyists at risk of UN AIDS syndrome
Posted by: mammatus mistress

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 10/12/2009 13:07

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/society-an...91209-kk69.html

Another opinion piece from the SMH.
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 10/12/2009 21:51

Sarah Palin decries 'hoax' of climate change data

Sarah Palin all but declared global warming a hoax yesterday when she urged President Obama to boycott the Copenhagen climate change conference and to stand up to the “radical environment movement”.

The former Alaska Governor and possible 2012 presidential contender seized upon leaked e-mails from climate change scientists at the University of East Anglia. The scientists have been accused by global warming sceptics of falsifying data to make the case that the phenomenon is real and man-made, something they deny.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article6950967.ece
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 10/12/2009 21:59

Al Gore rebuts Palin's climate change claims
Former Alaska governor says Obama should boycott Copenhagen summit

A former vice president and a former vice presidential nominee are engaged in a public battle over climate change, a tiff sparked by Sarah Palin's op-ed in Wednesday's Washington Post and furthered by Al Gore's rebuttal on MSNBC.

In a piece titled "Copenhagen's Political Science," the former Alaska governor charged that "leading climate 'experts'" have "destroyed records, manipulated data to 'hide the decline' in global temperatures, and tried to silence their critics by preventing them from publishing in peer-reviewed journals."

Gore bit back during an interview with NBC's Andrea Mitchell to air Wednesday afternoon. The former presidential candidate said "the deniers are persisting in an era of unreality. The entire North Polar ice cap is disappearing before our eyes ... what do they think is happening?"

(My yack)How many times have we seen the graphs of the recovery of the Arctic?? Somebody should show Albert (I'm on the gravy train) Gore them.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34325366/ns/politics/
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 13/12/2009 08:58

Global Warming Debate: John Christy vs. Gavin Schmidt

http://www.eyeblast.tv/public/video.aspx?v=GdaG6Upruz
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 14/12/2009 10:36

Plant pores 'could ease global warming'

Japanese researchers said on Thursday they had found a way to make plant leaves absorb more carbon dioxide in an innovation that may one day help ease global warming and boost food production.

The Kyoto University team found that soaking germinated seeds in a protein solution raised the number of pores, or stomas, on the leaves that inhale CO2 and release oxygen, said chief researcher Ikuko Hara-Nishimura.

"A larger number means there are more intake windows for carbon dioxide, contributing to lowering the density of the gas," she told AFP by telephone.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/technology/982224/plant-pores-could-ease-global-warming
Posted by: Keith

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 14/12/2009 11:16

Looking at the email posted in the 'layman' thread, it seems that the Japanese would be splitting hairs.
Posted by: Severely Tall

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 14/12/2009 11:28

Not necessarily Keith....even if we assume the non-anthropogenic form of global warming is correct (and im not saying it is...to me that whole laymans thing is a not in my backyard problem...we shouldnt just take the it aint my fault approach as others can use it as an excuse...very small amounts of CO2 are well established to be associated with warming the planet surface despite the miniscule contribution of this gas to the mass of the atmosphere...a large portion of the atmosphere is mostly inert as we all know) this could have very useful applications in moderating climatic variations say from a large volcanic outgassing....or other natural factors which can contribute to warming (and have so in the past). This seems to be the trend of a narrow view regarding any sort of innovation...even if we dont agree on the science such research can be very useful...the same could be said for the diversification of the power grid to non-fossil or more efficient sources.
Posted by: Keith

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 14/12/2009 15:05

Can we just keep this simple for the moment, without the political implications? What the layman wants to know, is how can such a small percentage of CO2 possibly cause significant warming if it increases?
Posted by: Severely Tall

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 14/12/2009 15:26

Nice dodge...maybe you should consider politics...

How is it necessary for us to once again go through the rather boring and repeditive task of explaining how CO2 influences climate? Its well established that the temperature of the surface of the earth would be far less without the greenhouse effect. As the largest constituent of greenhouse gases (water) is relatively consistent this means that given solar cycles suggest a minimum (well acknowledged here), and other factors do not appear to influence the surface temperature based on numerous studies of ice cores, the variables that change are the important greenhouse gases. Numerous times in this thread and that which preceeded it the CO2 vs Temperature relation has been shown... and it is clearly the case that temperature responds to increasing CO2 concerntration. One case for instance is the Cretaceous where CO2 was significantly greater, and associated with a much warmer global surface temperature despite other effects (some estimates suggest 15 degrees warmer)....but dont take my word for it...check the graphs yourself...the response to volcanic CO2 in the past is clear (as that way there is no bias in representation). So now that we realise temperature responds to CO2...ahhha....CO2 must be an important gas...even though it is such a small percentage....if you need any further evidence...look at the impact of methane which is an even smaller constituent. And dont think that this is just a pro-AGW thing....have a look at the opinions of those of the other side...they agree that CO2 is an important greenhouse gas...merely arguing that the natural component exceeds the human contribution.

The above "layman" explanation ignores the actual data...relying on the common perception that small doesnt really matter....it is an amusing take...but a poor attempt to take a shot at the science.
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 14/12/2009 16:11

800 years approx later the CO2 increases after the temperature rises, obviously from CO2 released from oceans as water warms up. and vice versa on cooling, clearly shows CO2 is not the instigator of the warming-cooling. Solar is the means of the warming cooling.
CO2 has a very small effect on temp after the intial rise...which we have well passed now. The positive feedback issue over negative feedbacks has never been proven by any scientific method and is just one theory...and there are many theories out there.
Posted by: Severely Tall

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 14/12/2009 17:08

And here we go again...lay argument gets taken back to the theory debate. I would love to see evidence to back your claims BD....as you state 'obviously' due to CO2 releases...tell me what does volcanic outgassing do to the greenhouse effect...while solar insolation is decreased associated with this type of event, we can still get an influence from the CO2? Solar is but one component.....why do we have a positive trend in surface temperatures when there is an obvious solar minimum? I would love to see your evidence regarding the "very small" effect on temp produced by CO2 in the context of the cretaceous...Naturally CO2 warming itself is a feedback process....warming of oceans to release more CO2, increasing warming...etc...yet you chose to ignore this? There might be many theories...but I wonder if you realise how many of those who do not agree with AGW still agree with the influence of CO2 on temperature...this is thoroughly peer reviewed by both sides and before the politicising.

As far as I can see one side of this debate is deperately seeking methods to discredit the other while all the while the evidence is piling up...this is exemplified by the non-uniform argument of those individuals...clearly if there was incontrevertable evidence that humans in no way influence the climate or are even in part responsible for the warming trend this would be the main thrust. Instead they pick...chose....run round in circles looking for the latest contraversy...rather than actually tackling the science and the theory as to why what currently appears to be happening is happening. One side is actually looking to explain the problem and prove the hypothesis...the other is unable to offer an explanation but is happy to take pot shots on anything they can find.
Posted by: Arnost

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 14/12/2009 17:18

ST: "One side is actually looking to explain the problem and prove the hypothesis..."

You can't prove anything. You can only falsify it (i.e. disprove it). Taking "pot shots" at the hypothesis is perfectly fair game, and in fact it is how science works (or at least should).

cheers
Posted by: Severely Tall

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 14/12/2009 17:47

Well actually Arnost (to be somewhat Philosophical...apologies all)...all scientists are trying to prove hypotheses...few ever actually prove anything incontravertibly...but it is the aim. In this context prove is actually a verb...as the action of trying to deliver evidence which supports a hypothesis such that it can be understood to be a fact. If we can't prove anything then one better tell the maths guys, Copernicus (sorry you cant prove that the Earth is not the centre of the universe)...and Einstein about it...as they may have wasted their lives. I would love for you to attempt to explain to me why a proof is impossible in more detail...and why you can only falsify it? Taking pot shots is fair game...but still doesn't mean that those who do not consider AGW to be a remote possibility do not have any evidence to back them up...and cannot offer alternate hypotheses (one of the primary mechanisms by which hypotheses are disproved). This is actually how science works...hypothesis, evidence, disproof, counter-hypothesis, evidence etc.
Posted by: Arnost

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 14/12/2009 18:27

ST, how many phenomenological laws are there? We can't prove (according to your definition) gravity. That does not mean we can't slingshot spacecraft all around the solar system with a high level of accuracy.

Climate science is like that, we have a fair understnding of the physics but our physical models absolutely suck at postdicting past temps. Hence me picking up on your "prove". Though I can't "prove" it, there is enough evidence out there that suggests that the past was warmer than today. And we did not reach any tipping points, and had those catastrophies so prevalent in the news.

I suggested that we could have bit of fun agreeing a past temperature record. I think that unless one unambiguously accounts for the historical record - from the Younger Dryas, through the Holocene Optimum, Roman and Medieval Warming periods, the Little Ice Age, and most importantly the mid 20th C "hump", any physical models are suspect.

One does not need a counter hypothesis to what is already a counter hypothesis to the work of HH Lamb, Brookes and the other last century climatologists who identified natural variations which far better fitted the observational historical records and the (now downplayed) proxy data. You can't prove anyhing by cherrypicking, excluding and adjusting data. That is the problem.
Posted by: Severely Tall

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 14/12/2009 18:55

Nor should you be able to disprove by cherrypicking, excluding or adjusting data....all cupable measure by which individuals have previously touted on this forum...I cite poor understanding of running averages and trends, taking certain studies out of context...or assuming them to be more important than they actually are just to name a couple.

Unless you have misinterpreted my sarcasm, I fail to see how you can claim that we cannot prove gravity. Let me explain....by my method, I believe there to be a force acting on an object towards the surface of the earth. I test this force by say..dropping my pen..others test it in a myriad of fashions by looking at the motion of planets etc...each of these contribute to the concept of gravity as a fact....hence we have 'prooved' for want of a better term...and outside the mathematical definition our hypothesis of a force towards the centre of a body of mass...in this special case towards earth.

now to quote:
Quote:
One does not need a counter hypothesis to what is already a counter hypothesis to the work of HH Lamb, Brookes and the other last century climatologists who identified natural variations which far better fitted the observational historical records and the (now downplayed) proxy data.

Sorry...missed the bit where proxy data was 'downplayed' given Ice core data seems to provide good evidence of the CO2/temperature relation....dont ask me... I fail to see how the 'climatologists' identified natural variations which fitted the short term historical records that they used and the proxy data...is relevant to the current warming trend....what were their findings? Can you cite papers? (and if these is to do with the cooling papers of the 70's please dont bother...ive been there and laughed at that). Do these trends match perfectly the current environment...as models seem to do a very good job of the past 30 years.There can be more than 2 hypotheses at any one time...multiple counters, or counters to counters.

The reasons as I have previously stated for not using physical models to the geological timescales you suggest is simple and relies on their being no way to obtain observational data without significant error or approximation associated. If you cant verify your computer model against real data how exactly can you know that it is wrong? Another reason is the computational power required...to do so requires models which function on geological timescales: the associated solar changes, continental drift just thinking off hand...that at the current resources in inconcievable...maybe in the future...but until then the proxy data comparisons will have to do.

oh and:
Quote:
Though I can't "prove" it, there is enough evidence out there that suggests that the past was warmer than today. And we did not reach any tipping points, and had those catastrophies so prevalent in the news.

I never argued this...there have been times in the past warmer than today...this is a moot point...we know this its obvious...during the cretaceous there was zero ice...global mean temperatures were up to 15 degrees warmers....there is even evidence to suggest a climate change of 8 degrees in 10 years in parts of the geological record...we also know this...that this wouldnt be the greatest climatic shift. HOWEVER. The impacts of the current changing climate suggests it has a greater potential to effect the world as we know it....as it is now. Low lying islands are physically flooding in the South Pacific.....land based ice is melting and contributing to an increasing sea level....species which are sensitive to the climate will suffer (i particularly refer to corals, and their associated food chain, C4 plants etc.) While this may not be unprecedented as some radicals suggest, it is unique in that we may have influenced it...either directly or indirectly. This influence essentially means we are possibly wiping out species, having our way of life altered....humans hate change...and hence the opposition. While some such as Simmosturf may be happy as they dont believe it will effect their backyard...these things have habit of impacting on us indirectly.

Now id better stop procrastinating and finish this report...then ill be back to discuss further.
Posted by: Vlasta

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 14/12/2009 23:23

Originally Posted By: Simmosturf
Plant pores 'could ease global warming'

Japanese researchers said on Thursday they had found a way to make plant leaves absorb more carbon dioxide in an innovation that may one day help ease global warming and boost food production.

The Kyoto University team found that soaking germinated seeds in a protein solution raised the number of pores, or stomas, on the leaves that inhale CO2 and release oxygen, said chief researcher Ikuko Hara-Nishimura.

"A larger number means there are more intake windows for carbon dioxide, contributing to lowering the density of the gas," she told AFP by telephone.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/technology/982224/plant-pores-could-ease-global-warming

I would love to see more from reserchers who are positiv as above . Who knows, what nature will do in 50 years time , when we reached "the point of no return" . It could be this simple , when there is abundant CO2 , nature slowly evolve plants which thrives on it and when we used all fossil fuels , just let them die . Nobody can disprove this. And it is most likely to happen anyway.
Posted by: marakai

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 14/12/2009 23:43

Quote:
The impacts of the current changing climate suggests it has a greater potential to effect the world as we know it....as it is now. Low lying islands are physically flooding in the South Pacific.....


These low lying Islands are mostly Coral Atolls, which lay upon extinct volcanoes which have a habit of sinking, not only that the coral which they are built by have a habit of decaying.


Quote:
land based ice is melting and contributing to an increasing sea level....species which are sensitive to the climate will suffer (i particularly refer to corals, and their associated food chain, C4 plants etc.) While this may not be unprecedented as some radicals suggest, it is unique in that we may have influenced it...either directly or indirectly.


Sea levels rise and fall all the time, current levels of rise are well within normal variability, Corals just happen to occur in tropical waters IE Warm water's , if it is the bleaching you are referring to, don't you think it strange that with the increased number of people looking for bleached Coral we have an increased incidence of Bleaching? Bleaching has occurred since Coral evolved, and only occurs in species of zooxanthellae that cant handle handle the particular heat in that particular body of Water, they also readily re-populate after the event. It is not unprecedented by a long shot Nor is it unique in any way at all. It would happen with or without the Human Species being present, It might surprise you to know that there are plenty of Ex coral reefs out there that now provide abundant supply's of limestone for the Concrete industry.





Quote:
This influence essentially means we are possibly wiping out species, having our way of life altered....humans hate change...and hence the opposition. While some such as Simmosturf may be happy as they dont believe it will effect their backyard...these things have habit of impacting on us indirectly.

We do not need Climate change to be capable of wiping out species S.T, nor to have our lives altered, both we and mother nature are quite capable of doing both by ourselves without needing a crutch like Climate change to lean on.

Humans thrive on change, if it was not for change we would not exist, it was change that drove our evolution, change that lets us excel as a species, and it is what we do best, why do you think we are having this discussion instead of nibbling Carnivore kill on a plain in Africa?
Posted by: mobihci

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 15/12/2009 00:09

Originally Posted By: Severely Tall
Naturally CO2 warming itself is a feedback process....warming of oceans to release more CO2, increasing warming...etc...


how does a lack of solar influence or predictable natural cycle of cooling prevent a buildup of heat on the earth if the co2 influence is claimed to be more or greater than the solar or predictable natural cycle when both the co2 level and temperature have been higher and the earth cooled over that period? in other words, how exactly does a reduction of co2 occur when it is already established that the natural driver does not have as much influence of the temperature change as the co2 does?

you can say volcanoes, but they are not timed as in cycles. you can say continental drift, but the cooling occurs over periods where little or no drift are in play such as the simple time period of the lia where co2 could not prevent cooling. you can say that the influence of the solar or natural predictable cycle is higher than the co2 in the reduction phase, but we all know that it is not possible to change the function of co2 or it wouldnt be called co2.

so what is it?
Posted by: Arnost

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 15/12/2009 00:20

ST, Since we’re philosophical…

I’m a fan of the punctuated equilibrium theory of evolution. (Now Stephen Jay G may not have got everything quite right as Richard D points out, but I still think that it is close to where the truth will eventually be found - that is if it ever is…)

Science I think also evolves through similar stages of punctuated equilibrium. i.e. Thomas Kuhn’s Paradigm Shifts. It typically progresses from one mistake to another - sometimes to a lesser, and sometimes a greater one. (These mistakes are typically only identified once more data and better understanding or insight roll in… but there are cases where we KNOW that the theory is wrong as there are known exceptions which invalidate the theory, but since we just don’t have a better explanation, we live with it i.e. the punctuation phase and wait for the next great insight that will herald the paradigm shift).

I will agree that adjusting data has no role to play, however with respect to cherrypicking, I draw your attention to Poincare’s quote in my signature line. Powerful stuff that. Accounting for exceptions is at the core of science. Does not matter how beautiful a theory is, and how well it accounts for observations – if there is one, just one tiny flaw, one pernicious unexplained observation – then we are just waiting for it to be replaced by a better one.

Now to quote:

Quote:
Taking pot shots is fair game...but still doesn't mean that those who do not consider AGW to be a remote possibility do not have any evidence to back them up...and cannot offer alternate hypotheses (one of the primary mechanisms by which hypotheses are disproved)

As per my ramblings above, it is hubris to suggest that unless you provide a better hypothesis / theory that therefore you can’t identify flaws…



Quote:
WRT Gravity…I test this force by say..dropping my pen..others test it in a myriad of fashions by looking at the motion of planets etc...each of these contribute to the concept of gravity as a fact....hence we have 'prooved' for want of a better term...

And then we find that Pioneer, Ulysses and Galileo spacecraft are not behaving like they should (see Pioneer anomaly), and we find that the Cosmos doesn’t hang together as it should (see Dark Matter), and then can’t explain how quantum theory and relativity cant simultaneously explain gravity (see quantum gravity) and we have no idea whether gravity is a wave or a particle (see virtual gravitons and virtual photons) … and whether gravity’s effect is faster than light but is finite and and and…

SWAGS most of the above – we just don’t know…

Quote:
Sorry...missed the bit where proxy data was 'downplayed' given Ice core data seems to provide good evidence of the CO2/temperature relation

GISP2 animation Need I say more? Just ask

Quote:
as models seem to do a very good job of the past 30 years.

You know that’s VERY debatable. See Lucia’s ongoing analysis on this… If it hadn’t been for El Chichon and Pinatubo the world’s temps would have been flat for over 30 years! Why adjust the temp record so pedantically for every imagined inhomogeniety yet not adjust for volcanic effects if you are comparing the trend to CO2 forcing?

Quote:
Low lying islands are physically flooding in the South Pacific...

Volcanic atolls sink, removing ground water causes subsidence, blasting the fringing coral to allow shipping in to the atoll, and ENSO caused sea level fluctuations explains most of the “sea level rises” in Tuvalu, the Carterets or wherever is the current poster child of global warming inundation… Riddle me this – why is the mean tide mark on the Isle of the Dead more or less where it was put in 1841?

Quote:
species which are sensitive to the climate will suffer (i particularly refer to corals, and their associated food chain, C4 plants etc.)

While it is truly unfortunate that mankind’s impact on nature is devastating, it is not temperatures that are the main driver… coral bleaching is attributable to fresh water influx, nutrient runoffs – not to a less than a degree rise in SSTs; there’s been a recent study that casts a shadow of doubt on the negative impact on biota as a consequence of the acidification of the oceans linky; and C4 plants didn’t really exist prior to the Miocene – it is only when 15 million years or so ago CO2 levels dropped to current levels and C3 plants starved for lack of CO2 that C4 plants outcompeted them and became well established linky.

Quote:
humans hate change...and hence the opposition.

I could very well argue that most “skeptics” accept change and it is the “warmers” that are the reactionary ones trying to ensure statism…


I leave you to think about this quote from Karl Popper:
Quote:
“Whenever a theory appears to you as the only possible one, take this as a sign that you have neither understood the theory nor the problem which it was intended to solve”

Posted by: marakai

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 15/12/2009 00:52

AGW debate 10:15 on ABC Lateline between Monbiot and Plimmer 10,15pm 15/12/09 EST, should be interesting but I wont be holding my breath for a fair debate with Jones running the Show, shame it wasn't Flannery. Tho I guess that Tim had his fair share of talk on tonights show with not one interruption and a good bash at the opposition with plenty of Ruddy support and no opposing view.

I get more sickened by the blatant bias everyday by OUR ABC.
Posted by: Arnost

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 15/12/2009 00:54

Copenhagen climate summit negotiations 'suspended'

What a great headline to go to bed on... One can only dream!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8411898.stm
Posted by: Arnost

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 15/12/2009 14:08

Quote:
A surge in sunshine more than 60 years ago helped Swiss mountain glaciers melt faster than today, ... The researchers found from historic data on three Swiss glaciers, as well as radiation recordings from the eastern Alpine town of Davos, that the level of sunshine in the 1940s was eight percent higher than average and significantly higher than now.


http://www.physorg.com/news180024364.html

I think that the implication is that there was reduced cloud cover then... But that's a guess.
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 16/12/2009 06:27

Global Warming's Real Inconvenient Truth

As the private jet-flying, limousine-riding hypocrites address the world's catastrophic warming in Copenhagen, let me share with you what Canada's national newspaper, The Financial Post, had to say about it:

"The 'inconvenient truth' overhanging the U.N.'s Copenhagen conference is not that the climate is warming or cooling, but that humans are overpopulating the world.... A planetary law, such as China's one-child policy, is the only way to reverse the disastrous global birthrate currently, which is one million births every four days."

This isn't some conspiracy notion. Look it up, it's right there in print. It also happens to be law in the most populace nation on Earth. And we're being bombarded with this climate change catastrophe hysteria every day.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,580227,00.html
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 16/12/2009 18:30

From the "Weather, not Climate" department although I would think that the Edmonton folk up in Canada might appreciate a bit of global warming at the moment
And I would just about lay odds that not many Edmonton's still believe in global warming.
From the Edmonton Journal
Quote:

EDMONTON — Edmonton's weather boasted two dubious distinctions Sunday: it was colder here than anywhere else in North America and it marked the coldest Dec. 13 in the city's history.

Environment Canada recorded a frigid minus 46.1 C, or minus 58.4 C with the wind chill, at the Edmonton International Airport at 5 a.m., said meteorologist Pierre Lessard.

The old record of minus 36.1 C was set last year.

"To break a temperature by 10 degrees is very exceptional," said Lessard.
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 16/12/2009 21:00

Please, how much longer must this crap go on???

Snow, heavy rain and tornadoes in Spain

Once again on Sunday it seems the weather services failed to give effective warnings as Madrid saw heavy snow and chaos on the region’s roads. The A-6 and A-1 were jammed for most of Sunday morning, following the heavy snow from 11am, although to a lesser extent to that seen on January 9.
The opposition Partido Popular once again criticised the Minister for Development, Magdalena Álvarez. Once again there have been delays at Madrid’s Barajas Airport.

The Ebro river is swollen with 1m400 cubic metres of water flowing per second in Zaragoza. A pre-emergency plan remains in force in the city, in the case of any flooding.

Climate change is being blamed for the colder winter and hotter summer being seen in Spain, with this winter in already 1.5 degrees colder than average and with a Spring and Summer 2.1 degrees hotter. Experts at Alicante University say that climate will become more extreme in the province over the next decade.

http://www.typicallyspanish.com/news/publish/article_19860.shtml
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 17/12/2009 18:16

Thank you for signing my climate change petition and for demanding
greater accountability of the Government.

As supporters of the petition I wanted to give you a personal update
of what I’ve been up to at the Copenhagen Climate Conference.

Since I arrived in Copenhagen on Saturday I’ve been busy at the COP
15 conference hearing numerous speakers as well as meeting with a
number of politicians from around the world and various NGOs.

One interesting person who I sat beside was Borjn Lomberg. Although
Mr Lomberg is actually on the record as believing that carbon dioxide
emissions are the leading cause of climate change, he was still very
critical of scheme like the Rudd Government’s CPRS and thought it
was bad public policy. According to Mr Lomberg, an ETS will not do
anything to stop climate change and will just be a big windfall for
the bankers and brokers and other financial institutions, while
ordinary Australian families are left to foot the bill. Given that
there is clearly a growing opposition to the government’s CPRS, and
now even from people like Mr Lomberg who don’t have questions about
the science, it’s now clearer than ever that we need a proper
inquiry into the scheme before we go any further with it.

As far as what is happening here in relation to negotiations between
the different countries, to be blunt things are a total mess and it
doesn’t appear likely that there’ll be any meaningful agreement by
Friday.

However, there is talk of a three tiered system which would see one
rule for China and the US, another for developed nations and
compensation for the rest.

This is hardly a fair deal as it will disadvantage Australia and
impact upon many hard working families. This is something we don’t
want to see happen as it would destroy our economy and see thousands
of jobs being booted offshore.

Debate about whether man made carbon dioxide emissions are the main
driver of climate change has been muted over here, but that only makes
me more determined to find why the temperature over the last 15 years
has remained steady while carbon dioxide emissions have sky rocketed.

As things develop further I’ll keep you posted.

Regards,

Steve F

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Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 18/12/2009 05:34

God does have a sense of humour!

Blizzard Dumps Snow on Copenhagen as Leaders Battle Warming

Dec. 17 (Bloomberg) -- World leaders flying into Copenhagen today to discuss a solution to global warming will first face freezing weather as a blizzard dumped 10 centimeters (4 inches) of snow on the Danish capital overnight.
“Temperatures will stay low at least the next three days,” Henning Gisseloe, an official at Denmark’s Meteorological Institute, said today by telephone, forecasting more snow in coming days. “There’s a good chance of a white Christmas.”

Delegates from 193 countries have been in Copenhagen since Dec. 7 to discuss how to fund global greenhouse gas emission cuts. U.S. President Barack Obama will arrive before the summit is scheduled to end tomorrow.

Denmark has a maritime climate and milder winters than its Scandinavian neighbors. It hasn’t had a white Christmas for 14 years, under the DMI’s definition, and only had seven last century. Temperatures today fell as low as minus 4 Celsius (25 Fahrenheit).
DMI defines a white Christmas as 90 percent of the country being covered by at least 2 centimeters of snow on the afternoon of Dec. 24.
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 18/12/2009 06:07

Rudd offering money to dilute climate deal: Tuvalu

The small Pacific island nation of Tuvalu says it has been offered money by Australia to water down its draft proposal at the climate change conference.

But Tuvalu says it has rejected the offer.

Tuvalu is leading the charge for a legally binding treaty that keeps a rise in temperature below 1.5 degrees celsius. Any higher and the low lying nation says it will disappear due to rising sea levels.

The Prime Minister of Tuvalu, Apisai Ielemia, says these negotiations have left a bitter taste and developed nations are trying to offer money to cut a deal.

"There are countries like Australia who have been trying to arrange a meeting with us to probably water down our position to 1.5 degree celsius," he said.

"We didn't attend that meeting and I heard from my colleagues from the smaller island nations that's what the Australian PM was trying to tell them."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/12/18/2775233.htm
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 18/12/2009 07:22

This assessment of costs associated with the Green taxes and green regulations from the British Taxpayers' Alliance makes the eyes water at the costs imposed on every aspect of society.

For the British economy and people, "The burden of green taxes and regulations, net of road spending, in 2008-09 was £26.4 billion." [ AUD $48 billion. ]

It really gives us here in Australia something to look forward to if KRudd, Wong and the green fanatics get their way and impose theses sorts of immense cost burdens on our industry and society.
And for what?
A thousandth of a degree reduction in global temperatures by 2100 perhaps! ie; in 90 years time!
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 18/12/2009 09:18

"Reporting from Beijing - In the debate over global warming, some historical meteorologists in China pose a contrarian view.

Their theory, in a nutshell? Some like it hot.

Looking back over the millenniums, these scientists suggest that China has prospered during periods when temperatures are higher than usual. Conversely, they point out, cold spells have accompanied tragedies along the order of barbarian invasions, collapsing dynasties and civil war.

The proposition that global warming might actually be good for China, or at least a mixed blessing, has been quietly discussed -- and largely dismissed -- in academic circles here.

Those who see possible good in global warming for China rarely speak about it publicly, fearing that they will be seen as being out of step with the scientific mainstream.

But beneath the surface, the theory is not completely discounted.

"There are many different opinions in China about global warming, but people express them only in private," said Ge Jianxiong, director of the institute of Chinese history and geographic studies at Shanghai's Fudan University.

Scientific studies show that the Mongol invasions under Genghis Khan at the beginning of the 13th century were hastened by a sharp drop in temperatures and the phenomenon known as desertification.

"With the cold temperatures there was a drought in Mongolia. Since people were eating livestock which fed on the grasslands, they needed to go south," said Xie Zhenghui, of the Chinese Academy of Sciences' International Center for Climate and Environmental Sciences. "When there was warmer weather and more rain, the Mongols didn't need to attack the south."

The same went for pre-Khan invaders. The Western Zhou dynasty came to an abrupt end in 771 BC, when the effects of cold weather drove barbarian tribes southward to sack the city of Xian, the capital whose glory is epitomized in the artistry of the terra-cotta warriors.

Higher temperatures, on the other hand, have marked periods of major progress.

During the Shang dynasty, (1766-1050 BC), when China began developing its writing system, the average temperature around the Yellow River basin where China was centered was about 52 degrees, slightly higher than today's average.

The golden age of Chinese classics, epitomized by the life of Confucius (551-479 BC) and the Tang dynasty (AD 618-907), which many historians consider the high point of Chinese power and civilization, also coincided with warmer than average weather.

Temperatures also have been rising since Mao Tse-tung's founding of the People's Republic of China in 1949, most sharply in the 1980s and '90s -- the same period the Chinese economy exploded.

"Historically, when the temperatures were warmer, the dynasties were more prosperous," said Xie, of the Chinese Academy of Sciences. "That led some people to theorize that global warming might be good for China."

Xie hastened to add that the theory has been largely dismissed in academic circles -- in large part because it focused on northern dynasties, when in fact the center of power has been shifting southward......"

And the ending to the article...
"At the extreme end, some Chinese believe that climate change will hasten the coming of an era in which China dominates at the expense of Europe, where temperatures could drop as a result of a weakening of warming Atlantic ocean currents caused by melting glaciers.

"Europe will become as cold as Siberia. Much arable land will disappear and the continent will no longer be fit for human habitation," a Chinese blogger who writes under the name Feitie Zhiyi suggested in a posting last week. "China should emit more CO2 and make the world warmer! This will only do good to China and bring nothing bad.

"As for the Europeans, it's better to freeze all of them to death!"".......(not very nice!!!)

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation-and-world/la-fg-china-hot17-2009dec17,0,3842540.story
Posted by: ColdFront

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 18/12/2009 09:24

Maybe that's their plan? wink
Posted by: SBT

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 18/12/2009 11:17

Quote:
As the great science philosopher Karl Popper once pointed out, any proposition that cannot be falsified by any evidence is not science but religion.

http://www.climatesceptics.com.au/climate-change/

Sums it all up nicely I thought.
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 21/12/2009 07:23

I don't know if this has anything to do with global warming but I bet it's caused by it!!!

Cold snap strands thousands of travellers

Tens of thousands of European travellers have been stranded in rail stations, traffic jams and airports as heavy snow and ice continues to cause massive disruptions at the start of the Christmas holiday season.

A deadly blizzard has also blanketed much of the eastern United States, cutting power to tens of thousands of homes, paralysing air traffic and stranding many motorists amid the worst storms to hit the region in decades.

In Poland, at least 15 people have died of exposure, mainly the homeless or careless drunks caught outside in temperatures that plunged to minus 20 degrees Celsius, according to police.

Another homeless Pole froze to death while sheltering in a doorway in the French Mediterranean port of Marseille, and a Frenchman was found dead in his ice-cold caravan near the northern town of Arras.

In Germany, a 46-year-old homeless man froze to death overnight in the southwestern city of Mannheim while sleeping on a bare pavement, while temperatures in Bavaria plunged to a glacial -33.6C.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/12/20/2776968.htm
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 21/12/2009 10:26

snow on some mediterraen beaches also in a pic I saw somewhere today,
plus
here it is
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/12/19/bleach-blanket-brrr-go/#more-14310
plus
Record snowfalls in Valdez Alaska sinks boat and Washington DC gets a new snowfall record
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/12/20/re...nowfall-record/


[Plus this from Telgraph news:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/6847227/...a-Pachauri.html
One would think that this is not in order for someone in his position, if it is all true. Politicians cannot do this, so why should he be able to do so?]
Posted by: SBT

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 21/12/2009 18:21

Because the whole thing is nothing but a rort BD.
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 22/12/2009 08:45

Another massive fraud case involving Cap and Trade.
This time in the USA.
And this is in all probability only the tip of the iceberg and will get much worse if C&P, ETS and etc are put in place in countries like Australia.
Financial crime on a massive scale is only to be expected when you cannot quantify, identify, catergorise, locate, follow, trace or verify in any way the parcel / object you are trading, selling or buying.
Trading hot air is the perfect vechile for large scale financial crime and will set many sophisticated white collar criminals up for life.

US Court Orders Records Unsealed In Cap-And-Trade Fraud Case
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 22/12/2009 16:19

A very good and unbiased report

MUST SEE: Global Warming, Or A Lot of Hot Air? (FoxNews Dec 20 2009)

http://climaterealists.com/index.php
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 23/12/2009 07:56

VIP PAPER PEER REVIEWED

"From the University of Waterloo press release.


WATERLOO, Ont. (Monday, Dec. 21, 2009) - Cosmic rays and chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs), both already implicated in depleting the Earth’s ozone layer, are also responsible for changes in the global climate, a University of Waterloo scientist reports in a new peer-reviewed paper.

In his paper, Qing-Bin Lu, a professor of physics and astronomy, shows how CFCs – compounds once widely used as refrigerants – and cosmic rays – energy particles originating in outer space – are mostly to blame for climate change, rather than carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions. His paper, derived from observations of satellite, ground-based and balloon measurements as well as an innovative use of an established mechanism, was published online in the prestigious journal Physics Reports.

“My findings do not agree with the climate models that conventionally thought that greenhouse gases, mainly CO2, are the major culprits for the global warming seen in the late 20th century,” Lu said. “Instead, the observed data show that CFCs conspiring with cosmic rays most likely caused both the Antarctic ozone hole and global warming. These findings are totally unexpected and striking, as I was focused on studying the mechanism for the formation of the ozone hole, rather than global warming.”

His conclusions are based on observations that from 1950 up to now, the climate in the Arctic and Antarctic atmospheres has been completely controlled by CFCs and cosmic rays, with no CO2 impact.

“Most remarkably, the total amount of CFCs, ozone-depleting molecules that are well-known greenhouse gases, has decreased around 2000,” Lu said. “Correspondingly, the global surface temperature has also dropped. In striking contrast, the CO2 level has kept rising since 1850 and now is at its largest growth rate.”

In his research, Lu discovers that while there was global warming from 1950 to 2000, there has been global cooling since 2002. The cooling trend will continue for the next 50 years, according to his new research observations."
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/12/22/st...ing/#more-14426
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 24/12/2009 07:00

And yet even another repeat from the Weather not Climate department! Yeah! well ??

2 feet for Christmas? You better watch out

And the heat from global warming was supposed to be the real killer and that was the claim of the warmistas despite the statistics from the USA and the UK that definitively show that cold weather kills far more people than any hot weather.

Winter freeze kills 79 in Poland

European weather deaths pass 100

And the stupidity just goes on and on!

Polluting pets: the devastating impact of man's best friend

Shock, horror, the end is nigh. Our profits are falling!!

Carbon prices fall in wake of Copenhagen
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 25/12/2009 09:19

Global Warming in the Days of Old With Vikings Bold


Howard Bloom reminds us that Mother Nature has her own way of doing things ("Climate Change Is Nature's Way," op-ed, Dec. 17). Twenty-thousand years ago, ice was one to two miles thick over New England, New York and the Upper Midwest, part of the Laurentide Ice Sheet. About 15,000 years ago, the earth started to warm and the glacier stopped advancing. A thousand or so years later there was a sudden (by geological standards) increase in the Earth's temperature and over the period of another thousand-plus years the glacier disappeared. There was so much water released by the melting ice cap that the Atlantic Ocean rose some 400 feet, more than three inches a year.

About a thousand years ago, it was warm enough that the Vikings established settlements in Greenland and did farming. The Little Ice Age started around 1200 A.D. and among the victims were those same settlements—they disappeared. Yes, Mother Nature has her ways, and we should be expanding our horizons to include what's happening in our solar system.

Should we develop alternative energy sources? Yes. Should we become more energy efficient? Absolutely. But not for climate-change reasons.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704304504574610043933381158.html
Posted by: SBT

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 27/12/2009 17:11

An old cartoon but a good one.
Posted by: davidg

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 27/12/2009 19:14

Lol SBT, i think we should have a crackdown on people burning stuff in 44 gallon drums to keep warm. Theyre just going to have to go cold for the sake of the greater good.
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 28/12/2009 11:41

877 new snowfall records set or tied in the USA in the last week
27-12-2009
And that’s not all, for the week ending Dec 13th, there were 815 new snowfall records set. December 2009 is shaping up to be quite the snowmaker.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/12/27/87...eek/#more-14564
Posted by: BOM99

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 28/12/2009 21:14

yet ottawa has been a balmy zero deg and central europe has had a substantial thaw with temps of +10, just depends on how its reported
Posted by: Flying Binghi (2)

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 31/12/2009 04:14

via Jimmy Wales - "...People need to know how to differentiate between information that is published on legitimate sites that follow defined standards and also possibly a professional code of ethics, and information published in places like gossip sites whose only goal is to post the most outrageous headlines and stories in order to increase traffic. People can and will learn to shun and avoid such sites over time, particularly with education about why they are unethical......blah, blah, blah..........."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704107104574572101333074122.html


Ethics and standards eh...... Outrageous wankfest Wales seems to have forgotten all about Wikipedia website administrator Connolley......

"...Connolley rewrote Wikipedia's articles on global warming, on the greenhouse effect, on the instrumental temperature record, on the urban heat island, on climate models, on global cooling. On Feb. 14, he began to erase the Little Ice Age; on Aug. 11, the Medieval Warm Period. In October, he turned his attention to the hockey stick graph. He rewrote articles on the politics of global warming and..."......cont.

http://spectator.org/archives/2009/12/30/wikipedia-meets-its-own-climat/
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/01/2010 08:23

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=42067
"A wave of frigid air spilled down over Europe and Russia from the Arctic in mid-December, creating a deadly cold snap. According to BBC.com, at least 90 people had died in Europe, including 79 people, mostly homeless, in Poland. In places, the bitter cold was accompanied by heavy snow, which halted rail and air traffic for several days during the week of Christmas"
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/01/2010 08:47

Climate Change 101: Does carbon dioxide cause global warming?

Examiner: Does carbon dioxide cause global warming?

Singer: Carbon dioxide is a trace gas that doesn't produce any heat of its own, but it does act like a blanket. Most solar rays pass through it, warming the earth. Most heat radiated from earth is absorbed and then re-emitted by the CO2 or, more importantly, by water vapor. That's why CO2 is called a "greenhouse gas", even though it doesn't actually retain heat in exactly that same way that a sealed greenhouse does. Nevertheless, it is certainly one factor that affects the amount of retained heat on earth and therefore the dominant temperature.

In theory, any warming caused by CO2 will be most evident in the upper troposphere, where most commercial airliners fly, particularly over the tropics. If atmospheric CO2 were the primary cause of increased global temperatures, the increase would be even more pronounced at those altitudes. The most accurate measurements indicated that, over the last three decades, there has only been slight warming. So, it's very hard to make the case that CO2 is a primary factor. [Reference] [Reference]

More important, the Vostok ice core studies demonstrate that increased CO2 concentrations follow the millennial temperature increases by about a thousand years. That's been true for hundreds of thousands of years. The common sense view is that warming causes more CO2, not that higher CO2 causes warming. Of course, there are fudge factors. We don't know exactly how fast CO2 is absorbed - we call it 'sequestered' - in the oceans during temperature declines, nor do we know how fast it is released when atmospheric temperatures rise. What we don't know far exceeds what we do know.

What people should know is that CO2 is only one of a half-dozen greenhouse gases [GHG] in the atmosphere. Most of them have a stronger effect on warming than CO2 and the overwhelming GHG is simple water vapor. Almost all of the alarming computer models have to assume some positive feedback effect, so that CO2 increases cause more water vapor, multiplying the greenhouse effect, in order to portray CO2 as a causative effect of warming. Those computer models have thousands of related assumptions that haven't been scientifically demonstrated by actual, confirmed testing.

So, to answer your question, yes: CO2 concentrations certainly have some effect on global temperatures. It's just that the predicted effects aren't evident and CO2 alone may be a relatively insignificant factor in warming.


http://www.examiner.com/x-33398-LA-Public-Policy-Examiner~y2009m12d30-Climate-Change-101-Does-carbon-dioxide-cause-global-warming
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/01/2010 16:11

The Carbon Tax Deception

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gK-VNS87xFk&feature=related
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/01/2010 16:21

Global Warming Theory DESTROYED By 20/20's John Stossel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoDZQApqpSs&feature=related
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/01/2010 16:36

And this is the biggest problem with educating natural climate change deniers!!!


Lord Monckton addresses a Greenpeace-campaigner on global warming

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzkB5DuveDE&feature=related
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 03/01/2010 07:56

"Britain facing one of the coldest winters in 100 years, experts predict
Britain is bracing itself for one of the coldest winters for a century with temperatures hitting minus 16 degrees Celsius, forecasters have warned.

Nick Britten
Published: 8:00AM GMT 02 Jan 2010

Parts of Scotland have had snowcover for nearly three weeks
They predicted no let up in the freezing snap until at least mid-January, with snow, ice and severe frosts dominating.

And the likelihood is that the second half of the month will be even colder.

Weather patterns were more like those in the late 1970s, experts said, while Met Office figures released on Monday are expected to show that the country is experiencing the coldest winter for up to 25 years."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/topics/weathe...ts-predict.html
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 04/01/2010 19:42

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/04/2785215.htm?section=justin
"Beijing has been hit by its biggest snowfalls in decades, forcing flights to be cancelled and closing highways and schools.

Snowfalls of up to 20 centimetres hit the outskirts of the Chinese capital.

In recent years Beijing's freezing winters have been largely without snow due to the arid nature of the climate, but large dumps of snow have covered the city in a blanket of white.

Temperatures in Beijing have dropped below -10 degrees Celsius and will be colder into the night"
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 05/01/2010 06:41

China blames freak storm on global warming
BEIJING: Freak snowstorms and record low temperatures sweeping northern China are linked to global warming, say Chinese officials.

But, unlike the unseasonal snow falls that hit Beijing at the start of winter, the dump this week appears to have no link to the Government's relentless efforts to change the micro climate.

There are about 2000 weather modification offices in China, according to the media, which are responsible for bombing the skies with silver iodide to induce precipitation.

More than 2 million Beijing and Tianjin students were given the day off school yesterday because traffic was in chaos. On Sunday the capital received its biggest snow dump since 1951, immediately followed by the harshest Siberian winds in decades.

Tomorrow morning the mercury is forecast to plunge to minus 16, a 40-year low, after a day-time maximum of minus 8.
Cold weather has sent the mercury well below zero in:
CITIES SHIVER AROUND GLOBE
Moscow -20C

Beijing -14C

Berlin -8C

New York -7C

London -5C

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/china-blames-freak-storm-on-global-warming-20100104-lq6t.html
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 05/01/2010 07:15

Ah! Of course all this shocking cold and snow in USA, Europe, North India and China is caused by global warming...Why did I not think of that???!!!
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 05/01/2010 10:14

If you really want to see what is happening re the intense cold in the northern hemi and what is currently being reported, go to the Drudge Report.
The scale and severity of the cold is truly quite mind bending.
I just hope it is a short term phenomena and not a harbinger of the climate to come in the near future.
If this year's northern winter is a harbinger of the future global climate, mankind will be in deep trouble over his food supplies in the near future.
And as already been pointed out in a couple of posts quoting the Younger Dryas Period [ which started some 13 thousand years ago] a few weeks ago, it is known from geological records that the Earth can drop into a new and extreme climate regime, be it colder or warmer, in less than a decade.

And this type of extreme cold weather was NEVER on the global warming list even though there is now a lot of back tracking from the warmistas who are attempting to now say that these short term weather events are to be expected.

They NEVER ever said or admitted that a couple of years ago.

It was just going to be a monotonic warming trend right on up for the next hundred years, extended to a couple of hundred years and even a thousand or so years in a couple of rather stupid predictions from "climate scientists" [ ? ].
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 05/01/2010 10:25

Oh dear, back from a pseudo-holiday, and it is hot in summer in the southern hemisphere and cold in winter in the northern hemisphere.

But worst of all, ABC News has this minute or so reported that the 'decade just ended' has been the warmest on record in Australia.

Which decade? The first decade of the 21st century doesn't end until midnight on 31 December, at the end of this year. Blair....please put a rocket up whomever committed this atrocity with the calandar at BoM and bring back some notion of accuracy in reporting.
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 05/01/2010 12:30

Wet start for ‘big rain’ year

Former CSIRO researcher forecasts the end of our big dry

WANGARATTA’S wet start to 2010 is a sign of things to come, according to local weather forecaster Peter Nelson.

The former CSIRO weather research officer for 34 years, who has pursued his hobby of long range weather forecasting since moving to Wangaratta two years ago, believes 2010 will end the city’s sequence of dry years which have persisted since 1997.

In fact, Mr Nelson is expecting Wangaratta’s wettest year since 1995, when over 800mm of rainfall was recorded – well above our 664mm average, and almost double that of 2009.

"I’m right about 75 per cent of the time, although I’ve had about 90 per cent accuracy in some years…and I’m confident of this outlook," he said, huddled under his umbrella.

"Following near average rainfall this month, the next two months are expected to be drier and warmer than usual, with not much rainfall until the fourth week of March.

"During the second and fourth weeks of April heavy rain and thunderstorms are expected while May will be a very wet month, over 100mm of rainfall and possibly the wettest May in Wangaratta since 1988 (when 183.6mm fell).

"June and July will continue with above average rainfall while August will be slightly drier than average.
"Above average rainfall will return in September, continuing through October.

"November will be drier than usual and December will have close to average rainfall."

Mr Nelson said monthly mean maximum temperatures are expected to be above normal the first six months, followed by a slightly below normal trend, although December is to be slightly warmer than normal.

"The highest temperatures for Wangaratta are anticipated to happen mid February and the first week of March," he said.

"The following year, 2011 is expected to be one of the wettest ever in Wangaratta, with the annual rainfall total exceeding 1000mm for the first time since 1974.

"The wettest ever year from an old rainfall chart I have was 1275mm in 1870.

"The first four months of 2011 are expected to be extremely wet and likewise for the last six months, except for November, with much major flooding anticipated.

"This year is the start of a wet period which may last up till 2019, and if this does happen it will be the end of a slight warming trend of about half a degree which began in 1997."

http://www.nenews.com.au/Stories/chStory06.htm
Posted by: Canberra's Weather

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 05/01/2010 14:07

Originally Posted By: Ben Sandilands
Oh dear, back from a pseudo-holiday, and it is hot in summer in the southern hemisphere and cold in winter in the northern hemisphere.

But worst of all, ABC News has this minute or so reported that the 'decade just ended' has been the warmest on record in Australia.

Which decade? The first decade of the 21st century doesn't end until midnight on 31 December, at the end of this year. Blair....please put a rocket up whomever committed this atrocity with the calandar at BoM and bring back some notion of accuracy in reporting.
Which decade??? What do you mean "which decade"????

GRRR Who the hell cares what decade and how you want to argue about whether there was a year zero or not. WHO CARES???????

Every time I hear someone try to argue 2010 is part of the 2000s or 1990 is part of the 1980s, I want to strangle them!!!!!!

We are now in the 2010s and THAT IS THAT!!!!!!!!!!!

End of my 2 cents worth
Posted by: petethemoskeet

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 05/01/2010 14:25

Chill CW,must be that non existent heat that's getting to you
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 05/01/2010 15:00

Aw gee guys. We get upset over a teensy wheensy 0.01 degrees rounding up by someone tracking the temperatures in Lower Wombat Poo, and its OK for BoM to fudge a whole year.
Posted by: Canberra's Weather

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 05/01/2010 15:31

Anyway, welcome to the New Decade, the 2010s. Happy New Decade!!!

Unfortunately, the last decade has been found to be the hottest on record, and each decade before that has been hotter. A clear case of climate change (in Australia anyway), but the BOM doesn't say what's causing the said climate change. It is debatable whether it is in fact on a global scale because look at the snowstorms in the UK, Europe AND the US!
Posted by: Flying Binghi (2)

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 07/01/2010 18:59

Hmmm...them ice age alarmists back in the seventies did say they expected regional hot spots in temperate areas due to blocking highs......
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 08/01/2010 08:28

Europe braces for worst of its big chill
Northern Europe is bracing for what is expected to be the coldest day yet of the big freeze affecting the region.
The average weather in Britain recently has been only 2 degrees warmer than the North Pole.

http://www.weatherzone.com.au/news/europe-braces-for-worst-of-its-big-chill/13529
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 11/01/2010 08:53

The cracks are really starting to appear in the MSM's paranoid support of the global warming "consensus"

UK's Mail on Line; [ DailyMail ] The mini ice age starts here

And an interesting excerpt from that article.

"According to the US National Snow and Ice Data Centre in Colorado, Arctic summer sea ice has increased by 409,000 square miles, or 26 per cent, since 2007 – and even the most committed global warming activists do not [ cannot ? ] dispute this".

Reality is slowing setting in and I strongly suspect that Climategate has a great deal to do with this increasing change in attitudes.
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 11/01/2010 15:24

It takes only a week or so of not so extreme cold [ by Canadian and Russian standards ] for the fun to start!

And I sincerely hope not an indication of what may lay ahead for those who live in the colder climates in the years to come.

Food costs to soar as big freeze deepens
Posted by: andyfish67

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 11/01/2010 16:55

well being that the world is grossly over populated, given that Australia is over populated.......mother nature might be trying to tell us that its time to sort it all out and reset the world to a BETTER LEVEL OF INHABITANCE.
Posted by: bruski

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 12/01/2010 09:09

Watch out the "mini ice-age"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1242011/DAVID-ROSE-The-mini-ice-age-starts-here.html
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 12/01/2010 13:51

I've posted an item on the cold northern/hot southern weather in Crikey today pointing out that references to the recently past deep solar minimum are now PC.

The item is behind a firewall so I will paste an extract below.

In today's edition another story exposes Lord Monkton's inaccurate CV. I am not linking to that, but I hope he will explain more about his claimed role in the use of germ warfare against the Argentines in the Falkland War and also how he discovered a cure for HIV, which make him a much more complex figure than I had previously believed to be the case.

Weather extremes equal the sun of their parts ... or do they?
Ben Sandilands writes:
CLIMATE CHANGE, WEATHER IMPACTS

A frozen northern world and new heat records in the southern hemisphere are suddenly making the impact of a deep solar minimum on the world’s weather a politically correct topic.

Yet a year ago I was attacked in Crikey by global warming experts for daring to suggest, in Crikey, that something odd was happening on the sun.

It should emphasised, science has not yet linked the big freeze to the "quietest sun" since 1913 but the historical coincidences between supposedly insignificant deep solar minimums and cold weather are under review and references to them as being factors in very cold winters are appearing in places where they were previously dismissed out of hand.

The big freeze across Europe and parts of North America has energised the climate-change deniers just as the fierce dry heatwaves of this summer have encouraged global warming warriors to attack opponents of the government’s ETS, even though it was useless and dishonest in addressing what is a crisis in fossil carbon pollution of the atmosphere.

The issue for serious climate science now includes possible linkages between the appearance of an Arctic oscillation that no one predicted but that drove frigid air across Europe and much of middle and eastern North America, and the solar lull that has just ended.

As explained in this Clarifier, the sun blind-sided the situation by extending its normal 11-year cycle of activity to 13 years, reaching its nadir in old cycle sunspot activity in the second half of last year instead of mid-2007 as expected.

Not since the even deeper solar minimums of 1901 and 1913 had the sun been so quiet. And between or near them, which was the first time since the Dalton Minimum of 1890-1830 that two or more such notable minimums occurred in sequence, the weather in Australia, Europe and North America produced some very harsh winters and very balmy summers.

These events included the Niagara Falls freezing solid upstream, downstream and in situ, and several exceptional snow outbreaks in the eastern states of Australia and South Australia.

But there was no glacial response. The temperate glaciers of New Zealand and Europe continued to gradually down waste. The summers offset the severity of the winters. And the inexorable rise of CO2 concentrations in the atmosphere, which can be traced to the pre-industrial embrace of forest clearing, charcoal making and cement production, continued without variability, rising from 296 ppm in the Law Dome ice cores in 1901 to more than 300 ppm in 1913.

This solar minimum, which was recently ended by strongly rising numbers of new cycle sunspots, coincides with about 390 ppm of CO2 attributed to the inability of the natural carbon dioxide exchange cycles to cope with the outpourings from fossil fuel consumption, as well as synthetic halons never before seen in the atmosphere.

By April last year the GISS was acknowledging that something was going on with the sun, but also that it was of no comfort to climate-change deniers either.

It was time, according to GISS director James Hansen, to seriously study a solar phenomenon (or lack of it), that closely tracked the prolonged cool periods of the Little Ice Age, using tools in space and on earth never available to the astronomers of the Elizabethan Age or the latter Serenissima.

Will the deep solar minimum of 2009 be followed by another, like that of 1913 after 1901, or will the solar cycle now on the upswing revert to normal, and reverse or erase whatever respite the last minimum was contributing to an overheated world.

That is a very alarming question for science and humanity to consider, and as solar physicists failed to predict the behaviour of the sun in the last cycle, no one is offering any answers with confidence just yet.


There are hyperlinks that support references in the above copy.


Posted by: Flying Binghi (2)

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 12/01/2010 17:19

Quote:
...an overheated world


Hmmm, ...more like overheated prose.
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 13/01/2010 20:36

How the Texas Textbook Censors Got Onto Climate Change

Joe Romm has an important post about the folks down in Texas who are constantly trying to bring the textbooks into line with ideology. This is something we usually think of as affecting the evolution issue, but no–climate change is also a topic that is being watched closely by the watchers of educational content.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/inters...climate-change/
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 13/01/2010 21:34

No such thing as cool air or ice fridge in 1930s

ST Catherine’s Hostel resident, Harry Bradley, remembers a time when heatwaves were a little tougher to endure than the one Wangaratta has experienced over the past four days.

Born in 1920, Harry spent much of his life without access to things like air conditioners or refrigerators, so keeping cool was a challenge.

"We just used to put up with the heat, or try and find a shady spot," he recalled yesterday.

"I don’t remember doing anything too different, except lying on the bare boards of the verandah."

Fellow resident, Ern Wickham, 97, also remembers toughing it out each summer.

"A lot of the clothes we used to wear were quite hot and uncomfortable," he said.

"At school we used to wear what we called apple catchers, which were knickerbockers, and they were quite warm.

"I used to live in Hawthorn, and back then the Yarra was quite a nice stream.

"So after school we would make straight for the river and go for a swim."

Both men also remember the Black Friday fires of 1939.

Harry said the preceeding heatwave was one of the wost he can remember.

"In 1938 we only had 12 inches of rain, which was well below the average of 25 inches," he said.

"The heat really started in October, and we had very little rain, and warm weather right through November, December and January.

"It got as high as 117 Fahrenheit(47.2C) on Black Friday, and a gale was blowing from the north west all day which fanned a lot of the bushfires from Ballarat through to Sydney.

"But after that day the heatwave had peaked and the days started to get cooler and we had a lot of rainfall."

http://www.nenews.com.au/stories/chStory04n.htm
Posted by: Gabby

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 13/01/2010 21:58

Some food for thought. Note the year this was written.
SAID HANRAHAN


The cry of: ‘We’ll all be ruined..” still raises a smile to anyone who is familiar with this poem, especially those who live in the weather-reliant bush.

"We’ll all be rooned," said Hanrahan In accents most forlorn
Outside the church ere Mass began One frosty Sunday morn.
The congregation stood about, Coat-collars to the ears,
And talked of stock and crops and drought As it had done for years.
"It’s lookin’ crook," said Daniel Croke; "Bedad, it’s cruke, me lad
For never since the banks went broke Has seasons been so bad."
"It’s dry, all right," said young O’Neil, With which astute remark
He squatted down upon his heel And chewed a piece of bark.
And so around the chorus ran "It’s keepin’ dry, no doubt."
"We’ll all be rooned," said Hanrahan,"Before the year is out.
"The crops are done; ye’ll have your work To save one bag of grain;
From here way out to Back-O’-Bourke They’re singin’ out for rain.
"They’re singin’ out for rain," he said, "And all the tanks are dry."
The congregation scratched its head, And gazed around the sky.
"There won’t be grass, in any case ,Enough to feed an ass;
There’s not a blade on Casey’s place As I came down to Mass."
"If rain don’t come this month," said Dan, And cleared his throat to speak –
"We’ll all be rooned," said Hanrahan, "If rain don’t come this week."
A heavy silence seemed to steal On all at this remark;
And each man squatted on his heel, And chewed a piece of bark.
"We want an inch of rain, we do, "O’Neil observed at last;
But Croke "maintained" we wanted two To put the danger past.
"If we don’t get three inches, man, Or four to break this drought,
We’ll all be rooned," said Hanrahan, "Before the year is out."
In God’s good time down came the rain; And all the afternoon
On iron roof and window-pane It drummed a homely tune.
And through the night it pattered still, And lightsome, gladsome elves
On dripping spout and window-sill Kept talking to themselves.
It pelted, pelted all day long, A-singing at its work,
Till every heart took up the song Way out to Back-O’-Bourke.
And every creek a banker ran, And dams filled overtop;
"We’ll all be rooned," said Hanrahan, "If this rain doesn’t stop."
And stop it did, in God’s good time: And spring came in to fold
A mantle o’er the hills sublime Of green and pink and gold.
And days went by on dancing feet, With harvest-hopes immense,
And laughing eyes beheld the wheat Nid-nodding o’er the fence.
And, oh, the smiles on every face As happy lad and lass
Through grass knee-deep on Casey’s place Went riding down to Mass.
While round the church in clothes genteel Discoursed the men of mark,
And each man squatted on his heel, And chewed his piece of bark.
"There’ll be bush-fires for sure, me man, There will, without a doubt;
We’ll all be rooned," said Hanrahan, "Before the year is out."
JOHN O’BRIEN 1921

Posted by: Flying Binghi (2)

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 14/01/2010 02:21

A breakthrough in “climate change” science shows the earth is warming even though temperatures world-wide are plummeting. It’s a butane world: warming without warming.

The earth may not tell a lie, but agenda-driven, power-hungry alarmists always will


http://www.reviewmessenger.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3967:its-a-butane-world-after-all-harsh-winter--global-warming&catid=19:guest-opinion
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 16/01/2010 09:42

"The Editor

The Rockhampton Morning Bulletin.

I have sat by for a number of years frustrated at the rubbish being put forth about carbon dioxide emissions, thermal coal fired power stations and renewable energy and the ridiculous Emissions Trading Scheme.

Frustration at the lies told (particularly during the election) about global pollution. Using Power Station cooling towers for an example. The condensation coming from those cooling towers is as pure as that that comes out of any kettle.

Frustration about the so called incorrectly named man made 'carbon emissions' which of course is Carbon Dioxide emissions and what it is supposedly doing to our planet.

Frustration about the lies told about renewable energy and the deliberate distortion of renewable energy and its ability to replace fossil fuel energy generation. And frustration at the ridiculous carbon credit programme which is beyond comprehension.

And further frustration at some members of the public who have not got a clue about thermal Power Stations or Renewable Energy. Quoting ridiculous figures about something they clearly have little or no knowledge of.

First coal fired power stations do NOT send 60 to 70% of the energy up the chimney. The boilers of modern power station are 96% efficient and the exhaust heat is captured by the economisers and reheaters and heat the air and water before entering the boilers.

The very slight amount exiting the stack is moist as in condensation and CO2. There is virtually no fly ash because this is removed by the precipitators or bagging plant that are 99.98% efficient. The 4% lost is heat through boiler wall convection.

Coal fired Power Stations are highly efficient with very little heat loss and can generate massive amount of energy for our needs. They can generate power at efficiency of less than 10,000 b.t.u. per kilowatt and cost wise that is very low.

The percentage cost of mining and freight is very low. The total cost of fuel is 8% of total generation cost and does NOT constitute a major production cost.

As for being laughed out of the country, China is building multitudes of coal fired power stations because they are the most efficient for bulk power generation.

We have, like, the USA, coal fired power stations because we HAVE the raw materials and are VERY fortunate to have them. Believe me no one is laughing at Australia - exactly the reverse, they are very envious of our raw materials and independence.

The major percentage of power in Europe and U.K. is nuclear because they don't have the coal supply for the future.

Yes it would be very nice to have clean, quiet, cheap energy in bulk supply. Everyone agrees that it would be ideal. You don't have to be a genius to work that out. But there is only one problem---It doesn't exist.

Yes - there are wind and solar generators being built all over the world but they only add a small amount to the overall power demand.

The maximum size wind generator is 3 Megawatts, which can rarely be attained on a continuous basis because it requires substantial forces of wind. And for the same reason only generate when there is sufficient wind to drive them. This of course depends where they are located but usually they only run for 45% -65% of the time, mostly well below maximum capacity. They cannot be relied for a 'base load' because they are too variable. And they certainly could not be used for load control.

The peak load demand for electricity in Australia is approximately 50,000 Megawatts and only small part of this comes from the Snowy Hydro Electric System (The ultimate power Generation) because it is only available when water is there from snow melt or rain. And yes they can pump it back but it cost to do that. (Long Story).

Tasmania is very fortunate in that they have mostly hydro electric generation because of their high amounts of snow and rainfall. They also have wind generators (located in the roaring forties) but that is only a small amount of total power generated.

Based on a average generating output of 1.5 megawatts (of unreliable power) you would require over 33,300 wind generators.

As for solar power generation much research has been done over the decades and there are two types. Solar thermal generation and Solar Electric generation but in each case they cannot generate large amounts of electricity.

Any clean, cheap energy is obviously welcomed but they would NEVER have the capability of replacing Thermal power generation. So get your heads out of the clouds, do some basic mathematics and look at the facts not going off with the fairies (or some would say the extreme greenies.)

We are all greenies in one form or another and care very much about our planet. The difference is most of us are realistic. Not in some idyllic utopia where everything can be made perfect by standing around holding a banner and being a general pain in the backside.

Here are some facts that will show how ridiculous this financial madness the government is following. Do the simple maths and see for yourselves.

According to the 'believers' the CO2 in air has risen from .034% to .038% in air over the last 50 years.

To put the percentage of Carbon Dioxide in air in a clearer perspective;

If you had a room 12 ft x 12 ft x 7 ft or 3.7 mtrs x 3.7 mtrs x 2.1 mtrs, the area carbon dioxide would occupy in that room would be .25m x .25m x .17m or the size of a large packet of cereal.

Australia emits 1 percent of the world's total carbon Dioxide and the government wants to reduce this by twenty percent or reduce emissions by .2 percent of the world's total CO2 emissions.

What effect will this have on existing CO2 levels?

By their own figures they state the CO2 in air has risen from .034% to .038% in 50 years.

Assuming this is correct, the world CO2 has increased in 50 years by .004 percent.

Per year that is .004 divided by 50 = .00008 percent. (Getting confusing -but stay with me).

Of that because we only contribute 1% our emissions would cause CO2 to rise .00008 divided by 100 = .0000008 percent.

Of that 1%, we supposedly emit, the governments wants to reduce it by 20% which is 1/5th of .0000008 = .00000016 percent effect per year they would have on the world CO2 emissions based on their own figures.

That would equate to a area in the same room, as the size of a small pin head.

For that they have gone crazy with the ridiculous trading schemes, Solar and roofing installations, Clean coal technology. Renewable energy, etc, etc.

How ridiculous it that.

The cost to the general public and industry will be enormous. Cripple and even closing some smaller business.

T.L. Cardwell

To the Editor I thought I should clarify. I spent 25 years in the Electricity Commission of NSW working, commissioning and operating the various power units. My last was the 4 X 350 MW Munmorah Power Station near Newcastle. I would be pleased to supply you any information you may require."
Posted by: Flying Binghi (2)

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 16/01/2010 13:57

...And now, to counter BD, we have some words from Danny Glover....

"When we see what we did at the climate summit in Copenhagen, this is the response, this is what happens, you know what I'm sayin'? What happened in Haiti could happen to anywhere in the Caribbean because all these island nations are in peril because of global warming," Glover said. "When we see what we did at the climate summit in Copenhagen, this is the response, this is what happens, you know what I'm sayin'?"

http://www.clevelandleader.com/node/12625





.
Posted by: Jobe

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 16/01/2010 15:04

Bedevere: And that my lord, is how we know the Earth to be banana-shaped.

Arthur: This new learning amazes me, Sir Bedevere. Explain again how sheep's bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes.


Sometimes only Monty Python can explain certain things.
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 18/01/2010 18:51

THE NEW CLIMATE CHANGE SCANDAL

FRESH doubts were cast over controversial global warming theories yesterday after a major climate change argument was discredited.

The International Panel on Climate Change was forced to admit its key claim that Himalayan glaciers would melt by 2035 was lifted from a 1999 magazine article. The report was based on an interview with a little-known Indian scientist who has since said his views were “speculation” and not backed up by research.

It was also revealed that the IPCC’s controversial chairman, Dr Rajendra Pachauri, described as “the world’s top climate scientist”, is a former railway engineer with a PhD in economics and no formal climate science qualifications.

Dr Pachauri was yesterday accused of a conflict of interest after it emerged he has a network of business interests that attract millions of pounds in funding thanks to IPCC policies. One of them, The Energy Research Institute, has a London office and is set to receive up to £10million from British taxpayers over the next five years in the form of grants from the Department for International Development.

Dr Pachauri denies any conflict of interest arising from his various roles.

Yesterday, critics accused the IPCC of boosting the man-made global warming theory to protect a multi-million pound industry.


http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/152422/The-new-climate-change-scandal
Posted by: SBT

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 18/01/2010 20:00

About time Mr KRudd et al took a big step backwards and started distancing themselves from the GW farce before the become the laughing stock of history, oops too late. Thank you all.
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 18/01/2010 22:02

Lawrence Solomon: BBC drops top IPCC source for climate change data

The British Broadcasting Corporation has put its weather forecasting contract out to tender – the first time since its radio broadcasts began in 1923 – after taking heat from the public for a string of embarrassingly inaccurate long-range weather forecasts. The UK Met Office, the government-owned meteorological department that has had the BBC contract for almost 90 years, is a partner with the Climatic Research Unit at East Anglia University of Climategate fame. CRU and the UK Met Office jointly provide the climate change data that the UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change relies on.
The BBC’s decision comes amid one of the fiercest winters in decades that has left the country unprepared for the snow-related chaos it has seen. In August, the Met Office had forecast a mild winter. Last summer, the BBC had again been embarrassed: Thanks to the forecasts it had received from the UK Met, the BBC had warned its audience of an "odds-on barbecue summer" that instead was cool and rainy. In both cases, the BBC has faced outrage from a public that had been misled by the information the BBBC had provided it.

Many blame the UK Met Office’s abysmal forecasts record on a climate change bias. The BBC’s own climate correspondent, Paul Hudson, who for a decade had been a UK Met forecaster, believes the UK Met’s problem could stem from flawed computer models at its Hadley Centre, which provides data to the IPCC.

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs...hange-data.aspx
Posted by: BOM99

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 18/01/2010 23:19

Exclusive: 2009 Hottest Year on Record in Southern Hemisphere

By Eli Kintisch

/Science/NOW Daily News
13 January 2010

The United States may be experiencing one of the coldest winters
in
decades, but things continue to heat up in the Southern Hemisphere.
/Science/ has obtained exclusive data from NASA that indicates that 2009
was the hottest year on record south of the Equator. The find adds to
multiple lines of evidence showing that the 2000s were the warmest
decade in the modern instrumental record.

Southern Hemisphere temperatures can serve as a trailing indicator of
global warming, says NASA mathematician Reto Ruedy of the Goddard
Institute for Space Studies in New York City, given that that part of
the globe is mostly water, which warms more slowly and with less
variability than land. Ruedy says 2009 temperatures in the Southern
Hemisphere were 0.49°C warmer than the period between 1951 and 1980,
with an error of +/- 0.05°C.

That makes 2009 the warmest year on record in that hemisphere. That's
significant because the second-warmest year, 1998, saw the most severe
recorded instance in the 20th century of El Niño, a cyclic warming event
in the tropical Pacific. During El Niño events, heat is redistributed
from deep water to the surface, which raises ocean temperatures and has
widespread climatic effects. But last year was an El Niño year of medium
strength, which Ruedy says might mean that the warmer temperatures also
show global, long-term warming as well as the regional trend.

The data come a month after announcements by the National Oceanic and
Atmospheric Administration

(NOAA) and by the World Meterological Organization

that the decade of the 2000s was warmer than the 1990s. (NOAA estimates
that the decade was 0.54°C warmer than the 20th century average. The
1990s, by comparison, was 0.36°C warmer by their measure.)

Meanwhile, NOAA is expected to announce possible record highs in the
tropics when it releases its final report on 2009 temperatures on
Friday. "This is one of the coldest winters we've experienced in a while
up here in the northern latitudes," says Derek Arndt of NOAA's National
Climatic Data Center in Asheville, North Carolina. "But we're piling up
a lot of heat in the tropics."
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 18/01/2010 23:29

Ah magnificent warmth. I've had the best vegie garden I have ever planted this year, and that's with less humidity than other years. No food shortage at my house. Stick the cold up ya northern hemisphere I say... Giggle
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 19/01/2010 01:58

Lubos Motl, the Czech physicist, has a look at this snow effect on the satellite based global temps in his blog "The Reference Frame".
[ which also deals with some mind bending physics, at least for this layman, when you start nosing around in other parts of his blog! ]
Lubos makes a very interesting connection between the latent heat of snow, ice and water, the current global and future temps in a couple of months time and the amount of snow cover in the NH.
He also makes it clear that his thoughts here are far from definitive but are well worth looking at.
Quote:
That's a substantial warming. Once again, if snow is created at 0 °C, its water molecules are losing energy (just like if they're cooling) which means that the environment must be gaining this energy (and it must therefore be warming up).

So with the snow totals above - and I don't claim that they were obtained too rigorously - the atmosphere would warm up by nearly 0.2 °C. It should be obvious but let me just mention that the existence of snow that is "stuck" at 0 °C is enough to cool the environment around. So when it melts, it will cool the atmosphere back, by those 0.2 °C.


And the NOAA GISS and the NCDC which supposedly is the repository for the global surface station data are in nice and deep with increasing evidence from a number of US sources using FOI info that they, like CRU, have been heavily involved in seriously and very selectively massaging the number of stations and the data to ensure the global warming advocacy views of Tom Karl, head of the NCDC and a CRU team member from the USA end are the views that are promulgated to the public.
The USA surface station data and analysis and the outfits involved are starting to stink somewhat as bad as CRU.
Posted by: mobihci

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 19/01/2010 02:16

"Southern Hemisphere temperatures can serve as a trailing indicator of
global warming, says NASA mathematician Reto Ruedy of the Goddard
Institute for Space Studies in New York City, given that that part of
the globe is mostly water, which warms more slowly and with less
variability than land. Ruedy says 2009 temperatures in the Southern
Hemisphere were 0.49°C warmer than the period between 1951 and 1980,
with an error of +/- 0.05°C."

so, let me get this straight, they are saying that the last 10 years of no GLOBAL temperature rise has been going on while the southern hemisphere has been warming? yea gods! imagine whats going to happen when the trailing effect of the southern hemisphere starts to show the cooling of the north!

OR are they saying that the last 50 years or so of warming has not been going on in the southern hemisphere and the oceans are only now catching up? bom say no.

these guys really are in a spin, its anything goes time. this is when people who have no interest in the issue start to see their BS light blinking. next we see media backlash.
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 19/01/2010 09:45

Maybe we are just starting to see a small part of that coming media backlash.
"The Australian" which has printed some small skeptic orientated articles in the past but without much enthusiasm has really played up in a big way as in Monday's front page headlines, the IPCC's straight out fraudulent, lying debacle about the Himalayan glaciers melting by 2035.
Front page headlines on Monday's edition, "UN's blunder on glaciers exposed" and again rather astonishingly, a further very comprehensive and large expose in Tuesday's edition ie; "Climate Science on thin ice"

Pachauri, the head of the IPCC is also getting a lot of some seriously bad publicity in a number of papers including some scathing comments in the Indian papers about his huge vested interests in companies that will benefit very, very substantially from the immense amount of tax payer's money that governments are preparing to throw at this whole global warming scam.

Perhaps the wheel is turning and some of the doubts that some parts of the MSM have had about the ridiculous and way out there claims that the alarmists have been spouting are now starting to create a significant backlash from those in the media who the alarmists thought they had all sown up and firmly in their camp.
Posted by: Jobe

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 19/01/2010 16:36

Can we make it clear that the IPCC is the Intergovernmental Panel not the International Panel, please? Politicians are better at political science.
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 19/01/2010 19:41

There is an interesting discussion going on about this at Crikey but it is likely behind the pay wall. However here is the text of that item I published there today, with a photo of people in kayaks on the lake that is replacing the Mueller glacier.

(article)

Not far from here, in New Zealand, the lies and counter-lies from the IPCC and global warming denialists about the world’s fast disappearing glaciers get their moment of truth.

The three longest piedmont glaciers in the southern alps, the Tasman, the Mueller and the Hooker, are disappearing at a speed unimaginable to this former alpine climber and my friends from that carefree and reckless past.

We crossed ice 400 metres thick near places where sightseeing boats now ply the vast lake that has replaced most of the lower Tasman Glacier.

Kids wearing board shorts, sunnies and face paint are windsurfing across another lake that is now replacing the lower Mueller Glacier, also close to the Mt Cook tourist village.

In the 60s, when the late bushwalker and early alpine climber Dorothy Butler took foolish youths to NZ Alpine Club skills courses, so we’d be able to get out of crevasses, self-arrest, and do all the other things that might stop callow Aussie kids dying like flies on their mountains, it was…so different.

These lakes rapidly appeared out of no-where, starting with huge crater like sink holes in crumbling moraine covered black ice in 1978-79.

What was ice, massive, rock hard sheets of slowing moving ice, became vast reaches of shingle and streams and lakes. What became tussocks became the flowers of the plains, colonised each summer with specks of gentian like blossoms. You can find seedlings that will grow into the first trees in places last covered by woods in the previous interglacial, maybe 120,000 to 130,000 years ago.

Why the IPCC sees a need to distort the tale the glaciers already tell in abundance (and with immense beauty) about global warming is the question. Not just about glaciers, but about temperatures, and inferred warming that ‘eliminates’ pesky ground station readings that show cooling, and outrageous scare tactic crap about decametre rises in sea levels within 20 years, 50 years or whatever number of years drives headlines and hysteria.

This career driven, social agenda driven scaremongering frenzy sticks in the throats of some of my friends in earth sciences here and abroad, and hey, back then, I climbed with a few them in NZ, in France, and America. In our life times, the ice has disappeared and transformed some of those places beyond recognition.

The complaint is about the pressure to frame everything in earth sciences in terms of a catastrophic warming dogma. This involves a contempt for the research, which is difficult and complex and in places contradictory, yet also points inescapably to fossil carbon induced warming as real and serious.

Then the denialists buzz around the stink with their own lies. One of the most persist is that most of the world’s glaciers are actually advancing. For sure. Nothing like confusing advance for ‘surge’ which is what happens when a heavy snow season sends a ‘ripple’ of ice downstream, as happens on the NZ west coast glaciers like the Fox and Franz.

The large tributary ice streams that feed down into the Tasman, like the Hochstetter Icefall from the grand plateau halfway up Cook, or the Ranfurly that drains the Minarets are thickening. The warmer temperatures up high actually mean more snowfall, and more glacial ice flow, but down low, on the main trunk of the Tasman, it means runaway melting, and a drastic retreat. Some of the Tasman ice feeders, like the Ball Glacier have almost completely vanished. In the 60s we used ropes and crampons to get from the Tasman to a scary place under the Caroline face on Mt Cook via the Ball Glacier. Now, the deeply crevassed glacier has vanished. Rivulets roar downslope there for all but a few months of the year and ravage metres of ice per day from the remaining middle Tasman ice.

These ‘temperate’ glaciers are the canary in the mine shaft of global warming because they remained stable just above or below freezing point. Now that the main glacial tongues are above freezing from surface to bottom they are rotten with water. They will melt completely into lakes or shingle plains within decades, until the next glacial epoch comes.

The process of glacial retreat here, and everywhere non-polar glaciers persist, fits the rising concentrations of CO2 in the air from the onset of pre industrial smelting and forest clearing in the clearest possible way.

It doesn’t need help from lies or distortions.

Take your children to New Zealand. Show them the places where the ice is being reclaimed by the flowers and trees and lakes, and pleasure boats. It is a rare moment in time to be able to witness what happened on such a huge scale at the end of the Pleistocene and the start of the Holocene, or ‘our time’.

May we use our time wisely, and truly.
Posted by: mobihci

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 20/01/2010 15:20

but what about the truth? have not most glaciers in the world that are in retreat been in retreat longer than industrialisation?

"The process of glacial retreat here, and everywhere non-polar glaciers persist, fits the rising concentrations of CO2 in the air from the onset of pre industrial smelting and forest clearing in the clearest possible way."

i know for a fact that that statement is false, the swiss alps for example has been in retreat for over 100 years, so what on earth has that got to do with co2?
Posted by: Flying Binghi (2)

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 21/01/2010 04:43

What caused the Tasmanian glaciers to disappear ?
Australians were in Tasmania when the last glacier went....





.
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 21/01/2010 07:44

mobihci,

The first consistent signs of glacial retreat in Europe were not recorded until the middle of the 19th century. There have been pauses and surges since then but no consistent advances of the terminal ice cliffs. The European evidence is detailed given the proximity of farming communities and towns to the tongues of ice that descended quite deeply into parts of alpine France, actually then the principality of Savoy. Lots of sketches made it into the journals of the day.

The evidence across North America, South America and even very high parts of Latin America is consistent with that of Europe, New Zealand and in modern times, West Papua. Exactly what was false about the statement you quote in relation to the Swiss Alps?

FB2,

The Tasmanian and mainland glaciers existed during the final and harshest part of the last ice age, from around 30,000-20,000 years ago. They were augmented by much more extensive periglacial snowfields, where the depth of hard ice was insufficient to trigger the dynamics of major glaciation. There is a display on a NPWS weather proof notice board on the track to Blue Lake that estimates an ice depth of around 300 feet there and at Club Lake. There is also indirect evidence that more extensive periglacial snow accumulations existed in parts of Tasmania during the Little Ice Age, and probably on the main range in the Snowies and isolated parts of Victoria and even for a while on the OT. The oral traditions of the Tasmanian Aboriginal peoples include what are believed to be references to ice bergs and they left ancient rock art in caves that must have been crucial to their shelter in parts of the state. Which at the time was connected by a land bridge to the mainland.
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 21/01/2010 08:32

What happened to that land bridge and others like it on the planet? Ice melted and sea's rose methinks, had to be CO2 I presume!!!
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 21/01/2010 08:45

Simmosturf,

You have posted the answer yourself before I believe. The natural cycles of glacial and interglacial have not been disputed here, nor the reasons associated with variations in the earth's orbit.

I don't mind some good humoured trolling but I have a few other things going on until late so I look forward to visiting then, if the wi-fi gods grant me a stable connection.
Posted by: Locke

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 21/01/2010 10:39

When someone uses the terms like "denialist" and "canary in the coal mine" I tend not to give there posts too much credence.

No-one is denying that many of the worlds glaciers have retreated over the past century or so but given we are exiting a cooler phase of the natural climate cycle what exactly would you expect to happen?

Try providing some solid proof that the CO2 man is putting into the atmosphere is the main contributing factor behind our current glacial retreat and I might consider the argument more worthy of consideration.

If glaciers started retreating in the 19th century its fairly hard for you to pin this on man-made CO2. The current glacial retreat appears to have commenced well before CO2 levels started rising alarmingly.
Posted by: mobihci

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 21/01/2010 11:47

from - http://glaciology.ethz.ch/messnetz/lengthvariation.html





Posted by: Mike Hauber

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 21/01/2010 12:58

Originally Posted By: Locke

If glaciers started retreating in the 19th century its fairly hard for you to pin this on man-made CO2. The current glacial retreat appears to have commenced well before CO2 levels started rising alarmingly.





Of course fossil fuel use prior to 1950 was much slower. Up to 1950 a warming sun contributed a lot of the warming. Since 1950 the sun has been steady to cooling, and Co2 emissions have accelerated

The fact that glaciers have been consistently retreating the last century shows that the GISS temperature rise is real and not a result of poor measurement practices.
Posted by: mobihci

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 21/01/2010 13:57

honestly, thats the sort of argument that creates sceptics.
Posted by: Mike Hauber

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 21/01/2010 14:33

Originally Posted By: mobihci
Honestly, that's the sort of argument that creates sceptics.


Why?
Posted by: mobihci

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 21/01/2010 16:06

well let me see, you are saying that before 1950 the earths temperature was stable, and after that time man made co2 causes the glacier to melt and nothing else. or is it that 'the warming sun' actually means something now and can be the CAUSE of the glacier melt from the start of recording in 1880s, but not enough to cause the extra warming now being caused by the rising co2?

honestly, you would have to completely ignore anything to do with the little ice age, the recovery from it or history in general. its just nonsense that only reinforces the view that anything goes when it comes to claims about c02.

the best response to glaciers recorded on the retreat in 1880s is to say, well yes it looks like there was a general warming going at that time that co2 does not explain, therefor i cannot claim that co2 has anything to do with glacier retreat. to say otherwise is just making general assuptions about unproven theories.

do you expect people to believe that coal burning in 1880 just all of a sudden caused the swiss glaciers to retreat? of course you would also have to explain how temperatures changed so quickly too, and not by some model guesswork, but by real figures unrelated to the sun (claimed to be a miniscule temperature driver that only changes climate over thousands of years) remember here you are trying to claim that man made co2 is driving the glacier retreat (what was claimed by that article before).
Posted by: Mike Hauber

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 21/01/2010 16:31

Originally Posted By: mobihci
well let me see, you are saying that before 1950 the earths temperature was stable,


No, temperatures before 1950 were rising, as was Co2 and Solar activity.

Originally Posted By: mobihci

and after that time man made co2 causes the glacier to melt and nothing else. ,


No, many things other than Co2 affect the climate. Climate scientists have always said so. It is dishonest or ignorant to assume otherwise, then find evidence of something other than Co2 affecting the climate and claiming that climate scientists have been proven wrong.

Originally Posted By: mobihci

or is it that 'the warming sun' actually means something now and can be the CAUSE of the glacier melt from the start of recording in 1880s, but not enough to cause the extra warming now being caused by the rising co2?


The sun while it was warming before 1950 contriubted to warming prior to 1950. Since 1950 the sun has not been warming and if anything is cooling.


Posted by: mobihci

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 21/01/2010 18:27

so, you have no problem with and defend a statement such as "The process of glacial retreat here, and everywhere non-polar glaciers persist, fits the rising concentrations of CO2 in the air from the onset of pre industrial smelting and forest clearing in the clearest possible way. " without stating anything about the true history?

its propaganda at its worst.

lets get something straight, it is up the climate models to prove their models correct, which they have not, not me to prove that the theory that drives them is wrong. its not MY problem that the models are wrong, it is up to the people who create the models to adjust their perceived reality until such time they get it right! this continual revision of error margins is just another thing driving scepticism.

so you admit that the temp was warming up to the 1950s and the sun had something to do with it. the strongest period of melt was in the 40s, so what does any of this have to do with co2 other than the tenuous link with incorrect climate models. in other word why would one PRESUME (not assume) that it is not a natural process?

this presumptuous, pretentious, arrogant form of writting/science/behaviour is exactly why scepticism will only grow and grow.
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 21/01/2010 21:37

Climate change experts say sorry
A Nobel Prize-winning panel of climate scientists who wrote the world's most authoritative report on global warming have apologised after five glaring errors were discovered in one paragraph.

The errors are in a 2007 report by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, a United Nations-affiliated body.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5hjukTxpZhKYpo7eMDY2_nDr6MjPw
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 21/01/2010 21:50

Some really good statements made in the comments section.

John Coleman's climate change conspiracy theory

A new NASA temperature analysis to be officially released this week shows that 2009 tied with 2007 for the second warmest year in the 130 years of global thermometer records. The analysis, which was distributed by top NASA climate scientist James Hansen and published on the realclimate.org Web site on Sunday, also shows that 2009 was the warmest year on record for the Southern Hemisphere.

In a separate analysis, the U.S. National Climatic Data Center (NCDC) found that 2009 tied with 2006 for the fifth warmest year on record. The two government centers use different data analysis methods, which accounts for the differences between the findings.

However, according to a new one-hour local TV special from San Diego, hosted by KUSI-TV's chief meteorologist John Coleman, both of the 2009 temperature summaries are fatally flawed. Coleman's show trumpets a new report that alleges that federal climate agencies have been manipulating climate data for years in order to show more significant warming than has actually been occurring.

"When you see a news report that the government has found that a certain month or season of the year was the warmest in history or that five of the warmest years on record were in the last decade, don't believe it. Those reports were based on manipulated data," Coleman states. "It hurts me to say this, but our nation's primary climate data agencies, part of our U.S. government, are lying to us."

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/capitalweathergang/2010/01/a_new_nasa_temperature_analysi.html
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 22/01/2010 07:52

mobihci and Locke,

The way this reporter chooses to write about climate change is to try and engage with the science and give those who distort it on the denialist and warmista extremes as much attention as the format allows. I'm not anyone's propagandist. I was recently attacked at a PR symposium for being a reporter 'nobody can work with'. Which means nobody can own. It was an honour to be so described.

Oh, and I liked the Tasman, the snows of New Guinea, and my home hills the way they were. And they're going or gone. This winter should be different, there should be a signal get through from the solar minimum, and that will be of some comfort if it comes, but we are like the people whose portraits and scenes from the Little Ice stare into this 'future' in the National Galley. We too are creatures of cooler times, compared to what is to come.
Posted by: Mike Hauber

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 22/01/2010 09:48

Originally Posted By: mobihci
so, you have no problem with and defend a statement such as "The process of glacial retreat here, and everywhere non-polar glaciers persist, fits the rising concentrations of CO2 in the air from the onset of pre industrial smelting and forest clearing in the clearest possible way. " without stating anything about the true history?



Strawman

Thats not what I said, and continously misrepresenting what I and climate scientists say about climate is either dishonest or ignorant.
Posted by: mobihci

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 22/01/2010 13:25

i agree that the misrepresentation of what climate scientist say about climate is both dishonest and ignorant. ie "The process of glacial retreat here, and everywhere non-polar glaciers persist, fits the rising concentrations of CO2 in the air from the onset of pre industrial smelting and forest clearing in the clearest possible way. " is not what climate scientist say about glacier retreat, it is propaganda.

what you say makes more sense, that glaciers have naturally retreated, but then you choose to add something that is just theory, so judging by the picture you posted, you too are implying that co2 has been the cause of glacier retreat. the mention of the suns influence is dwarfed by the implications of the picture, in fact they are contradictory.

is the picture dishonest? yes it is if it is refered to when making a claim about co2s influence on glacier retreat. just because wiki is dishonest in its presentation does not mean we have to be here. i would rather see truth in every aspect of climate, and this brings me back to the point you asked me about. sceptics are created when a story becomes muddled or contradictory such as saying the sun had an influence on the melt, then posting a picture of co2 release going back to 1850, by also not mentioning anywhere the previous temperature trends or where the 'starting' point/trend is.

to the general public, climate scientists have a lot of work to do to recover some semblance of credibility due to the way the political/media wing of the science has lied and deliberately misrepresented what was actually being said by the scientists. the longer the general attitude that it is ok to lie and use scare tactics such as that statement printed before and placing graphs such as the co2 level going back to the 1850s, the harder it will be to recover. the battle is already lost for the truth in the science, in fact it had no chance once the process become politicised via the IPCC, so I think if the political/media wing of the general public not to trend towards scepticism ABSOLUTE truth must be used in every statement and those that step outside that boundary are chastised. will it happen? no because of the arrogance of such people, believing they are above the truth and it is ok to mislead in the name of their truth.
Posted by: Mike Hauber

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 22/01/2010 15:29

So not mentioning the previous temperature trend is dishonest?

Here is a chart showing temperature, Co2 and solar activity over the entire period.



Temperature shows an overall upward over the entire period, just as glaciers have been overal retreating over the entire period. And with periods around mid century where the temperature rise and glacier retreat slow down/stop. Obviously the temperature rise is real and not an artifact of instrumental error.

And Co2 has been increasing over the entire period, but much faster later, than earlier.

Whereas Solar increases from 1900 to around 1960, matching temperature, but since has gone in the opposite direction to temperature.
Posted by: AndrewMurrell

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 22/01/2010 16:29

Not sure what star you have been measuring but it certainly insn't ours. The modern maximum as it is known has seen the sun at the highest activity in over 600 years. It started about 1945 and had been the consistantly active in its 11 year cycle till about 2007. Your sunspot graph is VERY interesting but not reallty a good representation of what has been happening. You completly missed the Peak activity that occoured in 2002-2003. One of the highest activity periods recorded. I would be tempted to say that the activity of the sun is responsable for the late 20th century warming, just like it was responsible for the little Ice Age. The Maunder Minimum was known and named as the cause of the little Ice Age well before anyone ever thought of Global Warming. Yet now that AGW is about we are being told it didnt happen or wasn't as sever as it was.
Posted by: mobihci

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 22/01/2010 17:08

exactly, as if the graph shows the full story, we have been through it all before, it deliberately ignores oceans and every other aspect of climate. its just another way to avoid telling the full truth. in any case the chart does not prove anything about co2, temperature, sunspots or their link to glacier melt. to say otherwise is just conjecture.

from this story here in the himalayan glaciers-

climate science on thin ice

"An Australian glacier expert, Cliff Ollier of the University of Western Australia, accuses the IPCC of being "deliberately alarmist" with its predictions about melting glaciers because he says the organisation has a vested interest in global warming. "Glaciers started to retreat in 1895 when there was no correlation to global warming," Ollier says. "Now we are seeing a general retreat on glaciers because we are coming out of an ice age, but there is nothing alarming about it. These retreats are not caused only by temperatures.""

that statement from Ollier is sensible, this is not-

""The process of glacial retreat here, and everywhere non-polar glaciers persist, fits the rising concentrations of CO2 in the air from the onset of pre industrial smelting and forest clearing in the clearest possible way. ""




Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 22/01/2010 18:11

mobihci,

You really come undone when you ignore that part of my story which supports Ollier's statement.

QUOTE: Why the IPCC sees a need to distort the tale the glaciers already tell in abundance (and with immense beauty) about global warming is the question. Not just about glaciers, but about temperatures, and inferred warming that ‘eliminates’ pesky ground station readings that show cooling, and outrageous scare tactic crap about decametre rises in sea levels within 20 years, 50 years or whatever number of years drives headlines and hysteria.

This career driven, social agenda driven scaremongering frenzy sticks in the throats of some of my friends in earth sciences here and abroad, and hey, back then, I climbed with a few them in NZ, in France, and America. In our life times, the ice has disappeared and transformed some of those places beyond recognition.

The complaint is about the pressure to frame everything in earth sciences in terms of a catastrophic warming dogma. This involves a contempt for the research, which is difficult and complex and in places contradictory, yet also points inescapably to fossil carbon induced warming as real and serious. UNQUOTE

I've been slamming the IPCC for this sort of obnoxious, and pointless behaviour for some time. Including here. Repeatedly. Is it necessary to ignore this to make a false debating point?

Mike's most recent post raises the really difficult issue for those of us who hate the idea that AGW is happening, but have to accept on the evidence that it is.

That issue is the relentless rise in CO2 levels. This shows no sign of large scale cyclical variation due to natural variations but just keeps coming, regardless of where we can plot warmer or cooler trends. And the statement I made concerning glacial retreat and rising levels of CO2 is valid. Unwelcome, but valid.

I look forward to your alternative explanation, and one that doesn't frame my own scribblings as being supportive of lies and distortions by the IPCC.
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 23/01/2010 07:43

Climate change: The controversy over 'Himalayan blunder'

The highly serious issue of climate change and global warming has taken a beating with vital research figures on climate change being distorted and 'falsified'. With contentions over important timelines -- like the melting of the Himalayas -- being disputed, scientific studies that contradict each other are losing credibility.

The Nobel Prize-winning Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) has now admitted its goof-up on the 'deadline' on the melting of the Himalayan glaciers.

The panel, headed by Rajendra K Pachauri, had claimed that the Himalayan glaciers could melt away by 2035, causing a lively furore . "The clear and well-established standards of evidence, required by the IPCC procedures, were not applied properly," said IPCC in a statement on its website, accepting the error.

Environment Minister Jairam Ramesh said such forecasts were alarmist and without scientific basis.

He also took a dig at the comments made by IPCC chairman R K Pachauri, who had dubbed the Union environment ministry's report, which stated that global warming is not the only reason for glaciers melting, as 'voodoo science'.

Pachauri now faces an embarrassing situation.

http://business.rediff.com/slide-show/20...yan-blunder.htm
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 23/01/2010 07:46

IPCC apologises for glacier melting error

The United Nations' main climate change body has admitted a claim that Himalayan glaciers could melt away by 2035 was unfounded.

The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) said on Wednesday the prediction, made in a 2007 report, was "poorly substantiated" and unrealistic.

In a statement released by the UN body, climate scientists said in drafting the claims over the rate of glacier recession and date for their disappearance the "clear and well-established standards of evidence, required by the IPCC procedures, were not applied properly".

It adds: "The chair, vice-chairs, and co-chairs of the IPCC regret the poor application of well-established IPCC procedures in this instance."

It emerged last week the prediction that the Himalayan glaciers could disappear by 2035 was based on a media interview with an Indian glaciologist in 1999 and not consensus among climate change experts.

The admission is sure to encourage climate change cynics especially in light of the scandal involving hacked emails last year which threatened to derail the Copenhagen talks.

Messages sent from scientists at the University of East Anglia allegedly involved discussions of altering certain figures relating to the planet's warming.

http://www.inthenews.co.uk/news/environment/ipcc-apologises-for-glacier-melting-error-$1354803.htm
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 23/01/2010 09:35

Simmosturf,

The media diligence that caught this misrepresentation overseas is also welcomed by those researchers who have no doubts about what they have found, yet despise this adoption of typical lying corporate message spinning and its application to their work.

The work they do is important. But it always needs to be examined and considered carefully and with an open mind, not sloganised by those who want to exploit it for other purposes.
Posted by: mobihci

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 23/01/2010 13:45

ben, we are not children here. your story is give an inch and take a mile, it is obvious.

we have also been through a number of alternative explanations for just about everything, none of which have been faulted here, which in reality points to the general failure of the agw theory.
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 23/01/2010 14:07

mobihci,

It's not obvious. You either failed to read the story in full or chose to misrepresent it.

And remind me again, what is the alternative explanation for the remorseless and non cyclical rise in atmospheric carbon dioxide concentrations.
Posted by: AndrewMurrell

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 23/01/2010 17:21

Ben
You fail to even think that AGW may not be true. The test of a good theory is its ability to stand up to experiment. Many times the AGW theory meets a challenge it seems to fail. ANY OTHER theory would be scrapped and a new alternate theory would be suggested to fit the observations. AGW seems to change the ground rules by either modification of the data or just plain ignoring the data.
Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Evolution, are all theories that have now passed the test of time by replacing theories that didnt quite match observation. Einstein didnt pick and choose his data to make his theory work. AGW does precisely that and dont say it hasn't because there have been numerous accounts in the press reciently where even the IPCC has had to apoligise for doing it.
If AGW was a TRUE working theory that did explain Late 20th Century warming correctly why does it need to exagerate and neglect data.
(sorry for spelling)
No single theory can account for the warming period but I do not believe that CO2 has any effect.
Think on this
This period in Earths history we have the rise of an intelligent animal called man. One of the most spectacular events to be seen is a total Solar Eclipse. The Earth/ Moon combination is about 4.5 billion years old. The eclipse occour as they do due the apparent size of the moon matching the apparent size of the Sun. Total Solar eclipses can only been seen NOW. During the age of the Dinosaurs there were no Total eclipses as we know them. In a very short period of time (astronomical) the Earth will NEVER have them again. The Moon is slowly moving away from the Earth and so eventually the Angular Size of the moon will NOT match the angular size of the sun. When that happens no more eclipse. It is pure coinsidence that man is around to see this wonderful event, some have even suggested that this is why man is curious.
Whats the point you may ask?
We see total eclipses by pure chance. nothing more. The correspondence of CO2 to the warming period is also coinsidence. Every warming event in earths past has had an increase of CO2 800 years after a warming event. the last Warming event was roughly 800 years ago. This data is from ice core samples found all over the planet and they agree quite nicely to the 800year lag.
All accepted science pre AGW.
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 23/01/2010 19:31

Andrew,

I'm a keen eclipse chaser. The total eclipse phenomenon did exist in the age of the Dinosaurs, no not my age, I mean real dinosaurs, and it is worth noting that the moon being much closer to the earth than now, certainly drew much higher tides as well as producing quite different eclipses than any seen today. The more rapid progression of the moon across the sky which tended to shorten totality was coincidentally neatly offset by its larger apparent size. The result was durations very similar in range to today, however they cast enormous shadow tracks, meaning that in rapid sequence,the inner and outer coronas disappeared behind and then reappeared from behind the enlarged lunar disc, and at mid eclipse, darkness was total, as there was no leakage of light from outside the eclipse track as happens in post Eocene skies. The shortest eclipse I observed was at Lyndhurst north of the Flinders Ranges just before sunset on 4 December 2002. I had not realised before how spectacular a brief eclipse of barely 18 seconds could be, because it was easy to see the moon's shadow flash up above the western horizon like a dark cone, and the range of colours in the sky and around the lunar disc was utterly astonishing in its range and the speed with which it changed. Instead of one or two diamond rings half the lunar horizon blazed into points of light, in effect shortening totality, and posing an enhanced risk of eye damage none of us present had anticipated. However we did a simulation of prehistoric eclipses with a similar near sunset geometry, and that 18 seconds would have been like being plunging into a dark tunnel at midday, and emerging almost instantaneously. Mankind has evolved too late to see the really impressive total eclipses.

But Lyndhurst 2002 was sensational. Soon after it ended the sun set as a thin golden crescent, and then as two curved pillars of light, like the jaws of a giant beast slipping below the horizon, until only two eyes, the tips of the 'fangs' hung over the sub solar point.

I believe the last total eclipse will not occur for several glacials. However one of the very last and already extremely rare south pole total eclipses happens in January in 2096 or 2099. I forget which. Its on the NASA eclipse site. From then on the range of total eclipse locations will noticeably retreat from the poles toward the tropics,producing hybrid annular/total tracks favouring the northern tropics for many millennia.

Anyhow, I disagree with coincidence as an explanation between consistent levels of CO2 accumulation and the current warming period and its cooler episodes too. Why? Because we can estimate the tonnage of liberated carbon from industry, and for your view to be correct, that carbon would have to go somewhere else than into and over the top of the natural carbon cycles. Exactly where do you believe the carbon release from industry is going, and what mechanism would cause it to 'vanish'? Is there not an obvious issue with the 800 year lag mechanism and the speed with which this carbon build up has accelerated post the spread of fossil carbon release?
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 23/01/2010 21:25

An eye-opening read, it seems that the "global warming seemingly fraudulent circus" just gets worse and worse the more folk look into it all!
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/01/22/american-thinker-on-cru-giss-and-climategate/#more-15521
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 23/01/2010 21:38



More Interesting stuff from Smokey same thread.
"Smokey (18:50:18) :

Look at the results of the NOAA’s “adjustments” of the raw temperature data: click [takes a few seconds to load]

This is a chart showing the reduction in the number of temperature stations: click. Most of the reduction was in rural stations – leaving the urban stations located on airport tarmacs, next to air conditioning exhausts, etc. Obviously this will skew the global temperature record higher than it really is.

And here we can see a graphic of the radical reduction in the number of temperature stations that compile the global temperature record: click

With $Trillions in higher taxes being demanded to “fight global warming,” an accurate temperature record is required. As we can see, NOAA “adjusts” the record upward by using very questionable methodology. An impartial investigation is necessary, with all sides of the debate fully involved."
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 23/01/2010 21:41

And from IceCap
Posted by: Vlasta

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 24/01/2010 02:04

Just to read the last posts its enough to conclude . That its true what J Coleman sez its all lies. I said it one week after the hacked emails . I just wonder who will be the first one to realise , that its imposible for those 1000's scientists to be that stupid that they wouldnt know what they are doing. They were just ordered to tell lies by government.
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 24/01/2010 07:51

UN climate change expert: there could be more errors in report

The Indian head of the UN climate change panel defended his position yesterday even as further errors were identified in the panel's assessment of Himalayan glaciers.

Dr Rajendra Pachauri dismissed calls for him to resign over the Inter-governmental Panel on Climate Change’s retraction of a prediction that Himalayan glaciers could disappear by 2035.

But he admitted that there may have been other errors in the same section of the report, and said that he was considering whether to take action against those responsible.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article6999051.ece
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 24/01/2010 07:58

Weather Channel founder continues attack on climate change theory

John Coleman is one of the most vocal sceptics of the theory that man is the driving force behind a warming climate. One of the founders of the Weather Channel and now a meteorologist with KUSI in San Diego, Coleman has said global warming was “the greatest scam in history.” Last week he took to the airwaves of his station in an hour long special titled “Global Warming: The Other Side.”

http://www.examiner.com/x-25061-Climate-Change-Examiner~y2010m1d22-Weather-Channel-founder-continues-attack-on-climate-change-theory
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 24/01/2010 10:20

Coleman is correct about scams in general. Give us an issue and the scams follow. Let me give you a related tip as to why Barnaby Joyce and Tony Abbott cut Lord Monckton dead, as mentioned in this item in a Sydney Morning Herald blog.

SMH: Joyce and Abbott..no Moncktoning about

Were Barnaby and Tony being 'precious' about this? No. They checked him out. On the public record in the UK in the CV attached to his announcement of his UKIP candidacy, Monckton claims to be “responsible for invention and development of a broad-spectrum cure for infectious diseases. Patents have now been filed. Patients have been cured of various infectious diseases, including Graves’ disease, multiple sclerosis, influenza, food poisoning, and HIV.”

Such claims about HIV and other diseases in Australia are illegal. Neither politician could risk sharing any platform with Monckton irrespective of their obvious support for his views on AGW. Monckton's other claims represent serious negative political capital in this country.
Posted by: mobihci

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 24/01/2010 12:28

1- monckton wont care

2- joyce and abbott will be seen to be conservative in opinion

3- all politicians play political games, and everydoby knows it.

4- joyce and abbott most likely personally believe and endorse what mockton says, but play it the way howard did. a most sensible way while the mainstream media are still in opposition. i doubt they have even heard of claims of inventions etc let alone care about it.
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 24/01/2010 13:48

mobihci,

But above all, they were mindful of the law. It is illegal to have falsely claimed to have cured people from HIV. It is not a libertarian dispute about the right to hold controversial opinions, but to have physically claimed medical cures. I have no doubt Linzden or Svensmark would ably defend your position in this debate, and they deserve respect too. Monckton however, has been torpedoed with his own fantasies in other areas.
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 24/01/2010 14:34

As much as you are trying to bad mouth Lord Monckton before his impending Aussie visit, I would rather listen to his open minded and well informed information than say, a scamming politician or a junk writing journo any day Ben!


Lord Monckton: Global Warming big scientific fad
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKrw6ih8Gto
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 24/01/2010 14:59

Simmosturf,

Losing it are we.
Posted by: Flying Binghi (2)

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 24/01/2010 15:35

Quote:
...claims represent serious negative political capital in this country


"By 2035 the IPCC will melt if it doesn't make people beleive in climate change..."


http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/01/23/highnoon-for-pachauri/











.
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 24/01/2010 16:41

FB2,

Actually that's funny. The IPCC deserves it. However, all claims merit scrutiny, and I have a hunch you will see a lot more care taken across the board by those who just copy press releases regardless of where they originate.
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 24/01/2010 16:52

Pardon me me Ben, losing what? The AGW, natural climate change denier crowd are the only ones that are losing. And your industry is the second biggest losers in the whole debate, except for the opened minded, rational few. But it won't be long before that changes when some journo jobs start to turnover . Giggle
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 24/01/2010 17:29

"Quote"
"In an interview with The Mail on Sunday, Dr Lal, the co-ordinating lead author of the report’s chapter on Asia, said: ‘It related to several countries in this region and their water sources. We thought that if we can highlight it, it will impact policy-makers and politicians and encourage them to take some concrete action."


"Quote"
"Dr Lal said: ‘We knew the WWF report with the 2035 date was “grey literature” [material not published in a peer-reviewed journal]. But it was never picked up by any of the authors in our working group, nor by any of the more than 500 external reviewers, by the governments to which it was sent, or by the final IPCC review editors."

Quote
"It was an accusation rebutted angrily by Dr Lal. ‘We as authors followed them to the letter,’ he said. ‘Had we received information that undermined the claim, we would have included it.’
However, an analysis of those 500-plus formal review comments, to be published tomorrow by the Global Warming Policy Foundation (GWPF), the new body founded by former Chancellor Nigel Lawson, suggests that when reviewers did raise issues that called the claim into question, Dr Lal and his colleagues simply ignored them.
For example, Hayley Fowler of Newcastle University, suggested that their draft did not mention that Himalayan glaciers in the Karakoram range are growing rapidly, citing a paper published in the influential journal Nature.
In their response, the IPCC authors said, bizarrely, that they were ‘unable to get hold of the suggested references’, but would ‘consider’ this in their final version. They failed to do so.
The Japanese government commented that the draft did not clarify what it meant by stating that the likelihood of the glaciers disappearing by 2035 was ‘very high’. ‘What is the confidence level?’ it asked.
The authors’ response said ‘appropriate revisions and editing made’. But the final version was identical to their draft.
Last week, Professor Georg Kaser, a glacier expert from Austria, who was lead author of a different chapter in the IPCC report, said when he became aware of the 2035 claim a few months before the report was published, he wrote to Dr Lal, urging him to withdraw it as patently untrue.
Dr Lal claimed he never received this letter. ‘He didn’t contact me or any of the other authors of the chapter,’ he said.
The damage to the IPCC’s reputation, already tarnished by last year’s ‘Warmergate’ leaked email scandal, is likely to be considerable.
Benny Peiser, the GWPF’s director, said the affair suggested the IPCC review process was ‘skewed by a bias towards alarmist assessments’.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...l#ixzz0dVc0qXqa
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 24/01/2010 18:07

Simmosturf,

We are having this friendly discussion because some reporters in the UK did their job.

They are, judging from BDs post, clearly continuing to ask some critical questions, and not letting the issue get brushed off. It's about time, and I think all sides of this discussion need more of this.
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 25/01/2010 07:43

But wait there is more!!! Good research & reporting from this newspaper online!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article7000063.ece

"THE United Nations climate science panel faces new controversy for wrongly linking global warming to an increase in the number and severity of natural disasters such as hurricanes and floods.

It based the claims on an unpublished report that had not been subjected to routine scientific scrutiny — and ignored warnings from scientific advisers that the evidence supporting the link too weak. The report's own authors later withdrew the claim because they felt the evidence was not strong enough.

The claim by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), that global warming is already affecting the severity and frequency of global disasters, has since become embedded in political and public debate. It was central to discussions at last month's Copenhagen climate summit, including a demand by developing countries for compensation of $100 billion (£62 billion) from the rich nations blamed for creating the most emissions.

Ed Miliband, the energy and climate change minister, has suggested British and overseas floods — such as those in Bangladesh in 2007 — could be linked to global warming. Barack Obama, the US president, said last autumn: "More powerful storms and floods threaten every continent."


The latest criticism of the IPCC comes a week after reports in The Sunday Times forced it to retract claims in its benchmark 2007 report that the Himalayan glaciers would be largely melted by 2035. It turned out that the bogus claim had been lifted from a news report published in 1999 by New Scientist magazine.

The new controversy also goes back to the IPCC's 2007 report in which a separate section warned that the world had "suffered rapidly rising costs due to extreme weather-related events since the 1970s".

It suggested a part of this increase was due to global warming and cited the unpublished report, saying: "One study has found that while the dominant signal remains that of the significant increases in the values of exposure at risk, once losses are normalised for exposure, there still remains an underlying rising trend."

The Sunday Times has since found that the scientific paper on which the IPCC based its claim had not been peer reviewed, nor published, at the time the climate body issued its report.

When the paper was eventually published, in 2008, it had a new caveat. It said: "We find insufficient evidence to claim a statistical relationship between global temperature increase and catastrophe losses."

Despite this change the IPCC did not issue a clarification ahead of the Copenhagen climate summit last month. It has also emerged that at least two scientific reviewers who checked drafts of the IPCC report urged greater caution in proposing a link between climate change and disaster impacts — but were ignored....."
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 25/01/2010 08:47

United Nations caught out again on climate claims

THE UN climate science panel faces new controversy for wrongly linking global warming to a rise in natural disasters such as hurricanes and floods.

The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change based the claims on an unpublished report that had not been subjected to routine scientific scrutiny - and ignored warnings from scientific advisers. The report's author later withdrew the claim because the evidence was too weak.

The link was central to demands at last month's Copenhagen climate summit by African nations for compensation of $US100 billion from the rich nations.

However, the IPCC knew in 2008 that the link could not be proved but did not alert world leaders, who have used weather extremes to bolster the case for action on climate change.

Kevin Rudd last November linked weather extremes to the debate over the government's emissions trading scheme.

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"We will feel the effects of climate change fastest and hardest, and therefore we must act this week, and the government will be doing everything possible to make sure that can occur," the Prime Minister said at the time.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/uni...6-1225823075213
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 25/01/2010 08:49

Glacier claims won grants

THE chairman of the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change has used bogus claims that Himalayan glaciers were melting to win grants worth hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Rajendra Pachauri's Energy and Resources Institute (TERI), based in New Delhi, was awarded up to $US500,000 ($555,000) by the Carnegie Corporation of New York and the lion's share of a $US4 million EU grant funded by European taxpayers.

The revelation comes just a week after London newspaper The Sunday Times highlighted serious scientific flaws in the IPCC's 2007 benchmark report on the likely impacts of global warming.

The IPCC had warned that climate change was likely to melt most of the Himalayan glaciers by 2035 -- an idea considered ludicrous by most glaciologists. Last week, a humbled IPCC retracted that claim and corrected its report.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/glacier-claims-won-grants/story-e6frg6nf-1225823060661
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 25/01/2010 10:22

THE UN has dumped the deadline to tackle climate change, leaving Kevin Rudd isolated in his view that "to delay any longer would be reckless and irresponsible for our economy and our environment".

Rudd made that dire pronouncement at the National Press Club just over a year ago, in December 2008, when he, former US vice-president Al Gore and an assortment of others were hell-bent on introducing the greatest wealth redistribution scheme the world had ever seen.

Now, even the UN has realised that the scam has been exposed and that the support base for its massive global swindle has melted more rapidly than any Himalayan glacier.

The Copenhagen Conference may have been as chaotic as an inner-urban ALP branch meeting, but the fallout has been devastating...

But the Prime Minister is left with his September 2008 claim: "After a long period of inaction, we have drawn a line in the sand on climate change. We recognise it as the greatest economic, environmental and moral challenge of our time."

The day after Rudd declared delay on action on global warming to be "irresponsible" and "reckless", he told a press conference in Brisbane that Copenhagen was the "clear cut" destination point.

"The end point of that," he said, "will decide whether or not as a world community we're serious about the future of the planet."

The world community, through the UN, has just sent him a message. It doesn't think the future of the planet is in as serious a plight as he believes. It doesn't think he is on the right page on global warming.

It has decided that Copenhagen and the hysterical approach to climate change promoted by Rudd and a few others bent on transferring the wealth of the Western nations to the developing world was an over-the-top solution to a problem that increasingly appears to have been based on phoney figures, manipulated data and dodgy science...

They would also be aware that the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), the UN body responsible for the apocalyptic climate predictions, has been caught out making unscientific forecasts in papers distributed for maximum political effect.

Dr Chris Landsea, a climate specialist dealing with hurricanes who quit the IPCC in disgust at the misrepresentation of scientific data five years ago, sounded the alarm then but was ignored as the IPCC promoted a false picture of increasing hurricane and cyclone activity.

Last week, it was revealed that the IPCC had also relied on unscientific claims of Himalayan glacial melts to make its case.

Rudd and Climate Change Minister Penny Wong constantly cited the IPCC as the source of their wild claims about increasing extreme weather events.

The IPCC said the prediction on glacial melt in its landmark 2007 report was "poorly substantiated" and resulted from a lapse in standards.

Rudd and Wong cannot claim the same excuse. They bought the whole argument and branded those who challenged them "deniers".

Apart from owing thousands of well-meaning sceptics an apology, Rudd must also explain why the UN is walking away from him and the issue he claims is "the great moral, economic and environmental challenge of our age".

And he has not addressed the UN's retreat from Copenhagen and the failure of his scaremongering on global warming."

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/op...0-1225822848934
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 25/01/2010 14:11

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/01/24/th...ers/#more-15636
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 25/01/2010 14:24

It seems that the whole shockmeister IPCC claims on the catastrophic global warming / climate change is coming ever further apart at the seams on an hour by hour basis.
The massive and what is now increasingly seen as the totally fraudulent claims of the IPCC re global warming are being revealed in an ever increasing volume.

Even more disgusting is the information that is just starting to emerge but has been long suspected that monumental fraud has been committed by a number of "scientists" and IPCC lead personnel and IPCC affiliated organisations to gain huge tax payer funded grants for "research" based solely on what they knew was completely false non science based and non peered reviewed opportunistic articles from radically warmista outfits like the WWF.

So not only is any data from CRU and now NASA's GISS now completely suspect due to the so far unchallenged findings arising from the CRU e-mails and computer codes and now the release of the GISS e-mails under the American FOI with more to come but the IPCC is now seen as indulging, totally against it's charter, and any ethical standards expected of a globally based research organisation , in deliberately publishing known fraudulent data and information to bolster it's claims of catastrophic global warming.
There are also a number of official organisations that have been full on advocates for catastrophic global warming based on the IPCC's claims that are now in a frantic scramble to distance themselves from the IPCC which they were very willing to support and quote only a few days ago.

Further info is to be found in many blogs as a large number of very competent scientists, even a few journalists and bloggers start some penetrating investigations of the above outfits.

Some sources to enable one to follow further developments are;

WUWT, Climate Audit, the Air Vent, Climate Research News, The Reference Frame, [European. A massive cold spell some 5C below the previous record low temps are due to hit the Czech Republic shortly ] Roger Pielke Jnr, Roger Pielke Snr, Bishop Hill, Jo Nova, EUReferendum, Errors in IPCC science.
That list will do for the moment but there are some more thoroughly reputable skeptic sites out there.

As is usual in the blog world there are also a great number of sites that are little more that repeats of the main skeptic sites or are to far out to have any real credibility at all but those above plus a few I have not listed deal with the real guts of this whole global warming / climate change catalogue of spurious claims in what is now increasingly being seen as an ideology based on nothing more that some fraudulent claims made by an organisation , the IPCC and it's gate keepers in an attempt to keep vast amounts of tax payer funded grants coming their way and / or to try and inflict their particular brand of an ideology on the peoples of the Earth.
Posted by: adon

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 25/01/2010 16:04

Heard an interview today on ABC about the IPCC and the saga going on now. For a change the interviewer was quite agressive in quetioning the scientist she had on. As usual he was agressive in defence but she had the better of him and he didn't sound too convincing. Maybe the media are starting to smell the blood. If this is the case we could be seeing some very probing stories soon on more mainstream media soon.
Posted by: Flying Binghi (2)

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 25/01/2010 16:55

.

China's most senior climate change official surprised a summit in India when he questioned whether global warming is caused by carbon gas emissions and said Beijing is keeping an "open mind".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/environ...ate-change.html






.
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 25/01/2010 17:50

K Rudd gets himself video'd quite matey and close to Pachauri and a number of repeat runs of this "we're mates" shot are in the video on WUWT here
And as Pachauri and the IPCC come even further unstuck and possible fraud charges are indicated against Pachauri and the numerous climate scientists who can be proven to have known that the data they used to get research funds was fraudulent and the dissolution of IPCC itself becomes a political possibility over the next few weeks I am sure that Abbot will rather gleefully use this as a indicator of Rudd's real agenda.

And the Indians are apparently good and mad at being conned with claims that their basic water supply for most of India was under an almost disastrous threat as the Himalayan glaciers melted by 2035 according to the IPCC's claims.
Pachauri went on to call the Indian scientists "arrogant" when they challenged Pachauri and the IPCC's claims after they had run a very major research project to try and ascertain the actual real situation.

NASA, just to top the IPCC in the catastrophe prediction stakes went on to put not 2035 as the critical year when the Himalayan glaciers would all be melted and gone but upped the stakes to the year 2030 when the glaciers and their melt would be finished.
This claim has been hastily removed from the NASA web site in the last day or so since Glaciergate broke.
And on what evidence was the NASA claim based based?
Absolutely nothing it seems except to try and frighten even more the populace and politicians into making the diablolical economic changes that were being demanded by the radical green and global warmistas.
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 25/01/2010 18:09

For a lot of further info from a blogger who has waded deep into the subject on the use of the non peered reviewed, non science propoganda articles from the likes of the radical green and warmista organisations that seem to have become the IPCC's main source of information on the coming catastrophic warming of the planet try Donna Laframboise's blog More Dodgy Citations in the Nobel-Winning IPCC Report

And the IPCC regarded and advertised itself as the world's premier scientific source on the "future of the climate" information and predictions.
Posted by: Keith

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 25/01/2010 18:58

With much tongue-in-cheek and even more poetic license, I thought this up in a few moments of madness:

The boffins came down like the wolf on the fold
And their qualifications had greatness untold
And their brightness of mind was like stars of the sea,
Tho' the flooding from oceans had yet failed to be.

Like the leaves of the forest when Winter is white
In Denmark's fair country that host did alight;
Like the leaves of the forest when autumn hath blown,
That host on the morrow with loud voice did moan,

For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast,
The IPCC was exposed at long last
And the voices of knowledge waxed deadly and chill
Tho' their hearts kept supporting the virtues of Phil,

And there lay the emails all open and wide;
But through them there rolled not a breath of their pride
And the foam of their falsehoods lay spread on the turf,
Much more than sea levels affecting the surf;

And there lay the writers, distorted and pale
With the dew on their brow and the rust on their mail
And the halls were all silent, the banners alone,
The lances all broken, the trumpet unblown

And the prophets of doom remained loud in their wail
Tho' the idols are broke in the Temple of Baal,
And the might of the liars, the IPCC,
Has melted away ..and the people are free.

With apologies to Lord Byron: The Destruction of Sennacherib, 1815.
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 25/01/2010 19:58

Great Poem there Keith!

Alan Jones invites Lord Christopher Monckton into the studio to discuss Climate Change.

http://www.2gb.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=6295&Itemid=134


"CLIMATE sceptic Christopher Monckton says he has evidence climate change is not a problem and that Kevin Rudd’s emissions trading scheme is unnecessary.

Lord Monckton said today he had come to Australia to prove the Prime Minister wrong.

The former adviser to British prime minister Margaret Thatcher said Mr Rudd carried out ”a 45-minute sustained personal attack” on him last November claiming he had no evidence on the effects of climate change.

“I’m going to say to the people of Australia, when your prime minister said I don’t have any evidence, here I am, here is my evidence, here is where I got it from,” Lord Monckton said in Sydney today.

The climate change sceptic will carry out an extensive 13-day lecture tour of Australia at an estimated cost of $100,000. The cost is being covered by two semi-retired Queensland engineers, John Smeed and Case Smit.

Lord Monckton claims climate change isn’t a problem for the planet and carbon dioxide emissions don’t contribute significantly to global warming. He claims world temperatures will rise by just half a degree (Celsius) by the end of the decade, compared with UN scientists’ prediction of a 3.5 degree rise."

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/

Posted by: Keith

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 25/01/2010 21:14

Lord Monckton's letter to the Prime Minister:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/25758604/Lord-...dd-aka-Lu-Kewan
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 26/01/2010 08:42

OOPs!
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 26/01/2010 09:14

From the UK "Telegraph".

After Climategate, Pachaurigate and Glaciergate: Amazongate

And from Dr Richard North's blog "EUReferendum"

And now for Amazongate

The AR4 IPCC report in it's support of it's claims of disastrous global warming cites supposedly peer science reviewed claims that up to 40% of the Amazon rain forest could react drastically to a slight reduction in rainfall.

It has now been revealed that the IPCC sources for this claim were again from the radical warmista advocacy organisation, the WWF and the authors were a Dr PF Moore, a non scientist policy analyst and Andy Rowell, a freelance journalist (for the Guardian, natch) and green activist:
And it seems that there are absolutely no references of any sort to back the IPCC's spurious claims up.

On glaciers retreating and disappearing within a few decades; 12 more glaciers that haven’t heard the news about global warming

The IPCC is rapidly losing all credibility and as an increasing numbers of the MSM are cautiously admitting and a lot of blogs and now even some journalists are openly starting to say, the IPCC is toast!

The Great Global Warming Scam will never recover from this although no doubt some radical climate change activists who want to reshape the world into the image they have for it and science ignorant politicians with lots of taxable dollars in view will still try to persist in pushing this whole climate change / global warming debacle onto the public.
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 26/01/2010 12:36

new us poll

Pew Research poll puts global warming at the bottom
of the list for priorities. (Pew Research)
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 26/01/2010 22:22

U.N. Climate Change Expert Cites More Errors in Report

The head of a panel of United Nations climate scientists said Saturday he would not resign despite a recent admission that a panel report warning Himalayan glaciers could be gone by 2035 was hundreds of years off.

The claim, made in the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change's voluminous, Nobel-winning report, came in a paragraph with several errors. Data indicates the ice could melt by 2350. The assertion went virtually unnoticed until The Sunday Times said the projection seemed to be based on a news report.

The scientists are investigating how the forecast got into the report and apologized Thursday for the mistakes, adding that they were not intentional. But the errors have opened the door for attacks from climate change skeptics.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,583711,00.html?mep
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 27/01/2010 11:05

Great summary of recent Climategate-IPCC etc events by Andrew Bolt published in Adelaide Advertiser today and I would think the Melbourne Herald Sun also
Can be seen at:
CollapsingAGWSupport
Posted by: Keith

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 28/01/2010 08:27

TV news: Penrith Council is cutting garbage bin pickups to once a fortnight to 'cut methane emissions' from landfill.

And a scam exposed..the supermarkets are ripping us off with 'green bags'.

How funny this all looks in the light of the worldwide 'scam'.
Posted by: Arnost

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 28/01/2010 10:34

US to Axe Moon missions

Quote:
NASA's plans to return astronauts to the moon are dead. So are the rockets being designed to take them there

Quote:
In the meantime, the White House will direct NASA to concentrate on Earth-science projects — principally, researching and monitoring climate change


It's good to see that the National Aeronautics and Space Administration has got its priorities right... Not.
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 28/01/2010 10:57

"President Obama is shifting gears for the second year of his administration -- turning his attention to job creation and education reform -- a refocus that he will spell out for the nation when he delivers his first State of the Union address Wednesday night, a senior administration official told Fox News.

The SHIFT AWAY FROM REFORM AND CLIMATE CHANGE demonstrates the impact last week's Republican win in the Massachusetts Senate race has had on the president's agenda. Scott Brown's victory gave the GOP the votes it needs in the Senate to block Obama's most"

27th January 2010
awayfromclimatechange
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 28/01/2010 20:28

These natural climate change deniers just love to have it both ways eh.

Harsh winter a sign of disruptive climate change, report says

This winter's extreme weather -- with heavy snowfall in some places and unusually low temperatures -- is in fact a sign of how climate change disrupts long-standing patterns, according to a new report by the National Wildlife Federation.
It comes at a time when, despite a wealth of scientific evidence, the American public is increasingly skeptical that climate change is happening at all. That disconnect is particularly important this year as the Obama administration and its allies in Congress seek to enact legislation to curb greenhouse gas emissions and revamp the nation's energy supply.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/28/AR2010012800041.html
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 29/01/2010 15:27

Well, Fox was wrong again. I gather you did read the speech and not the spin.

(PS I wasn't impressed with the speech, but even less impressed with the Fox reporting.)
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 29/01/2010 20:00

You may like to enlighten us as to who or what is FOX and what is it you are talking about Ben. May make sense to you, but I have not a clue?
Is it in relation to a previous post? As I have not read them all in detail to find a FOX?
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 30/01/2010 07:27

BD,

I quoted from your post, two posts before mine.

If you can't remember what you posted, or who you were quoting, I'm sorry for any distress this caused.

QUOTE "President Obama is shifting gears for the second year of his administration -- turning his attention to job creation and education reform -- a refocus that he will spell out for the nation when he delivers his first State of the Union address Wednesday night, a senior administration official told Fox News.
UNQUOTE

Now rather than rely on Fox, or FOX, perhaps you could rely on the contents of the speech, the carbon reduction targets announced, and so forth.

QUOTE The SHIFT AWAY FROM REFORM AND CLIMATE CHANGE demonstrates the impact last week's Republican win in the Massachusetts Senate race has had on the president's agenda.UNQUOTE

You are very quick to criticise others for sloppy reporting, or the deliberate distortions we both despise in the IPCC. In this case you aren't even quoting the source material and the information about a shift away from climate change was not supported by the actual speech. It is like quoting this winter as being a record cold one in the US, which is nonsense. Cold, for sure, record cold readings in some centres, sure, this is true in any cold winter. But overall, this was just another cold American winter, except in the north-west, mid-west and south-west, where it was either above average or average, so far.

Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 30/01/2010 08:40

Yes, I later thought about it and realised U meant FOX News, but I did not pay that much attention to the news source which was the same for many news centres, I could have quoted from several different ones basically the same story. But you being a journalist look at who it comes from straight away and know who does what and who does which. We normal people have not much of a clue who reports what and who does this or that, and who leans which way.
Almost all folk just read the news and don't know that much about the journalistic tendencies of which or whatever news source, FOX, Rueters, AAP, whatever, all we see and read andn take in what we think is basically the news from that site. We have not time to work out which news source does what. You are a journalist you have the time. I have a weather occupation not a journalism occupation. I don't reaqlly care whether I am reporting the original source always, or what ever really Ben, you can get technical about it all that is your job, not mine.
I almost always just ussually put up quotes on here, so they are not my words and one and all can take them as they wish, and so can you. Believe it or not...it aint what I said, it is what someone else said.
And as far as US winter, the last couple have been abnormal from most recent years and even if "normal", it aint much like the IPCC prediction that one would expect!
Does not setting ahuge huge amount of cold and snow records make it abnormal and unussually cold! (See WUWT for all the cold records shown on past articles there)
And it sure looks like to me that Climate Change is slipping off all countries agendas some faster than others! They can see the writing on the wall, and thr truth coming out the same as U and I!
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 31/01/2010 13:39

Can it get any worse! An IPCC finding in the report from a "Mountaineering Magazine"! What next a finding from "Womans Weekly"! I can not believe they could do this, how weird and un-proffesional for a major world report!

The magzine issue:



"The United Nations’ expert panel on climate change based claims about ice disappearing from the world’s mountain tops on a student’s dissertation and an article in a mountaineering magazine.

The revelation will cause fresh embarrassment for the The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), which had to issue a humiliating apology earlier this month over inaccurate statements about global warming.

The IPCC’s remit is to provide an authoritative assessment of scientific evidence on climate change.

In its most recent report, it stated that observed reductions in mountain ice in the Andes, Alps and Africa was being caused by global warming, citing two papers as the source of the information.

However, it can be revealed that one of the sources quoted was a feature article published in a popular magazine for climbers which was based on anecdotal evidence from mountaineers about the changes they were witnessing on the mountainsides around them.".......

"Professor Richard Tol, one of the report’s authors who is based at the Economic and Social Research Institute in Dublin, Ireland, said: “These are essentially a collection of anecdotes.

“Why did they do this? It is quite astounding. Although there have probably been no policy decisions made on the basis of this, it is illustrative of how sloppy Working Group Two (the panel of experts within the IPCC responsible for drawing up this section of the report) has been.

“There is no way current climbers and mountain guides can give anecdotal evidence back to the 1900s, so what they claim is complete nonsense.”

The IPCC report, which is published every six years, is used by government’s worldwide to inform policy decisions that affect billions of people.

The claims about disappearing mountain ice were contained within a table entitled “Selected observed effects due to changes in the cryosphere produced by warming”.

It states that reductions in mountain ice have been observed from the loss of ice climbs in the Andes, Alps and in Africa between 1900 and 2000.

The report also states that the section is intended to “assess studies that have been published since the TAR (Third Assessment Report) of observed changes and their effects”.

But neither the dissertation or the magazine article cited as sources for this information were ever subject to the rigorous scientific review process that research published in scientific journals must undergo.

The magazine article, which was written by Mark Bowen, a climber and author of two books on climate change, appeared in Climbing magazine in 2002. It quoted anecdotal evidence from climbers of retreating glaciers and the loss of ice from climbs since the 1970s.

Mr Bowen said: “I am surprised that they have cited an article from a climbing magazine, but there is no reason why anecdotal evidence from climbers should be disregarded as they are spending a great deal of time in places that other people rarely go and so notice the changes.”

The dissertation paper, written by professional mountain guide and climate change campaigner Dario-Andri Schworer while he was studying for a geography degree, quotes observations from interviews with around 80 mountain guides in the Bernina region of the Swiss Alps."
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/01/30/ga...cle/#more-15858


Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 31/01/2010 20:48

Now try IPCC head writes smutty soft porn novel!
Google that and it has gone around the world like a bushfire!
Sad but true! What will come out from the IPCC head next!
"Just when you think things can’t get any more bizarre with the IPCC, having just learned that the IPPC 2007 report used magazine articles for references, head of the IPCC, Dr. Rajenda Pachauri, provides comedy gold. According to the UK Telegraph, he’s just released what they describe as a “smutty” romance novel, Return to Almora laced with steamy sex, lots of sex. Oh, and Shirley MacLaine." "Warning Adult Content!"
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/01/30/ip...vel/#more-15867
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/02/2010 06:26

BD,

While everyone hear including myself is nailing the IPCC for lying (and as I've reported elsewhere, adopting the corporate or marketing lying techniques that have undone everything from wars in far places to grocery frequent buyer programs to new airliners projects) the archived anecdotal evidence of climbers is no different to that of farmers, and those who have lived long enough in the cities to observe changes.

The ice-age-is-coming faction relies on paintings and accounts of winter fairs in Europe and the UK, and there is currently a study underway on the outbreaks of lower latitude icebergs trying to glean more clues as to past behaviour from shipping logs.

A lot of the evidence about the Medieval Warming is anecdotal or coincidental. That is, we can see parallels to what monks noted in 800 to what experiences were recorded in China and Korea.

So let's keep in mind the distinction between the value of anecdotal records and their deliberate misuse, which is the real crime of Dr Pachuri.
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/02/2010 07:59

Glaciers in general are just responding to warming up from the last ice-age and have not reached equilibrium point yet...the melting is little or nothing to do with any recent global warming which is miniscule compared ice age to warm age which has been going on for yonks.
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/02/2010 09:59

What we observe in NZ and Europe is not miniscule, and in both regions hundreds of named glaciers, some of them of notable size are no longer responding because they have completely disappeared.

Obviously it became too cold for them!

Back to reality, the real reason they melted was the core temperatures rose above zero and they became rotted with water. This is why the trunks of the four surviving major piedmont glaciers in NZ are vanishing, namely the Tasman, Hooker, Mueller and Murchison. Technically speaking, only the Tasman is now piedmont in nature in that it still has significant tributary ice streams while the others only have rivers pouring into and under them once you move down from the source neve fields.

These ice feeds and the glaciers that supported them required positive accumulation or, in lay terms, average end of summer snow lines, of around 5500 feet. That accumulation zone has risen to more than 7000 feet in many locations. By way of interest the glacial line over the Australian alps has at times been claimed to be around 9500 feet. Hence no glaciers. In West Papua it is around 16,000 feet, hence remnant and fast disappearing glaciers.

My hope is that a temporary signal from the solar minimum of late might change the situation in the tropical glaciers, which respond very rapidly to temperature and precipitation changes.

So far we don't have one. This is also claimed in Hawaii to be the lowest snow season on record for Mauna Kea, with hardly any snow at all.

The only places we see aggressive glacial advance is in those that surge. These are glaciers where the accumulation field can rapidly exceed the depths of plastic deformation in ice because of copious snowfalls, and cause the catchment to suddenly collapse and discharge itself as a pronounced wave of high ice pushing down the lower glacier.



Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/02/2010 11:39

U.N.'s Global Warming Report Under Fresh Attack for Rainforest Claims

A United Nations report on climate change that has been lambasted for its faulty research is under new attack for yet another instance of what critics say is sloppy science -- guiding global warming policy based on a study of forest fires.

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/01/28/save-rainforest-climate-change-scandal-chopped-facts/
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/02/2010 16:24

Yes, Ben, that is because the glaciers are still responding to the change from the past ice age to the current warm age, they just have not reached equilibrium temp yet. Just like aq large block of ice on the back lawn will slowly melt even though the temp outside goes from minus 2 to plus 2, it takes a long tiome to melt and that is what the ends of the glaciers are doing, it takes a long time to reach the equilibrium temp and to stabilise. The current 0.6C rise (if correct...and we can debate that too!) has little to do with it all.
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/02/2010 17:00

An old story but interesting all the same...

Palm trees 'flourished' in Arctic - study

PALMS flourished in the Arctic during a brief sweltering period about 50 million years ago, according to a study that hints at big gaps in scientific understanding of modern climate change.

The Arctic "would have looked very similar to the vegetation we now see in Florida," Appy Sluijs of Utrecht University in the Netherlands said.

Evidence of palms has never been found so far north before.

The scientists, sampling sediments on a ridge on the seabed that was about 500km from the North Pole 53.5 million years ago, found pollens of ancient palms as well as of conifers, oaks, pecans and other trees.

http://www.news.com.au/world/palm-trees-flourished-in-arctic-study/story-e6frfkz9-1225791205191
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/02/2010 17:35

Is Global Warming a 'Crock of S*%t?'

We are being warned and exhorted that, unless serious measures are taken to reverse our contributions to greenhouse gases, humans have put the planet on an unsustainable course for potential crises up to extinction. The irony is that, on the news, there is little agreement on what's caused massive shifts in temperatures over the past millennium.
"Global warming is a crock of s*%t!" When Bob Lutz, vice-chairman of General Motors, said this in February 2008, it immediately became the most widely distributed quote regarding global warming on the Internet. After all, this was one of the major power Relevant Products/Services players in the automobile industry, and he was implying that anyone who believed that global warming was real, man-made, and altering the planet was something akin to a moron. But the problem with that quote is that it's incomplete. I know. I was there.

It was at a small private luncheon at Cacharel in Arlington, Tex., when Lutz uttered those words. But the quote omits what he said next: "Don't misunderstand me, I'm not a climate denier." As he explained to those present, he simply questions the mindset that blames all the climate change of the past few decades on mankind.

Lutz's comments that day were far more balanced and thoughtful than anyone who heard that particular quote might believe. And therein lies the problem with the current discussions on global warming: The media have taken the position that the science is complete and settled. A unanimous agreement that global warming not only exists but is man-made -- and we're almost past the point where we can still save the planet from it. Moreover, anyone who questions those absolute statements is quickly labeled a "Climate Change Denier." This label is intended to shame and discredit doubters, much like 500 years ago when church officials prosecuted anyone who preached the earth was not the center of the universe.

However, labeling to discredit someone by calling them a "denier" is a distorted and completely unjust position to take on such an important subject. In fact, virtually no one believes the earth has not gone through a period of unexplained warming. Therefore, the term "denier" is not just inaccurate, it's a complete and intentional mischaracterization of those wanting more open and honest scientific studies on the subject.


http://www.sci-tech-today.com/story.xhtml?story_id=133007GI6Y9T&page=1
Posted by: Petros

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/02/2010 18:50

Another story in the Sun today say the IPAC has used a mountaineering magazine article and a students essay to support claims about ice disapearing from the worlds mountain peaks.

For me, more discrediting news esp. after Andrew Bolts article in last weeks Vic Herald-Sun.

I nearly fell off the chair on Saturday morning when my female barber told me that she has been watching the climate debate closely after listening to Al Gore out here and the subsequent discrediting of some of his source data.

She said that she has come to the conclusion that the whole mantra is a "crock of s&%$" designed to make rich people richer.

I think the "normal people" are starting question rather than go along with the "new religion".
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 02/02/2010 07:45

"January 30, 2010 By Curtis Morgan

Bitter cold this month may have wiped out many of the shallow water corals in the Keys.


Scientists have only begun assessments, with dive teams looking for “bleaching” that is a telltale indicator of temperature stress in sensitive corals, but initial reports are bleak. The impact could extend from Key Largo through the Dry Tortugas west of Key West, a vast expanse that covers some of the prettiest and healthiest reefs in North America.

Given the depth and duration of frigid weather, Meaghan Johnson, marine science coordinator for The Nature Conservancy, expected to see losses. But she was stunned by what she saw when diving a patch reef 2.5 miles off Harry Harris Park in Key Largo.

Star and brain corals, large species that can take hundreds of years to grow, were as white and lifeless as bones, frozen to death. There were also dead sea turtles, eels and parrotfish littering the bottom."
http://www.physorg.com/news184044612.html
Posted by: adon

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 02/02/2010 08:01

Originally Posted By: Petros
Another story in the Sun today say the IPAC has used a mountaineering magazine article and a students essay to support claims about ice disapearing from the worlds mountain peaks.

For me, more discrediting news esp. after Andrew Bolts article in last weeks Vic Herald-Sun.

I nearly fell off the chair on Saturday morning when my female barber told me that she has been watching the climate debate closely after listening to Al Gore out here and the subsequent discrediting of some of his source data.

She said that she has come to the conclusion that the whole mantra is a "crock of s&%$" designed to make rich people richer.

I think the "normal people" are starting question rather than go along with the "new religion".


Just think what it would be like if the media were not too busy spewing out chicken little stories and actually delving into some of the background of the people making these claims. They are just as open to having an intrest is keeping this going as "paid off by oil" sceptics. Worldwide media are gutless and weak for being too scared to ask questions that could brand them as denialists.
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 02/02/2010 08:53

A good cartoonist has an ability and a gift of encapsulating a subject in a few brief words wrapped around an image that is usually not much more than a line drawing.
The better cartoonists also have a strong sense of irony that tickles the Australian psyche and are usually good judges of and ahead of the swing in public opinion.

Kudelka in today's Australian really encapsulates the current IPCC debacles.

When the MSM cartoonists start to use satire at this level in their daily cartoons you know that the tide is starting to run strongly against the subject they are illustrating and their masters in the editor's room are probably close behind in the dismantling of the previously held position.
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 02/02/2010 10:56

That is a great cartoon ROM, LOL!
Posted by: mobihci

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 03/02/2010 03:19

the one on the jonova site is a good one, but a bit realistic to be funny-

Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 03/02/2010 13:28

http://www.news.com.au/world/trees-grow-faster-due-to-global-warming/story-e6frfkyi-1225826169607
Posted by: Keith

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 03/02/2010 13:32

I'm glad he's only 'suggesting' it as a cause.
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 04/02/2010 19:14

"The fact that glaciers in the Himalayan mountains are thinning is not disputed. However, few researchers have attempted to rigorously examine and quantify the causes. Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory scientist Surabi Menon set out to isolate the impacts of the most commonly blamed culprit—greenhouse gases, such as carbon dioxide—from other particles in the air that may be causing the melting. Menon and her collaborators found that airborne black carbon aerosols, or soot, from India is a major contributor to the decline in snow and ice cover on the glaciers.

“Our simulations showed greenhouse gases alone are not nearly enough to be responsible for the snow melt,” says Menon, a physicist and staff scientist in Berkeley Lab’s Environmental Energy Technologies Division. “Most of the change in snow and ice cover—ABOUT 90 percent—is from AEROSOLS. Black carbon alone contributes at least 30 percent of this sum.”

Menon and her collaborators used two sets of aerosol inventories by Indian researchers to run their simulations; their results were published online in the journal Atmospheric Chemistry and Physics...

The actual contribution of black carbon, emitted largely as a result of burning fossil fuels and biomass, may be even higher than 30 percent because the inventories report less black carbon than what has been measured by observations at several stations in India. (However, these observations are too incomplete to be used in climate models.) “We may be underestimating the amount of black carbon by as much as a factor of four,” she says.

The findings are significant because they point to a simple way to make a swift impact on the snow melt. “Carbon dioxide stays in the atmosphere for 100 years, but black carbon doesn’t stay in the atmosphere for more than a few weeks, so the effects of controlling black carbon are much faster,” Menon says. “If you control black carbon now, you’re going to see an immediate effect.”
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/02/03/lb...elt/#more-16049
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 05/02/2010 10:14

India pulls out of IPCC!

"In India the claims have heightened tensions between Dr Pachauri and the government, which had earlier questioned his assessment. In autumn, Jairam Ramesh, its environment minister, said that some glaciers were actually advancing despite global warming.


Dr Pachauri had dismissed the government's claims as "voodoo science", but on Thursday night Mr Ramesh effectively marginalized the IPCC chairman even further.


He announced that the Indian government will establish a separate National Institute of Himalayan Glaciology to monitor the effects of climate change on the world's "third ice cap", and an "Indian IPCC" to use climate science to assess the impact of global warming throughout the country.


He said: "[The] IPCC doesn't do the original research which is one of the weaknesses.?.?. they just take published literature and then they derive assessments, so we had goof-ups on Amazon forest, glaciers, snow peaks."

http://www.montrealgazette.com/technolog...2820/story.html
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 05/02/2010 12:19

Well, maybe not pulling out but clearly very dissatisfied!
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 06/02/2010 07:19

Lawmaker: Climate change just ruse to control population
House » Panel votes 10-1 for resolution denouncing the science and proposed bill.

Rep. Mike Noel, the Legislature's chief climate-change skeptic, declared Thursday that global warming is a conspiracy to control world population.

The House Natural Resources Committee then approved a resolution that expresses the Utah Legislature's belief that "climate alarmists' carbon dioxide-related global warming hypothesis is unable to account for the current downturn in global temperatures."

The resolution, sent to the House on a 10-1 vote, would urge the Environmental Protection Agency to drop plans to regulate the pollution blamed for climate change "until a full and independent investigation of the climate data conspiracy and global warming science can be substantiated."

http://www.sltrib.com/News/ci_14337716
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 07/02/2010 09:17

New climate change body

NEW DELHI - India has established its own body to monitor the effects of global warming because it "cannot rely" on the United Nations' Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), the group headed by its own Nobel Prize-winning scientist Dr R K Pachauri.

The Indian government's move is a snub to both the IPCC and Dr Pachauri following the revelation that his most recent climate change report included false claims that the Himalayan glaciers would melt away by 2035.

Environment Minister Jairam Ramesh announced that the Indian government will establish a separate National Institute of Himalayan Glaciology to monitor the effects of climate change on the world's "third ice cap".

The Indian Network on Comprehensive Climate Change Assessment will publish its own report on the impact of global warming this year. "There is a fine line between climate science and climate evangelism. I am for climate science. I think people misused (the) IPCC report," he added.

http://www.todayonline.com/World/EDC100206-0000052/New-climate-change-body
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 07/02/2010 09:35

Arctic Climate Changing Faster Than Expected

WINNIPEG, Manitoba (Reuters) - Climate change is transforming the Arctic environment faster than expected and accelerating the disappearance of sea ice, scientists said on Friday in giving their early findings from the biggest-ever study of Canada's changing north.

Both the Canadian government and the oil and gas industry are keenly interested in the possible environmental impact of development further north in the Arctic, said professor Louis Fortier of Laval University.

Currently, development is focused on mainland regions such as the massive gas fields in the Mackenzie River Delta on the Beaufort Sea. But receding ice levels may make the wider Arctic more accessible to ships and make drilling in more areas possible.

"Conclusions will come later, but ... up to now there's no indication that the impacts would be larger (further north) than elsewhere in the Arctic," Fortier said.

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory?id=9762170
Posted by: SBT

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 07/02/2010 11:28

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8500443.stm seems the tide is starting to turn slightly in favour of the skeptics at last.
Posted by: SBT

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 07/02/2010 11:55

My post above it links to the BBC online news story already linked above. Sundayitis.
Posted by: Petros

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 07/02/2010 12:22

The tide of opinion may further increase once the folk in New York have had 3-4 days stuck inside their homes with nothing to think about other than when will the record snow falls clear from their roads.
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 07/02/2010 17:16


PUBLIC INFORMATION STATEMENT...CORRECTED REAGAN NATIONAL INFO
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE BALTIMORE MD/WASHINGTON DC
1030 PM EST SAT FEB 06 2010

...PRELIMINARY SUMMARY OF TWO-DAY STORM TOTAL SNOWFALLS EXCEEDED IN
THE BALTIMORE-WASHINGTON AREA...

THE 32.4 INCH TWO-DAY STORM TOTAL SNOWFALL RECORDED TODAY AT DULLES
INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT EXCEEDS THE PREVIOUS TWO-DAY STORM RECORD OF
23.2 INCHES ON 7-8 JANUARY 1996.

THE 24.8 INCH TWO-DAY STORM TOTAL SNOWFALL ESTIMATED TODAY AT
BALTIMORE/WASHINGTON INTERNATIONAL THURGOOD MARSHALL AIRPORT EXCEEDS
THE PREVIOUS TWO-DAY STORM TOTAL SNOWFALL RECORD OF 24.4 INCHES FOR
BWI AIRPORT FROM 16-17 FEBRUARY 2003. THIS WOULD ALSO BE THE 2ND
HIGHEST TWO-DAY STORM TOTAL ALL-TIME SNOWFALL FOR BALTIMORE RECORDS
WHICH DATE BACK TO 1871...BEING SECOND ONLY TO THE 26.3 INCHES WHICH
FELL 27-28 JANUARY 1922.

THE 17.8 INCH TWO-DAY STORM TOTAL SNOWFALL RECORDED TODAY AT RONALD
REAGAN WASHINGTON NATIONAL AIRPORT IS THE SECOND HIGHEST TWO-DAY
STORM TOTAL RECORD...SECOND ONLY TO THE 18.7 INCHES FOR NATIONAL
AIRPORT FROM 18-19 FEBRUARY 1979. THIS WOULD ALSO BE THE 4TH
HIGHEST TWO-DAY STORM TOTAL ALL-TIME SNOWFALL FOR WASHINGTON RECORDS
WHICH DATE BACK TO 1871...BEHIND ONLY THE 27-28 JANUARY 1922
KNICKERBOCKER STORM WITH 26.0 INCHES...THE 12-13 FEBRUARY 1899 STORM
WHICH PRODUCED 19.0 INCHES...AND THE 18.7 INCHES WHICH FELL 18-19
FEBRUARY 1979.

AS WITH ANY MAJOR CLIMATE RECORD ACHIEVEMENT...THESE PRELIMINARY
RECORDS WILL BE QUALITY CONTROLLED BY NOAA'S NATIONAL CLIMATIC DATA
CENTER OVER THE NEXT SEVERAL WEEKS.
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 07/02/2010 17:19



Following an investigation by this blog (and with the story also told in The Sunday Times), another major "mistake" in the IPCC's benchmark Fourth Assessment Report has emerged.

Similar in effect to the erroneous "2035" claim – the year the IPCC claimed that Himalayan glaciers were going to melt – in this instance we find that the IPCC has wrongly claimed that in some African countries, yields from rain-fed agriculture could be reduced by up to 50 percent by 2020.

At best, this is a wild exaggeration, unsupported by any scientific research, referenced only to a report produced by a Canadian advocacy group, written by an obscure Moroccan academic who specialises in carbon trading, citing references which do not support his claims.

Unlike the glacier claim, which was confined to a section of the technical Working Group II report, this "50 percent by 2020" claim forms part of the key Synthesis Report, the production of which was the personal responsibility of the chair of the IPCC, Dr R K Pachauri. It has been repeated by him in many public fora. He, therefore, bears a personal responsibility for the error.

The tale unfolds

"Excellencies, members of the media, distinguished ladies and gentlemen! I speak to you in the voice of the world's scientific community...". So declared Dr R K Pachauri in his opening address to the climate summit in Potsdam last September.

In the name of that "scientific community" which in November 2007 had completed the IPCC's Fourth Assessment Report (AR4) - "the collective effort of almost four thousand of the world's best specialists working tirelessly over five years" – Dr Pachauri larded his speech with examples of impending doom.

Thus he told the assembly that, by 2020, "in some countries of Africa yields from rain-fed agriculture could be reduced by up to 50 percent".

Crucially, this was not a random statement plucked from one of the working group reports but one highlighted in the "gold standard" Synthesis Report (Section 3.3.2).

That report is based on the assessment carried out by the three Working Groups and provides "an integrated view of climate change" as the final part of the IPCC's Fourth Assessment Report (AR4). It represents the considered view of the IPCC as a corporate body and is the part of AR4 which Pachauri had personally supervised as leader of the core writing team.

http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2010/02/and-now-for-africagate.html

THE HAGUE: The Netherlands has asked the UN climate change panel to explain an inaccurate claim in a landmark 2007 report that more than half the
country was below sea level, the Dutch government said on Friday.

According to Dutch authorities, only 26% of the country is below sea level, and the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change will be asked to account for its figures, environment ministry spokesman Trimo Vallaart said.

The incident may cause further embarrassment for the IPCC, which recently admitted that a claim in the same report that global warming could melt Himalayan glaciers by 2035 was wrong.

IPCC experts calculated that 55% of the Netherlands was below sea level by adding the area below sea level — 26% — to the area threatened by river flooding — 29% — Vallaart said. “They should have been clearer”, Vallaart said, adding that the Dutch office for environmental planning, an IPCC partner, had exact figures.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world...how/5540792.cms
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 08/02/2010 12:32

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/climat...00207-nky5.html
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 08/02/2010 14:36

Antarctic snow linked to WA dry

Scientists have discovered a link between the ongoing drought in the south western corner of Australia and increased snowfall in parts of Antarctica.

Dr Tas van Ommen of the Australian Antarctic Division (AAD) says ice core samples taken from Law Dome in East Antarctica show an unusual and consistent increase in snowfall since the late 1960s.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/02/08/2812825.htm
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 08/02/2010 14:39

And the NH continues to freeze. Brrrrr


Washington freezes under record snowfall

Washington DC is starting to dig itself out from under yesterday's record snowfall but 100,000 homes in the region are still without power.

The US capital is still crippled by the massive snowfall, which dumped 60 to 100 centimetres of snow across America's mid-Atlantic.

Icy conditions and freezing winds are not helping efforts to clear roads and repair broken power lines.

Major cities are effectively shut down, public transport services have been suspended and authorities are appealing to people to stay off the roads.

Forecasters say the wind chill and icy conditions mean the snow is not going anywhere in a hurry.

Another 30 centimetres of snow is expected to fall by Wednesday.

Officials are considering opening shelters for thousands of families who have no means of keeping warm.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/02/08/2812840.htm
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 08/02/2010 22:06

Panel on Climate Faces Challenges

The Nobel-prize-winning Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change faces new challenges following a call for an investigation of its conduct and for its chairman to resign amid continuing criticism of the scientific basis of its reports.

Republican Sen. John Barrasso of Wyoming called on Thursday for the independent investigation and for Dr. Rajendra Pachauri, head of the Geneva-based panel, to resign.

The panel has so far declined to make Dr. Pachauri available for an interview, and officials didn't return phone calls or emails over the weekend seeking further comment. Republicans previously had pushed for him to resign in the fall.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704197104575051620263103684.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
Posted by: Arnost

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 12/02/2010 14:12

Not necessarily AGW - but an interesting article none-the-less:

Quote:
Antarctic ice shelf collapse possibly triggered by ocean waves, Scripps-led study finds


linky
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 13/02/2010 08:40

There are some early Snowmageddon pix with this post on my air transport blog.

Snowmageddon does Dulles-Plane Talking

Latest operational airline data this morning has widespread closures and dislocations in parts of Florida, Alabama and Texas due to 30 cms of wet (mild temperature) snow. This is the worst situation for de-icing and runway/taxiway clearances because it sticks. Snowmageddon II has indeed done Dallas, not just Dulles. Note the reference in the post to the Knickbocker Theatre disaster in DC in 1922, in what was a very similar snow storm. 'Warm' dense wet snow, fast accumulation, and structural collapses occurred in places where normal but also colder, drier snow tends to clear in any wind before it exceeds load tolerances.

I asked some operations people in the US on a closed user group that trades airline data how the disclocation situation had played out overall this winter. While it is not over yet, the bad zones included western Europe and the UK and the Atlantic Seaboard (and now south eastern states) and severe early winter dislocations occurred in northern China. Russia, eastern Europe and eastern Siberia have been normal to better (clearer) than normal. In the western and middle US this has been an average to below average winter, which is painfully obvious in Vancouver. Seattle has been much milder than the previous three winters.

I also recently checked the operational performance of Antarctica strips. So far this has been an ordinary 'summer' and much milder than the previous two summer flight seasons for McMurdo but with increased visibility issues. The Casey blue ice runway was closed recently preventing the GG making a flight by slush and water damage. However on a totally unscientific basis, we are seeing slightly colder than usual readings from the major snow dome stations in the last week or so. Already some below -50C. (About time).

For Snowmi and other denizens like myself of the higher ranges I think we should be optimistic that there will be a signal get through from the extended solar minimum (now over) and have a few good snowfalls this winter.
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 13/02/2010 17:12

A constant refrain from the global warmers is that the skeptics are being paid by Big Oil.
In their apparent inability to apply the same standards to themselves as they demand of others they seem to overlook that the same Big Oil, ; ie; Shell and Exxon have poured some millions of dollars into the pockets of the CRU team of theClimate gate and climate data manipulation notoriety.
But even this number pales into insignificance compared to the immense tax payer funded gravy train that the warmist science and climate warming catastrophists and advocacy mobs have been getting over the last few years.
And when the tax paying public wake up to how much they are being duped to line the pockets of the warmista catastrophists and advocacy mobs whose sole purpose is seemingly to tax that same public even more and all based on non existent and / or fraudulent science, the public backlash might become even more severe.

And the headlines on the article below are just the tip of the extraordinarily lavish taxpayer funded warmista climate iceberg when you read the article.

From the UK Telegraph;
Great news: the people responsible for A... your tax money

And Richard North in the European view point EUReferendum & [ Climate Money ] on the same massive financial rip off by the warmista advocates both from science and green mobs who are supposedly non profit outfits but collect immense tax payer handouts and have huge salaries for their senior administrators.

JoNova was onto the lavish handouts to the warmistas quite some time ago but the scene was not then quite set by the release of the climate gate files and the consequent opening up for examination of the whole disgraceful corruption of science, the corruption of the political process, the full exposure of the utterly weak kneed and utterly miserable laydown , non investigating and non questioning performance of the MSM on policies that were going to change the entire social structure of our society and quite possibly of our democratic form of government as well.
Posted by: Blizzard

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 13/02/2010 17:59

Originally Posted By: Ben Sandilands
There are some early Snowmageddon pix with this post on my air transport blog.

Snowmageddon does Dulles-Plane Talking


...For Snowmi and other denizens like myself of the higher ranges I think we should be optimistic that there will be a signal get through from the extended solar minimum (now over) and have a few good snowfalls this winter.


Great link Ben. Yes, I don't know a lot about solar minimums and quiet suns but other factors show signs of some goodish outbreaks this winter too.
Posted by: Ijay

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 13/02/2010 18:48

Well Blizz you have my attention, please say some more about the other factors.
Posted by: nitso

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 13/02/2010 23:24

A very interesting debate between Lord Monckton today and the Aussie Dr Tim Lambert on Sky news. Try and have a look on youtube for it or see if Sky News will replay it later in the week.

Not sure if they changed anyone's mind . . . but they showed very obvious flaws in the scientific methods on both sides.

Proves that the research into AGW is a complete and utter subjective process no matter which way you look at it.

Anyway, have a look around for it, it was a very healthy debate between 2 of the best minds in their respective fields (and unlike most debates) didn't degrade into a personal attack. It was well handled by Allan Jones who was the mediator/controller.
Posted by: Blizzard

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 14/02/2010 08:24

Originally Posted By: Ijay
Well Blizz you have my attention, please say some more about the other factors.


Just the usual indicators Ijay with Elnino weakening (hopefully) which tends to move us into better snow years, SST support etc. Will leave it for another thread and for a few months yet as indicators mean little at this stage but there is hope. smile
Posted by: Canberra's Weather

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 14/02/2010 09:51

Going by the experience lasting the 2nd half of the 1980s (after the early 1980s El Nino), the rains seem to be slowly coming back. There were downpours scattered about in 1986, 1987, then came the 1988–91 La Nina when it rained in big long spells (and who could forget the humidity keeping up the temperatures denying us very good frosts in 1988 right through to 1991). And remember the downpours and thunderstorms of November 1989? November 86 and November 87 saw good storm/downpours too!

.....so who knows, maybe the conveyer belts of the oceans are bringing back the rains this way like they did back then?
Posted by: adon

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 14/02/2010 17:28

Just watched Lord Monckton interviewing Greenpeace activists....LMAO what a bunch of sheep! None of them knew a thing! Rent-a-crowd anyone?????
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 15/02/2010 07:12

Did the non-sitting Lord reveal his other successes in curing Graves Disease and HIV. Or explain why he is a Nobel Laureate? I think the activists were most disrespectful not just of the world's greatest climate change authority, but its most accomplished epidemiologist.

Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 15/02/2010 17:16

49 states with snow, 1180 new snowfall records set in the USA this past week – is February Headed For Record Snowfall?
13/02/2010
AP’s Seth
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/02/13/49...all/#more-16391

(PS. Tut Tut BS, not nice talk!)
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 15/02/2010 18:54

Here are some actual figures I quoted in the wrong thread earlier.

The most important snow data in the US for farmers is snowpack accumulation in late winter, as it determines likely run off and is relevant to planning the early spring plantings.

The data does not support claims of a record winter in the US for either snow or cold temperatures.

In the latest edition of the Capitol Press agricultural bulletin the figures from the NRCS monitors report that on February 4 the Oregon snowpack was 67% of the 30 year average, Washington state was 74%, Idaho was 67% and California was 77%. The only figure to show a strong improvement was California where the snowpack figures represent a break in the previous three years of warm and dry conditions.

These figures are described as consistent with the effects of an El Nino, which locally leads to more precipitation in California, but drier and warmer conditions to the north in Oregon and Washington and into the adjacent mountain states.

Farmers are being advised to plan for relatively limited water supplies this northern summer unless a 'March miracle' recharges the snow pack.

Now this isn't saying the records claimed on Watts Up aren't real. They refer to short term events during the winter, just as we can have a good single fall in the Oberon Tablelands that might be a daily or weekly record for say August but still occurring in a sub-par season. Records have been set in the US in states where this sort of snow is unusual this winter, yet at the same time it has been a disappointing snow season where snow is usually deeper and longer lasting, such as the mid west and western mountain states.

It's interesting that this northern winter Hawaii has remained the snow free state, given that Mauna Kea is normally subject to reasonable periods of cover, sometimes skiable, from November through to the end of February.

I'm hoping that this 'outside the usual areas' pattern of snowfalls we have seen in the northern hemisphere carries over to our winter.
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 15/02/2010 22:13

Underground Caves Suggest Climate Change Is Weirder Than We Thought

Most scientists believe that ocean levels dropped for the past 100,000 years as Earth cooled, but a new study of these stalactites in ancient undersea caves suggests otherwise. Today's temperatures are similar to Earth's 81,000 years ago.

Sea levels on Earth change as glaciers grow and shrink, lowering as temperatures cool and more ice forms. According to a release about the study, which appears today in Science:

81,000 years ago, the level of the sea was actually more than a meter above where it stands now, a result seemingly at odds with prevailing ideas about ice sheet growth. Since the sea rises and falls with the melting and forming of large glaciers, respectively, this finding therefore implies that polar ice sheets were smaller and global temperatures were at least as high (or even higher) 81,000 years ago than they are now, even though the concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere was much lower back then. In order to reach these new conclusions, Jeffrey Dorale and colleagues took measurements from a cave formation on the Spanish island of Mallorca which has been intermittently submerged in the Mediterranean Sea over hundreds of thousands of years. Their data suggest that glaciers may grow and shrink faster than experts had believed, and if verified, the results of this study are poised to change the debate over precisely how ice ages come and go.

One possibility is that so-called glacier cycles are not necessarily related to cycles of carbon and methane in the atmosphere.

http://io9.com/5470031/underground-caves-suggest-climate-change-is-weirder-than-we-thought/gallery/
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 15/02/2010 22:23

Climate scientists admit fresh error over data on rising sea levels
Latest embarrassment comes as key sceptic Benny Peiser backs down in row over fabricated quote

Climate experts have been forced to admit another embarrassing error in their most recent report on the threat of climate change.

In a background note – released by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) last night – the UN group said its 2007 report wrongly stated that 55% of the Netherlands lies below sea level. In fact, only 26% of the country does. The figure used by the IPCC included all areas in the country that are prone to flooding, including land along rivers above sea level. This accounts for 29% of the Dutch countryside.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/feb/14/benny-peiser-houghton-ipcc-apology
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 15/02/2010 22:27

Series of missteps by climate scientists threatens climate-change agenda

With its 2007 report declaring that the "warming of the climate system is unequivocal," the U.N. Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change won a Nobel Prize -- and a new degree of public trust in the controversial science of global warming.

But recent revelations about flaws in that seminal report, ranging from typos in key dates to sloppy sourcing, are undermining confidence not only in the panel's work but also in projections about climate change. Scientists who have pointed out problems in the report say the panel's methods and mistakes -- including admitting Saturday that it had overstated how much of the Netherlands was below sea level -- give doubters an opening.

It wasn't the first one. There is still a scientific consensus that humans are causing climate change. But in the past year, a cache of stolen e-mails, revealing that prominent climate scientists sought to prevent the publication of works by their detractors, has sullied their image as impartial academics. The errors in the U.N. report -- a document intended to be the last nail in the coffin of climate doubt -- are a serious problem that could end up forcing environmentalists to focus more on the old question of proving that climate change is a threat, instead of the new question of how to stop it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/14/AR2010021404283.html
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 16/02/2010 08:24

The snow line in the NH is moving southwards so Steven Godddard says...
"As we have been discussing on WUWT, three of the last four months have seen top ten Northern Hemisphere snow extents and the decadal trend has been towards increasing (and above normal) snow extent during the autumn and winter. It appears that this month will achieve snow extent among the top two Februaries on record.

As you can see in the Rutgers University maps below for mid-February, the excess snow cover is necessarily found at lower latitudes. Snow cover radiates out from the pole, so the only place where snow extent can increase is towards the south.

The implication of the observed trend towards increasing snow extent is that the Northern Hemisphere autumn/winter snow line is moving southwards over the last ten to twenty years."
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/02/15/the-snow-line-is-moving-south/#more-16440
Posted by: Rime

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 16/02/2010 11:40

The following is not directly related to climate, but it proves a point. Cooling is far more detrimental to the environment than warming.

Coral dying because it is too cold? Who would have thought of that! Silly me. I was under the impression that coral is dying because of warming. That is what the ABC was telling me over the years.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Cold snap killing Florida's coral reefs
February 16, 2010 11:22AM

THE polar snap enveloping much of the United States in record cold has been killing off coral reefs and causing iguanas to drop out of trees in the normally balmy warm waters off the Florida Keys, experts said today.

The unusually chilly weather so far this year has seen sea temperatures plummet in southern Florida - a fatal development for the coral, which dies when exposed for an extended time to temperatures below 15 degrees Celsius.

Especially in the lower Keys, "temperatures have been lower ... there is higher mortality", Diego Lirman, a University of Miami expert on coral, said.

Florida's usually mild and sunny winter weather has given way to record low temperatures during the historic cold snap in recent weeks.

In Miami, the thermometer in January and February regularly dropped below 1.6 Celsius, the coldest temperatures since 1970.

The cold snap also has led to "bleaching", in which the coral loses pigmentation and ultimately dies.

Full article here.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 16/02/2010 12:36

As one of the WattsUp readers pointed out.

Looking at the Rutgers seasonal data there is no significant trend in the fall and winter snow extents for the northern hemisphere. As for spring and summer, the trend is significantly down over the last few decades.

http://climate.rutgers.edu/snowcover/chart_seasonal.php?ui_set=nhland&ui_season=3

Your post should have been titled: “The Snow Line is Moving North.”
15 02 2010'

And as others noted, the real measure of snow and ice lines is the end of summer line, since without left over snow glaciers don't grow.

And total glacial extent is not growing.

In the past 10 years there have been isolated occasions in the northern winter when the satellite images of snow cover have included a large part of Libya and most of the Middle East including Dubai.

If WattsUp had been around then presumably this would have been evidence of imminent glacial disaster. All that the February map shows is snow on the ground, regardless of how deep.
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 16/02/2010 12:40

Don't worry Rime. When I was at McMurdo Sound in 1979 there were corals growing under the base of the floating Ross Sea ice shelf. In water that was super chilled at -8C.

One species of coral dies, another, better adapted coral replaces it.
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 16/02/2010 16:10

The stats say south to Steven in that period...show me your stats that it moving north Ben?
Plenty of snow further south in the past few years in NH winter for sure that is a fact in Europe, Britian and USA and China area too!!!
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 16/02/2010 19:34

BD,

If the late summer snowlines have moved up slope, or up latitude, the snowline is heading north (or south, around these parts). Personally I'm all for more snow, well, up to a point. But with a below average winter over much of the US, and widespread heavy falls in other parts, the reports don't fulfil the headline promises.

Still they do make good reading, and I'm hoping for the same degree of variability here this winter.
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 16/02/2010 20:16

The Continuing Climate Meltdown
More embarrassments for the U.N. and 'settled' science.

It has been a bad—make that dreadful—few weeks for what used to be called the "settled science" of global warming, and especially for the U.N. Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change that is supposed to be its gold standard.

First it turns out that the Himalayan glaciers are not going to melt anytime soon, notwithstanding dire U.N. predictions. Next came news that an IPCC claim that global warming could destroy 40% of the Amazon was based on a report by an environmental pressure group. Other IPCC sources of scholarly note have included a mountaineering magazine and a student paper.

Since the climategate email story broke in November, the standard defense is that while the scandal may have revealed some all-too-human behavior by a handful of leading climatologists, it made no difference to the underlying science. We think the science is still disputable. But there's no doubt that climategate has spurred at least some reporters to scrutinize the IPCC's headline-grabbing claims in a way they had rarely done previously.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703630404575053781465774008.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 16/02/2010 20:58

THEORY OF CLIMATE CHANGE... MORE SCANDALS
Scandals Thicken: Racy Fiction Writer or IPCC Chairman
Feb 8, 2010

http://forum.weatherzone.com.au/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=835332&#Post835332
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 17/02/2010 19:41

Stupid woman!!!

Mr. Limbaugh: The Record Snows of This Winter Are Proof of Global Warming

Tuning in to Rush Limbaugh's radio show today really got my temperature to rise. He mocked Al Gore's recent blog in which Gore stated that the situation of Arctic ice melting may be worse than we thought. Limbaugh took issue with that and declared that this unusually cold and snowy U.S. winter is proof that there is no global warming. He also called those who believe in climate change "suckers."

I think it is proof that Rush Limbaugh is narrow minded and short sighted. He is looking at the world from his local, limited perspective with blinders on, not seeing the big global picture. Either that or he doesn't want to see it.

The truth as told by meteorologists is that there are some northern places in our hemisphere that are having a "warmer" than usual winter (ask Vancouver, British Columbia where the rain instead of snow has wreaked havoc on the current Winter Olympics). That "warm" air is pushing the colder air south to middle and eastern American states. That and El Nino, which is caused by "warm" temperatures in the Pacific Ocean, are creating a string of low pressure areas that are moving across the country in a southeasterly flow and then are swept up the east coast as nor'eastern storms in the form of snow.

Who are we going to believe on this subject? Al Gore, who has dedicated his life to researching global warming and the environment or Rush Limbaugh, a pawn of big business and the financial backers of former President George W. Bush who did nothing to fight climate change for eight years? Perhaps these "fat cats" feel green energy will cut into their profits.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joan-e-dowlin/mr-limbaugh-the-record-sn_b_463417.html
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 17/02/2010 19:46

Lowry: Re-open case for catastrophic climate change

By Rich Lowry

Climate alarmists conjured a world where nothing was certain but death, taxes and catastrophic global warming. They used this presumed scientific certainty as a bludgeon against the skeptics they deemed "deniers," a word meant to have the whiff of Holocaust denial.

All in the cause of hustling the world into a grand carbon-rationing scheme. Any questions about the evidence for the cataclysmic projections, any concerns about the costs and benefits were trumped by that fearsome scientific "consensus," which had "settled" the important questions.

A funny thing happened to this "consensus" on the way to its inevitable triumph, though. Its propagators have been forced to admit fallibility. For the cause of genuine science, this is a small step forward; for the cause of climate alarmism, it's a giant leap backward. The rush to "save the planet" cannot accommodate any doubt, or it loses the panicked momentum necessary for a retooling of modern economic life.

Phil Jones is the director of the Climate Research Unit at the University of East Anglia, a key "consensus" institution that has recently been caught up in an e-mail scandal revealing a mind-set of global-warming advocacy rather than dispassionate inquiry. Asked by the BBC what it means when scientists say "the debate on climate change is over," the keeper of the flame sounded chastened. "I don't believe the vast majority of climate scientists think this," Jones said. "This is not my view. There is
Advertisement
still much that needs to be undertaken to reduce uncertainties, not just for the future, but for the ... past as well."

http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/ci_14410943
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 17/02/2010 19:54

Climate-Research Controversies Create Opening for Critics

The spate of recent controversies about climate research has given fresh voice to a group of scientists who question the mainstream view that human activity is warming the planet to dangerous levels.

Very few scientists disagree that the earth's climate has warmed since 1850. But some have long argued that there are too many uncertainties about man's role in the warming, and that other factors, such as solar activity and the greenhouse effect of clouds, could account for a large part of the observed warming trend. Among this group are researchers who have criticized the limitations of past temperature records and mathematical models used to forecast future effects.

Such views are getting a fresh airing on the heels of two recent controversies dogging climate researchers. A United Nations group, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, or IPCC, has been heavily criticized for publishing an unsubstantiated claim that Himalayan glaciers would entirely melt away by 2035. A recent report also included several other claims later found to lack a scientific basis, including predictions of the impact of climate change on agriculture in Africa and the retreat of Amazonian rain forests, among others.

News of those discrepancies followed a scandal in Britain where the publication of hacked emails of climate scientists suggested they had declined to share their data with fellow researchers and tried to squelch dissenting views about climate change.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704804204575069723794293584.html
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 17/02/2010 21:01

This will no doubt annoy the social engineering tendency in matters concerning climate change, but if any one wants to drill down through the links in the story I posted today on the BA/Solena announcement they will I hope gain an insight into the role of energy technology in reducing the industrial influence on climate.

Sh*t for fuel (or other solids) turn BA green-Plane Talking

Hmm. The link appears to run into the naughty word rule, but the item about British Airways replacing a significant amount of fossil fuel with a non-fossil carbon releasing synthetic fuel is for at least until early tomorrow at the top of:

Plane Talking

Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 18/02/2010 07:21

IPCC gate Du Jour – Antarctic Sea Ice Increase Underestimated by 50%
17/02/2010
From World Climate Report:
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/02/17/ip...-50/#more-16486

Northern Hemisphere Snow Extent Second Highest on Record
17/02/2010
Guest post by Steven Goddard
According to Rutgers University Global Snow Lab, last week’s Northern Hemisphere snow extent was the second highest on record, at 52,166,840 km2. This was only topped by the second week in February, 1978 at 53,647,305 km2. Rutgers has kept records continuously for the last 2,227 weeks, so being #2 is quite an accomplishment
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/02/17/no...ord/#more-16489
Posted by: Mike Hauber

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 18/02/2010 10:05

Full winter snow extent according to Rutgers



And for summer:



The snow extent will be determined by the temperature of a small area of the globe, specifically the temperate regions where temperature variations are large enough to make a difference between snow and no snow. Being determined by the temperature of a small area of the globe means that a significant trend in snow extent will take longer than a significant trend in global temperatures. Climate scientists say a significant trend in temperature due to AGW needs about 20 years. So obviously it needs more than 20 years for snow cover, and a 20 year increase in snow cover for one season only is certainly within the bounds of expected random variation.

A GISS trend map for winter the last 20 years shows significant regional variation with some areas of the globe cooling, and some areas warming, and a global average of significant warming. The cooling areas just happen to be Europe USA and Russia where winter snow extent is determined. Also cooling in last 20 years is north Australia and much of Antarctica.



Map generated from here
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 18/02/2010 13:29

Fascinating, is it the same Rutgers University data in BD's quote from Wattsup and in Mike's, or has someone, for want of a better term, IPCC'd the data?
Posted by: Arnost

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 18/02/2010 13:42

It is the same data... the WUWT starts in 1989 whilst the Rutgers starts in 1967, but is missing 2010.
Posted by: Mike Hauber

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 18/02/2010 15:15

Also interesting is GISS has released the January data. A global map shows a significant cool belt through USA/Europe/North Asia. There is another cool belt through the Southern Ocean, which is nearly as strong as the NH cool belt in the Pacific and Atlantic but not as strong as the NH cool belt over land.



Regional cooling can also be seen on a trend map from 1980 to 2009. The cooling areas in the Pacific correspond to the la nina/cool PDO pattern, and the PDO index peaked in the early 80s, and has been on a cooling trend since.

Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 18/02/2010 20:12

Only after legal action was threatened in the highest courts the has GISS / NASA released their files and e-mails some two years after a FOI request was submitted.
From first scans of the available information that has been released plus more later dated information still to come under another FOI claim.
It seems as many skeptics have long suspected, that the corruption of the data, the incompetence and the shonky alarmist conspiracy at GISS is just as bad as at CRU.

From "Pajamas Media"

Climategate 2.0 — The NASA Files: U.S. Climate Science as Corrupt as CRU

It now looks like any climate and station data that is derived from CRU, GISS and USHCN sources can no longer be regarded as having any veracity or any real relationship to the real state of the global and national climates upon which the entire alarmist propaganda on the global warming / climate change swindle is based.
And the Russians have been saying this for years!

There are going to be a very large number of climate, biological, earth sciences and etc researchers who have based all of their work and papers on the data from CRU and GISS who will realise in the near future that all their work is probably not worth the paper it is written on.
I suspect that the real backlash is still to come and science of every sort will be caught up in savage reprisals internally and through massive reductions in funding from a whole raft of weasley and now increasingly angry politicians who are going to be the ones who really feel and experience the savage anger of their duped voting public.
An easy ride for any new politicians who may now come to power as the present group of incompetents of all persuasions are disposed of as national debts are now so large and increasing that science which has indulged in massive scams and conspiracies to try and achieve an agenda that remakes all of society in their image will be seen as an easy target to reduce expenditure and that will be an easy sell to the most of the public, particularly the American public after these latest scams are fully revealed.

A new generation of politicians will hammer science of every type and the knives will really be out for the relatively small bunch of alarmist science advocates and creators of this whole massive global warming scam.
Plus quite likely a whole raft of alarmist and advocate warmist environmental outfits might just find themselves significantly short of funds as the massive taxpayer funded government handouts are cut off.

Arnost, I think you are again right after all!
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 19/02/2010 06:40

The winter of global warming

The last few months have been cruel and wintry for global-warming true believers. The long storm began in November, when a leak of e-mails from Britain's University of East Anglia Climate Research Unit revealed that key global-warming scientists tried to stifle dissent, politicize peer-review, which led to revelations that the researchers had dumped much of the raw data used to bolster the alarmist argument.
Then came the news that that the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change 2007 report - you know, the one that reported that man-made global warming was "unequivocal" - wrongly predicted that it was likely Himalayan glaciers would disappear by 2035, based not on peer-reviewed research, but on an article in a popular magazine. Oh, and it turns out that the IPCC was wrong in reporting that 55 percent of The Netherlands is below sea level.

Last week, Phil Jones, the unit's director at the time of the e-mail leak, answered tough questions posed by the BBC in an interview, during which he admitted that there has been no statistically significant warming of the planet since 1995. Jones also rejected Al Gore's mantra when he said he did not believe that "the vast majority of climate scientists think" the debate over climate change is over.

Like the Wicked Witch of Oz, the global-warming machine is melting into a wretched puddle.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/02/17/EDCV1C2BNJ.DTL
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 19/02/2010 08:27

In fact, as farmers in the US deal with the consequences of reduced snowpack, and the public deal with the hysteria and lying on both sides, a more sober and deliberate appreciation of the science may at last begin.

The news stories here are almost exclusively framed in marketing terms, and seriously hyped. On both sides. However the issues will not go away, and I'm looking forward, perhaps over optimistically, to the public demanding a proper explanation for the relationship between natural variability and the sudden addition of lots of fossil released carbon, as well as synthetics never previously seen in the natural world.
Posted by: Locke

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 19/02/2010 08:51

Anyone noticed that a number of the major climate change sceptic sites seem to be down at the moment. I cant get into WUWT, The Air Vent or Climate Audit whilst of course the rabid AGW site "Real Climate" still seems accessible.

I wonder if the sceptic sites have been hacked/attacked. It just seems strange to me that the 3 main ones I look at are all down at the same time.
Posted by: Locke

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 19/02/2010 14:35

NVM they appear to be back online now. (perhaps a moderator can delete my previous post and this one)
Posted by: Arnost

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 19/02/2010 15:50

Ben:
Quote:
In fact, as farmers in the US deal with the consequences of reduced snowpack


This paper assesses North American snow extent over the last century Frei et al 1999. Where "Historical fluctuations of North American snow extent from November through March are reconstructed back to 1900 using a combination of satellite and station observations."

And kinda suggests your statement above can be categorised as an example of media (as you quaintly put it) "hysteria and lying"... wink


(i.e. February snow extent over the last century - other months show similar)

Posted by: Arnost

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 19/02/2010 16:07

Simmo:

You in deep doo-doo man! LOL crazy

Quote:
Turfgrass management can create more greenhouse gas than plants remove from atmosphere


linky poke
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 19/02/2010 20:02

I suggested this mechanism for cloud formation in this forum a couple of years ago.

The Enigma Of Biological Ice Nucleators
Posted by: Ben Sandilands

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 19/02/2010 20:04

Arnost,

I will send you the document if you wish. It's about 6MB, the publication is totally uninvolved with the climate debate, and the survey is of February snowpack which is the critical measure for farmers planning their spring plantings.

There is no avoiding the readings, their reason, or their use, which in itself is not related to people defending or questioning various positions. It is about facts that affect businesses.

Had this been a really good winter the subscribers to this service, whatever their private views, would be looking at a much better growing season.
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 19/02/2010 21:18

Thanks for that chuckle Arnost, Giggle, but there are lots of ways to fertilise anything, I.E. compost, worm castings, green waste, dead carcases, sludge and also manures. The irony here is this group of people in the story have no doubt been the recipient of some sort of grant to research their findings, and I would love to get one of these grants to prove them wrong, but I am a practising scientist in the field, not a qualified scientist, qualified turf manager yes, one who knows the written system, but evaluates real systems, and tries to understand and test the method of the natural system.
The story only appears to allude to synthetic fertilizers, natural fert has other issues such as plant and soil degradation because of grazing, and of course the dreaded methane, so their no good either, but for crying out aloud, dinosaurs ate and shat also. The human race can't win either way with the CO2 zealots.. But I suppose we could replace real turf with synthetic, use pretend trees, concrete all that need to be grey, just to make it interesting, cover the ground with pebbles or rock, and play golf, cricket and on astroturf. What a joke!!!


http://wc.pima.edu/~bfiero/tucsonecology/plants/plants_photosynthesis.htm
Posted by: Vlasta

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 21/02/2010 01:35

Not much new about this article we wouldnt know about , the significance is , it was posted in The Washington Times !! That reaches far more millions of people than sceptics sites.

Next resignation is expected from IPCC chairman , but that the world govermnents cant afford . They want a return on "investment" into "global warming " other words tax on it.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010...home_editorials
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 21/02/2010 12:56

What does Average Temperature Mean?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OjPJnEtfUE
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 21/02/2010 13:05

MAIL ON SUNDAY COMMENT: The professor’s amazing climate change retreat

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/articl...l#ixzz0g8Fm2VBo
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 23/02/2010 21:39

New Climate Agency Head Tried to Suppress Data, Critics Charge

Thomas Karl, the head of Obama's new Climate Change office has been criticized for trying to suppress contradictory scientific data on climate change.

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/02/2...test=latestnews
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 24/02/2010 07:56

IPCC Corruption Included Ignoring Facts and Science

Phil Jones, disgraced and dismissed Director of the Climatic Research Unit (CRU), granted BBC reporter Roger Harrabin an interview. Why Harrabin? His reporting has shown bias on all the IPCC and CRU activities. Leaked emails showed the CRU gang used friends in the BBC and that apparently continues. Prevarication, evasion, half-truths continue in Phil Jones’ answers. Despite this there are stunning admissions from Jones. “There is a tendency in the IPCC reports to leave out inconvenient findings, especially in the part(s) most likely to be read by policy makers.”

It’s a deliberate strategy not just a tendency and not only in the Summary for Policymakers (SPM). Many major factors that create weather and can trigger change are ignored in the Scientific Report and computer models. A long report is necessary to itemize problems and what is omitted. The need to ‘prove’ CO2 was the primary culprit was the driving force behind all actions and it peaked in the 2007 Report.

http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/20029
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 24/02/2010 08:24

World may not be warming, say scientists

The United Nations climate panel faces a new challenge with scientists casting doubt on its claim that global temperatures are rising inexorably because of human pollution.

In its last assessment the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) said the evidence that the world was warming was “unequivocal”.

It warned that greenhouse gases had already heated the world by 0.7C and that there could be 5C-6C more warming by 2100, with devastating impacts on humanity and wildlife. However, new research, including work by British scientists, is casting doubt on such claims. Some even suggest the world may not be warming much at all.

“The temperature records cannot be relied on as indicators of global change,” said John Christy, professor of atmospheric science at the University of Alabama in Huntsville, a former lead author on the IPCC.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article7026317.ece
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 24/02/2010 21:59

Bernie Sanders: Climate Change Skeptics Like Those Who Downplayed Nazism

Independent Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders said Tuesday that people who do not take the threat of climate change seriously remind him of those who downplayed the growing threat of fascism and Nazism in the 1930s.

The climate change debate "reminds me in some ways of the debate taking place in this country and around the world in the late 1930s," Sanders said during a Senate hearing on the Environmental Protection Agency's 2011 budget, which you can watch here. (The comments come at the 103rd minute.)

He continued: "And during that period with Nazism and fascism growing -- a real danger to the United States and Democratic countries all over the world -- there were people in this Congress, in the British parliament saying, 'don't worry! Hitler is not real! It'll disappear! We don't have to be prepared to take it on.'"

Asked about the comments, Sanders Communications Director Michael Briggs told Hotsheet that the senator, who believes climate change is real, "was comparing [climate change skeptics] to people in this country who were isolationists who didn't think we needed to confront the threat."

Sanders took heat from Republican Sen. Jim Inhofe of Oklahoma, the Senate's leading climate change skeptic, earlier in the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee hearing. Inhofe said "I know the senator from Vermont wants so badly to believe that the science on climate change is settled but it's not," according to Politico.

Inhofe is pressing for a reappraisal of the government's position on climate change following revelations of errors in reports from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (deemed "trivial" by Sanders) as well as the so-called "Climategate" controversy. He wants an investigation into what he calls "the greatest scientific scandal of our generation," complete with testimony from former Vice President Al Gore

http://www.cbsnews.com/8601-503544_162-6236161-0.html?assetTypeId=41&tag=contentMain;contentBody
Posted by: Keith

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 26/02/2010 14:19

The TV media are at it again..must be the ratings season starting up.

2 climate movies in 2 days. I've just watched 'Ice' which is pretty terrible in terms of the plot (and also the weather; most of the northern hemisphere is uninhabitable, the sea freezes over and there are thunderstorms when it's minus 60°F and falling, highly unlikely in my view) but can't be as bad as 'The Day after Tomorrow' which is on Channel 7 tomorrow night.

The former had a cynical take on the use of the word 'consensus', which was perhaps the funniest thing in the whole show, depending on one's view of the whole thing. But it is Hollywood, of course.
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 26/02/2010 21:49

New Global Warming Data Reveals Accurate “Hockey Stick” Graph

Ah! Oh!
Posted by: Blizzard

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 27/02/2010 07:46

Haven't looked at it much yet but just for the record:

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/comput...00226-p92h.html
Posted by: adon

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 27/02/2010 08:52

Had a nice little cell move throught home about 3am, Not much rain in it but heaps of lightning
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 28/02/2010 07:25

You Can Call Him Al ... But Al Won't Call You Back

Al Gore won a Nobel Prize and an Oscar for his film, An Inconvenient Truth. But in the last three months, as global warming has gone from a scientific near-certitude to the subject of satire, Gore -- the public face of global warming -- has been silent on the topic.

The former vice president apparently finds it inconvenient even to answer calls to testify before the U.S. Senate. You can call him Al . . . but he won't call back.

On Tuesday, Oklahoma Sen. James Inhofe -- a prominent skeptic of global warming theory and the Republican leader of the Senate's Environment and Public Works Committee -- issued a request for Gore to come testify on global warming. In an interview with FoxNews.com, Inhofe said he wants Gore to appear because "it will be interesting to ask him on what science he based his movie," a film the senator considers "science fiction."

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/02/26/inconvenient-truth-for-al-gore/?test=latestnews#
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 28/02/2010 07:32

U.S. Climate Data Compromised by Sensors' Proximity to Heat Sources, Critics Say

A critical cog in the machinery that drives the theory of global warming is a small white box not too far from where you live. Inside the box sits a thermometer that tracks the local temperature, which in turn becomes part of a data trail for the monitoring of climate change on Earth.

But there's a problem: Nearly every single weather station the U.S. government uses to measure the country's surface temperature may be compromised. Sensors that are supposed to be in empty clearings are instead exposed to crackling electronics and other unlikely sources of heat, from exhaust pipes and trash-burning barrels to chimneys and human graves.

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/02/26/climate-data-compromised-by-heat-sources/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%253A+foxnews%252Fscitech+%2528Text+-+SciTech%2529
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 28/02/2010 09:45

20 Ethical Questions the Press Should Ask Opponents of Climate Change Policies

his post identifies 20 questions that the press has failed to ask opponents of proposed U.S. climate change policies and that should be asked if climate change raises civilization-challenging ethical issues.

To understand why these questions should be asked, it is first necessary to review the kinds of arguments that have usually been made in opposition to U.S. climate change policies, programs and legislation and why these arguments fail to deal with the profound ethical questions raised by the threat of human-induced climate change.

http://solveclimate.com/blog/20100225/20...change-policies
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/03/2010 19:32

Jacquelyn Gill on rapid climate change 13,000 years ago

Jacquelyn Gill is a PhD candidate at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. She’s been researching a period of rapid cooling that occurred about 13,000 years ago. Gill said that global temperatures took an extreme and sudden dip, just as the world was coming out of an ice age. She spoke with EarthSky at a science meeting in late 2009.

http://www.earthsky.org/interviewpost/earth/jacquelyn-gill-on-rapid-climate-change-13000-years-ago
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/03/2010 19:55

Gore: In Fact, Snow Is Proof Of Climate Change

"The heavy snowfalls this month have been used as fodder for ridicule by those who argue that global warming is a myth, yet scientists have long pointed out that warmer global temperatures have been increasing the rate of evaporation from the oceans, putting significantly more moisture into the atmosphere — thus causing heavier downfalls of both rain and snow in particular regions, including the Northeastern United States," he wrote. "Just as it’s important not to miss the forest for the trees, neither should we miss the climate for the snowstorm."

http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2010/03/gore_in_fact_snow_is_proof_of.html
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 01/03/2010 20:02

Please Sign Petition to Strip Al Gore and The UN IPCC of Their Nobel Prize
and Award It Instead to The Much More Deserving Irena Sendler


Al Gore and The United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (UN IPCC) shared a Nobel Peace Prize
in 2007. Since receiving the award, a UK court has ruled that An Inconvenient Truth, the work for which Al Gore
received his half of the prize, contained nine factual errors.

Recently, it was discovered that the UN IPCC 2007 Report, the work for which the IPCC received its half of the 2007
Nobel Peace Prize, contained false information regarding the risk of glacier melt, species extinction, sea-level rise
and natural disaster in an effort to frighten the public and goad politicians into taking action. By signing this petition,
you are sending a clear message that you wish for Al Gore and the UN IPCC to be stripped of their 2007 award.

In signing, you are also asking that the 2007 prize to Irena Sendler who risked her life daily during WWII to
ultimately rescue more than 2,500 Jewish children from the Nazis. Irena Sendler was among those up for
the Prize in 2007 that the much less deserving Gore and IPCC won for political reasons.

http://www.stripgore.com/
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 03/03/2010 13:51

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/03/02/2001-2010-was-the-snowiest-decade-on-record/#more-16908
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 04/03/2010 06:51

Questions and answers on climate change
READERS: Ask us your questions about climate science at Trib Nation. We'll try to answer some of them in print.

Is there scientific consensus?

The 2007 report from the IPCC, a group of scientists from 113 countries who studied the peer-reviewed research, concluded they are 90 percent confident that global warming is caused by humans. Scientific research does not claim anything with absolute certainty, but this is about as close as it gets.

The conclusion that humans are causing global warming also is shared by the National Academy of Sciences, the nation's leading scientific advisory body, and similar academies in 18 other countries.

The level of confidence has increased over the years as research improved. A 1975 report from the National Academy concluded "we do not have a good quantitative understanding of our climate machine and what determines its course. Without the fundamental understanding, it does not seem possible to predict climate."


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-met-0228-climate-science-questions-20100302,0,2670932.story
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 04/03/2010 06:58

Al Gore Returns
The climate change crusader breaks his silence in a New York Times op-ed piece. But do his arguments make sense?

It's not clear what Al Gore has been doing the past three months since the Climate-gate scientific fraud scandal broke--perhaps doing a bit of inter-planetary travel or hanging out in a remote cave discussing how to deindustrialize America with his fellow global warming alarmist, Usama bin Laden. No matter, Gore has returned to his global warming crusade with an op-ed in the Sunday New York Times. And what an op-ed! "We can't wish away climate change" is nearly 1900 words, or about three times the length of most op-eds. Unfortunately, the leader of the forces of darkness hasn't learned a thing during his mysterious sabbatical.



http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/03/0...ate-phil-jones/
Posted by: Seina

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 04/03/2010 12:06

“Combined with recent 'scandals' - as magnified by sceptics in the blogosphere and the popular media - concerning the University of East Anglia's CRU, and the IPCC 4th Assessment Report, and the failure of Copenhagen, it's the steadily increasing strength of sceptical views out there in the community that has ensured that ABC producers give more airtime than they might have a few years ago to sceptical views on climate change.
That is as it should be. Climate change is a vast topic, with aspects that are political, and moral, and even religious, as well as scientific. Principal relevant views clearly include those that hold that the science isn't settled, and even that global warming alarmism is a global green conspiracy.
But if I were running a science show on the ABC, I might well feel that what should guide me is the science, not shifts in popular opinion. And so far, for all the sound and fury, the vast majority of climate scientists remain convinced that the evidence for anthropogenic warming is getting stronger, not weaker, every year.
Why they think that, surely, is the really important scientific story. Isn't it? Or should I give time to dissident scientists out of all proportion to the weight of their views within the scientific community, because they reflect views held by a substantial proportion of non-scientists among my listeners?”

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/03/04/2835977.htm?site=thedrum
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 04/03/2010 17:40

That is your opinion Nazdeck, it is not what we are hearing around the globe! It sure is getting weaker from all I have heard.
Maybe the models complete failure to forecast anywhere near correctly has something to do with it, as that was all the case they had really!
There is no proven positive feedback overiding negative feedback ever proven to exist as yet, and that is what the models are based on!
Posted by: Seina

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 04/03/2010 19:06

That's the opinion of the author of that article, not mine smile. It's an interesting article from what I read, and this thread seems the right place to post it.
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 04/03/2010 20:47

OK fair enough Naz I did not see the " " marks, and thought it was you speaking sorry! LOL!
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 05/03/2010 07:22

And yet more evidence of the planet doing its own thing!!! We humans are such arrogant pricks thinking we control the big blue ball.


Scientists discover huge seabed methane leak

Scientists have discovered the Arctic ocean seabed is leaking huge amounts of methane into the atmosphere.

The research published in the journal Science shows the permafrost under the East Siberian Arctic shelf, which was thought to be a barrier sealing methane, is perforated.

Scientists from the Russian Academy of Sciences say more methane will be released if the permafrost is further destabilised.

CSIRO spokesman Pep Canadell says the study identifies a possibly overlooked source of methane in the atmosphere.

"Maybe before we were wrongly attributing it to cows or rice paddies or whatever, all the major sources of methane we have," Mr Canadell said.

"And now when we measure fluctuations in the atmospheric methane concentration we can more properly attribute where these sources are coming from."

He says the study provides, for the first time, an estimate of the contribution of the Arctic to overall methane emissions.

Current average methane concentrations in the Arctic are the highest in 400,000 years.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/03/05/2837124.htm?section=justin
Posted by: Mike Hauber

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 05/03/2010 12:22

Interesting NYT article from 1969

Interesting to compare what was considered typical ice extent in 1969 with what is considered average today based on 1980-2000 satellite readings. And which some deniers consider to be unusually high compared to earlier this century.

Interesting to note that in 1969 pack ice around Iceland was considered a sign of cool Arctic conditions, and absence was considered warm Arctic conditions. There has been no pack ice around Iceland since 1980.

Interesting to note that in 1969 climate scientists had an idea that Co2 may have been contributing to a warming trend. Some back then many believed that other factors such as solar where more powerful and would cause the recent cooling trend to continue. They were wrong.

Interesting to note that the majority view of the climate experts back then was that the Arctic was in no danger of imminent melt down. The dissenting opinion was that it was. This was based on a cherry picked data set which showed Arctic thinning which the experts considered unreliable. And the majority view of the climate experts was of course the correct view.
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 05/03/2010 12:52

http://www.arctic-warming.com/how-was-the-warming-discussed-in-the-1930s.php

http://mclean.ch/climate/Arctic_1920_40.htm

http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/changing-artic_monthly_wx_review.png

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/03/16/yo...-icebergs-melt/
Posted by: Mike Hauber

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 05/03/2010 14:36

From the fourth article BD posted:

'Ice conditions were exceptional. In fact so little ice has never before been noted. The expedition al but established a record, sailing as far north as 81 deg 29 ' in ice-free water'.

As of today, close to Arctic sea ice maximum, Clear water exists noticeably further north of Svalbard. The northern edge of Svalbard is just north of 80 deg. I would estimate open water to be getting fairly close to 81 degrees north.

The sea ice minimum in 2009 on the Atlantic side was quite similar to most other years this decade and saw open water well north of 82 degs, and at my estimate peaking somewhere between 83 and 84. If you consider the last decade as normal, then 'normal' conditions now have open water significantly further north of where open water was considered exceptional in 1922, and almost as far north even during the maximum ice extent in winter.
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 05/03/2010 16:03

But its all happened before and life still thrives on Mike. The latest floods are no doubt due to AGW but they have happened before also. This scam must end and soon.
Posted by: Mike Hauber

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 05/03/2010 16:54

So your argument is that since the climate has warmed before, then AGW must be a scam?

Thats like the arsonist arguing 'bushfires have happened before. Therefore I was framed'.
Posted by: Arnost

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 05/03/2010 19:11

Mike, it's all happened before and life still thrives on...

My advice is don't burn any bridges - this climategate thing has not yet played out and there are still a couple of onion rings to be peeled back...
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 05/03/2010 19:25

? bit criptic there Arnost ?
Posted by: Arnost

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 05/03/2010 22:02

Possibly cryptic... But there is a subtext that can be read.

We have "climate science" principals all of a sudden expressing doubt vis-a-vis the current warming hiatus, the MWP, and and and. We have CRU about to "re-do" the temp records. We have "climate science" principals admitting that the peer review process is broken. And we now have an upsurge in "doubters" - or so the polls tell us.

There are chinks in the "consensus".

If you would have told me a year ago that we would now have Kevin Trenberth on record saying that "it's a travesty that we can't explain the lack of warming" or that Phil Jones would admit that the MWP may have been as warm as current temps... I would not have believed.


And there are still a few skeletons in there - and the biggie is fudging of the 20th C temperature record. Now - this is just my gut feel - but if you look at the current 20th C temperature record - and you truncate it in the early / mid 70's - ask yourself WHY was there a panic about cooling and a new ice-age then? There's something rotten in there waiting to fall out...

So:

The main-stream media has had a kick in the backside as it has lagged the blogs in significant "breaking news" - and it just can not afford to lose the trust of the people. Watch this space - they know they are loosing credibility and may want to make it back up and so (typically over reacting) will start digging...

And once scientists realise that their hard work in meteorology and climatology is based on junk - they will cry out and do their own digging...

And once the politicians get on the wrong side of public opinion - scorched earth for climate science... There will be lots of ugly finger pointing.
Posted by: Seina

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 06/03/2010 12:58

Originally Posted By: Bucketing Down(BD)
OK fair enough Naz I did not see the " " marks, and thought it was you speaking sorry! LOL!

I will say though, in my own words, that there does seem to be a degree of reasonability to the comment I presented. And while I am not jumping on any kind of band wagon, I would be willing to acknowledge that degree of reasonability – I’m rather hesitant when it comes to adopting a paradigm without having come to understand what might be considered an adequate number of factors which demonstrate the reasonability of the paradigm.
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 06/03/2010 22:20

If you care to go back a few pages Mike, I asked you where the proof of AGW was and you replied "IPCC" are you willing to stand by your reply???
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 07/03/2010 14:50

Team Green Loves Scaring Children

I'd love to see the people behind this film aimed at frightening little kids be held liable in a court of law for the pyschological damage they're doing to children.

http://www.climategatecountryclub.com/video/team-green-loves-scaring
http://www.climategatecountryclub.com/
Posted by: Mike Hauber

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 08/03/2010 10:39

Originally Posted By: Arnost

And there are still a few skeletons in there - and the biggie is fudging of the 20th C temperature record. Now - this is just my gut feel - but if you look at the current 20th C temperature record - and you truncate it in the early / mid 70's - ask yourself WHY was there a panic about cooling and a new ice-age then? There's something rotten in there waiting to fall out...


Go to GISS mapping page (link) and make a map of temperature trends as per the current GISS record for 1940 to 1970. Most of the NH land was cooling over this period.
Posted by: Arnost

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 08/03/2010 16:22

Mike,

Quote:
Most of the NH land was cooling over this period


The current records show that the southern hemisphere was warming over this period, and though the northern hemisphere went down by about 0.2C over 30 years it was to temps still higher than those in the early part of the century.



So why did people panic?
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 08/03/2010 19:08

Abrupt Climate Change Could be Brought About by Leaking Methane

Significant amounts of methane found to be leaking from permafrost in the East Siberian Arctic Shelf could push the world closer to the tipping points for abrupt climate changes. According to a study published in Science journal this week, about 7-8 million tonnes of methane are being released from the Shelf each year – about the same amount that the entire world’s oceans release annually. Methane is a potent greenhouse gas considered to be one of the largest contributors to climate change.

The fear is that should these leaks turn out to be new, due to rising temperatures, it’s possible that considerably larger pockets of methane will be released from thawing permafrost. Further studies will be necessary to determine whether the methane leaks are due to global warming.

http://www.azocleantech.com/Details.asp?newsID=8995
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 12/03/2010 08:28

Questions about research slow climate change efforts

STATE COLLEGE, Pa. — The violent threats are not what bother Michael Mann the most. He's used to them.

Instead, it's the fact that his life's work — the effort to stop global warming — has been under siege since last fall. That's when Mann suddenly found himself in the middle of the so-called "climategate" scandal, in which more than 1,000 e-mails among top climate scientists — including Mann — were obtained illegally by hackers and published on the Internet.

The e-mails showed some of the scientists sharing doubts about just how fast the Earth's temperature is rising, questioning the work of other researchers and refusing to share data with the public. Critics, including Sen. James Inhofe, R-Okla., have seized on the e-mails as proof that Mann and his colleagues deliberately exaggerated the scientific case behind global warming.

In a rare extended interview, Mann acknowledges "minor" errors but says he has been bewildered by the criticism — including a deluge of correspondence sent to his Pennsylvania State University office that, he says, occasionally has turned ugly.

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/environment/2010-03-10-warming_N.htm
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 12/03/2010 14:06

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/mar/11/americans-climate-change-threat
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 12/03/2010 14:08



http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/03/11/a-uhi-tale-of-two-cities/#more-17253
Posted by: Mike Hauber

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 12/03/2010 16:47

What Watts neglects to mention is that while the raw data has a 3 degree temperature rise for Fort Collins, after adjustments are made the temperature rise is more like 1 degree.

Comparing to a few nearby rural stations, shows a temperature rise of 0.5 to 1 degree. Looks like the UHI adjustments in GISS for this station are doing exactly what they are expected to do.
Posted by: Vlasta

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 12/03/2010 20:09

2009 was in Australia +0.9C Would be interesting as others see it . Is it proof of warming ? I dont think so, as BOM has no adjustments. Whith ever increasing UHI that is expected and I think +0.9 falls in line , that there is no warming.
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 12/03/2010 21:05

We are seeing the population increase and temperature increase,as anticipated...which some foolishly lately stating does not exist...that is the point here Mike!
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 12/03/2010 21:09

More IPCC errors...Brazillian Rain Forests study: Finds forests remarkably resistant to drought years!
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2010-03/bumc-nsd031110.php
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 14/03/2010 11:03

No matter what happens it is all a result of climate change and of course computer models...and in reality, lets's call a spade(global warming) a spade(global warming), otherwise the whole article is pointless...well, it is pointless anyway really!

"This year's record snow storms on the East Coast and the Coachella Valley's own wet winter are examples of ongoing climate change, experts said Friday at the Climate Change and the California Desert Conference in Yucca Valley.Weather is variation within climate,” said Cameron Barrows, a researcher at UC Riverside's Center for Conservation Biology. “That greater sense of variability is what we should expect” as a result of climate change.

About 200 people turned out for the conference at the Yucca Valley Community Center, where confronting growing public skepticism about climate change was a major theme.

The conference was sponsored by the National Parks Conservation Association and Defenders of Wildlife.

Calling the valley and its surrounding area “ground zero” for climate change, Barrows predicted the region could have some of the widest and most erratic swings in temperature and precipitation in the nation.

“We'll have years that are wetter than we've ever seen mixed with years where it'll be dryer than we've ever seen,” he said.

Topics at the conference ranged from impacts of climate change on desert animals and water systems to Palm Desert's energy loan program.

An overview of the conference:

Desert tortoise
Barrows reviewed his research on the potential impact of climate change on the desert tortoise and other species at Joshua Tree National Park, showing the likelihood of shrinking habitats as temperatures rise and the amount of rain decreases.

Using computer models, he found that with a three-degree or four-degree overall increase in temperature and a decrease in rain of two to three inches a year, the desert tortoise might lose 50 percent of its habitat at the park."
http://www.mydesert.com/article/20100313/NEWS07/3130311/1026/news12
Posted by: Arnost

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 14/03/2010 22:02

Contributions of Stratospheric Water Vapor to Decadal Changes in the Rate of Global Warming
Susan Solomon, et al Science 5 March 2010: Vol. 327. no. 5970, pp. 1219 - 1223

Quote:
Stratospheric water vapor concentrations decreased by about 10% after the year 2000. Here we show that this acted to slow the rate of increase in global surface temperature over 2000–2009 by about 25% compared to that which would have occurred due only to carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases. More limited data suggest that stratospheric water vapor probably increased between 1980 and 2000, which would have enhanced the decadal rate of surface warming during the 1990s by about 30% as compared to estimates neglecting this change. These findings show that stratospheric water vapor is an important driver of decadal global surface climate change.


And some discussion on it.
Posted by: Shultzy

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 15/03/2010 08:12

Originally Posted By: Bucketing Down(BD)

Desert tortoise
Barrows reviewed his research on the potential impact of climate change on the desert tortoise and other species at Joshua Tree National Park, showing the likelihood of shrinking habitats as temperatures rise and the amount of rain decreases.

Using computer models, he found that with a three-degree or four-degree overall increase in temperature and a decrease in rain of two to three inches a year, the desert tortoise might lose 50 percent of its habitat at the park."
http://www.mydesert.com/article/20100313/NEWS07/3130311/1026/news12


When someone says something about record snowfalls, climate change scientists automatically go down the difference between weather and climate, and natural variaitons happen track. Yet, as quoted above, they always go back to rising temperatures... ^^
Posted by: Mike Hauber

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 15/03/2010 11:27

Originally Posted By: Bucketing Down(BD)
We are seeing the population increase and temperature increase,as anticipated...which some foolishly lately stating does not exist...that is the point here Mike!


Those foolishly stating UHI does not exist are deniers saying 'AGWers say UHI does not exist, this proves that it does therefore AGW is wrong'.

GISS temperature corrects for UHI as they know its an issue.
Posted by: Mike Hauber

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 15/03/2010 11:29

Originally Posted By: Bucketing Down(BD)
More IPCC errors...Brazillian Rain Forests study: Finds forests remarkably resistant to drought years!
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2010-03/bumc-nsd031110.php


And more on this topic (link)

In particular the research who found that the Amazon rainforest held up quite well to a single year of drought in 2005, and pointed out that IPCC projections of Amazon forest are based on flawed methodology, also stated:

'I believe that the Amazon forests are vulnerable to rainfall reduction, and high temperatures, and this would lead to what some studies call the Amazon die back'
Posted by: Mike Hauber

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 15/03/2010 11:33

Originally Posted By: Bucketing Down(BD)
[b]No matter what happens it is all a result of climate change and of course computer models[/b


Well actually if there is more extreme weather (record high and low rainfall years), it matches the claims in that article. If there are no or few record high or low rainfall years then that will not match the predictions of that article.

At the same time you yourself predict cooling 'some time' in the future. But no matter how much it continues to warm since you and others made such a prediction, you still believe that 'some time' in the future the cooling will arrive...
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 15/03/2010 11:39

Sorry not right Mike, AGW'ers were saying China City effect of warming, and other city effects of warming in other areas of the globe to population increases did not exist! I read it in several AGW'ers articles...Watts was on about it also, as they rubbished his city warming effects, also wrongly!
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 15/03/2010 11:41

the lag of solar and temp is from 0 to 15 years, still a long way to go yet, and the flatness minus El Nino warming continues anyway!
I am writing another article on it soon.
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 15/03/2010 11:46

I have already shown how the CO2 and Rainfall do not appear to be in anyway correlated, as many state in the Murray Darling Basin!
WHAT IS THE MAIN FACTOR CONTROLLING THE MURRAY DARLING BASIN SYSTEM RAINFALL (SOUTH QLD-NEW SOUTH WALES-VICTORIA & SOUTH AUSTRALIA AREAS)?....... AND WHAT DOES THE FUTURE HOLD FOR THE RAINFALL OF THE VAST MURRAY DARLING BASIN SYSTEM?
http://www.holtonweather.com/article2.htm
Posted by: aerology

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 15/03/2010 15:36

I posted this link in two other places on this board but in case some of you have missed it

http://research.aerology.com/aerology-analog-weather-forecasting-method/

I started a new set of pages on my web site to post research I have been doing, and the hypothesis I base my long term analog weather forecast upon. Adding in some of the ideas I have come across in the past couple years and finally got together into one long /rant er Comment. I have dropped it into a couple of the comments sections on WUWT and have received some positive feedback, thus encouraged, on I go, let me know if you have any feedback to add or detract from what I am proposing.

Respectfully Richard Holle
Posted by: Seina

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 15/03/2010 21:17

Weather bureau backs climate change verdict.

Which I would think says a lot about the true state of climate science.
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 15/03/2010 22:15

The climate industry wall of money

Somehow the tables have turned. For all the smears of big money funding the “deniers”, the numbers reveal that the sceptics are actually the true grassroots campaigners, while Greenpeace defends Wall St. How times have changed. Sceptics are fighting a billion dollar industry aligned with a trillion dollar trading scheme. Big Oil’s supposed evil influence has been vastly outdone by Big Government, and even those taxpayer billions are trumped by Big-Banking.

The big-money side of this debate has fostered a myth that sceptics write what they write because they are funded by oil profits. They say, follow the money? So I did and it’s chilling. Greens and environmentalists need to be aware each time they smear with an ad hominem attack they are unwittingly helping giant finance houses.

http://joannenova.com.au/2010/03/the-climate-industry-wall-of-money/
Posted by: SBT

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 16/03/2010 00:18

Hmm how come I haven't been paid then?

Oh thats right I'm expressing an opinion not doctrine.
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 16/03/2010 07:16

PETA Attacks Gore

I don't know about you, but I just love a good family fight, particularly when

it is between liberals. According to PETA, Al Gore has on more than one

occasion stated that the number one thing people can do to stop global

warming is to stop eating meat. Now this is going to come as a big surprise

to my fellow skeptics, but Al Gore, in this one isolated instance, isn't taking

his own advice. Not practicing what he preaches if you will. This could go

a long way to explaining why he flunked out of seminary school when he

was younger, but I digress. So angry are the people of PETA at Mr. Gore,

they've started a petition to let him know it. Here's the link, but please don't

sign it. By doing so, you'll be agreeing that anthropogenic global warming is

real and that not eating meat is a potential solution.


http://www.climategatecountryclub.com/forum/topics/peta-attacks-gore
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 16/03/2010 08:11

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/03/15/mc...-in/#more-17339
QLD professor accuses McIntyre of CRU break-in!?
Posted by: Blizzard

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 16/03/2010 17:46

Thought it might be worth putting this snow 'data base' in here for the Blue Mountains area, going back to the 1830s. You can't expect newspaper articles to be a comprehensive representation of snowfalls over the decades but it is indicative. Snow falls have reduced a lot over the last thirty years.

http://www.blackheathweather.com/bmsnowhistory1.html
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 16/03/2010 20:34

Blizz, tried to put on data base, but big lot back before 1959 and many zeros after that for lots of years including some years eg 1968, 1981, 1983, 1992, 1996,1998, etc, where I would have thought you would have had a snow day or more?
Posted by: Blizzard

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 17/03/2010 11:19

Yeah, fair enough BD. There are certainly snow days missing in that, including the May 28, 2000 fall, which was very good. Newspapers are not the best form of record but they are about all we have for the old days. Snowfall amounts have dropped right off up here since the late 80s with some nice but smaller falls since then.

If you have a scroll down on this link, you will see more details about falls in the 50s and 60s and more recent decades:

http://www.blackheathweather.com/pastfalls.html

Then go here for the last ten years:

http://www.blackheathweather.com/report.html
Posted by: Arnost

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 18/03/2010 18:24

Following on from a recent WUWT post - Frank Lansner did an update on his site... Well worth a read as it addresses why I asked the question a couple of pages ago: "Why did people panic?"

http://hidethedecline.eu/pages/posts/decline-temperature-decline-1940-78-the-cold-data-war-170.php


There is one study mentioned there - the Korshover data that is taken from 63 radiosonde stations around the globe to determine near surface temps... Possibly a study waiting to be re-done...?
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 22/03/2010 11:27

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/03/21/icelandic-fissure-eruptuon-triggers-worries/#more-17550
SPECY AND INTERESTING GEAR!
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 22/03/2010 22:20

Creationism, climate change and scientific denialism

Strange how one keeps coming across familiar people. Last week I was shocked to read Andrew Bolt’s article on the Global Atheist Convention (see Speakers true love of hatred). He wasn’t there and those of us that were recognised his article as full of distortions, misinformation and lies. Then I realised he is one of Australia’s most active climate change deniers (no, in his case not a sceptic – a denier). And now I find him quoted by the creationist/intelligent design (ID) Discovery Institute in a nasty little article attacking science (see Climategate: a Word of Advice to the Scientists).

http://sciblogs.co.nz/open-parachute/2010/03/22/creationism-climate-change-and-scientific-denialism/
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 22/03/2010 22:29

Leighton Steward: Great news for earth's ecosystems

Recent news has been all bad for the International Panel on Climate Change and the former gold standard for global temperatures at East Anglia University.

Leaders of the organizations have been less than forthright regarding these facts: "The climate science is not settled," that assumptions in models used to "predict" catastrophic future warming may have been wrong, that the rapidity of glacier loss was overstated by multiples of years (initially denied), that there has been a tendency to leave out inconvenient scientific data in IPCC's all-important summary for policymakers, that temperatures today are possibly not unprecedented, and that there has been no statistically significant global warming in the last 15 years.

These admissions, prompted by information generated from 3,000 internal e-mails at East Anglia's Climate Research Unit, have shaken the warming community to its roots (even the leader of Greenpeace of the United Kingdom is appalled).

There is, however, great news for planet Earth and the plant and animal kingdoms, including humanity. With these admissions that the data and conclusions may be suspect, scientists and policymakers should now realize that carbon dioxide may not be a significant cause of climate change and that the addition of CO2 to the atmosphere may be beneficial to Earth, as it already has been since the beginning of the industrial revolution around 1860.

Thousands of real field and laboratory experiments by the agricultural community indicate that Earth's plants have experienced an increased growth of about 12 percent and Earth's forest an increase of about 18 percent.

Read more at the Washington Examiner: http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinio...l#ixzz0iu6r6Dza


http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinio...s-88769742.html
Posted by: bd bucketingdown

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 24/03/2010 08:50

Eating less meat and dairy products won’t have major impact on global warming
SAN FRANCISCO, March 22, 2010 — Cutting back on consumption of meat and dairy products will not have a major impact in combating global warming — despite repeated claims that link diets rich in animal products to production of greenhouse gases. That’s the conclusion of a report presented here today at the 239th National Meeting of the American Chemical Society.

Air quality expert Frank Mitloehner, Ph.D., who made the presentation, said that giving cows and pigs a bum rap is not only scientifically inaccurate, but also distracts society from embracing effective solutions to global climate change. He noted that the notion is becoming deeply rooted in efforts to curb global warming, citing campaigns for “meatless Mondays” and a European campaign, called "Less Meat = Less Heat," launched late last year.


Reducing consumption of meat and dairy
products might not have a major impact in
combating global warming despite claims
that link diets rich in animal products to
production of greenhouse gases.
Credit: Wikimedia
(High-resolution version)
"We certainly can reduce our greenhouse-gas production, but not by consuming less meat and milk,” said Mitloehner, who is with the University of California-Davis. "Producing less meat and milk will only mean more hunger in poor countries."

The focus of confronting climate change, he said, should be on smarter farming, not less farming. "The developed world should focus on increasing efficient meat production in developing countries where growing populations need more nutritious food. In developing countries, we should adopt more efficient, Western-style farming practices to make more food with less greenhouse gas production,” Mitloehner said.

Developed countries should reduce use of oil and coal for electricity, heating and vehicle fuels. Transportation creates an estimated 26 percent of all greenhouse gas emissions in the U.S., whereas raising cattle and pigs for food accounts for about 3 percent, he said."
http://portal.acs.org/portal/acs/corg/co...ef-44896dbfa294
Posted by: BOM99

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 24/03/2010 11:21

What we need is Nuclear Power. Advanced new designs can burn the nuclear waste to almost completly inert ash and leave virtualy no waste at all.
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/scienceshow/stories/2010/2844447.htm

Or else Fusion using Deuterium. The oceans contain 1 part in 7000 Deuterium which would provide even more energy than Nuclear. All Countries would have equal access to unlimited power for millions of years.
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/scienceshow/stories/2010/2844460.htm

Both these developments are only a few years even month away from being production viable. After that using any fosil fuel for electricty should simply be outlawed. The solutions are already here, however the only problem is that big business will refuse to stop burning coal because they would loose their business, there simply is no other excuse.
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 25/03/2010 08:33

The money trail

Somehow the tables have turned. For all the smears of big money funding the "deniers", the numbers reveal that the sceptics are actually the true grassroots campaigners, while Greenpeace defends Wall St. How times have changed.

Sceptics are fighting a billion dollar industry aligned with a trillion dollar trading scheme. Big Oil's supposed evil influence has been vastly outdone by Big Government, and even those taxpayer billions are trumped by Big-Banking.

The big-money side of this debate has fostered a myth that sceptics write what they write because they are funded by oil profits. They say, follow the money? So I did and it's chilling. Greens and environmentalists need to be aware each time they smear with an ad hominem attack they are unwittingly helping giant finance houses.

FOLLOW THE MONEY
Money for Sceptics: Greenpeace has searched for funding for sceptics and found $23 million paid by Exxon over 10 years (which has stopped). Perhaps Greenpeace missed funding from other fossil fuel companies, but you can be sure that they searched. I wrote the Climate Money paper in July last year, and since then no one has claimed a larger figure. Big-Oil may well prefer it if emissions are not traded, but it's not make-or-break for them. If all fossil fuels are in effect "taxed", consumers will pay the tax anyhow, and past price rises in crude oil suggest consumers will not consume much less fuel, so profits won't actually fall that much.

But in the end, everyone spends more on carbon friendly initiatives than on sceptics-- even Exxon: (how about $100 million for Stanford's Global Climate and Energy Project, and $600 million for Biofuels research). Some will complain that Exxon is massive and their green commitment was a tiny part of their profits, but the point is, what they spent on sceptics was even less.


http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2835581.htm
Posted by: WelloMeteo

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 25/03/2010 19:56

Not really a news item, and maybe already noted somewhere else, but some forum members in Brisbane might be interested in attending this free seminar on Mar 30 presented by Rob Allan and Chris Gordon, The Met Office Hadley Centre, UK, on "'Atmospheric Circulation Reconstructions over the Earth’ (ACRE), a unique international project that will recover and reconstruct centuries of missing climate data from before record keeping began". More detail here
Posted by: Arnost

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 26/03/2010 12:35

"...a unique international project that will recover and reconstruct centuries of missing climate data from before record keeping began... " & "Provide a web-based interface that will store, allow free access to, and enable free visualisations of, the raw data, data images, meta data" - That sounds like a fantastic project.

I remember seeing this - and wondering what will come of it. I guess (hope?) that this will be a part of this.
Posted by: Blizzard

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 26/03/2010 13:52

Seems like the best spot to post this. I'm still working on a more extensive snow data base that a contributor to my site is kindly beavering away at, in the mean-time:

'In reviewing this data there were a large number of big events (30 cm+) in the Upper Blue Mountains in the period 1896-1931 ( so in 35 years there were 7 major snow events in total), while the period 1932-1965 (33 years) there were only 2 major events (1960 and 1965).'

In the last forty years since then, I am fairly sure, going off the data I have, that the biggest is 25cm in the 80s and nothing of real note since then.

Will post Mr NASA's fine data base as time permits.
Posted by: WelloMeteo

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 26/03/2010 20:02

Originally Posted By: Arnost
"...a unique international project that will recover and reconstruct centuries of missing climate data from before record keeping began... " & "Provide a web-based interface that will store, allow free access to, and enable free visualisations of, the raw data, data images, meta data" - That sounds like a fantastic project.

I remember seeing this - and wondering what will come of it. I guess (hope?) that this will be a part of this.


Sadly Arnost, I am a cynic, but yes, it would be nice to think that this kind of information would be a part of it. It won't be if it contradicts the hegemony though ... or if such information might endanger the profit lines of the corporates.
Posted by: Arnost

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 27/03/2010 00:20

LOL WM... I'm still an optimist! I believe in science - it is a glorious tool without peer in history (or at least the method is).

We know that human history is replete with self organising feedback loops - "bubbles" if you will. And like the witch hunting craze,



or the south seas or tulip "bubbles" in the past, or the most current housing bubble:



this current "bubble" is going through the same predictable phases. And as these feedback loops are driven by the rate of information exchange, they will now not take long to cycle through. (By the way, the last phase in Michael Shermer's witch hunting loop is: "the accusers become the accused" - so watch this space).

When it's all over, then maybe we can get to the real unadulturated science - where everything is open and we no longer have the "rock star" climate change activists running the show.

And stuff like this are just case studies in some future Masters programme:

http://bishophill.squarespace.com/blog/2010/3/24/more-peer-review-gatekeeping.html

http://bishophill.squarespace.com/blog/2010/3/26/false-alarm.html
Posted by: WelloMeteo

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 27/03/2010 12:07

Interesting models you put up – and yes, the accuser becoming the accused we have seen before - Al Gore is a good example, as well as the Greenpeace article posted above.

Anyway, the first model becomes more interesting when we give it a context – a Capitalist context. I believe in science too – but on its own, outside of that context. Unfortunately the focus of science, and what new knowledge emerges from it, is largely determined by government and corporate funding (pharmaceutical and energy conglomerates are a good example of the latter) – along with fear, it is the most efficient means of controlling knowledge, and that counts for both "sides" of the current climate change debate.

The 1st model becomes very interesting if we put the IPCC at the centre and fill in the other circles with more specific information and taking the Capitalist context into consideration. Don’t get me wrong – I think the Capitalist system is a good one, but it is flawed, and it doesn't complement science.

There was a reader comment on your second link that “no matter what happens, we will always have something to be alarmed about. Alarmism leads to fear, fear leads to money, money leads to power, power leads to the dark side” So very true …
Posted by: ROM

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 28/03/2010 10:28

The Russian viewpoint; from the Mail Online

Russia's top weatherman's blow to climat...LDEST on record
Posted by: Keith

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 29/03/2010 18:14

More madness. According to the TV news some people want the pending review of food labelling to include the effect of its manufacture on global warming.

It beggars belief.

Posted by: Keith

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 29/03/2010 21:28

Originally Posted By: Keith
....... the pending review of food labelling to include the effect of its manufacture on global warming.


Perhaps the following quote from a speech by (US) Rear Admiral Ben Morrell (1953) is apt in the light of the above and even more, in the light of the failings of human nature:

"I hold that our hope for continued progress ... lies in the improvement by the individual of his own moral stature so that he will know what is right and want to do it, voluntarily, not be granting, by votes or otherwise, ever-increasing power and dominion to social engineers to regulate and control our lives, our morals, and our property.

We get what we silently ask for.
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 30/03/2010 21:50

TV forecasters surprise skeptics on climate change

The debate over global warming has created predictable adversaries, pitting environmentalists against industrialists and coal-state Democrats against coastal liberals.

But it has also created tensions between two groups that might be expected to agree on the issue: climate scientists and meteorologists, especially those who serve as TV weather forecasters.

Climatologists, who study weather patterns over time, almost universally endorse the view that the earth is warming and that humans have contributed to climate change. There is less of a consensus among meteorologists, who predict short-term weather patterns.

Joe Bastardi, for example, a senior forecaster and meteorologist with AccuWeather, maintains that it is more likely that the planet is cooling, and he distrusts the data put forward by climate scientists as evidence for rising global temperatures.

http://www.statesman.com/news/nation/tv-forecasters-surprise-skeptics-on-climate-change-480922.html
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 30/03/2010 21:54

Koch Industries funds climate change deniers: Greenpeace

WASHINGTON — Koch Industries, a huge privately-owned US company dominated by oil and chemical interests, is plowing millions of dollars into campaigns to discredit climate science and clean energy policies, a report alleged Tuesday.

Between 2005 and 2008, the Kansas-based conglomerate that "most Americans have never heard of" spent nearly 25 million dollars to fund "organizations of the 'climate denial machine,'" environmental protection group Greenpeace said in the report.

Between 2006 and 2009, Koch Industries and the family that founded and still controls the conglomerate spent 37.9 million dollars on direct lobbying on oil and energy issues -- eclipsed only by oil majors Exxon and Chevron, who spent 87.8 million dollars and 50 million dollars, the report said.

"Although Koch intentionally stays out of the public eye, it is now playing a quiet but dominant role in a high-profile national policy debate on global warming," the report says.

Greenpeace published a list of 35 organizations and 21 lawmakers who have directly or indirectly received funds from Koch Industries, the company's affiliates, or foundations set up by the Koch family.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5j6UBV-TNcMO9trEK-2CB0FfYbOQw
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 07/04/2010 07:47

Scientists' use of computer models to predict climate change is under attack

And, depending on how much greenhouse gas emissions increase, the world's average temperature will rise between 2 and 11.5 degrees by 2100.

The computer models used to predict climate change are far more sophisticated than the ones that forecast the weather, elections or sporting results. They are multilayered programs in which scientists try to replicate the physics behind things such as rainfall, ocean currents and the melting of sea ice. Then, they try to estimate how emissions from smokestacks and auto tailpipes might alter those patterns in the future, as the effects of warmer temperatures echo through these complex and interrelated systems.

To check these programs' accuracy, scientists plug in data from previous years to see if the model's predictions match what really happened.

But these models still have the same caveat as other computer-generated futures. They are man-made, so their results are shaped by human judgement.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/05/AR2010040503722.html
Posted by: SBT

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 07/04/2010 13:26

So once again the claims that millions are being spent to refute the nonsense being spuiked by those who wish to enforce a breathing tax on us when they spend billions to try and flim flam the general public hey? Thats got to be a very fair news story now doesn't it? Not.
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 08/04/2010 09:13

Earth orbital changes connected to climate change, geologist finds

A geologist from UC Santa Barbara has done an analysis of the past 1.2 million years and discovered a pattern connecting Earth's regular orbital cycles with the planet's climate change.

Lorraine Lisiecki made her discovery when she examined sediment cores from the ocean from around 57 different world locations. Analysing ocean sediment cores scientists can chart Earth's climate dating back millions of years.

The Earth's orbit around the Sun changes its shape, or eccentricity, every 100,000 years, becoming either more round or more elliptical. This is a related characteristic to the 41,000-year axis cycle of the Earth.

Earth's glacial periods also happen every 100,000 years and what Lisiecki found is that the timing of the glaciations and the changes in Earth's eccentricity actually coincide.

"The clear correlation between the timing of the change in orbit and the change in the Earth's climate is strong evidence of a link between the two," Lisiecki stated. It is not likely that these two events are not related, she added.

Another unexpected correlation that Lisiecki found is that the stronger glacial periods occurred with the weakest eccentricity changes, while stronger eccentricity changes brought weaker glaciations. The geologist says that this could mean the Earth's climate has an internal instability besides the orbit change sensitivity.

Lisiecki found that the changes in climate over the past million years seem to be due to complicated interactions between climate system parts. These parts consist of the two orbital systems of eccentricity and axis, as well as a third orbital system that involves a change in the orientation of the axis rotation, or "precession".

http://www.examiner.com/x-6503-Ft-Lauderdale-Science-News-Examiner~y2010m4d6-Earth-orbital-changes-connected-to-climate-change-geologist-finds
Posted by: Simmosturf

Re: Interesting news articles about AGW - Archive - 13/04/2010 19:42

Struth!!!!

Al Gore Traitor Confronted on Climategate in Chicago!! MUST SEE!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDSFHrPivp8
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